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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsPelosi on impeachment: if the Senate exonerates Trump
that will basically free him from further prosecution down the road.
Therefore they must have an ironclad case.
(Jimmy Kimmel interview.)
dalton99a
(81,468 posts)live love laugh
(13,104 posts)ancianita
(36,048 posts)It will be broadcast across the country. The Truth will hit them in the face, if not their minds and hearts.
The Truth will certainly hit Americans in the face. When that happens, the votes election will be a damn burst.
I believe the Amash "crack" in their wall will remind them of their oath, and cause a number to vote to convict.
wasupaloopa
(4,516 posts)It amazes me the number of people here who cant see the forest for the trees.
Impeachment will not punish trump and it will not remove him from office.
ancianita
(36,048 posts)That's the way the rest of the country can stop the right wing cult politics you're referring to.
wasupaloopa
(4,516 posts)he said he could shoot someone and not lose his base.
ancianita
(36,048 posts)Last edited Fri May 31, 2019, 02:19 PM - Edit history (1)
Only 19.5% of America voted for him. The rest might not have cared, but now they might. Allow voters to evolve. You still quote Trump as if you believe him. Don't believe he's powerful just because his base believes in that illusion.
The risk is to NOT impeach, THEN lose more votes for Democrats because of it.
People hate when we take an oath to protect and defend the Constitution and then don't do it. And we'll be proving that they are right -- that our party is the cowardly party even when we're in The Right.
This is about country over party, was.
Impeachment is the hill I'm willing to die on, and America should see that about House Democrats.
If you and others give up on this, we will never recover and neither will this country. It will be just the way the Russians want it -- a failed former democracy.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)not whether.
As for dying on a hill of Democratic goals and ideals, your choice, but then how do you feel the day after? You wouldn't really be dead, of course. And neither would Trump.
So, it's the day after: How are you feeling as Republicans and media are all cheering Trump's "complete exoneration" by the senate? When everyone, including right here, are characterizing the Democrats as corrupt and incredibly incompetent losers and launching what will be months of analyses of our mistakes? And of course when the media are leaping to claim the 2020 election is now the Republicans' to lose?
Righteous? Satisfied that we died for the highest principles?
ancianita
(36,048 posts)we'll know we did the best we could. That nothing Mueller or Democrats or the Intelligence Community did was fabrication, hoax, witch hunt, conspiracy or fiction in living up to their oaths in the reality we live.
Fabrication, hoax, witch hunt, conspiracy and fiction piled on fiction are the machinery of Putin's Russia strategy and tactics to destroy Western democracy.
Let's remember, the Founders have been the standing American models for any of us who swear to die on the hill of those highest principles.
Let 45 and Russian newsfeeds crow about exoneration. Their propaganda will damn them; they will be hoist by their own petard as Americans hold to what they saw and heard. That is all we can reasonably expect.
How could anyone not see the last two years as a time of the greatest threat to democracy in their lifetime, and just stand by to watch and kibitz about what happens. I can't.
I called Speaker Pelosi and Reps Bobby Rush and Chuy Garcia earlier this am to explain everything I've said about the positive effect that even failed impeachment would have on Americans who would know the truth that's been hidden from them, and that The People's House would be seen as both strong and truthful in defending the Constitution. That impeachment would gain them votes, and failing to impeach would cost them votes. I didn't say it would lose them a lot more than votes, though.
And yes, I did tell each of them that this impeachment and trial must be the hill The People's House should win or die on.
I won't feel righteous, even though we'll have been In The Right, because I don't think righteousness is conscious, or has much to do with just doing what it takes to save rule of law.
If they impeach, win or lose, yes, I'll be satisfied.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)I think we can only "afford" so many fails, though, and I worry that we're running out of chances. 2016 was devastating. The increasingly bold and fascistic right obviously are planning never to be called to account for their crimes, which really scares me.
ancianita
(36,048 posts)The West, led by us and the EU, cannot go on like this.
Merkel spoke at Harvard about this stuff for a reason. Her allies are with Americans, not their cowardly leaders. She knows that unified numbers are our best defense.
Proud Liberal Dem
(24,412 posts)Everybody will also get to hear Republicans twist themselves into all kinds of shapes and sizes on the public record to defend Trump in the House and Senate- and we might manage to at least get a couple to vote with us, bolstering the credibility of the charges.
notdarkyet
(2,226 posts)ancianita
(36,048 posts)together" talk.
Here are House of Representatives' phone numbers by state, and you can usually get a person to talk about this to when you call.
https://www.house.gov/representatives#state-idaho
Nevermypresident
(781 posts)ancianita
(36,048 posts)pnwmom
(108,977 posts)Chin music
(23,002 posts)Just what DU needs, to talk each other out of impeaching the dirtiest president in American history.
ancianita
(36,048 posts)Chin music
(23,002 posts)Reagan killed my future, Bush took my home and wife and Dump has killed my spirit.
I look forward to the end.
MythosMaster
(445 posts)Chin music
(23,002 posts)It's easy to be mean. Much harder to be nice. No giving up.
Chin music
(23,002 posts)It does seem awful. Ifor one am so glad you are here. Keep your chin up.
Don't let them win.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!
Eliot Rosewater
(31,109 posts)I have been trying to get the attention of people for a long time about TWO people who are NOT who they say they are, one is very obvious, the other not as much.
In the case of RUMP and the GOP they are our ENEMY now, they are the ENEMY of the human race and we will fight
notdarkyet
(2,226 posts)ancianita
(36,048 posts)JustAnotherGen
(31,818 posts)45 is the result of a 40 year plan.
A few days ago McConnell was smugly telling folks he would seat a new SCOTUS Justice of one died in the next year and a half.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)Not to put things in writing. Bet trump arranged collusion with Russia during his late night cell phone calls. Not traced not recorded.
lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)Brainfodder
(6,423 posts)Covering up? At the very least, not seriously considering what's good for the nation, that's been clear for a long time? [infrastructure]
We are full circle on women's reproductive rights even.
Progressing we are not!
fescuerescue
(4,448 posts)Really nothing is secret at this point.
If the average DU'er can see that Trump is guilty, then the people in power just down the street have seen it too. Just earlier and in more detail
It's just that some choose to pretend it's not serious for political reasons.
JI7
(89,248 posts)or other areas will go after him on his many other crimes.
live love laugh
(13,104 posts)Successfully prosecute him if the Senate exonerates him. Basically the exoneration would be used to fight any prosecutions all the way to the stacked Supreme Court.
dixiegrrrrl
(60,010 posts)I don't think that any House charges would include that, since the House, and Senate, will be dealing with Federal high crimes and etc.
The State won't be pressing any charges until after he is no longer in the WH. Whole different ball game.
empedocles
(15,751 posts)former9thward
(31,997 posts)The Statute of Limitations would have run by then. Do you really think prosecutors can sit back and wait years to charge someone? Trump has been doing business in NY for almost 50 years. If there were financial crimes why haven't they done anything to date? Do NY prosecutors just sit and wait until someone of the opposite party is president and then they investigate? I think more of them then that.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"If there were financial crimes why haven't they done anything to date?"
"I think more of them then that."
Obviously not. If your unsupported presumption is nothing has been done, predicated wholly on whether you see evidence of that or not yourself, then no... you don;t think more of them than that.
dixiegrrrrl
(60,010 posts)since fake taxes were reported every year.
federal criminal limitations is 6 years.
New York state has an exception to their 6 year limitations:
If state tax auditors were to determine that the Trumps committed fraud, they could go after them for back taxes, interest and penalties.
https://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/politics/albany/2018/10/03/new-york-trump-tax-fraud/1509204002/
since I was not a party to the NY state decisions of who and when to investigate anyone, I have no idea why, over the course of 40 some years, various state prosecutors did/did not charge anyone. It might be possible he WAS charged, at some point in the past, and he and his lawyers settled, quietly. That's his style, "protect the brand at all costs"
What matters to me is what is happening now, and how it best can be stopped.
former9thward
(31,997 posts)But I sure you believe that since you are posting it. Federal law requires all presidents to be audited every year. But apparently the career auditors are being "quiet" and covering it up. OK....
PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)Impeachment is not a criminal process.
Impeachment does not invoke "double jeopardy" issues.
tymorial
(3,433 posts)It's not so much about impeachment, it's the mandatory trial by the Senate if he is impeached. They will protect Trump and completely exonerate him. Pelosi requires incontrovertible proof of Trump's guilt that the Senate cannot possibly ignore.
hedda_foil
(16,373 posts)If impeachment inquiry doesnt begin soon, the House Democrats will be seen as even weaker than usual and they will be culpable of aiding and abetting the fall of our democracy.
Tertullian
(46 posts)" Impeachment is not a criminal process.
Impeachment does not invoke "double jeopardy" issues. "
I'm no legal expert on the subject, but, I am confused WRT what Nancy means here.
I don't think that Impeachment that results in a favorable outcome for a President
triggers the "double jeopardy" rule of criminal law.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)And NY has just changed its double jeopardy laws so that he could be prosecuted with NY crimes even if they were similar to Federal crimes. And he could also be prosecuted for specifically NY crimes. I bet he evaded NY state income taxes, for example.
malaise
(268,967 posts)I want justice - let the investigations leading to impeachment continue - there are cracks showing now.
Nevermypresident
(781 posts)NY State is not going to be charging conman with obstruction or witness tampering with the Mueller investigation or violation of the enolument clause, for instance.
larwdem
(758 posts)did any president get prosecuted after they left office ??????
Bush II,, Ragan,, Nixon ..
I call Bullshit !!
live love laugh
(13,104 posts)InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)at140
(6,110 posts)Bush-43 was clearly guilty in invading Iraq without concrete evidence of WMD's.
Nixon clearly obstructed justice and engaged in coverup.
standingtall
(2,785 posts)in office and there is no such thing as an ironclad case. There is no evidence that can be uncovered that will get 20 republican senators to vote to impeach him. Refusing to impeach him because we don't have the numbers in the Senate is rolling over for republicans.
wasupaloopa
(4,516 posts)standingtall
(2,785 posts)Other than looking like we are afraid to stand up to Trump and the republican Senate?
wasupaloopa
(4,516 posts)Those not for impeachment now have stated their reasons.
Snake Plissken
(4,103 posts)Nobody wants feckless submissive wimps representing them. If the House does not impeach Trump they are basically telling America that Democrats would rather serve Trump and the GOP than the people who voted for them.
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)The same argument was made in 07 when Pelosi refused to impeach Bush. All the impeachment hawks then said it would kill the Dems in the 08 elections. But the Dems picked up seats in both Houses and won the Presidency instead.
People may not want "feckless submissive wimps" representing them, but they don't want mindless ideologues either. They want smart and strategic representatives who will actually accomplish something and not waste time tilting at windmills.
Snake Plissken
(4,103 posts)Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)The historical evidence proves me correct.
Snake Plissken
(4,103 posts)Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)You missed the point.
empedocles
(15,751 posts)traitortrump seems very aware of the stock markets and social moods. trump's sponsoring huge corporate buy back schemes have this in play.
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)IF the economy doesn't tank between now and the start of impeachment hearings, Americans may not be invested in the fight and turn on the Democrats for it. Bill Clinton wasn't saved because the GOP overreached and impeached for a stupid blowjob - he was saved by an economy that allowed Americans to look the other way.
I don't know how many times I've heard apolitical coworkers (not Trump supporters - but people who just aren't engaged in the process) tell me that, "hey, as long as my 401K does well...I don't care what he does!" and that was the same damn mindset we saw in the 90s.
The fact is, Bill Clinton likely obstructed justice and perjured himself in the Lewinsky scandal. The investigation was bullshit but the charges ... really weren't. But because the country was doing so well, Bill Clinton was largely successful in framing the issue that he was working and Republicans were hell-bent on obstructing (ironically). Trump is attempting a similar argument.
But had the economy gone into a deep recession in the late 90s, sympathy for Clinton becomes less and less and support for his impeachment becomes more and more.
Then the polls shift dramatically. Who knows how things look in 1998 with an unemployment rate of 7% and 40,000 jobs lost a month.
If the economy continues to remain strong (I have my doubts), Americans may just burn out on the whole impeachment thing and give Trump a pass like they did Clinton.
empedocles
(15,751 posts)'The economy' is often seen as an election shibboleth. And, I'm sure that trump himself is acutely aware of that - and has prepared well with his corporate buyback scheme scam, which has provided remarkable support for the stock averages . . . so far.
Jobs, conquest booty, sense of power and relative economic well-being, were the bedrock of the Third Reich.
[D.I., meant this to respond directly to your most recent post which is obvious from the text. Sorry]
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)instead of blind partisans wasting time, and taxpayer money, on a useless enterprise.
ancianita
(36,048 posts)If they put up with the waste of time, taxpayer money and uselessness of the ACA's "repeal and replace" bullshit, they won't care about all that one way or another.
All they'll see is that Democrats DID something or DID NOTHING.
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)in your bubble think.
ancianita
(36,048 posts)Ten months before that, an NBC/WSJ Poll claimed that "41 percent of Americans believe there is enough reason for Congress to hold impeachment hearings, even before the conclusion of special counsel Robert Mueller's investigation. The poll found that 70 percent of Democrats, 40 percent of independents and even 7 percent of Republicans are in favor of the hearings.
... 73 percent saying they would "definitely" vote for the Democratic candidate. Additionally, just 47 percent of white voters without a college degree said they would support Trump in 2020, down 19 points from the support he received in 2016's election..."
May 9, Reuters reports "The number of Americans who said President Donald Trump should be impeached rose 5 percentage points to 45 percent since mid-April...
The poll also found that 32 percent agreed that Congress treated the Mueller report fairly, while 47 percent disagreed.
Trumps popularity was unchanged from a similar poll that ran last week - 39 percent of adults said they approved of Trump, while 55 percent said they disapproved."
Somewhere in there is what Americans think over the last year; somewhere there is a majority, and votes.
You might have asked how I can speak about "most" Americans' thinking (which could change in the next eighteen months). You don't agree, prove me mistaken. You don't like my opinion, use the Ignore button.
Don't presume to tell me I'm in a bubble.
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)where the top issues were Healthcare and the economy, not the impeachment of Trump.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/244367/top-issues-voters-healthcare-economy-immigration.aspx
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/elections/midterm-exit-polls-2018-n932516
Plus none of what you posted proves your assertion: "They see inaction after a 2-yr investigation as WEAK."
And you are in a bubble.
ancianita
(36,048 posts)Everything I posted points to your saying I don't know what Americans think. Different polls show different propensities in Americans, which added up to a House that will begin impeachment proceedings.
I knew you'd say that my effort proves nothing. Link your claim about the reasons they voted. Tell it to the pollers who gave reasons different from yours.
Your whole tear-down negativity is weak.
Your bubble accusation is weak.
You're all ad hominem.
You've got no proof that any numbers of Americans equal to those I presented think the opposite of me.
So don't post any more bubble bullshit at me.
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)that "They see inaction after a 2-yr investigation as WEAK"
Either do so or admit that you can't.
And sorry you are in a bubble. Sorry that you can't see that.
ancianita
(36,048 posts)So I'll concede your point against my unproven argument that the public sees Dems as weak. But we'll see what they say about Dems as the impeachment inquiry goes forward.
I do, however, see such opinions that "Dems are weak" all over social media daily.
In the absence of supportive polls, I can live with that correction.
Hints at how Americans see Democrats are in a few recent articles.
Similarly, The New Republics Matt Ford insisted, Nothing could make Democrats look weaker than spending the next two years warning that Trump is an existential threat to American democracy, then telling voters that its not worth the trouble to impeach him.
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2019/05/27/the_political_case_for_impeachment_doesnt_hold_up_140425.html
And from Pew Research polls.
https://www.people-press.org/2019/01/18/trump-begins-third-year-with-low-job-approval-and-doubts-about-his-honesty/
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)that support your original argument.
ancianita
(36,048 posts)being the only pollster with large enough sampling that can prove "most."
"Argument" only exists when two sides give proof.
Your "not good enough" claim is bad faith, no-effort novice challenge.
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)And you conceded in you last post: "So I'll concede your point against my unproven argument that the public sees Dems as weak."
Don't renege now.
ancianita
(36,048 posts)ing.
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)standingtall
(2,785 posts)and I don't think no member of congress is. Authoritarian arguments don't work on me. Trump pretty much tells his base he knows everything better than anyone and therefore he should not be questioned. You think Democrats should start behaving like the republican base when it comes to our elected representatives?
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)No one said that she's infallible. Straw man...
Here is the question again...
Everyone is fallible - so does that mean no one can know what they are doing?
Yet another straw man. No one here said that she was the boss of you. Her experience and track record, not to mention the confidence of her peers goes to her being the one most capable to do the job, and she doesn't demand blind faith, like other politicians.
False dillema AND attacking a strawman - So... If someone thinks that Pelosi is qualified to be making these decisions then they are behaving like the Republican base. No other options - if someone disagrees with you, then they are "no different that the Republican base?"
Talk about authoritarian thinking... look in a mirror.
What is it about Madame Speaker that gets under your skin? Is it because she doesn't cower when men say that they find her unlikeable? That she knows what she's good at and doesn't apologize for it? That she is good at her job which doesn't validate your feelings about her?
standingtall
(2,785 posts)I never used such language you tried to put words in my mouth I never spoke. Who goes around saying "I'm President and their not"? Oh yeah Trump does. Pretty much saying sense I'm President they should shut up. Same I see here sense Pelosi is speaker of the house those who disagree with her decisions are being told to shut up in a round about way.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Your words:
in office and there is no such thing as an ironclad case. There is no evidence that can be uncovered that will get 20 republican senators to vote to impeach him. Refusing to impeach him because we don't have the numbers in the Senate is rolling over for republicans.
First she didn't say that. She said there is a "school of thought" about that. I think actually knowing what you are ranting about before you rant is helpful.
Second - That's saying that she doesn't know what she's doing in a round about way. You start out with "bologna," yes? That's in response to something that you thought she said (but didn't) then went on to talk about how she is "rolling over."
Still want to stick with denying you doubted her judgement?
I never used such language you tried to put words in my mouth I never spoke.
See what I did there? What's good for the goose...
Are you going to answer the question "What will impeachment bring us?"
standingtall
(2,785 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)So, yes, that's exactly what I thought.
Are you seriously still trying to that reacting to something with "bologna!" is your way of expressing confidence in someone's judgement and not dismissing it?
standingtall
(2,785 posts)copy and paste.
that will basically free him from further prosecution down the road.
Therefore they must have an ironclad case.
(Jimmy Kimmel interview.)
That statement is bologna. The Senate voting to acquit Trump does not forbid criminal charges from being brought against Trump when he is no longer in office.
As you said that's not what Pelosi said herself. What she said was there is a school of thought that thinks that way.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Are you now saying that you were wrong, because now you have been corrected and realize that's not what she said?
Are you admitting that you were mistaken on what she said, when you called it "bologna" and don't see insult her judgement as "bologna" any longer?
Any apologies coming for accusing people here of " using authoritarian tactics in her name" when you were being corrected, or called on straw men defenses?
Any apologies coming for accusing others of "putting words in your mouth" when did the very same?
ancianita
(36,048 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)But do tell us what you know about what consequences impeachment will bring. Or you can just own it and say, "I don't know. But anything Madame Speaker does irritates me, so that must mean she's authortarian, unqualified and just wrong. "
We'll keep in mind that you, like Pelosi, are fallible. She just has way more experience and knowledge of procedure than you do.
standingtall
(2,785 posts)and so can Pelosi's. I never said everything Pelosi does irritates me and I never said she was unqualified either again that is you trying to put words in mouth. Btw I don't think Pelosi herself would approve of authoritarian tactics being used on her behalf. So no I don't belief she is a authoritarian, but authoritarian tactics have been used on her behalf on this discussion board.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)No one said that you couldn't have an opinion.
Just that it was an opinion, not a fact, and in all probability not as educated as Pelosi's opinions on impeachment. You said "Bologna!"about what you thought she said... is that how you say that someone has good judgement?
Someone pointing out the flaws and inconsistencies in your rants is "authoritarian tactics being used on her behalf on this discussion board?"
No one is saying they are the boss of you. I never said I was the boss of you and I never said I'm "working on behalf of Pelosi" either again that is you trying to put words in mouth.
See what I did there?
standingtall
(2,785 posts)that's you trying to read someones mind. The fact is it was stated by the op rather or not I thought Pelosi said it herself you don't know. I didn't care one way or the other I responding to what was written. You've built this entire conversation on nothing but strawmen.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)So now you're trying to wiggle out of being called out on being mistaken by implyng that you 'maybe knew" the OP was wrong.
"Bologna" is responding to what was in the OP in a negative. Nice try at denying it. Didn't work.
You are too embarassed to admit you were wrong, that you really don't like Madame Speaker, or that you do everything that you complain others do, and are working yourself into knots trying to act like you had the high ground. One is so much more credible if one just owns up to when they've been called out...
standingtall
(2,785 posts)Where do you get that I really don't like Speaker Pelosi from? Because I disagree with her on this issue that= I don't like her?
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Response to ehrnst (Reply #243)
standingtall This message was self-deleted by its author.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)who might affect the impeachment.
And two, he couldn't go into the election saying it had all been a witch hunt, and the proof was that the Dems didn't even try to impeach him.
We wouldn't have thrown impeachment away as a tool. If we wouldn't impeach a President like Trump, who is it reserved for?
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)Fortunately, Pelosi is politically astute and will soon surely move to start impeachment proceedings, as the right choice to guarantee victory in 2020.
Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... including democrats not winning control of congressional houses in 98.
They won seats but Clinton's popularity post impeachment didn't win them control of anything, Clinton was relatively popular among republicans.
whopis01
(3,511 posts)The impeachment proceeding were started in December 1998, after the election.
Saying that Clintons popularity post impeachment didnt win [Democrats] control of anything while referring to an election that happened prior to impeachment is nonsensical.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... and gore lost.
And Democrats didn't win control of either congressional houses
ancianita
(36,048 posts)samnsara
(17,622 posts)..the threat of impeachment is always looming. With that gone.. then what?
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)At this point it's the OP's interpretation.
leftstreet
(36,107 posts)madamesilverspurs
(15,800 posts).
Recursion
(56,582 posts)rufus dog
(8,419 posts)If he get's re-elected then the US Democracy has lost. In fact all Western Democrocies will have been lost. tRump may be the demarcation line, but I would argue that it was lost in 2008 when 60 millions americans (non capitalization intentional) saw fit to vote for McCain/Palin.
So we either make 2020 a vote for Democracy and hope, or take it to them. I say fuck them and take it directly to them. FUCK EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THESE tRUMP VOTERS.
At some point we need to fight, it should have been years ago, no more time to wait.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)but nice try. There's no vaccine or cure for Dunning-Kruger, certainly not information or reason.
Downtown Hound
(12,618 posts)Trump is already unpopular. Impeachment could air his dirty laundry out to the point where it would be very hard for even his die hard cultists to defend him, and cost him even more votes. Also, it then have the effect of making it look like Republicans in Congress were protecting a traitor and a criminal. That might not go over for them to well in the next election.
Chin music
(23,002 posts)that if he get's acquitted he wins again? He won w foreign help the LAST time. His base is the 1% and the deplorables make up about 1 in 4 people. That doesn't sound like re-election to me. I dunno. Not sure how acquitting him makes more Democrats vote for him.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)It might even get him to positive territory
Chin music
(23,002 posts)the next admin a BUDGET SURPLUS, despite the impeachment.
Trumps no Clinton. (People liked Bill Clinton, and still do.) Trumps not gaining any votes at all.
There's absolutely no comparison to a BJ, and asking for and getting, a hostile foreign nation to cheat for you. The comparison doesn't seem apt or instructive to me, I guess.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Barring a downturn, he'll be on track to have about 10 million jobs created during his first term. And the unemployment rate is almost a full percent lower. We can't run this race on the economy.
Chin music
(23,002 posts)It's Obamas economy anyway. Anyone can take credit for someone elses economy. PS...have you been to the grocery store lately? Or any store like Home Depot or Lowes? Prices shooting up. That's not a good economy to me. But, I suppose if you listen to fox, they'll tell you anything.
Response to live love laugh (Original post)
Post removed
emmaverybo
(8,144 posts)proceedings, and then, at this time no prospect that the Senate will impeach.
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)When Pelosi took the impeachment of Bush off the table. Is was a ridiculous BS argument then, as proved by the results of the 08 election, and it is a ridiculous BS argument now.
SCVDem
(5,103 posts)another violent civil(?) war is coming?
Celerity
(43,334 posts)to a possible succession movement by some Blue states starting in the 2030's or so.
1 Trump is re-elected
2 We fail in 2020 and 2022 to regain the Senate
2 Because of those 2 things, Breyer, RGB and Sotomayor (severe and worsening diabetes) retire or pass away between now and 2024
3 Clarence Thomas Retires
4 The SCOTUS is now 8-1 HARD RW for what is likely 15, 20 years (even if we claw back a seat or two it is still RW)
5 We fail to expand the House to over 1000 (which would semi-fix the Electoral College and give the big states a fairer amount of Reps in the House as well)
6 We fail to take back a large amount of state assemblies in 2020 (a census year), thus allowing the Rethugs to further gerrymander at every level, with a friendly RW SCOTUS to back them up
7 That 2020 Census is rigged via the citizenship question and other shenanigans, thus under-counting a massive part of Democratic strongholds and states
8 Voter suppression speeds ahead and becomes even more widespread by the Rethugs
9 We fail to make PR and DC (and maybe even split California into 2 states) new states thus denying us 4 or 6 new Democratic Senators
10 By the mid 2030's 30% of the population will control 70% of the Senate seats (a 30% that is whiter, older, more Rethug, less-educated, more reactionary, more fundie xian than the other 70%)
11 After Roe v Wade is possibly overturned, the fundie Gilead-style RWers move on to try and make abortion EVERYWHERE in all 50 states completely illegal. Same for LGBTQ rights, etc etc etc. Complete roll-back of all civil rights gained post Brown v Board.
12 The economy blows out sometime in the next 5 years, college costs double by 2030, 203131 or so from their already insane costs now, and healthcare, via the private for-profit matrix is driven into the stratosphere cost-wise as well, all of this reeking havoc on the bottom 80 to 90%. Bankruptcies and defaults EXPLODE, but no relief given. Life becomes chattel debt slavery for tens upon tens of millions of Americans, more than likely well over 100 million. But because the Rethugs control most all federal power (or have enough numbers to obstruct), they block any attempts to fix it, and continue to block any repeals of the tax cuts, whilst also pushing the national debt to 35, 40 trillion and then slamming down the hammer on the entire social safety net, including SS, Medicare, Medicaid, etc etc, which are chainsawed.
13 California, Washington, Oregon, and other Blue states develop vast majorities, who seeing the perceived hopelessness of battling an ever more tyrannically theocratic and rapacious federal government, and facing the Feds stormtrooping in over abortion, LGBTQ, racial laws, etc etc and other civil rights that have been swept away by the pincer movement of a hard RW SOTUS and a Rethug Congress/POTUS/Federal Judiciary (and a state levels too in some cases) decide to say GOOD-BYE to the Union.
IF these dominoes all (or mostly all) fall, I do not see that outcome as being remotely hyperbolic in the slightest. All the potential prerequisites are already baked into the cake.
bearsfootball516
(6,377 posts)StevieM
(10,500 posts)The difference is that this time they have a Supreme Court that is pretty much done with democracy. I definitely see them striking down Obamacare, which will be the most activist ruling in the history of the court. It would basically say that anything that is too liberal in their minds can't be done.
What will happen if the Democrats expand the court? Or if they nullify all Trump appointments by legislation and replace them with Democrats? The GOP would not accept that as legitimate. And they would react with incredible violence.
The militia movement is growing and I expect it to explode when the GOP loses power for the first time after Trump. I could see them moving towards an end to democracy in the future, especially if they are denied the right to essentially govern after losing, kind like they are doing in Wisconsin.
SleeplessinSoCal
(9,112 posts)And a handful elsewhere?
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... double jeopardy iinm
Bettie
(16,095 posts)so he can be tried in federal criminal courts on these charges. All the Senate trial ultimately says is whether it is OK to do these things as president or not.
SleeplessinSoCal
(9,112 posts)McConnell proved that by saying he'd confirm SCOTUS pick in 2020.
Bettie
(16,095 posts)It's like they are all in a "worst person in the world" contest and all intent upon winning.
airmid
(500 posts)uponit7771
(90,335 posts)Rhiannon12866
(205,277 posts)https://www.democraticunderground.com/1017542749
Celerity
(43,334 posts)She was great EXCEPT for that stupid statement about the Senate acquitting would make him immune from post-presidency prosecution. I have no idea why she said that, she is far too intelligent to think that is actually the case. Especially on state charges etc etc.
Rhiannon12866
(205,277 posts)I'm in New York and the proactive AG that we elected is ready for Trump and they're busy passing new laws to make it easier to prosecute him!
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)no_hypocrisy
(46,088 posts)as the Oath of Office is administered to the Democrat replacing him on January 21, 2021.
sarabelle
(453 posts)W_HAMILTON
(7,864 posts)BeyondGeography
(39,370 posts)The excuses become more elaborate. Use your power. We dont need Republican permission to act. Put the ball in their court and the pressure on them.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)BeyondGeography
(39,370 posts)Duh.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)The ones you said are "becoming more elaborate"
Duh.
Is that clearer?
live love laugh
(13,104 posts)Celerity
(43,334 posts)leap willy-nilly straight to full-blown impeachment (up or down) hearings.
BeyondGeography
(39,370 posts)Public hearings to put a spotlight on Trumps criminality. Look at the impact Mueller made simply by restating what was in his written report.
Celerity
(43,334 posts)Even if he just sits there basically reads out the relevant parts of the report and briefly explains/gives context to them when he responds to questioning, that will be EXTREMELY powerful.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)ancianita
(36,048 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)BeyondGeography
(39,370 posts)RelativelyJones
(898 posts)Blues Heron
(5,931 posts)Her track record indicates she is willing to let enormous crimes completely slide.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)by her peers to lead them doesn't count as far as a track record is concerned.
Blues Heron
(5,931 posts)she let him slide.
Kaleva
(36,296 posts)Which did nothing in regards to charging Bush with commission of any crime.
Blues Heron
(5,931 posts)Celerity
(43,334 posts)precludes him from any future legal prosecution, post-presidency. That is simply not true at all. It also makes the fundamental mistake of characterising a Senate trial as a criminal justice/legal action, as if it were a court of law. It is NOT. It is a purely political action/trial. It has zero legally-binding affect on future criminal indictments, post-presidency. That fact is amplified even move if McTurtle holds a couple-days (or less) max kangaroo-court-style Senatorial trial that is in itself a pure cover-up. Hell, he may refuse to even hold the trial at all. THAT would explode in his face, and probably flip the Senate to us in 2020 hands-down.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)I haven't heard that.
RelativelyJones
(898 posts)Op left that part out.
Celerity
(43,334 posts)She is states the 'Trump wants to be impeached' meme and then leans into that school of thought to claim it has to be iron clad (meaning even Repugs will have to admit it) then shifts back to the Rethugs control the Senate (exact quote- 'completely in the pocket of Donald Trump') so no chance they will convict.
Right back to square one and the 'school of thought' is a key fulcrum for her reasoning.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)She stated that TRUMP knows that impeachment because he believes there is a "silver lining" in impeachment that he would be 'exonerated' by the Senate refusing to remove him, and that there is a "school of thought" that would question why they would need to charge POTUS with once he is no longer POTUS. They must have an ironclad case in order to render that 'school of thought' moot, and show that the crimes are serious enough to be relevant to pursue outside the context of the Oval Office, because the Senate will VOTE in his favor, guaranteed. Once that happens, the DOJ may just make another call on the constitutionality of prosecuting him, we don't know.
It has to involve more than just him requesting that people do things that would obstruct justice - he can say that "he didn't know," or I was just thinking out loud, I didn't mean for them to actually do it..." Like Cohen said, he talks in code to cover his ass, just like anyone in the Mob would. There have to be hard receipts, - documentation, witnesses who will cooperate, so he can't get away with saying, "I don't remember doing that."
That's what ironclad evidence is. That's why we need it in order to prevent anyone, even Barr, from saying that the crimes aren't relevant outside the Oval Office.
Celerity
(43,334 posts)anywhere remotely close to even a somewhat or almost 'ironclad' case, let alone a 100% airtight one. It will never happen, not with the wall of Trumpian obstruction and blockage we are facing.
I also stand by my positing that a purely political trial will have, at the end of the day, much of a lessening force on any future-forward prosecutions once Rump is out of office.
It is after all, only a 'school of thought'. That is framing being used to mitigate or rationalise what Pelosi said. It cannot be both a school of thought (which means there are others who think differently) and yet still ALSO be an ironclad truism, etched in stone as some sort of manifest destiny.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)I think that she is stating that "the school of thought" is out there, and needs to be taken into consideration and neutralized.
I don't think that anyone thinks a "100%" ironclad case is possible or necessary. I think that you read that into what she said. There are standards of evidence, and if the evidence meets those standards, that is what "ironclad" means. Emails, bank records, tax returns, depositions from witnesses, phone and travel records - all of those need to be in place and verified prior to making the case. That's just responsible investigating, and that's not going to happen overnight. Remember the woman who approached WAPO with a false story about Roy Moore molesting her in order to discredit WAPO's reporting on him? They didn't say "Well, there is no 100% ironclad way to prove someone is telling the truth if we weren't there to see it, so just go to press with this. Roy Moore is a bad guy, he needs to be stopped and that's the point." Instead, they did their due dillegence, checked out the woman's credibility, didn't rush to press, and that is what saved them from playing into the hands of bad actors. I expect no less from the House commitees doing their investigations, which we know are going to be targeted.
The opposite of "not having enough ironclad evidence" isn't "having 100% ironclad evidence." That's a false dichotomy, and I didn't see Pelosi stating that perfection must be reached, just that it be ironclad verified.
I'll leave that determination to one who knows far more than I do about proceedure, the possibility of the DOJ responding in that way, and that's Pelosi.
Celerity
(43,334 posts)here is the video
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)This is like people here ranting that Mueller declared that he personally thought it was unconstitutional to indict a sitting POTUS, so he wouldn't, when he was actually quoting DOJ policy.
Got to 6:48 in the video.
She didn't say what the OP claims. She stated that TRUMP knows that impeachment because he believes there is a "silver lining" in impeachment that he would be 'exonerated' by the Senate refusing to remove him, and that there is a "school of thought" that would question why they would need to charge POTUS with once he is no longer POTUS. They must have an ironclad case in order to render that 'school of thought' moot, and show that the crimes are serious enough to be relevant to pursue outside the context of the Oval Office. This it's more than just him talking out his ass when requested that people do things that would obstruct justice. Like Cohen said, he talks in code to cover his ass, just like anyone in the Mob would. There have to be hard receipts, so he can't get away with saying, "I don't remember doing that."
That's where the OP misunderstood.
Just as Mueller said it was a "longstanding DOJ policy" that indicting a sitting POTUS was deemed unconstitutional, not that it was unconsitutional.
Celerity
(43,334 posts)Beyond that, I have a basic question for you.
Do you support at least opening an impeachment enquiry? Not (obviously) jumping to full blown, up or down impeachment hearings, but simply opening an enquiry?
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Do I support Clarence Thomas being removed from SCOTUS? Damn straight. But do I support it happening right now, during a Trump administration where he can be replaced with a younger version of himself - no.
I said the same thing to people who were angry that congress isn't impeaching Kavanaugh, because some were talking about doing that if we took back the House - we would have to be crazy to do that while Trump is in office, because he'd be replaced with a clone - probably a woman, and they would have a field day calling Democrats who challenged her in hearings sexist, just like they called Clarence Thomas' hearings "a high tech lynching."
So, do you see why I can support an impeachment inquiry, but only when the time is right, and only when we have the foundation firmly in place? I will defer to Pelosi on when the timing is right.
Strategy often involves delayed gratification. I think a lot of people don't get that, and feel they are entitled to an impeachment NOW because they are exhausted and furious.
Celerity
(43,334 posts)(which really opens us up to charges of launching an election year ploy) to simply open an enquiry, the narrative is going to be ruled and cemented in by Trump and his Rethug minions, as he is going to do nothing but stonewall. Mueller may not even testify without the added weight of an enquiry.
I am not saying open an enquiry this coming Monday, but surely it has to happen in the next 2, 3 months max. Our base is going to continue to peel off if we simply take a stance (at the end of the day) that we will just let it all ride on the 2020 POTUS elections, (minus some non-enquiry based assorted hearings that as of now have a pretty ineffectual outcome so far, as Rump is just blocking most all things in that regard, and the whole game atm is rigged by the traitorous Barr.)
That is not a safe path at all, that is really rolling the dice from a multiplicity of angles.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)I have no idea how much the House investigations have been able to unearth in the few months since we took the House (after the shutown), so I'm not in a good position to make a judgement on timing an inquiry. I don't have access to the information, nor do I have the legal or procedural background to interpret when we have a tight enough case.
Where did you hear that "the base" is "peeling off" and what does that mean, exactly?
Celerity
(43,334 posts)especially A-A ones, on MSNBC and CNN. Al Sharpton a few hours ago was talking about that very thing in regards to what the article discusses, and he is far from the only one I have seen over the past few days, especially since the Mueller statement.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100212147009
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Celerity
(43,334 posts)It is becoming a narrative.
I fixed the link to the article in that OP
here is the correct link
Black Voters Challenge House Members: Why Is Trump Still in Office?
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/30/us/politics/black-voters-impeachment.html
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)be quantified.
Are you saying that this article is what you base your claim that "the base is peeling off?"
By "base," do you mean Black voters only?
Kurt V.
(5,624 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)we need for this situation.
Can you think of anyone with better qualifications to deal with the current situation?
Kurt V.
(5,624 posts)govt is accessing the situation properly. the framers may have accounted for trump but not the trump/barr/turtle trifecta.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)And again - who do you think is more qualified and experience to deal with this situation - as screwed up as it is right now - than Pelosi?
What situation specifically do you think isn't being assessed/accesssed adequately? This is a governmental issue, one that Congress is specifically tasked with. It may be a unique situation, but a deep knowledge of the rules and procedures, access to the best counsel, cool under pressure, and decades of experience in congress all apply. Just because the situation is unique, doesn't mean that Pelosi's extensive skillset, House experience and temprament is not applicable or relevant.
Pelosi's parents were both in politics. It's really the family business - so she's seen a lot more varied political "situations" than most. She majored in Political Science.
There is no one more qualified to figure out every possible strategy for this situation.
Kurt V.
(5,624 posts)Legislation is being stalled. WH and AG are sandbagging the oversight investigations. some one needs to think outside the box.
i once heard an interview with her. her first memories of politics was when she was 5 y.o. i thought that pretty cool.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)inside and out. A goose disabling one of your jet engines over the Hudson river is a 'unique situation,' but you sure as hell want a Sully in the cockpit coming up with all actual scenarios to get that plane down safely. Praying is "outside the box" but not very effective.
Legislation is being produced, it's just not going to make it past a GOP Senate, and even if it does, DT is flighty and might choose to veto it anyway... like he did the shutdown. That doesn't indicate that productive legislative work isn't being done on the part od Democrats.
The thing is, this is what is called a 'wicked problem' - one with many moving parts, and fixing one might create another. Like with the situation in the Gaza Strip, there may not be a "solution" that doesn't involve someone feeling like they got screwed over, or that someone else got off scott free when they should have. I think we assume that life is like math or the scientific method - you concentrate and work hard enough, and you will find "the" answer.
I am expecting not to get everything I want out of this situation. I know that there are others who think if they don't get the outcome they wanted - or felt entitled to - that it's unacceptable, and will target their favorite Democratic scapegoat.
I would love a perp walk from the WH. I am too realistic to believe that it will happen if I "just want it enough" or "demand that our leaders accept nothing less." I see a lot of very privileged entitled straight white men here that are used to life making sense to them, and if it doesn't, then something has been 'rigged' or they are being "jerked around."
That expectation of how the world "should" work is what impels white people to call the cops when something occurs that is outside their comfort zone - it must be dangerous, sinister, or not what it seems, even if it's just black families barbequing in a public park. Or the candidate that wasn't the choice of white straight men winning an election.
Not having been the center of culture in this country for centuries, I don't get as freaked out and defensive when life doesn't go the way that suits me.
Kurt V.
(5,624 posts)have to tell them we're a big part of the problem.
scully was just the right person, by pure happenstance, to do what he did. very few pilots could have pulled that off.
i don't believe in free will, so i don't get freaked out either by much. that belief also says life is like math or science problem. we just don't view it that way.
lastly, The Gatekeepers is an authoritative documentary on the issues of the Palestinian/ Israeli conflict.
when i say 'lastly' i mean as a reply to the above. not the conversation.
Kurt V.
(5,624 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Kurt V.
(5,624 posts)this line of attack.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)That may fall into ethical issues, whereas emoluments clause violations, campaign finance violations and obstruction of justice are more concrete legally.
Directing our time and energy towards clearly illegal activities will produce far more damning evidence - more bang for the limited buck.
Irishxs
(622 posts)live love laugh
(13,104 posts)coti
(4,612 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Experience?
coti
(4,612 posts)And I am. She's rationalizing.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Can you give examples that show this that don't involve mind reading?
Or are you saying that the more responsibility that one gets from their Democratic peers, the worse their judgement is, and the less power one has the 'easier it is to be smart?"
Or does this only apply to Pelosi?
Obama had even more power. Was he compromised even more?
And if what you say is true isn't it just as easy for me to as "be smart" as you, then? If all those without political power make it "easier for them to be smart" why do we elect them to positions of power?
Not making much sense here.
coti
(4,612 posts)Especially if a person is, for whatever reason, more apt to avoid a particular conflict. It's not clear why Pelosi is frightened of impeaching Trump, but she's made it more than clear that she does indeed want to avoid it.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Not insulting at all....
And that because she often seeks consensus, that means she "avoids a particular conflict" and that's a weakness.
Women in power are often seen that way by men, erroneously.
So why do you think that she's managed to get the admiration and confidence of her fellow Democrats in the House to keep electing her their leader over and over and over?
What do you know about her that they don't?
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)RelativelyJones
(898 posts)She is the dominant reason we won the House back last year.
coti
(4,612 posts)Your statement doesn't seem to directly relate to what I'm saying, regardless.
RelativelyJones
(898 posts)BeyondGeography
(39,370 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)If she's that big a handicap, why do her peers keep electing her their leader in the House?
What do you know that they don't?
BeyondGeography
(39,370 posts)Dont you have any hobbies?
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)I get it, you really dislike her.
But just owning that would be more credible than coming up with rationalization for personal dislike after one has decided that one won't admit that there is anything positive or accomplished in somebody that you just don't like.
She's "scared," she's "coming up with rationalizations," she's "decided that she's going to take the path of least resistance," she "avoids conflict," she deserves no credit for any successes, yet deserves all the blame for anything seen as less than successful.
None of which have any factual basis, all of which are male tropes of women in power, and all of which are demeaning.
RelativelyJones
(898 posts)coti
(4,612 posts)It is questioning her leadership- and that of others, by the way, like Steny Hoyer (he's actually much worse)- and holding Dem leadership accountable. There's nothing unreasonable about the expectations of many, many Democrats regarding the necessity of defending the very foundations of our democracy. It's what constituents are supposed to do.
RelativelyJones
(898 posts)coti
(4,612 posts)Now you have the nerve to call my asked-for explanation of why her thinking is flawed "bashing."
RelativelyJones
(898 posts)Where's your hard evidence?
coti
(4,612 posts)It's very different than corruption- i.e., I'm not just giving another version of "Absolute power corrupts absolutely"- and it's different than being compromised by blackmail or extortion, also. Different concept, here.
It's closer to buckling under the pressure of responsibility- fearing failure. Being too tentative when making decisions (or, at other times, maybe not tentative enough). Anxiety leading to overanalysis. And yes, she's giving in to a portion of Trump's bullying, too. You can see her do so when she gives reasons for her positions that make reference to what Trump or Trump's supporters might do in the event that Trump is impeached- once someone starts talking about the other side's "might's" resulting from one's own actions, the decision is in many ways coming from a place of fear.
RelativelyJones
(898 posts)same language to Pelosi. It's a loaded term and very strange that you accuse her of being compromised.
She's 'scared,' because you say so.
She's "compromised' because you say so, and because you have little to no political power (other than voting and writing your rep) that makes you "more able to be smart."
Again - did putting Obama in a position of power make him "less smart?"
Or is it just Nancy who is "weak" and "afraid" and "fearful" despite all evidence to the contrary...
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)on the flawed rationalizing of an emotional response to Madame Speaker in posts here, including the one I am responding to.
Does it come from a place of fear? Anxiety that leads to flawed overanalysis?
Just inferring from your own words, like you do Madame Speaker, so I know that you understand that discussion of one's flaws is valid, and not "bashing."
RelativelyJones
(898 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)and demands that their opinions be given the weight of "fact," and that emotional observations be given the weight of 'evidence.'
Prepare to be told how you are simply being trollish, in florid, language.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)"the necessity of defending the very foundations of our democracy," and it's necessary for "constituents" have to hold her accountable?"
I get you REALLLY don't like her, but I'll bite. Why is it that she doesn't get "the necessity of defending the very foundations of our democracy" since that's what you claim.
Just clarifying that's what you are accusing her of, passively stated.
And why do you think that despite all the 'weaknesses' and 'fear' and laziness in 'taking the path of least resistance" that she keeps on getting elected to lead by her peers?
Why is it do you think that Democrats in congress don't "see her" in the way that you clearly, from afar, do?
What is it that gives you the ability to read her 'motivations' and see all her 'disqualifications' that no one who disagrees with you - which includes the vast majority Democrats in the House, can?
Your lack of "power" as you have stated is necessary for "smarts?"
Sounds like the absolute, misplace self-confidence of an armchair quarterback that they are way more qualified than the coach because they're not down on the sidelines, compromised by all that noise, and stress of being responsible for strategy....
RelativelyJones
(898 posts)coti
(4,612 posts)You know, I guess it's nice to have someone making sure to repeat all the words I say, but I hope you're not expecting me to pay you.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Perhaps you didn't want to answer the question you were asked - I can understand, there was no way to validate any number you claimed - so you went for a desperate red herring, delivered in the usual manner...
You know, you're right. It's really is easy to know without any doubt someone's inner fear, anxieties and true motivations just from a cursory analysis of their words. It's just obvious.
mcar
(42,307 posts)So, yes, she played a big role on our wins.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)and she's 'fearful" and "afraid of conflict" and "compromised by power" - that she could do that just doesn't make any sense because our esteemed fellow DU'er totally has her number, and it's so obvious, one might as well just accept that as fact!
All those status quo male tropes about a woman in power who doesn't apologize for being a woman, doesn't defer, knows when she's good at what she does, and doesn't seem to care when men disapprove.
mcar
(42,307 posts)shanny
(6,709 posts)(like that will happen anyway) that she doesn't want to use the only tools available to her to save American democracy? That is, she won't publicly make the case, because the corrupt repukes won't treat it as the serious issue it is? That's EXACTLY the reason she SHOULD do it, to expose both him and them.
And serve them all up on a platter right before the election.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Please tell us why Speaker Pelosi would "not want to save American democracy," as you put it?
Why is your judgement on what that involves so much better than hers?
Also, when did she say she was "SO concerned that he won't go to jail?"
Link, please. I think you jumped on to the Pelosi bashing without actually getting the facts.
live love laugh
(13,104 posts)beachbum bob
(10,437 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)understanding of what she actually said.
coti
(4,612 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)coti
(4,612 posts)Are you going to start up with the repeating others' posts just for the sake of being annoying again?
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)What makes you more capable of judging what to do next than Pelosi?
And how did I 'repeat your post?'
You said this:
Then I asked you when she said that.
Not repeating. Is that clearer?
coti
(4,612 posts)You often repeat posts asking for information that is either obvious or totally irrelevant. It's a rhetorical tactic people use when they're less interested in having a productive, honest discussion than they are in getting the last word or getting others to be quiet.
In this case, you're asking for irrelevant information, as I obviously never said or implied that she ADMITTED to taking the path of least resistance. Why exactly would you expect that she would admit to that out loud, to herself or anyone? Why does she have to say it herself for it to be allowed into the proverbial "evidence" of the discussion? In other words, what the hell are you talking about?
But I've got my coffee here and we can keep deconstructing your rhetorical devices if you like.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Last edited Fri May 31, 2019, 10:12 AM - Edit history (2)
Speak for yourself. You make proclamations, then get testy when someone challenges your faulty premise. I know that's embarassing, but accusing anyone who does of being "less than honest" or "trying to end the conversation" is not productive or factual. It's insulting, actually. But you knew that when you wrote it. It's very frustrating when one refuses to take the bait, yes?
So you admit that you are guessing. You didn't say "I think," you made declaration (a rather insulting one) about what her motives, thoughts and decisions were: "Coming up with reasons after deciding on the path of least resistance nt"
I'm saying that you expect to your guesses, many which are insulting, to have the weight of evidence, when there isn't any to back up your claim - for instance, if she was to say it. So that's why I wondered what the hell you were talking about, and asked.
Is that clearer?
Again, speak for yourself. I'm not the one claiming to be able to read minds.
coti
(4,612 posts)No, and neither does Nancy Pelosi have to narrate her own thinking process for us to understand why she does something. We can infer her motivations from her behavior.
You need to work on your critical thinking skills. Your expectations regarding the empirical bases of premises are highly unrealistic, and, as already mentioned, seem more aimed at shutting down discussion than making an honest point.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Last edited Fri May 31, 2019, 11:57 AM - Edit history (3)
And you continue to evade questions that expose your own critical thinking deficits, and get very testy with anyone inferring your motivations from your behavior. Pot, meet Kettle.
Hit the nail on the head, didn't I? The fury at having one's authority on a topic challenged, and not having one's opinion being given the weight of fact /the final word on a topic, then that someone CONTINUING to stay on topic, then refuses to withdraw or show proper deference after being delivered a puffed up, supercilious, self-congratulatory 'reposte," is palpable.
George II
(67,782 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)at not being deferred to. Doesn't sound like they're very used to interacting with those who don't agree lockstep.
To be fair, it can't be easy when one's self-image is so easily injured by others who disagree yet actually consider themselves to be equal, let alone smarter, more informed, less judgemental, less anxious and reactionary and are able to demostrate it, unapologetically for everyone to see.
stillcool
(32,626 posts)what am I thinking? Do you need a picture, a comment, anything?..or can you tell just because you're you? And the "we' you speak of...who is that?
lapucelle
(18,252 posts)Three donuts for the trifecta!!!
TCJ70
(4,387 posts)...is the plural of basis and used correctly.
lapucelle
(18,252 posts)snip==================================
snip=================================
While "bases" is an acceptable plural of "basis", there seems to be only one one antecedent for the word "premises" in the critical thinking expert's thoughtful critique.
Points docked for usage are therefore restored.
However, because the exacting rhetorician assumes that what may be true in one case (a single alleged unrealistic expectation) is true in general, his hasty generalization still makes him eligible for the trifecta.
true
Welcome.
George II
(67,782 posts)Have a great night!
RelativelyJones
(898 posts)moderate districts support it. The momentum is building in that direction and she can count. She also knows that if it doesn't come from bottom up Dems may lose the House and see Trump re-elected, which is the nightmare scenario she is trying to prevent.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)live love laugh
(13,104 posts)spanone
(135,830 posts)ego_nation
(123 posts)Were the Senate to convict, he would leave the White House, but he doesnt go to prison. This makes no sense.
beachbum bob
(10,437 posts)prevents a new set of impeachable charges to be filed later against the same person. Nothing in the constitution waives the right at all. OP is misguided
CousinIT
(9,241 posts)Celerity
(43,334 posts)dubyadiprecession
(5,707 posts)Thomas Hurt
(13,903 posts)If their seats are in jeopardy they will convict.
Not sure how you convince cult of personality addled magical thinkers of that.
Impeachment can and should move forward but the real focus has to be on making Trump a one term loser.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)and I doubt you'll even find a prosecutor who will prosecute trump.
As it is now, even in the most Blue venue, there will always be at least one white winger who'll hang the jury.
Add in -- the Senate acquitted him (and this assumes the House votes to Impeach) -- the jury might just vote to acquit.
She's right, they need a pretty ironclad case. Unfortunately, I don't think Obstruction is going to work. Maybe his taxes, finances, proof of beholding to Russia, etc., might.
Personally, his racism/bigotry alone should be enough to Impeach him. But, in this country, too many view that as a virtue.
Fiendish Thingy
(15,601 posts)Impeachment is not a criminal trial, and acquittal there would not prevent indictment and conviction once out of office - no double jeopardy exists, and no statutory violation would be alleged in the Senate trial, only articles of impeachment.
Way to craft a winning narrative, Nancy.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)bdamomma
(63,845 posts)to get his ass out, then may be the Senate will come up with the correct and right decision.
McConnell thinks he is untouchable.
riversedge
(70,204 posts)KPN
(15,643 posts)I've been back and forth on impeachment. But after Mueller's statement the other day, it's obvious he paved the way for Congress. Barr validated that just today in his interview on CNN. ......................
It's time to go on the offense! The nation is increasingly at risk when and while we allow tRump and the GOP goons to operate unfettered by being defensive.
Be clear Madame Speaker. Say the words: We are holding hearings and investigating to ITMF now!
honest.abe
(8,678 posts)I dont trust him no matter what he says.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)Do I wish she would speed things up and advocate for impeachment, full throttle? Yes, just like I kept sayin I wish Bernie had initially come out more strongly in favor of impeaching Dolt45. But, Nancy and Bernie have shown excellent political judgment throughout their careers and both, at least, are moving in the right direction, having recently shown more openness to begin the impeachment process.
So, I'm willing to be a little more patient with Nancy (and Bernie), waiting for her to call for impeachment proceedings to start... I suggest you should too!! (But, of course, I respect people who have grown impatient... it's understandable.)
Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!
Tactical Peek
(1,208 posts)Thus, specifically implying that even if impeached and removed from office, the person could still stand trial for the same offense without violating the double jeopardy protection.
Article 1, Section 3
Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.
https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs/constitution-transcript
So a POTUS is still subject to later indictment whether the Senate removes them or not, in my view. Whichever adviser gave Pelosi the bum steer should step forward and defend their Republican-loving malarkey.
Blecht
(3,803 posts)Here's an excerpt from an article on the ABC News web site:
What she says about a "school of thought" is not much different from the "people are saying" crap we've been getting from Trump and his enablers. And when she mentions such things, she is giving these ideas validity.
I don't like it at all. I still support her in her role as Speaker, but I am really frustrated right now.
On Edit: Link to article
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)Proud Liberal Dem
(24,412 posts)Is that even true? I'm not a lawyer but how would Double Jeopardy (which is what I *think* she is talking about) apply?
SunSeeker
(51,550 posts)The Senate trial is not a criminal trial. I am not aware of any statute or case law that a Senate vote would not preclude future criminal or civil proceedings against Trump.
Snackshack
(2,541 posts)But a failure to impeach (likely with republicans in charge of the senate) would hand trump a huge advantage in any trial post presidency.
SunSeeker
(51,550 posts)We have the House majority. We can surely vote to impeach.
Certainly we may not get the Republicans in the Senate to vote to remove, but that is to Republicans' everlasting shame, and hardly a "victory" for Trump.
Snackshack
(2,541 posts)The House could vote to begin impeachment but Senate Republicans would never vote to impeach him (yes, to their ever lasting shame but they could care less about that). Republicans have worked for too long to get where they are to let trump stop them from getting the things have dreamed of for years. The tax cuts, over turning Roe v. Wade, filling Judgeships with like minded people in unprecedented numbers. Hacking away at social programs etc.
If / when trump is out of office and if he is charged. It would be a very big obstacle for the prosecutor to convict him if his defense team can say congress did not find him guilty how can the jury...
Lunabell
(6,080 posts)So impeach!
samnsara
(17,622 posts)..videos..pictures!
NewJeffCT
(56,828 posts)from multiple legal analysts
FiveGoodMen
(20,018 posts)NewJeffCT
(56,828 posts)NewJeffCT
(56,828 posts)Speaker Pelosi seemed to imply that if the House were to impeach a President and the Senate were to fail to convict, it could impair a future criminal prosecution. One has nothing to do with the other. The impeachment process is within the Legislative Branch, Garber said. The criminal process is handled by the Executive and Judicial branches. A person can be impeached by the House, acquitted by the Senate and still be prosecuted criminally.
https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/legal-expert-pelosi-got-aspect-of-impeachment-wrong-on-jimmy-kimmel-live/
NewJeffCT
(56,828 posts)NewJeffCT
(56,828 posts)BeyondGeography
(39,370 posts)Great work. Thanks.
Gore1FL
(21,130 posts)The Senate decides if he is removed from office, not if he is exonerated.
Why give them their talking points?
Voltaire2
(13,023 posts)a judicial proceeding and that there is no impact on future criminal proceedings. It is the process for removing a person from office, and that is all
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Here's the exact quote:
BlueStater
(7,596 posts)Anyone with a brain knows they're as corrupt and immoral as the orange scumbag. It's why their approval rating has been under 30% for over a fucking decade now.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/01/politics/poll-of-the-week-congress-approval-rating/index.html
gldstwmn
(4,575 posts)whether we like it or not.