HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » Impeachment will not remo...

Sat May 25, 2019, 02:40 PM

Impeachment will not remove Trump from office.

The Constitution provides (Section 3, Clause 6) The Senate shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments. When sitting for that Purpose, they shall be on Oath or Affirmation. When the President of the United States is tried, the Chief Justice shall preside: And no Person shall be convicted without the Concurrence of two thirds of the Members present.

An impeachment trial is purely a matter for the Senate, and is not subject (at all) to judicial supervision or review: Nixon v United States

If the courts reviewed the actions of the Senate in order to determine whether that body “tried” an impeached official, it is difficult to see how the Senate would be “functioning . . . independently and without assistance or interference”... Judicial involvement in impeachment proceedings, even if only for purposes of judicial review, is counterintuitive be- cause it would eviscerate the “important constitutional check” placed on the Judiciary by the Framers.

McConnell is no more obliged to hold an impeachment trial than conduct confirmation hearings. If Trump was impeached Mitch would say, 'let the people decide' and defer it (at least) to the GE.

EDIT: I favor impeachment. A refusal of the GOP Senate to hold a trial would provide an fine basis for the 2020 campaign, particularly the Senate campaign. What my OP is saying is that 'barring' misadventure, we will be facing Tump.

26 replies, 1563 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 26 replies Author Time Post
Reply Impeachment will not remove Trump from office. (Original post)
crazytown May 2019 OP
beachbum bob May 2019 #1
crazytown May 2019 #10
Fiendish Thingy May 2019 #2
crazytown May 2019 #3
MFM008 May 2019 #8
crazytown May 2019 #11
Fiendish Thingy May 2019 #20
crazytown May 2019 #25
wryter2000 May 2019 #4
Chin music May 2019 #7
Fiendish Thingy May 2019 #21
wryter2000 May 2019 #22
Chin music May 2019 #6
lark May 2019 #5
StarfishSaver May 2019 #9
crazytown May 2019 #14
sop May 2019 #12
wryter2000 May 2019 #24
standingtall May 2019 #13
qazplm135 May 2019 #16
emmaverybo May 2019 #17
shockey80 May 2019 #15
uponit7771 May 2019 #23
tymorial May 2019 #18
crazytown May 2019 #19
JustFiveMoreMinutes May 2019 #26

Response to crazytown (Original post)

Sat May 25, 2019, 02:42 PM

1. Makes a great PR campaign for 2020. We outnumber GOP and our anger is

 

only building. Make GOP defend trump...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to beachbum bob (Reply #1)

Sat May 25, 2019, 02:51 PM

10. An excellent basis for a Senate Campaign indeed.

I am (strongly) in favor of impeachment. The point of the OP is that, barring misadventure, we are going to facing Trump in 2020.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to crazytown (Original post)

Sat May 25, 2019, 02:43 PM

2. Your point?

Are you suggesting Dems not use every weapon in their arsenal to the fullest of their majority power, to defend the Constitution and the Rule of Law?

Because that would be cowardly defeatism.

The Constitution can’t wait until 2020.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Fiendish Thingy (Reply #2)

Sat May 25, 2019, 02:46 PM

3. My point is Trump is going to the polls in 2020.

Talk about the impeachment hearings affecting the outcome in the Senate is nonsense. There will not be a Senate trial.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to crazytown (Reply #3)

Sat May 25, 2019, 02:49 PM

8. If he steals it again?

Where is the remedy in that?
Where is congressional duty?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MFM008 (Reply #8)

Sat May 25, 2019, 02:54 PM

11. If he steals it again

and the House, and the Senate, the 'American Experiment' is over. Those around the world who have wanted to see the Republic fail since the 18th Century will finally get their wish.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to crazytown (Reply #3)

Sat May 25, 2019, 03:58 PM

20. Did we know there would be a D-Day after Pearl Harbor?

That is not an excuse not to fight with everything we’ve got, instead of waiting for November 2020.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Fiendish Thingy (Reply #20)

Sat May 25, 2019, 04:21 PM

25. Sigh

The OP says I favor impeachment

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Fiendish Thingy (Reply #2)

Sat May 25, 2019, 02:47 PM

4. Impeachment without conviction

does nothing to protect the Constitution. Impeachment that results in Trump losing the election does at least something. Removal from office is "consequences" for his crimes. If he remains in office, he continues to erode the rule of law.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to wryter2000 (Reply #4)


Response to wryter2000 (Reply #4)

Sat May 25, 2019, 04:00 PM

21. Impeachment, Regardless of the Senate's actions is essential

Doing nothing (simply waiting for the 2020 election is doing nothing), does not protect the Constitution and is the same as surrendering.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Fiendish Thingy (Reply #21)

Sat May 25, 2019, 04:11 PM

22. No one is saying do nothing

Do what we're doing now. Multiple investigations that can lead to impeachment when it will have the most impact. During the election, not now. We don't even have evidence of all his crimes yet.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Fiendish Thingy (Reply #2)


Response to crazytown (Original post)

Sat May 25, 2019, 02:48 PM

5. But what a powerful advertisement.

Even though he has the majority in the Senaste, Mitch McConnell knows that Donald Trump has committed high crimes and misdemeanors, it's detailed out in the Mueller report, but he's so afraid of the president of his party getting convicted for crimes he actually did commit, he refused to hold the trial. Who wouldn't want to clear their name - someone who was totally guilty and the people that colluded with him and Russia. McConnell will look so weak and by extension, so will drumpf, and that's the one thing he fears the most.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to crazytown (Original post)

Sat May 25, 2019, 02:50 PM

9. I think as long as he has the numbers to acquit, McConnell will hold a trial

so they can say "case closed" - and be right.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #9)

Sat May 25, 2019, 02:56 PM

14. Not I think with some Senators up for re-election in 2020

McConnell will want to provide them cover.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to crazytown (Original post)

Sat May 25, 2019, 02:54 PM

12. Or he'd hold some quicky trial, find Trump not guilty and declare the matter "finished"

Then the whole thing, including any unfinished investigations into Trump's finances and the Russia money trail, would be flushed down the memory hole, forgotten by the 2020 election season. Trump would go out on the campaign trail braying he's been declared "innocent," Barr's "investigation into the investigation" (Trump's pogrom of retribution against his "treasonous" political opponents) would be in full swing, and corporate media would cover nothing else.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sop (Reply #12)

Sat May 25, 2019, 04:15 PM

24. Amen

Impeach Trump now, and it's "all behind me" by election time.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to crazytown (Original post)

Sat May 25, 2019, 02:55 PM

13. Impeachment will not remove Trump he should still be impeached

The three men took on leading roles at the Constitutional Convention almost as soon as it convened on May 25, 1787. In the first week, Randolph, the 33-year-old Virginia governor, introduced the Virginia Plan, written by Madison, which became the starting point for the new national government. Mason, one of Virginia’s richest planters and a major framer of his home state’s new constitution, was the first delegate to argue that the government needed a check on the executive’s power. “Some mode of displacing an unfit magistrate” was necessary, he argued on June 2, without “making the Executive the mere creature of the Legislature.” After a short debate, the convention agreed to the language proposed in the Virginia Plan: the executive would “be removable on impeachment and conviction of malpractice or neglect of duty” – a broad standard that the delegates would later rewrite.

Mason, Madison, and Randolph all spoke up to defend impeachment on July 20, after Charles Pinckney of South Carolina and Gouverneur Morris of Pennsylvania moved to strike it. “[If the president] should be re-elected, that will be sufficient proof of his innocence,” Morris argued. “[Impeachment] will render the Executive dependent on those who are to impeach.”

“Shall any man be above justice?” Mason asked. “Shall that man be above it who can commit the most extensive injustice?” A presidential candidate might bribe the electors to gain the presidency, Mason suggested. “Shall the man who has practiced corruption, and by that means procured his appointment in the first instance, be suffered to escape punishment by repeating his guilt?”

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/inside-founding-fathers-debate-over-what-constituted-impeachable-offense-180965083/

Looks like the argument that impeachment should not be pursued because the Senate wont convict or that reelection would exonerate an impeached President was shot down at the constitutional convention in Philadelphia.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to standingtall (Reply #13)

Sat May 25, 2019, 02:59 PM

16. and yet in practice

it's never worked...and the threat of it only worked once.

Republicans win as often as they do because at the end of the day, they sacrifice "principles" for power.

We get so stuck on principles that we often forego power.

I don't think impeachment is going to ultimately be anything other than a net negative politically.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to qazplm135 (Reply #16)

Sat May 25, 2019, 03:11 PM

17. Bears repeating: "We get so stuck on principles that we often forego power. ". nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to crazytown (Original post)

Sat May 25, 2019, 02:57 PM

15. I don't fucking care what the Republicans do in the senate.

 

Impeach that fucking asshole. If the Democrats do not impeach Trump they will be breaking their oath of office.

Once again, all I see and hear is fear.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to shockey80 (Reply #15)

Sat May 25, 2019, 04:15 PM

23. +1,

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to crazytown (Original post)

Sat May 25, 2019, 03:20 PM

18. What you say may be true but quite frankly it's irrelevant

Congress has a responsibility. Each member takes and accepts the same oath:

I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God.


It doesnt matter whether or not the Republicans will abandoned their duty. Their failure to act would be a broken promise to the American people. And while I am certain many of their supporters do not care or worse want them to violate their oath, we cannot and should not consider political fallout when it comes to defending our country and constitution. I would hope our representatives and senators accept this as well.

The president has concluded with foreign governments to subvert elections and to destroy our democratic process. He and members of his cabinet have acted to obstruct justice, to libel and slander those who are duty bound to investigate and to actively ignore constitutional mandates. The White House must be held to account for these actions. It is the responsibility of all members of Congress to ensure that corrective action be taken. This is true even if the House stands alone in impeaching the President and members of his cabinet.

This is not politics. This is duty.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to tymorial (Reply #18)

Sat May 25, 2019, 03:22 PM

19. I favor impeachment.

All I am saying is there will not be a Senate trial.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to crazytown (Original post)

Sat May 25, 2019, 05:17 PM

26. 1st - Amendment 25 * 2nd - Resignation * 3rd - It would be disingenuous to not discuss impeachment

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread