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applegrove

(118,763 posts)
Thu Jun 6, 2019, 11:04 PM Jun 2019

House Backs Off Holding Barr in Contempt

House Backs Off Holding Barr in Contempt

June 6, 2019 at 7:42 pm EDT By Taegan Goddard 100 Comments

https://politicalwire.com/2019/06/06/house-backs-off-holding-barr-in-contempt/

"SNIP.....

“After weeks of pledging to hold Attorney General William Barr and the former White House counsel Donald McGahn in contempt for defying subpoenas, House Democrats appear poised to pursue an alternative path to try to force them into sharing information,” the New York Times reports.

“A resolution that the House Rules Committee unveiled on Thursday would authorize the House to petition a federal court to enforce its requests for information and testimony related to the report of the special counsel, Robert Mueller, but without mentioning contempt.”

......SNIP"

43 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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House Backs Off Holding Barr in Contempt (Original Post) applegrove Jun 2019 OP
once again, we whip out the water balloons in a nuclear war. NRaleighLiberal Jun 2019 #1
Petition the court AND hold them in contempt.... spanone Jun 2019 #2
It doesn't work that way StarfishSaver Jun 2019 #7
I like your comments on this site - Mme. Defarge Jun 2019 #31
Thank you. I am calming down now. nt emmaverybo Jun 2019 #32
Significant paragraph from the original NY Times article here: VOX Jun 2019 #3
Thank you! StarfishSaver Jun 2019 #5
Why are you maligning Dem contempt proceedings as a "pound of flesh"? SunSeeker Jun 2019 #11
Because it's more important to get the information than to punish Barr. The Velveteen Ocelot Jun 2019 #14
Why can't we do both? This sends a terrible message. nt SunSeeker Jun 2019 #17
How can Barr be punished when the contempt resolution has to be referred to the DoJ, The Velveteen Ocelot Jun 2019 #21
This is some fucked up system. Someone screwed up big time designing it. triron Jun 2019 #24
It's basically an honor system. It works fine when the people who manage it are honorable. The Velveteen Ocelot Jun 2019 #25
It is not an honor system. We have contempt powers. We need to use them. nt. SunSeeker Jun 2019 #30
Referral to DOJ is not the only way to enforce a contempt resolution. SunSeeker Jun 2019 #27
"Let us reason together." sprinkleeninow Jun 2019 #18
Thank you for going beyond the headline, and reading and quoting the article, The Velveteen Ocelot Jun 2019 #8
Even if i didn't want to give the traffic to political wire, which i do because applegrove Jun 2019 #9
This is one of those pesky little facts Control-Z Jun 2019 #19
Always a voice of reason. You calm me down. 😍 eom sprinkleeninow Jun 2019 #20
Explanation welcomed. eom sprinkleeninow Jun 2019 #16
OK.Getting a better understanding now. nt emmaverybo Jun 2019 #33
Oh, you've got to be shitting me! Ligyron Jun 2019 #4
Please read VOX's post above StarfishSaver Jun 2019 #6
I have to admit that I am not the better person, and that I would like to see us Tech Jun 2019 #10
You are the better person for wanting contempt proceedings. SunSeeker Jun 2019 #13
This may prove to be the better choice. procon Jun 2019 #12
Why can't we do both? Shouldn't there be punishment for noncompliance? SunSeeker Jun 2019 #15
For starters, if Nadler goes to court straight procon Jun 2019 #22
We can't let Trump rallies detetmine this. It's time Pelosi used the House Sergeant-At-Arms. SunSeeker Jun 2019 #29
How would that work? procon Jun 2019 #34
How do any arrests work? And there is also the civil proceedings route. SunSeeker Jun 2019 #35
The rule of law worked just fine until the Trump era. procon Jun 2019 #36
That is why we must use all the powers available to us to reign him in. nt SunSeeker Jun 2019 #37
I hear your frustration. IMHO I think Dems are setting this up... CaptainTruth Jun 2019 #23
During Watergate they would have been arrested by US Marshalls. triron Jun 2019 #26
As long as they don't walk away. Chemisse Jun 2019 #28
Cowards. Nt Fiendish Thingy Jun 2019 #38
Well, isn't that special? Maybe they could invite Barr to tea and win him over with cookies. Vinca Jun 2019 #39
IT'S A TRAP! RoadMan Jun 2019 #41
Agreed 1000 percent!!! blueinredohio Jun 2019 #42
lol RandiFan1290 Jun 2019 #40
Stop self-neutering, JCMach1 Jun 2019 #43
 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
7. It doesn't work that way
Thu Jun 6, 2019, 11:19 PM
Jun 2019

Even if they held him in contempt, they'd likely end up in court in order to enforce it. This may be a quicker way to do it without Trump using a fight over a contempt citation to slow everything down.

VOX

(22,976 posts)
3. Significant paragraph from the original NY Times article here:
Thu Jun 6, 2019, 11:11 PM
Jun 2019

Sorry I can’t link to the brief article (I’m behind a paywall), but the last paragraph here is important:

Though a contempt vote would allow lawmakers to more forcefully condemn the two men, there may be little practical difference between the two approaches. Holding the witnesses in contempt would allow Congress to criminally refer Mr. Barr and Mr. McGahn to the Justice Department for prosecution and take the cases to court for civil enforcement. Because there is almost no chance the department would ever prosecute them, that leaves the courts as the only real recourse in either case.
 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
5. Thank you!
Thu Jun 6, 2019, 11:12 PM
Jun 2019

Nadler seems more interested in getting the information than trying to get a pound of flesh and throwing it to the crowds.

SunSeeker

(51,662 posts)
11. Why are you maligning Dem contempt proceedings as a "pound of flesh"?
Thu Jun 6, 2019, 11:31 PM
Jun 2019

Yes, we need to go to court to get the information, but we ALSO need to punish the illegal, baseless refusal to comply with legitimate subpoenas. Otherwise, why would anyone comply with our subpoenas?

The message this is sending to the Trump Administration witnesses is to tell Dems to pound sand. Dems may or may not go to court to get what they want, but either way, there is no legal consequence for refusing tp comply with House subpoenas. That is a terrible precedent.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,829 posts)
14. Because it's more important to get the information than to punish Barr.
Thu Jun 6, 2019, 11:37 PM
Jun 2019

He might deserve it, but the long game involves getting the evidence that they'll need to support an impeachment inquiry.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,829 posts)
21. How can Barr be punished when the contempt resolution has to be referred to the DoJ,
Thu Jun 6, 2019, 11:54 PM
Jun 2019

of which Barr is the corrupt head?

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,829 posts)
25. It's basically an honor system. It works fine when the people who manage it are honorable.
Fri Jun 7, 2019, 12:28 AM
Jun 2019

Unfortunately, sometimes they aren't.

SunSeeker

(51,662 posts)
27. Referral to DOJ is not the only way to enforce a contempt resolution.
Fri Jun 7, 2019, 12:31 AM
Jun 2019

Based on precedent, statutes, and court rulings, the House and the Senate each have the power to invoke three types of contempt proceedings if a committee believes someone is obstructing its investigative powers.

The Congressional Research Service described each of these powers in a detailed March 2019 report. The first type of contempt power is a citation of criminal contempt of Congress. This power comes from a statute passed by Congress in 1857. Once a committee rules that an act of criminal contempt has occurred, the Speaker of the House or Senate President refers the matter to the appropriate U.S. attorney’s office, “whose duty it shall be to bring the matter before the grand jury for its action.” However, the Executive Branch in prior situations has claimed that it has the discretion to decide if a grand jury should be convened to hear the charges. But if the case goes to a grand jury, fines and a jail term could result from the ensuing criminal prosecution.

The second type of contempt power comes in the form of a civil lawsuit brought by the House or Senate, asking a court to enforce a subpoena. The Senate and its committees are authorized to bring such a lawsuit under a federal statute. There is no similar statute that applies in the House, but the federal district court in Washington, D.C. has decided that the House can nevertheless authorize its committees to bring a similar civil suit for enforcement of a subpoena. In either case, an executive branch member can contest the subpoena “based on a governmental privilege or objection the assertion of which has been authorized by the executive branch of the Federal Government,” the CRS said.

The third type of contempt power—Congress’s dormant inherent contempt power—is rarely used in modern times. Inherent contempt was the mode employed by Congress to directly enforce contempt rulings under its own constitutional authority until criminal and civil contempt statutes were passed, and it remained in use into the twentieth century. Under inherent contempt proceedings, the House or Senate has its Sergeant-At-Arms, or deputy, take a person into custody for proceedings to be held in Congress.

Although these powers are not directly stated in the Constitution, the Supreme Court has ruled on multiple occasions that they are implicit as an essential legislative power held by Congress.

Justice Willis Van Devanter made perhaps the most famous statement of these powers in McGrain v. Daugherty, a 1927 Supreme Court decision about Mally S. Daugherty, the brother of former Attorney General Harry Daugherty.  A select Senate committee issued a subpoena for Daugherty to testify and to also surrender records from an Ohio bank. When Daugherty refused to comply after a second subpoena, the Senate passed a resolution issuing a warrant and authorizing a Senate deputy to take Daugherty into custody. Daugherty filed a habeas petition against his detention. A lower court ruled that the Senate exceeded its powers by detaining Daugherty, freeing him. However, the Supreme Court upheld his conviction, holding that under the Constitution, Congress has the power to compel witnesses and testimony “to obtain information in aid of the legislative function.”

“Each house of Congress has power, through its own process, to compel a private individual to appear before it or one of its committees and give testimony needed to enable it efficiently to exercise a legislative function belonging to it under the Constitution,” Van Devanter said. “This has support in long practice of the houses separately, and in repeated Acts of Congress, all amounting to a practical construction of the Constitution.”

https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/the-houses-contempt-powers-explained

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,829 posts)
8. Thank you for going beyond the headline, and reading and quoting the article,
Thu Jun 6, 2019, 11:20 PM
Jun 2019

which explains how authorizing the committee to petition a federal court to enforce its requests for documents is as good as, if not better than, holding Barr in contempt. According to the article, "Democrats have drafted a measure meant to expedite their path to the courts to try to enforce the House’s demands for documents and testimony to further multiple House investigations, including one into possible obstruction of justice and abuse of power by President Trump."

The reason they wanted to hold Barr and McGahn in contempt in the first place is that Barr wouldn't turn over the unredacted Mueller report and McGahn wouldn't testify. The contempt resolution allows for a criminal referral to the DoJ. And who is the head of the DoJ?

The new strategy allows them to bypass Barr's DoJ and go directly to a federal court. This is faster and more likely to succeed.

applegrove

(118,763 posts)
9. Even if i didn't want to give the traffic to political wire, which i do because
Thu Jun 6, 2019, 11:28 PM
Jun 2019

they are small but sooo salient 7 days a week, I am having trouble getting my NYTimes subscription this month. I can't read articles or links to articles. Just an FYI.

Control-Z

(15,682 posts)
19. This is one of those pesky little facts
Thu Jun 6, 2019, 11:43 PM
Jun 2019

that makes me lose my mind more and more. I've wondered for the longest time how Barr's confirmation could be anything other than criminal. He put another partner in crime in charge of everyone - essentially guaranteeing the ability to do anything they want.

Who doesn't think about this every minute of every hour of every single day? Every idea about how we're going to stop these bastards needs to always be prefaced with this pesky little fact.

Ligyron

(7,639 posts)
4. Oh, you've got to be shitting me!
Thu Jun 6, 2019, 11:11 PM
Jun 2019

Are we ever going to pull the trigger on anything the Trump party has wroth?

Tech

(1,771 posts)
10. I have to admit that I am not the better person, and that I would like to see us
Thu Jun 6, 2019, 11:30 PM
Jun 2019

get a pound of flesh from someone.

SunSeeker

(51,662 posts)
13. You are the better person for wanting contempt proceedings.
Thu Jun 6, 2019, 11:36 PM
Jun 2019

The Republicans' blatant lawlessness must have legal consequences, otherwise no one will feel compelled to comply with our subpoenas. They'll just tell the Dems to pound sand, knowing the worse that can happen is months, maybe years down the line, some judge might order them to turn over some of the info. This is a terrible precedent.

procon

(15,805 posts)
12. This may prove to be the better choice.
Thu Jun 6, 2019, 11:34 PM
Jun 2019

Barr wouldn't have been hurt by a charge of contempt. He's already gone so far beyond that it would be nothing more than as little slap on the wrist that he and Trump would turn into a cornball joke to use for funraising.

Take him to court and let the law set him straight. He'll end up looking like an ass kissing fool who sold hs honor to join the other zombies who shill for Trump.

SunSeeker

(51,662 posts)
15. Why can't we do both? Shouldn't there be punishment for noncompliance?
Thu Jun 6, 2019, 11:40 PM
Jun 2019

What sort of message does this send?

procon

(15,805 posts)
22. For starters, if Nadler goes to court straight
Fri Jun 7, 2019, 12:05 AM
Jun 2019

off, then he takes away any opportunity for Barr and Trump to use a toothless contempt order as a punch line at Trump's next rally.

Barr isn't afraid of any contempt order because he's already set himsef above the law. He'd laugh and still refuse to turn anything over to the Dems, so they'd never move past first base. In the end the Dems woud still have to take Barr to court, but Trump would put up so many legal obstacles that it take months just to get into a courtroom.

procon

(15,805 posts)
34. How would that work?
Fri Jun 7, 2019, 12:59 AM
Jun 2019

Barr is inside the most heavily defended facilities in the world and he is protected by his own SS staff. Again, any such pedestrian move would be late night talk show comedy gold. The Republicans would make the Dems into a punchline and we still wouldn't gain a thing.

SunSeeker

(51,662 posts)
35. How do any arrests work? And there is also the civil proceedings route.
Fri Jun 7, 2019, 01:11 AM
Jun 2019

We don't need to just throw up our hands and let there be no punishment.

procon

(15,805 posts)
36. The rule of law worked just fine until the Trump era.
Fri Jun 7, 2019, 01:21 AM
Jun 2019

Even Nixon didn't defy the law the way Trump does.

Trump sets himself above the law, and all his henchmen do the same. We can't run a country when it's leader runs a lawless government. That leaves the courts.

If Trump follows his own pattern then he will refuse any court order he doesn't like, and that will take us to an unresolved Constitutional crisis.

CaptainTruth

(6,600 posts)
23. I hear your frustration. IMHO I think Dems are setting this up...
Fri Jun 7, 2019, 12:16 AM
Jun 2019

...to put Trump (& his administration) in a position where, in order to say "no" & withhold materials they have to defy a court order.

I think once that happens, once Trump & Co are openly defying a court order, the game changes. That elevates it to a level above just being in contempt. That moves public support for impeachment. It erodes the support of Republicans in Congress.

And it frames the conflict as being between Trump & the courts (the law), & not just between Trump & Democrats (partisan).

Plus, courts can & do impose penalties for defying them, every day.

Vinca

(50,302 posts)
39. Well, isn't that special? Maybe they could invite Barr to tea and win him over with cookies.
Fri Jun 7, 2019, 05:56 AM
Jun 2019
WTF IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE?????????????? (Yes, I'm yelling.)
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