Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
Tue Jul 16, 2019, 08:28 AM Jul 2019

The Worst Patients in the World

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/07/american-health-care-spending/590623/

Recriminations tend to focus on how Americans pay for health care, and on our hospitals and physicians. Surely if we could just import Singapore’s or Switzerland’s health-care system to our nation, the logic goes, we’d get those countries’ lower costs and better results. Surely, some might add, a program like Medicare for All would help by discouraging high-cost, ineffective treatments.

But lost in these discussions is, well, us. We ought to consider the possibility that if we exported Americans to those other countries, their systems might end up with our costs and outcomes. That although Americans (rightly, in my opinion) love the idea of Medicare for All, they would rebel at its reality. In other words, we need to ask: Could the problem with the American health-care system lie not only with the American system but with American patients?

One hint that patient behavior matters a lot is the tremendous variation in health outcomes among American states and even counties, despite the fact that they are all part of the same health-care system. A 2017 study published in JAMA Internal Medicine reported that 74 percent of the variation in life expectancy across counties is explained by health-related lifestyle factors such as inactivity and smoking, and by conditions associated with them, such as obesity and diabetes—which is to say, by patients themselves. If this is true across counties, it should be true across countries too. And indeed, many experts estimate that what providers do accounts for only 10 to 25 percent of life-expectancy improvements in a given country. What patients do seems to matter much more.

...

American patients similarly don’t like to be told that unexplained symptoms aren’t ominous enough to merit tests. Robert Joseph, a longtime ob‑gyn at three Boston-area hospital systems who last year became a medical director at a firm that runs clinical trials, says some of his patients used to come in demanding laparoscopic surgery to investigate abdominal pain that would almost certainly have gone away on its own. “I told them about the risks of the surgery, but I couldn’t talk them out of it, and if I refused, my liability was huge,” he says. Hospitals might question non-indicated and expensive surgeries, he adds, but saying the patient insisted is sometimes enough to close the case. Joseph, like many American doctors, also worried about getting a bad review from a patient who didn’t want to hear “no.” Such frustrations were a big reason he stopped practicing, he says.


That's one thing I've definitely noticed overseas: doctors in Europe and Asia just aren't used to a patient second-guessing them or advocating for ourselves. They're the doctor, we're the patient, and they expect us to just do what they say.
24 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
The Worst Patients in the World (Original Post) Recursion Jul 2019 OP
Those drug commercials - talk to your doctor about X treestar Jul 2019 #1
OMG I hate those ads. I thought the ACA outlawed them Recursion Jul 2019 #2
Outlaw free speech and limit right of patients to be informed? Hortensis Jul 2019 #13
"Informed" of what? I haven't gone to med school Recursion Jul 2019 #14
This isn't about people prescribing medicines, but knowing they exist. Hortensis Jul 2019 #16
Goddamn! I can't count how many patients of mine have disputed my diagnosis Aristus Jul 2019 #17
Advocating for herself may very well have saved Serena Williams' life. demmiblue Jul 2019 #3
Three thoughts..... Ohiogal Jul 2019 #4
I wonder how much the system itself fosters a culture of patients learning to advocate for WhiskeyGrinder Jul 2019 #5
I'm sorry, but the story about the patient insisting they undergo surgery bullwinkle428 Jul 2019 #6
Did you see what she was wearing? NT SouthernProgressive Jul 2019 #7
No, you have it backwards. It's the people who are doing well who are the problem Recursion Jul 2019 #8
Makes me think I have it right. SouthernProgressive Jul 2019 #11
Anecdotal stories don't jibe Dirty Socialist Jul 2019 #9
The statistics quoted in the article do, though Recursion Jul 2019 #10
It's diet (SUGAR!) Johnny2X2X Jul 2019 #18
The lack of sugar whenever I'm overseas is amazing Recursion Jul 2019 #19
I can attest you are right Johnny2X2X Jul 2019 #23
JAMA is the official organ of the AMA ... GeorgeGist Jul 2019 #12
An important factor in understanding the article Sentath Jul 2019 #15
One problem Dirty Socialist Jul 2019 #20
I live on the 5th floor and my elevator never works Recursion Jul 2019 #22
If we had done that with my mother, she would have ended up with untreated, chronic lyme disease. Crunchy Frog Jul 2019 #21
More to the point, Americans are far more litigious... brooklynite Jul 2019 #24

treestar

(82,383 posts)
1. Those drug commercials - talk to your doctor about X
Tue Jul 16, 2019, 08:32 AM
Jul 2019

My father and his brother argued with me that they knew their body better than the doctor! They have advanced degrees themselves, but could not appreciate someone else's expertise.

And liability may not be such a thing in other countries. Every activity in this country has issues where people want to avoid being sued. They wouldn't take the donations people sent to the concentration camps - because something might be wrong with something and they might get sued!

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
2. OMG I hate those ads. I thought the ACA outlawed them
Tue Jul 16, 2019, 08:40 AM
Jul 2019

but apparently they found a loophole.

And I'm with you: I literally have zero insight to offer over the opinion of someone actually trained in medicine. It's the same reason I hate "rating" my doctor. How the hell do I know if she's good at her job or not? I can rate a doctor's "soft skills", which I'm not saying aren't important, but aren't why I'm going to the doctor.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
13. Outlaw free speech and limit right of patients to be informed?
Tue Jul 16, 2019, 09:27 AM
Jul 2019

No. Remember, the ACA is a product the same liberal principles that created government of, by and for the people in the first place. People wanted national healthcare so we were finally about to create it for ourselves over the opposition of a minority of anti-tax wealthy people who don't need it. Of course we didn't design it to limit our rights.

The question is honesty about the product, not whether companties get to tell people about their products through advertising. Even back in the "good old days" advertising drugs directly to potential patients, rather than filtering information through physicians, was considered an ethical issue, not legally proscribed.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
14. "Informed" of what? I haven't gone to med school
Tue Jul 16, 2019, 09:30 AM
Jul 2019

How could I possibly call myself "informed" about a drug? My opinion is not really worth anything here, and getting me to form one is not the same thing as "informing" me. Informing me would mean sending me to three or four semesters of classes I don't have time to take.

I am not trained in medicine and I don't think I have much to add to the discussions of people who are.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
16. This isn't about people prescribing medicines, but knowing they exist.
Tue Jul 16, 2019, 09:49 AM
Jul 2019

I'm sure you care about making treatment affordable and available to patients. Maybe knowing a drug even exists is the first step to caring about its availability?

For instance, wouldn't it be useful for even those people who don't read well or lack the intellectual inclination to be informed to KNOW there's now a drug that can prevent AIDS?

Almost all of those are eligible to vote, and shouldn't they know about it as citizens as well? For most, AIDS is technically completely preventable, and thus insurance companies believe they shouldn't have to cover those people who deliberately expose themselves. This drug is very much a civic issue, not just one for physicians.

Please remember also, most people are of average intelligence which is not considered adequate to successfully tackle most university disciplines, that many millions of people fall below average but have the same rights as everyone else, and that we all now live in a college-level world regardless of our abilities.

Aristus

(66,380 posts)
17. Goddamn! I can't count how many patients of mine have disputed my diagnosis
Tue Jul 16, 2019, 10:00 AM
Jul 2019

with an indignant "I KNOW MY BODY!"

That's just about the stupidest goddamned thing anyone ever said.

What? The rest of us don't know our bodies? Just never got acquainted? Never took the time to say 'hi'? Never asked our bodies those really crucial get-to-know-you questions?

My response is usually: "I know your body, too. I just examined it. Used science and everything."

demmiblue

(36,855 posts)
3. Advocating for herself may very well have saved Serena Williams' life.
Tue Jul 16, 2019, 08:40 AM
Jul 2019

Women, especially women of color, need to be prepared to advocate for themselves.

Ohiogal

(32,002 posts)
4. Three thoughts.....
Tue Jul 16, 2019, 08:49 AM
Jul 2019

1. I don't know how it is in other countries, but in America, doctors seem to be sued on a regular basis if they don't prescribe every costly test or medication under the sun and a patient has even a moderately bad outcome. Therefore doctors must carry expensive malpractice insuranace.

2. In regards to keeping patients alive by heroic measures even when prognosis of death is inevitable: Religion nuts who push for "life at all costs".

3. Insurance companies have to make their profits!

WhiskeyGrinder

(22,355 posts)
5. I wonder how much the system itself fosters a culture of patients learning to advocate for
Tue Jul 16, 2019, 08:57 AM
Jul 2019

themselves. When the system is set up as a false consumer model and providers are rewarded for volume and quick answers, trust is going to break down as people are both undertreated and they *feel* undertreated. There's a growing awareness around how women, POC and most of all black women are under- and mis-treated by healthcare providers because of a variety of deep-seated issues in our healthcare system. If doctors are mad that their patients don't trust them, they should look at themselves and the system.

ETA: I mean, blaming the consumer for a shitty model is certainly a novel take.

bullwinkle428

(20,629 posts)
6. I'm sorry, but the story about the patient insisting they undergo surgery
Tue Jul 16, 2019, 09:02 AM
Jul 2019

when the doctor specifically advises against it sounds like anecdotal bullshit along the lines of what RWers push when talking about how awful the health care is in every other country compared to the U.S.

Let's just look at this logically - health insurance companies do all they can to keep a ceiling on costs, so they're not going to suddenly bow down to a patient's wishes who happens to be demanding a surgical procedure. Your post implies that health care decisions are truly made "between a patient and their doctor", which is what politicians talk about all the time, but we know damned well where the real power lies when it comes to those decisions.

Several years ago, I was undergoing some serious upper back and neck pain. I went into my orthopedics clinic for a consultation, and was told that surgery was ONLY performed on those patients that had literally lost control of bodily functions! Long story short, I ended up working with a great physical therapist, made some little tweaks as far as my bed, and have continued self-care with a series of exercises and stretching. Have been doing great for some time.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
8. No, you have it backwards. It's the people who are doing well who are the problem
Tue Jul 16, 2019, 09:07 AM
Jul 2019

It's the people with private insurance and an obsessive consumerist attitude that are the issue here.

 

SouthernProgressive

(1,810 posts)
11. Makes me think I have it right.
Tue Jul 16, 2019, 09:11 AM
Jul 2019

Consumers acting like consumers.

It’s in everyone’s best interest as individuals to question their doctors.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
10. The statistics quoted in the article do, though
Tue Jul 16, 2019, 09:08 AM
Jul 2019

Overeating and a sedentary lifestyle account for (according to the study) about 70% of our outcome differences with the rest of the world. The overuse of testing is pretty well-established too.

Johnny2X2X

(19,066 posts)
18. It's diet (SUGAR!)
Tue Jul 16, 2019, 10:13 AM
Jul 2019

Americans actually are exercising almost enough, and the exercise we miss out on is because of obesity preventing people from being able to exercise properly.

It's diet, 100% diet. And it's our addiction to sugar that is at the heart of the matter and we're powerless to do much about it as a society until the government starts making policy to benefit peoples' health rather than to benefit the agricultural and food industries.

Individuals have a chance to make changes, but the information is kept from them and hard to find. We don't even label foods with the % of daily recommended allowance of sugar they have, the agricultural industry effectively lobbied against that. I think the behavior would change if a product had included in the label on the side next to grams of sugar what the % of daily amount that constitutes. A ton of products you have no idea are unhealthy would say this represents 120% of you daily recommended amount of sugar. For instance I bet very few people know that 1 6 ounce cup of of Yoplait Yogurt contains 104% of your daily allowance of sugar for an adult. 1 regular yogurt and you're already over the sugar you're supposed to have for the day, that is amazing.

Sugar is addictive, period. Some studies have suggested it's much more addictive than cocaine. So imagine sending a recovering cocaine addict out into the world we live in today in the US, only there's cocaine in 90% of the food they can eat and everywhere they look there are advertisements for cocaine and people are openly doing cocaine in front of them, and several times a day some one literally offered them cocaine. That's what people trying to kick sugar are dealing with on a very real level.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
19. The lack of sugar whenever I'm overseas is amazing
Tue Jul 16, 2019, 10:18 AM
Jul 2019

I am incredibly irritable and have horrible headaches for a couple of weeks, and then I drop 20-30 pounds almost overnight.

Johnny2X2X

(19,066 posts)
23. I can attest you are right
Tue Jul 16, 2019, 10:46 AM
Jul 2019

The biggest thing I noticed while in Italy is the experience with feeling full sooner. I'd eat a nice meal and eat until I felt satisfied and full, but there was none of the over eating feeling I get in the US, where you eat too much and feel bloated and need to relax. I realized it was the lack of processed foods and sugar in the Italian diet. So in Italy, after a big meal I was ready to walk to the next place to visit. In the US after a big meal, I feel drowsy and bloated and want to let my over full stomach settle down.

People don't realize what they are eating every day, even if they try to eat healthy they are getting so much misinformation for many sources.

Dirty Socialist

(3,252 posts)
20. One problem
Tue Jul 16, 2019, 10:23 AM
Jul 2019

One problem we have is that we need cars to get anywhere and everywhere. Our neighborhoods are far away from essential places. I remember visiting Boston, and I was afraid of driving there. I walked and took the subway to get around. I ended up walking for miles on end. By the end of the trip, I was exhausted, but well in shape.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
22. I live on the 5th floor and my elevator never works
Tue Jul 16, 2019, 10:26 AM
Jul 2019

I'm convinced that's the French secret to health: they don't fix their elevators.

Crunchy Frog

(26,587 posts)
21. If we had done that with my mother, she would have ended up with untreated, chronic lyme disease.
Tue Jul 16, 2019, 10:24 AM
Jul 2019

I think we'll keep doing self advocacy in our family.

brooklynite

(94,585 posts)
24. More to the point, Americans are far more litigious...
Tue Jul 16, 2019, 10:49 AM
Jul 2019

...so health providers add additional tests and treatments to avoid liability suits.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»The Worst Patients in the...