Help me out with weapon terminology please

[SHRED]

Whenever there is a discussion about restricting semi automatics that are able to rip off 20+ rounds in an instant some "expert" jumps on to put you down for not understanding gun terminology.
They do this so as to point out that you don't know what you are talking about even though they know what you are trying to say. It's s distraction. A horrific one.

Magazines or Clips?

Which one do we use when describing how quickly a mass murderer can reload? Is it weapon dependent?
Which one do semi automatics, like AR or AK use?


I want to be accurate to counter the fucking assholes.

[Johnny2X2X]

1. Magazine is correct.

Magazine.

[SHRED]

2. Thank you

[DVRacer]

3. It is firearm dependent

A clip is a small metal strip that holds rounds that is usually fed from the top to load an internal magazine. Best examples of these would be M1 Garrand and SKS.

A magazine holds rounds and as described above can be internal or external. An external magazine is usually inserted from the bottom and can be quickly changed. Best examples are M16 and AR15 also AK47.

Also almost all handguns are magazine fed the major exception is of course revolvers.

If you or anyone else has a question no matter how silly it might sound ask away. Being able to accurately have a conversation is important.

[GP6971]

7. Add the 303 Enfield

with their 10 round stripper clips.

[captain queeg]

8. Good description.

[SHRED]

10. Here's what I'm after

How to describe limiting the ability of any firearm to fire rapidly and limit their capacity to reload many rounds at once?

[Hermit-The-Prog]

39. ignore the terminology

You plainly state your intent; that's good enough.

If you focus on the terminology, manufacturers will work around it with new marketing and lobbying.

If you focus on the purpose (goal), then a law can be drafted to accomplish that goal regardless of changing terminology or marketing.

For example, you could say that no weapon capable of delivering deadly or injurious projectiles, or other deadly or injurious force, at a rate of more than 3 such deliveries per minute, may be sold to, owned by, or kept in possession of, citizens without law enforcement or military training, licensing and responsibility.

Let the battle then begin.

[GP6971]

4. Magazine is the correct term. n/t

[Olafjoy]

5. Massive destruction

The thing about these assault rifles is even if they are not automatic, their bullets blow holes in people. They cause massive tissue destruction and are quite lethal. Don’t let anyone argue with you about what these weapons are intended for. They are intended to kill.
Sorry if this is graphic.

[wasupaloopa]

31. So I carried an M16A1 in Vietnam. The fact that someone can carry something similar in El Paso

is fucking insane. They are made to kill.

The reason they can is political contributions. Not rational or logical.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

33. Don't apologize.

Among the many problems about the gun debate is that the damage done by gunfire is papered over. We never see the actual victims, and quite frankly, we should.

We should also see a lot of follow up stories of the people who are wounded in these events, who struggle for years after to regain their lives. Those who die in the incident are the lucky ones.

[NutmegYankee]

6. Magazine because it contains the springs to push rounds up and can be changed out.

This is contrasted with many bolt action rifles that use a metal clip to hold 5 rounds together that gets pushed into the weapon. In that scenario, the weapon has the springs that advance the ammo.

[Hoyt]

9. I prefer to just say, "Look gun-humper, they both feed bullets into the chamber so you can kill

people with your friggin guns."

[pangaia]

28. ++++++++++++

[brewens]

11. NRA babbling points. You must be able to identify an AR-15 hammer spring blind folded

or you are not entitled to an opinion on guns.

[SHRED]

13. That's what I'm finding

Thank you

[brewens]

45. They say we can't just call them assault rifles because technically, these days those are

rifles that can fire full auto. That hardly matters at all in most cases. They train military guys all over the world to usually use semi-auto anyway. The standard assault rifle of WWII was the M1, "the greatest battle implement ever devised" according to General Patton. It didn't have a full auto setting and it was definitely used in assaults.

I see it's had an effect though. Most in the media and politicians are now careful to say, "assault style weapon". That works well for if they have early breaking news on a shooter and aren't sure exactly what make and model the weapon is. They actually never know a guy didn't have a real select fire weapon, but that's never been the case so far as I know. It's always been what is usually a legal semi-auto version.

[dumbcat]

46. Technically, the M-1 Garrand did not meet the definition of an assault rifle.

The M-1 was one of the last Battle Rifles. There is a major distinction between the two as to the power of the ammunition used, "full power" vs. "intermediate power" rounds. And, the military definition of an assault rifle includes a select fire capability, even if rarely used.

You can google "battle rifle vs assault rifle" and get all kinds of links as to the definitions and the differences.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time. I spent 40 years with the Army in weapons development and testing. Correct categorization and definitions are important to accurate understanding of issues.

[DVRacer]

14. Well I can

I can assemble one from a pile of parts just by sight and feel. Was a useful skill overseas in the military.

[Brother Buzz]

34. Sight?

This dumb draftee can assemble one from a pile of parts just by feel in total darkness. That is, if the bolt isn't disassembled.

[DVRacer]

36. By sight I meant

I can sort and assemble not just a BCG but an entire rifle. Every piece from a stripped lower and upper , FCG everything. Blindfolded I can assemble the BCG and make it ready.

[Brother Buzz]

38. We may have gone to different schools, but we learned the same stuff

[EX500rider]

15. Generally if you are pushing legislation it is helpful to know what you are talking about-ymmv

[DashOneBravo]

12. Magazines have springs in them.

They look like a box and you push bullets down through the top. As the weapon is fired the spring pushes the bullet up in the chamber.

AR and AK’s are magazine fed.

[RockRaven]

16. As useful as it is to short-circuit their objection by just using the correct term from the start,

their objection is side-tracking bullshit which they should not be allowed to get away with in cases where it comes into play. It's reminds me a bit of the Courtier's Reply ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courtier%27s_reply ) sometimes referenced in atheism/theism-debate circles.

[itsrobert]

17. Magazine, but I heard many in the military

refer to them as clips. So, even some in the military don't really care about the difference. I armed up almost every duty day in my military career.

It's a tactic from the the Pro-Gun ground to make the gun reform people look like they don't understand even the basics about weapons. This focuses the attention off gun reform and onto how dumb gun reform people are and not to take them seriously.

[GulfCoast66]

18. Terminology means shit to the people killed!

I have a semi auto shot gun. Inherited it from my grandfather. Made in the 50’s. Every time I pull the trigger it fires. And I can pull the trigger really fast. But it only holds 5 shells. And it takes me several minutes to reload.

The difference is these military styled rifles that hold 20-30+ bullets. We did not have these type guns in the 60’s, 70’s or 80’s. Yeah, Ruger made the ranch gun but it was a small market.

Until we had rifles that could shoot 20-30 rounds(bullets) per minute we did not have these mass shootings. We had semi-automatic rifles, but most hunter did not like them because of decreased accuracy. But even they only held 4-6 bullets. No one is doing a mass shooting having to spend time to reload a gun that only holds 5 bullets. Certainly not killing 20 people.

My deer rifle is pretty much a sniper weapon. I can and do kill deer out to 300 yards. And there are better shots than me by far. But it only holds 4 bullets and I have to manually eject the spent casing. No one is killing 20 people with that gun.

Unfortunately, we can’t just confiscated the high capacity rifles. But we can do a forced buy back. Heller allows tons of firearms regulation.

I would be willing to make them illegal and pay billions to pay their owners. But it’s not happening. There are quite a few on DU who disagree!

They love their guns.

[DVRacer]

22. That's just not true.

I have my grandfathers M1 .30 carbine from WWII and Korea they were sold cheap after the wars. They came with 20-30rd magazines and used by young people for deer hunting and plinking. Colt has sold the SP1 AR15 since 1964 with 20rd magazines. The first AK47’s hit the American market in the ‘60s as well.

[Everyman Jackal]

37. Boot camp June, 1963

we used the M-14 which holds 20 rounds of 7.62 NATO ammo. Iron sights set at 250 yards kill shots at 400 yards aiming at top of the head.

[GulfCoast66]

42. I remember seeing M1 carbines at deer camp as a kid.

But 20-30 round magazines? How do you even move around in the deer stand! The magazines I saw were similar to every other deer rifle.

Even in deer camp today, where I am the only hard core liberal, if someone went out to their stand with a 20 round magazine they would be laughed out of camp!

But my point remains. These large magazines were not common. Are not protected by the 2nd amendment, which I, as a democrat loyal to our platform agree with. Even today, or rather this fall at deer camp, a good many of the people there will own AR15s or variants there of. None will hunt with them. Bolt action, 2-4 magazine capacity rifles are all you will see.

Trying to ban one style of gun is a fools errand. But banning magazines over an agreed upon capacity is not only good policy, but allowed under the Heller ruling.

[aikoaiko]

19. Sometimes the words really do matter. Sometimes not much.

One of my peeves is when people try to conflate semiauto rifles which require you to pull a trigger every time you want to discharge the weapon with fully-auto rifles where a trigger pull and hold can discharge many rounds very fast.

The issue that you're after is high-capacity detachable magazines. In the end, at least from my point of view, is the thing that allows one to operate a firearm for an extended period of time.

But "high-capacity" is a bit relative. The standard detachable magazines in my handguns take 15 - 19 rounds depending on the handgun. 30-round magazines are standard issue with AR15 style rifles. I don't consider them high-capacity. I also have 50-round magazines for glock pistols that I use with a carbine. I do consider that high-capacity.

Having said that, keep in mind that the largest number of deaths at a school from a mass shooting is still VATech. That shooter used a 22lr pistol that took 10-round mags and a 9mm pistol that took 15 round mags. Which is why some people want to get rid of semi-auto weapons all together.

[fescuerescue]

41. Reminds me of many discussions of socialism

Which derailed into a discussion of the definition of socialism.

It's a common tactic because it works.

[dumbcat]

47. Well, it is kind of hard to discuss something with another party

when you have different definitions of what you think you are talking about. And it happens a lot.

When I worked on engineering projects, especially with foreign entities, the first meetings on a new project were usually about terms and definitions of the things we were working on. Sometimes this took days of meetings. It's not always easy.

[BannonsLiver]

48. A lot of gun cultists are trained in obfuscation techniques.

[keithbvadu2]

20. Gunsplainin' - to distract

In a nutshell, ‘splainin’ is an “explanation” which is put forward in the most patronizing way possible. The ‘splainer feels passionately that ou opinion and beliefs outweigh actual lived experience and wishes to inform everyone of this fact. ‘splainers are unfortunately especially common in safe spaces in which the voices of people living in marginalized bodies are centered, because such spaces are threatening to people who find our voices contrary to their worldviews.

http://disabledfeminists.com/2010/02/13/what-is-splainin-and-why-should-i-care/

[Aristus]

21. To add to the confusion, when we trained with the M-16 in the Army,

we used what are called stripper clips to load the magazines which we then inserted into the rifle.

A stripper clip holds a set number of rounds in a manner that brings button candy to mind. One places a slotted piece of metal onto the top of the magazine, slips a stripper clip of ammunition on it, then uses his thumb to push all of the rounds into the magazine in very short time, instead of click-clacking each round into the magazine individually. One can quickly load a large number of magazines this way.

This was because we trained, not only for a high degree of marksmanship, but also to see how fast we could remove an empty magazine, replace it with a full one, then resume firing at the pop-up targets.

So clips and magazines are different from one another, but serve a similar purpose: the rapid re-loading of a rifle.

Full disclosure: I left the use of military weaponry behind when I got out of the military. The only reason to own a rifle like this is in order to kill large numbers of people very rapidly.

[SHRED]

23. So to summarize

I could just say this:

There is no reason we should be selling rounds and weapons of war in this country.

Does that work?

[Aristus]

25. Perfectly.

[aikoaiko]

29. I wouldn't bring up the ammunition because its popular with hunters...

...in bolt action rifles.

[ChubbyStar]

32. I read that Beto said today (about these weapons)

Leave that shit on the battlefield.

[MicaelS]

24. Easy way to remember...

Clips load magazines.

Magazines load guns.

[SHRED]

26. Thanks

[LonePirate]

27. Fuck their terminology. Use your own. Don't let them frame the argument. Gunhumpers are terrorists.

[klook]

30. And don't forget, the killer could've used a hammer

or a screwdriver or a tire iron or a samurai sword or a pencil or a three-hole punch or....

[sir pball]

35. It's any semiautomatic rifle. Or handgun, for that matter.

Magazine capacity is by and large irrelevant. Mass shooters tend to prefer firearms that automatically reload after each shot, negating the need to manually cycle the action. 5, 10, 30 round magazines are irrelevant - reloading is quick and easy either way.

e.g. - The M1 Garand is freely sold, by the government, to anyone who can pass a background check. It doesn't have a detachable magazine, or a pistol grip, but it was the firearm that beat the Germans in Europe and has been described as "the greatest battle implement ever devised."

I'm not going to take a side in this argument, but if you want to massively decrease *all* gun deaths in America, a confiscatory ban of all semiautomatic firearms is probably the best way to start.

[MyNameGoesHere]

40. Haha. Why did you call them out of their cave?

I am happy they tend to stay in their cave.

[SHRED]

43. All I am familiar with is...

....My inherited childhood .22 bolt action and 4-10 shotgun

[Nac Mac Feegle]

44. It's a distraction from the REAL issue

I ask them "If I kick you in the crotch so hard it lifts you afoot off the ground, why do you argue about what color my bootlaces were?"

[JHB]

49. A couple of non-gun-guy sources...

...although frankly I'm fed up with this sort of "you didn't use the right term, therefor you know nothing and have nothing worthwhile to say" deflecting. It's not as if they're such sticklers when they use a definition of "socialism" that's so broad it includes the US for half the 20th century.

From a site for writers:

Summary
Is it magazine or clip? If military history is one of your favorite subjects, you may already know the difference between these two terms, but there are a lot of writers who aren’t so sure.

Here’s a summary of what you need to know,

A clip is a device used to load a magazine.


A magazine is a device or holding area where ammunition is fed into the chamber of a firearm.

full article:
https://writingexplained.org/clip-vs-magazine-difference


Video by a history guy, not a gun guy.

[zackymilly]

50. Do I need to know every knife blade and style to oppose stabbings?

Do I need to know all the popular brands of alcohol or models of cars to oppose drunk driving?
It's ridiculous.

[George II]

51. Are knives designed to kill? Is alcohol distilled or cars manufactured to kill? No in each case.