General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsOkay, you're not going to like my opinion...
...but what's going on in the House today is why ordinary voters don't like Congress. The House is spending its time debating (or more precisely NOT debating) a resolution that has nothing to do with the pocketbook issues they care about and will vote on next year. Every Democratic member has already condemned Trump's remarks; there's no value in a partisan vote to stamp the same condemnation with the House's approval. This vote isn't going to change anyone's mind in the electorate: either they support Trump or they support the Democrats or they don't care.
mobeau69
(11,144 posts)brooklynite
(94,571 posts)They're already on the record.
elleng
(130,908 posts)to point out some repugs' votes. Strategy/tactics gone wrong?
lunatica
(53,410 posts)No one will recall that Trump said racist things otherwise.
brooklynite
(94,571 posts)or a page in the Congressional Record, people will go for the CR?
lunatica
(53,410 posts)long after Trumps tweets are on the dust bin of history.
brooklynite
(94,571 posts)The UKs Parliamentary Records from the 17th Century on are available in any decent library. And only the dustiest of academics read them. I'm focusing on accomplishing things in the here and now. Like winning the election.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)brooklynite
(94,571 posts)marylandblue
(12,344 posts)Or I could ask you an easier question. Name the most significant thing Congress did that year.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)If I had a photographic memory I could take you up on this silly dare of yours.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)I've actually had to pick through legislative records. It's boring as shit. Nobody reads it unless they are looking for something in particular as a legal issue or as a historian.
But the most important thing Congress did that year was pass the 19th Amendment. If you are looking at the Congressional Record for 1919 because of history, you are probably looking at that.
The most important thing Woodrow Wilson did was go to Paris for the Treaty of Versailles. But Congress never ratified the treaty, making it the most important thing Congress didn't do. So maybe some people look at that.
100 years from now, few people will know Nancy Pelosi's name, let alone what she did today.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)Thats my point. History has meaning. It always surprises me when someone doesnt get that. Nancy Pelosi will be a historical figure and the subject of biographies more so that congresspeople who dont make history.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)I love history. I study it a lot. And I've learned two things
1) Popular history is what most people think and is often very different from what historians think.
2) The judgements of both popular history and historians keep changing and is often very different from what the protagonists assumed it would be.
We don't know what people will think 100 years from now. There might not even be a United States in 100 years. We might be ashamed of what they think us. We might be appalled. They may disagree with each other about it. And 100 years after that, people might think something entirely different.
I really doubt that Pelosi is concerned about the judgement of history. If she is like most politicians and most of us on DU, she isn't thinking much past the next election. And that's as it should be.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)Or are they? I dont get why you challenged what I said. I think its perfectly OK though.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)We are not our descendants. They are not us. We can only do what seems right to us now based on what we'd like to achieve. Our descendants will have a totally different view based on hindsight and a probably different standard of morality.
The signers of the Treaty of Versailles believed they were making a great historical pact for lasting peace. John Maynard Keynes walked out, predicting disaster. With hindsight, we see that he was right and they had made one of the greatest blunders in history.
With even more hindsight and a different standard of morality, we see that it was both immoral and another blunder for them to give European nations independence but not Asian or African nations. They refused Ho Chi Minh's request for independence and he too walked out. Nobody predicted how that would end up, probably not even Ho Chi Minh himself.
So my view is that doing things for the sake of historical record is fruitless. We don't have the advantage of hindsight and we don't know what standards our descendants will use to judge us.
But you are right that it's okay to disagree.
cheers.
olegramps
(8,200 posts)herding cats
(19,564 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)herding cats
(19,564 posts)I was addressing this vote.
still_one
(92,190 posts)qazplm135
(7,447 posts)"ordinary" Dem voters are probably fine with it.
Those who lean away from Trump are too. Those who lean towards and Republicans aren't.
"Pocketbook issues" are not the only issues voters care about.
brooklynite
(94,571 posts)I've spoken to dozens of House and Senate Democrats from swing districts. They say voters are NOT asking about Trump/Russia/Muller/Impeachment, etc. They ARE asking about jobs, health care, education costs, etc.
qazplm135
(7,447 posts)but just because they aren't "asking" about Trump (why in the world would anyone "ask" about Trump in the first place?), doesn't mean that this election won't be a referendum on Trump. Re-election campaigns are always at least partially a referendum on the incumbent.
So your proposal is what? Let Trump do or say whatever he wants with no reaction? And then you think voters will "reward" us by voting us in?
Sorry but that's...not realistic.
walkingman
(7,616 posts)made a issue. If that means we lose the election to racists bigots in 2020 so be it. This reminds be of the Vietnam War era calls of "love it or leave it" and that was and is disgusting. We should all strive to make this nation one we can be proud of not one run by religious idiots and racist bigots.
Butterflylady
(3,543 posts)But don't they realize that the anal idiot is why their not getting anything done. One goes hand and hand with the other one. And once again like I've said here over and over and over the majority of this country doesn't know what he's up to. They have to explain to these people what exactly he's and his ilk are up to. They're trying to do what they were elected for but him and McConnell are against everything. That's what they need to say. It's really that plain and simple. If people don't understand that then may God help us all.
happy feet
(869 posts)Tired of the either or posts as if democrats aren't doing both. People confuse what the press let's us see/hear with the reality of what's happening. The press/media has a bias towards news that causes dissension...when people are hard at work getting things done---not worthy of publishing.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Last edited Tue Jul 16, 2019, 06:49 PM - Edit history (1)
Youve spoken to people looking for donations.
They tell you whatever they believe is most likely to result in your donating to them.
Thats why they talk to you in the first place, because they want money from you.
Tell me Im wrong. Tell me that you have all of these conversations because they simply find you, out of millions of Americans and including their own constituents, they find you to be an irresistible conversationalist.
Caliman73
(11,738 posts)chambers of Congress AND the Presidency.
The Democratic Party, flawed as it may be, stands for using government to make things as equitable as they can be in a capitalist system. That means distributing the costs and benefits of society according to need, ability to pay, and who gets the most benefit form the production of that society.
Republicans stand for maintaining traditional power structures and enhancing the wealth of the wealthiest. They couch it in terms of "freedom", "liberty", and other language designed only to get an emotional response.
I know you know this stuff as you appear to be pretty heavily involved with political activity.
There are stark differences between the parties even though things often seem in "cruise control" but that is because of the rules designed to prevent the kind of radical shifts in policy that can destabilize things. The problem is that Trump and the Republicans are sawing the legs off of the table knowing that it will likely not come crashing down until they are gone from office, or perhaps doing it in a way where they can blame Democrats.
The Mouth
(3,150 posts)Everything else is unimportant. At least to anyone and everyone I know who is not a complete ideologue.
Most Americans don't care if the president is a saint or an asshole, corrupt or clean. They care about their paycheck, their healthcare, their living situation.
OTOH, it's not like anything they debate, write, or pass is going to get through the Senate
oldsoftie
(12,545 posts)elleng
(130,908 posts)and glad to hear your opinion.
Reminds me (a bit) of health'care' debate; TOO many details and complexity.
PJMcK
(22,037 posts)Who could've guessed that reforming health care could be so complicated? (wink)
I wish I had confidence in the Democratic Congressional leadership. I just don't understand their milquetoast behavior.
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,345 posts)brooklynite
(94,571 posts)WhiskeyGrinder
(22,345 posts)Pretending there's an "ordinary voter" and that one day of House discussion will somehow scare them off makes little sense. If House Dems were condemning the president every day, sure, that's an issue, and not why they're sent to DC. One day 18 months before the election? Nope.
Vinca
(50,273 posts)the House has passed all kinds of good legislation that helps people and it's gone to die in the GOP Senate. They might as well be doing what they're doing in the House.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,182 posts)I'm sure the Madman might take that as a badge of honor since he seems to idolize Jackson, but still....it would be a black mark on his record.
MiniMe
(21,716 posts)malaise
(269,004 posts)AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)It's a Resolution to condemn the tweets and statements
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)He was elected twice and was the most influential President between Jefferson and Lincoln. We even put him on our money
former9thward
(32,009 posts)And was not intended to be one.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Generic Brad
(14,275 posts)That more fittingly represents him.
jcgoldie
(11,631 posts)No you obviously aren't going to win "Trump supporters". Fuck them. But it does matter that its in the news that the president is a racist and that people in official capacities are sticking out their necks to get it into the record. What do you think Lester Holt, et al. will lead with tonight? The takeaway for the casual observer will be that the president made racist remarks. Even if their head was in the sand or they chose not to pay attention to it, it will not be ignored thanks to Nancy Pelosi.
TheRealNorth
(9,481 posts)I am not sure getting the Republicans on record hurts them at this point. The swayable moderates/nonvoters I know already know that Donald Trump is a racist asshole.
maxsolomon
(33,345 posts)the "independent voter" won't even know this happened. too busy mowing the lawn.
Gidney N Cloyd
(19,835 posts)When students study this administration in the future, this is the kind of thing they'll read about.
DURHAM D
(32,609 posts)I am, like every voter, an ordinary voter. I would like to be considered an extraordinary voter and have my vote count twice or ten times but that is not possible.
Signed,
Durham D
an ordinary voter
brooklynite
(94,571 posts)DURHAM D
(32,609 posts)Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Do tell.
brooklynite
(94,571 posts)...who meet with them daily. Also I have a history as a Ward Committeeman, where my job was turning out ordinary voters. So, yes. What would you like to know?
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)I would like to know how you've arrived at the conclusion that the House, using the power available to it, doing something to rebuke racism is going to hurt our reputation with these "ordinary" folks... a nebulous demographic to whom we, as I am to understand it, do not belong.
hlthe2b
(102,277 posts)They have probably seen enough on some occasion to know the parliamentary procedures are extensive, arcane, baffling, and boring.
This afternoon's activity is not a problem. The key is to call out Trump's racism in an immediate fashion so as not to "normalize it". As another poster here said, a resolution is for history. I could not agree more.
SouthernProgressive
(1,810 posts)Dont pay attention to the day in and day out happenings of Congress. I think you are considerably removed from the lives of the ordinary voter.
Not liking your opinion and understanding how flawed it is are two different things. I dont mind your opinion, its just wrong and shows a clear disconnect.
WillowTree
(5,325 posts).........because I do tend to agree with your opinion. I, for one, would love to see both Democrats and Republicans shut up and get on with the actual business of running the government.
leftofcool
(19,460 posts)BeyondGeography
(39,374 posts)I can hear the argument already.
To which I say this is exactly why we should impeach, this sheds zero light on Trumps criminality and will end up doing nothing to hold him accountable. Impeach him already, with the caveat that if youre going to be as unorganized and as unprepared for Republican pushback as we were today, dont bother. Better leadership is required. Much better.
As for pocketbook issues, Democrats have passed lots of bills. Republicans are ignoring them. Do you think swing voters will be impressed by nothing but more bills to nowhere than by standing up for the Constitution and the rule of law?
cwydro
(51,308 posts)Bettie
(16,109 posts)I'm so tired of people going on and on about how many bills have been passed...bills that will go nowhere. How does that help anyone? How does that address ANY pocketbook issues?
So frustrated with this whole freaking thing.
DeminPennswoods
(15,286 posts)They are sitting on McConnell's desk in the Senate while he forces votes on WH nominees. Tina Smith, the jr Sen from MN, was on MSNBC last week. She said only 15% of the votes she's taken in the Senate have involved actual legislation.
PA Democrat
(13,225 posts)we have.
DeminPennswoods
(15,286 posts)is a big problem and why he needs to be ousted as majority leader.
watoos
(7,142 posts)IMO silence is being complicit.
leftofcool
(19,460 posts)YOHABLO
(7,358 posts)Perhaps for the historical context. I look at it as one of the battles of this modern day 'cold' civil war.
many a good man
(5,997 posts)IMO they should censure the asshole every time he says something deplorable even if its five times a week
Caliman73
(11,738 posts)Am I not an "ordinary voter"? I certainly care about pocket book issues.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Caliman73
(11,738 posts)On a serious note. The thing that sometimes discourages me is how disengaged people here are from politics, as if it is something external to "regular life". I remember the sense of embarrassment expressed by French politicians that there was only 75% turnout for an election. People make fun of the French, the British, and Germans about how they are "always protesting something" or demanding something from their government. They are making fun of actual political engagement, of people who work and have lives like we do here, but who are also actively engaged in expressing themselves to their elected representatives.
It is true that how a politician will vote on transgender bathroom use issues is something that affects a small number of people, but people don't stop to consider that a person that is open to supporting the dignity of a marginalized group will likely have a much greater possibility of supporting a living wage for workers, for making large corporations more accountable to the communities in which they are located, and for protecting the environment.
People think that politicians don't listen and don't care but what do we do that makes them care when almost half of us don't turn out to vote, and likely don't even know who their representatives are.
JustFiveMoreMinutes
(2,133 posts)Goodheart
(5,324 posts)Response to brooklynite (Original post)
Post removed
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)Just as they cost us the 2000 and 2016 elections.
marked50
(1,366 posts)the way forward by building the will to face the difficult road ahead. I applaud the move away from the thinking of the past of "what is appropriate" towards to what we must do.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)And I don't think it hurts anything. Most.people don't know what Congress did yesterday, last week or last month.
RhodeIslandOne
(5,042 posts)Nevermypresident
(781 posts)choie
(4,111 posts)for real action, like calling for impeachment.
ecstatic
(32,704 posts)Don't get me wrong, I think trump must be called out. I feel very unsafe in this trump-nationalist-atmosphere. That being said, I want the impeachment inquiry to begin, and NOW! No more censures or words. Time for action.
MarvinGardens
(779 posts)It was done for the Democratic base, plus anyone else who is paying attention and horrified by Trump's remarks. I bet 100% of the Democratic base agrees with the content of this resolution even if some, like yourself, believe it was not prudent to spend time on it. Pretty much all Trump does is play to his base. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't do the same sometimes. We need to keep the base happy too. I am concerned that not rebuking Trump on these remarks that were way over the line, would have been more damaging to the reputation of the "Democratic establishment" among the base.
TheFarseer
(9,323 posts)People are sick of politicians grand standing about decorum and trying to score points with Chris Matthews or whatever talking head. People want results. At the very least, they want - for example - a vote on increasing minimum wage, lowering prescription drug prices, getting rid of tax loopholes for millionaires. Getting Republicans on the record for kitchen table issues is meaningful. Let's do that.
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)But its only a one day story, unlike impeachment.
betsuni
(25,529 posts)would think Republicans are being partisan, wimpy and mean. They wouldn't even admit it was an attack, saying it was all political -- frowning old men walking away from the camera. Only Mitt Romney said Trump's comment was bad. This looks terrible for the Republicans. It's kindergarten and a bully is ruining the class for everybody. The Democrats are the teachers discipling the kid and restoring order, Republicans don't care and let the class go to hell.
*not including Trump lovers (racists)
hatrack
(59,587 posts).
Ponietz
(2,971 posts)Genuine enthusiasm is contagious and galvanizes the Democratic Party base, but your opinions always seem to dampen it.
brooklynite
(94,571 posts)...whether they promote enthusiasm or not.
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)they couldn't care less about how racist Trump is.
dlk
(11,566 posts)What more would you have her do? Theyve gone to die in McConnells Senate. We will get to impeachment, perhaps not as quickly as some would like, but we will get there. Remember, a large part of Pelosis job is getting Democrats elected in 2020. Todays Resolution will go a long way toward that end. The Resolution has also unified Democrats in the House, some who have been sniping at each other. We all want Trump gone, sooner rather than later. Staying united will accelerate the process
greyl
(22,990 posts)Raine
(30,540 posts)backscatter712
(26,355 posts)Let me know when those fucking cowards are going to impeach.
Martin Eden
(12,867 posts)The resolution censuring Trump does not come at the cost of debating and passing legislation to help "ordinary" voters.
House Democrats HAVE been doing that, but it gets almost no press coverage and the plain fact of the matter is that McConnell won't even let that legislation come to a vote in the Senate.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"what's going on in the House today is why ordinary voters don't like Congress"
You fail to support your opinion in any meaningful way. Your begin with a specific premise, yet fail to provide anything to support. It stands as merely an allegation. Simply saying "this is unpopular, but it's my opinion that 2+2=5" is at best, pointless.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)As a black American I'm goddamn sick and tired of seeing Trump's racism either get ignored, get the wink-and-a-nod treatment, or be outright defended by the usual suspects inside the beltway...
JGug1
(320 posts)I'm going to guess that you and I agree on more than we disagree on. We disagree on this. The process of removing this odious creature from the White House is the wheels of justice....grinding slowly. Gradually, the true patriots of this country, as opposed to the Deplorables, are coalescing into a crescendo. That point has not been reached but it is far closer today than it was a year ago.
H2O Man
(73,537 posts)of "like" or "dislike." People have different opinions. I do not fully agree or disagree with what you stated.
olegramps
(8,200 posts)Republicans have been given a choice. Do they support the fascist principles that the Republican Party is pursuing or do they hold to the vision that the founding father of our nation had for an ever more hopeful future for each and every citizen. Do we chose to stand with the Republican's vision of exclusion or do we welcome all to the promise of a better future and brighter future for all. The Republicans have chosen to not only support, but to embrace one of the most despicable men to ever obtains the presidency. To not acknowledge it and condemn outright evilness is a moral failure just as serious as that of the German people who stood by in silence and watched their neighbors who were dehumanized and thrown into death camps to be exterminated like vermin. We don't have speculate on the effect that the 24/7 message of hatred could have. We have the undeniable results. The election of a total moral degenerate by our fellow citizens who view anyone who doesn't totally support their exclusionary vision for the nation as unpatriotic enemies to be crushed.
Response to brooklynite (Original post)
Post removed
Stargleamer
(1,989 posts)which is only partially true. I think that Independents and Democrats still think that blatant racism should be addressed. Republicans by and large don't.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Recommended for that reason.
oldsoftie
(12,545 posts)Its all grandstanding.
ancianita
(36,055 posts)Ordinary voters also don't want to live under dictatorship.
But this is about a presidency that 80% of America didn't vote for, including most of them.
Most people understand what putting any president's words on the Congressional record is for. It's to solidify the impeachment inquiry's narrative about how this prez and government, if not hurting them directly, right now, would seriously hurt them eventually. They know what "pissing on them and calling it rain" means.
I've heard many Trump voters tell me that what they say day to day isn't their best thinking about what they want for this country. I can't help but think that people don't have time to care, or to find out, read, or think through what the Democrats are doing, so I'd prefer to think they'll get woke when it all comes together.