BREAKING: House Democrats file suit to obtain Trump's tax returns

[StarfishSaver]

House Democrats are filing a lawsuit for Trump’s tax returns, seeking access to financial records
https://wapo.st/327vc5y

House Ways and Means Committee Chairman Richard E. Neal is filing a lawsuit in federal court Tuesday seeking to compel the Internal Revenue Service to turn over President Trump’s tax returns, according to a person familiar with the matter. Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin denied multiple requests for the financial records, which the president refused to release in the 2016 presidential campaign in a break with decades of precedent.

[TruckFump]

1. Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! K&R

[blondebanshee]

2. Finally!

[OliverQ]

3. What happens when one of Trump's right-wing judges blocks this?

[wryter2000]

8. Or....

What happens if a judge rules in the Democrats favor, and Mnuchin still refuses? That's what I want to know.

[StarfishSaver]

12. Defying a court order is MUCH more serious than defying Congress

If he refuses to comply with the court order, he is in direct contempt of court and the court can fine or jail him and anyone else who defies the order.

Contempt of court is very serious and is, by itself, an impeachable offense that would surely encourage more Democrats to support impeachment and also could possibly force some Republicans to begrudgingly go along with impeachment.

[wryter2000]

16. Agreed

I'm just wondering how far Trump will go. I wouldn't put it past him to try. He's especially sensitive about his tax returns.

Would Barr's DOJ have to enforce the court order? Would he refuse?

[StarfishSaver]

17. The US Marshals would enforce the court order. The Marshal Service is in DOJ, but the marshals

report to the judges. And it is HIGHLY unlikely that any U.S. Marshal would refuse to obey a lawful court order, even if Barr instructed them to. Not only would refusal to obey the order be a crime, following an unlawful order from Barr - and instructing the marshals to disobey a court order would be an unlawful order - would also be a crime. I am sure the marshals would follow the courts and not Barr.

[wryter2000]

18. Thanks for the info

Whatever Trump/Mnuchin/Barr do, Trump is screwed. Either his tax returns come out or they build a huge case for impeachment.

I still don't understand people who want impeachment NOW, when we're just getting started on building the entire case.

[misanthrope]

49. Agreed

Modern society has greatly reduced our patience for procedural avenues. The thread is refreshing and bolsters my spirits.

[lsewpershad]

20. Barr would step in

and probably confine him tRump tower.

[yaesu]

33. Don't forget, tRumps fixer is in charge of the justice department, he could protect tRump

from those nasty law things.

[StarfishSaver]

13. What are you waiting for?! TAKE THEM TO COURT!

WASHINGTON POST: Ways and Mean Committee takes Trump to court.

"What good will THAT do?!"

[itcfish]

4. Wait, Didn't

They already rule on this? That the democrats in Congress had no legal reason why they want to see his taxes or did I just imagine that?

[StarfishSaver]

5. The Treasury Department made that argument, but the court didn't rule

[Me.]

6. Why?

was it just left in limbo with no decision?

[StarfishSaver]

10. No.

They hadn't gone to court yet because there were certain procedural things they needed to do first (including issuing subpoenas), so the court had no jurisdiction. Today, they went to court and filed the lawsuit, so now the court will have jurisdiction over it and can rule.

[Me.]

26. Aaah, Now I get It

Thank you....I thought they'd already gone to court.

[Pepsidog]

7. What happened to the contempt citations? Jail & fines? Weak ass move.

Ask yourself what would Republicans do in tHis situation

[StarfishSaver]

11. The contempt citations aren't self-executing and would eventually end up in court, too before they

could be enforced.

Now the Ways and Means Committee has gone straight to court and this will move it along much faster because they have a much stronger case than the other committees would (since there is a specific statute authorizing Ways and Means to get the returns).

Moreover, jail and fines are merely tools to coerce them to turn over the documents. There's no guarantee that they would result in that information being turned over any time soon. This lawsuit is much more likely to get the tax returns turned over - and if Mnuchin and Trump defy the court order, that is much more serious than refusing to comply with a request from Congress. That, in and of itself would be another impeachable offense.

Republicans would probably do exactly the same thing.

[Pepsidog]

27. Thanks for the reply and explanation. I thought they had already gone to court for a Declaratory

Judgement and the Federal court in DC ruled in a strongly worded, quickly decided ruling that the IRS shall turn over the tax returns because of the statue you mentioned. Or am I confusing that ruling with something else?

[StarfishSaver]

35. You may be confusing it with one of the other cases

In one case judge rules that Trump's financial advisors must return over his financial records. Another one, the judge ruled at Deutsche Bank must have turned over financial documents. Both of those cases are on appeal.

It's hard to keep it all straight, isn't it?

[Pepsidog]

38. Sure is. Another post said Neal had to build a record before filing which makes sense. Now let's see

them file a motion for summary judgement a it appears there are no genuine issues of fact and the law couldn’t be clearer.

[Little Star]

9. Yay! I've been waiting for this.

I really like Chairman Richard E. Neal.

[llmart]

14. Yes!

Some good news finally, though let's hope it doesn't take months to get them.

[malaise]

15. Justice is coming

The Con is going down

[gademocrat7]

19. Good news

Time to hold this cabal accountable for their lawlessness.

[AllaN01Bear]

21. is this a new action or related to an earlier one need input .thanks

[StarfishSaver]

23. It's a new one related to the Ways and Means Committee's request for the returns

Chairman Neal and the committee have been quietly laying the groundwork for this lawsuit over the past few months. Today, they pulled the trigger.

[AllaN01Bear]

24. thanks for your reply. clears alot up. i dont watch tv news or read newspapers

have a heart condition and cant afford to get upset. also comcast priced me out of the market.i hope the party of the first part has good luck with this .

[sheshe2]

50. Lookey here.

StarfishSaver (2,675 posts)

23. It's a new one related to the Ways and Means Committee's request for the returns

My oh my, looks like they haven't used all the tools in their chest. Pretty sure they have more to come. Fact is you never hold up the hammer until the nail is strategically placed.

Chairman Neal and the committee have been quietly laying the groundwork for this lawsuit over the past few months. Today, they pulled the trigger.

Wow. Chairman Neal and the committee has been quietly laying the ground work for this lawsuit. Hm... I need to repeat that statement if I may.

Chairman Neal and the committee have been quietly laying the groundwork for this lawsuit over the past few months. Today, they pulled the trigger.

How dare they do this quietly, laying the groundwork before they pull that trigger. Ha! sure we should tell the Goppers every move we will make. Not.


Jaysus. I am tired of the hair on fire and the attacks on Pelosi and our Democratic congress. Spineless. Sellouts. Wimps. etc.

Thanks.

[mcar]

22. K&R

[EveHammond13]

25. he could have the STATE tax returns tomorrow but he's done nothing on that

[Me.]

32. No...BeCause He Didn't Want To Prejudice His Case

he told us his reason months ago

[StarfishSaver]

36. If he got state tax returns, he'd probably never get the federal returns

Since doing so would have completely undermined his case for the federal returns.

They know what they're doing.

[Gothmog]

28. This will be fun to watch

I am glad that the Democrats filed suit

[onenote]

29. Link to lawsuit

https://games-cdn.washingtonpost.com/notes/prod/default/documents/95ce180a-f07f-46a0-ac53-1c609608d589/note/1deef6dc-e461-4128-af12-5a61b5206c92.pdf#page=1

[Hermit-The-Prog]

56. thanks -- VERY interesting

Right from the start, it's juicy ...

4. Nothing in Section 6103(f) requires the Committee to explain to Treasury its reasons for seeking tax return information. But the Committee’s need for the materials requested here is evident. The committee is investigating the IRS’s administration of various tax laws and policies relating to Presidential tax returns and tax law compliance by President Trump, including whether the IRS’s self-imposed policy of annually auditing the returns of sitting Presidents is working properly, even though it has not been updated in decades. Indeed, President Trump himself has repeatedly questioned the integrity of the process by which the IRS audits his tax returns, complaining that his returns are under “continuous audit” and that the IRS’s policy of annually auditing Presidential returns is “extremely unfair.” The President has also publicly theorized that the IRS audits him because of his assertedly strong Christian faith.

5. These complaints by President Trump underscore the appropriateness of the Committee’s review of IRS audits of Presidential returns, including those of President Trump.

[Hoyt]

30. Anyone want to bet on how long it takes? I'm betting 18 months, if then.

What exactly are we looking for? We know he's not making near as much as he says. And, it's not like their is a Schedule that lists payments to and from Putin, girlfriends, criminals, etc.

[Goodheart]

31. This attempt will die in the Supreme Court. Why?

Because it's a hack body, not anything that dispenses "justice" or properly considers constitutionality.

[Gothmog]

34. As a corporate attorney, the cause of action for ultra vires makes me smile

There is a cause of action in this petition for ultra vires (which is a corporate law concept) that made me smile https://games-cdn.washingtonpost.com/notes/prod/default/documents/95ce180a-f07f-46a0-ac53-1c609608d589/note/1deef6dc-e461-4128-af12-5a61b5206c92.pdf#page=1

NON-STATUTORY REVIEW OF ULTRA VIRES ACTION BY DEFENDANTS
136. The Committee incorporates by reference and re-alleges the preceding
paragraphs, as if set forth fully herein.
137. The Committee has a non-statutory right of action to enjoin and declare unlawful
official action that is ultra vires.
138. Section 6103(f) establishes a non-discretionary duty on the part of Defendants to
the Committee, namely, to provide tax return and related information upon written request by the
Committee.
139. Defendants’ refusal to provide the requested information patently violates Section
6103(f).
140. As a result, the Committee has been, and will continue to be, injured by
Defendants’ action.

Basically, the IRS and Dept of Treasury are acting without any legal authority or power in denying the House Ways and Means Committee access to the trump tax returns. This is a fun application of the concept of ultra vires https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=3KIbXdOFDpa-tQby7q2wCw&q=definition+ultra+vires&oq=definition+ultra+&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0l2j0i10j0l3j0i22i30l2j0i22i10i30j0i22i30.2899.9049..12244...2.0..0.238.2089.11j6j2......0....1..gws-wiz.....10..35i39j0i131i67j0i131j0i67j35i39i70i249.9kaHpyz-q5A

ul·tra vi·res
/ˌəltrə ˈvīrēz/
LAW
adjective
1.
acting or done beyond one's legal power or authority.
"at one point they argue that the legislation is ultras vires"
adverb
1.
beyond one's legal power or authority.
"he will take action against any body acting ultra vires"

This is a good petition

[StarfishSaver]

37. Oooh - "ultra vires" - I love it when you talk legal to me ...

I haven't heard that one in a long time ... Not since my very brief and unhappy stint doing corporate law right out of law school. Bless your heart for sticking with it!

[Pepsidog]

39. After Defendant's answer immediately file for summary judgement. No genuine issues of fact indispute

[StarfishSaver]

43. I think you're right

Of course, the administration will try to muddy the waters and argue that there is a question a fact regarding the legislative purpose. But Neal has pretty much taken care of that argument, so I doubt they'll be able to get away with that.

[Gothmog]

40. I actually argued a summary judgement motion on ultra vires under the DGCL

One of the top litigators in the country was on the other side. The litigators made me argue this motion before the judge because they did not understand the law on this issue. The litigator on the other side is one of the best litigators in the country and my firm has worked with his firm on a number of issues and cases. The poor judge had no idea as to what were talking about about and sent us to mediation.

I have been invited to the holiday party for that firm ever since.

[StarfishSaver]

42. I love it!

[Pepsidog]

59. Cool story.

[Gothmog]

41. From Prof. Tribe

Link to tweet

[Blue Owl]

44. Taxes and Trump is like oil and water...

n/t

[ALBliberal]

45. Wasn't there a committee chair that could already have

Then via NY State? Yes this is good but suit should have been brought in January! Come on Dems!!!!

[StarfishSaver]

46. No

Those weren't his federal tax returns they could have gotten, but his state returns. And if Neal had accepted them, it would likely have destroyed the case for obtaining the federal returns. Neal was right not to go that route.

And if they had filed suit in January before they developed the record, Trump would have been able to drag the case out indefinitely and the committee likely would have lost in the end.

Doing it this way took a little longer on the front end, but not only will it allow them to save months and possibly years of litigation, unlike in January, the case is now a virtual slam dunk, thanks to Neal's strategy and preparation.

[triron]

47. Need lawyers to answer that.

[StarfishSaver]

48. I am a lawyer

But if you don't want to take my word for it, maybe you'll believe Joyce Vance:

Link to tweet

[Gothmog]

63. StarfishSaver and I are both lawyers

Only law review types would geek out about ultra vires
The House Ways & Means Committee attorneys are worried that getting state tax returns would weaken the legal case for the federal returns

[watoos]

51. Why did Neal wait?

The law is cut and dried. The arguments that Neal used today are the same arguments he used 3 months ago.
This case is so cut and dried that it may be settled before the election if the SC refuses to hear the case.
You people are aware right that this House goes away after 2 years right? The law suit disappears after a new Congress is sworn in.
Not enough time is our enemy. Neal should have filed his suit 3 months ago, the law is clear.

[StarfishSaver]

54. Read the thread if you really want an answer to your question

The answer is explained, repeatedly and n great detail.

[watoos]

55. I saw nothing that convinced me,

Neal used the exact same arguments today that he used 3 months ago.
I also saw no reason why Neal refused Trump’s State taxes.
To me having a better case but running out of time is self defeating. This Congress has 2 years to win law suits, then they go away.
A reporter opined that Pelosi doesn’t want to win this case because Trump will defy the court and Pelosi wants no part of impeachment.

[StarfishSaver]

57. Not surprising

But the point is not to "convince" you of anything. It's just facts that answer the question you asked.

[doc03]

52. What took them so f---g long!

[StarfishSaver]

53. Read the thread - your answer lies herein

[watoos]

58. Let me tell a story.

Remember when the IRS was checking the non-profit status of 401c and 501c Tea party organizations? Boehner requested 50 or 60 tax returns of IRS workers, using the very same law that Neal needed so much time to build his case. Boehner got those returns immediately and found absolutely nothing. Funny how Republicans don’t need 3 months to build a case that was a sham.

[StarfishSaver]

60. These situations aren't remotely comparable

Fortunately, the case is being handled by lawyers who know how this works, not by laypeople who don't.

[watoos]

61. Maybe all of the lawyers here

Can’t see the forest for the trees. Trump/Barr don’t give a shit if they win or lose, their game plan is to delay everything and Democrats are more than obliging them.
This law is clear cut they should have filed immediately. If Dems win, in time, will Trump comply with the decision? If he doesn’t will Pelosi impeach?

[StarfishSaver]

62. Lol

Ok.