Man I'm sick of nostalgia for the 1950s

[Recursion]

It wasn't a "good economy" and I would love that zombie idea to die.

The postwar economic boom was based on pushing women out of the formal economy and robbing wealth from African American homeowners and farmers. And for that matter a lot of the prewar New Deal was too. You can't abstract away the racism and sexism because they were the engine that powered white male prosperity during that time. That high wage growth only lasted for as long as the workforce (at least for "good" jobs) was limited entirely to white men; once it was expanded to PoC and women, the latter's wages went up significantly (in that they started to receive wages), but the white male anger at the "stagnation" they felt as the necessary result of that is still echoing today.

All your faves are problematic, and that's doubly true of the alleged golden age. We need to stop pining for it, stop trying to recreate it, and actually come up with our own model for how the economy should look.

[Mariana]

1. Whenever some Republican relative of mine pines for the 1950's

and goes on about how wonderful life was then, I suggest we bring back the income tax code from the 1950's - adjusted for inflation of course, but the same rate structure. Wouldn't that be a great first step to restoring America to its former greatness? They shut up pretty quickly.

[Recursion]

2. Right, but, you hear nostalgia for it on the left too

Usually about the tax rates. But the whole thing was a package.

[GulfCoast66]

3. I don't disagree but think it more complicated.

After WWII every major economic power was in ruins except for the US. And yeah, Canada. So there was a market for everything we made.

And women were not really pushed out of the workforce but we returned to the Norm. We still pay a price for a labor theft from women today. They had 3 professions open to them before and after the war. Teacher, nurse and secretary. And since that was all they were allowed to do, and were fired once they became pregnant, we could pay those professions shit wages. Which we became used to and still do today. In other nations many of those professions,especially teachers were roles filled by males and they remain well paid and respected positions.

And except for the black farmers we did not so much steal their homes rather kept the from reaping the benefits of single family homeownership. Before the depression urban blacks and whites working in the factories of the north and living in the cities actually had similar wealth. But when the suburbs came along the whites fled to the and saw the greatest increase in wealth in human history. Most are dead now, but there were millions of white men who bought homes in the 40’s and 50’s for 8-15K dollars who when retiring with full Pension in the 70’s and 80’s sold them for 300-400K and moved to Florida. African Americans? Oh, they were redlined and not allowed to buy in these suburbs. So I guess you were right. They were robbed of the opportunity.

But you point is valid. The 50’s were great for white men. Everyone else just kept their status quo.

But now the wealth created in that period has almost all been stripped from the families that did well. And rather than blame the corporate bosses and their bought politicians, they blame minorities and women who they now see equaling and often exceeding their position in society.

I like you post. Thank you.

[mopinko]

5. no, black homes were stolen.

because it was next to impossible to get mortgages, many black families bought homes on contract. they had no equity until it was paid in full. if they missed payments along the way, they were evicted w nothing.

there was a recent story about this in chicago, and the loss was enormous.

[Recursion]

8. Black farmers have lost over half their land since 1940

So if you stay on the farm, you lose your farm. If you move to the city, you get redlined. If you move to the suburbs... well, you're not moving to the suburbs, because the people there moved there to get away from you, and they'll throw bricks through your windows and burn crosses on your yard.

[Wounded Bear]

4. It wouldn't be so bad if they were nostalgic about the real time then...

instead of pining for the TV version of the era. They're dreaming about Father Knows Best, not the reality of life back then.

[StarryNite]

32. Exactly!

Their memories are of TV shows not the reality of what it was.

[VOX]

6. True. Racism, sexism, big tobacco, McCarthyism, blacklisting, etc.

The **one** thing I’d like to have back from the 1950s are aspects of its economy: the wealth wasn’t yet concentrated in the hands of a few; CEO compensation was at a sane level, and the dollar/cost of living was favorable.

This includes public K-12 schools that were well funded, and state colleges that were very affordable.

[Recursion]

9. No, no: that's exactly what I'm trying to kill. The economy was everything

You can't just look at the level of taxes and government services and say "I want that", because "that" was entirely predicated on theft of black wealth and keeping women out of the formal job market.

[jberryhill]

12. Segregated army followed by the GI Bill

Virtually a subsidy for having been white.

[Recursion]

13. Yup, and the USDA actively expropriated black land to give to white farmers

And the FHA crowded nonwhite people into specific areas, and then refused to let them leverage their home values. Farmland and houses are about 85% of white wealth today.

[radius777]

19. Exactly, it was a caste system based on free labor

of women, blacks, gays etc who were kept out of sight/mind (alot like how undocumented workers are treated today).

The old Dem party was the party of the KKK as much as it was FDR and his programs.

The white left looked the other way to hold onto the Solid South, excusing away racism etc on the basis of economic anxiety, just as some of the white left does with Trumpism today.

[Recursion]

25. Oh wow I hadn't thought of that

alot like how undocumented workers are treated today

Oh wow. Hadn't made that connection. Great point; thank you.

[Wounded Bear]

33. Well that's why so many former white Dems switched to the Repub party after the Civil Rights Era...

It's how Nixon got away with the Southern Strategy.

I could live with 1950's economics if they applied equally to all. There are a lot of valid points above. FDR was not good at racial issues, at all. Hell, he jailed Japanese-Americans based entirely on race. The military was almost entirely segregated until 1947. Racism and segregation was rampant, and not just in the South.

[brush]

39. And many of the "New Deal" programs excluded black people.

[Wounded Bear]

50. Yeah, kind of my point about FDR...

his working class programs definitely were not applied equitably when according to race.

[BamaRefugee]

52. Something I've wondered about re:Japanese internment. How safe would they have been living in

general society at that time? I imagine LOTS of arson, lynch mobs, public attacks and beatings, and probably murders, businesses boycotted out of existence, etc.
Not in any way condoning it!
I live 2 miles from Santa Anita racetrack, which was a huge internment camp. Ironically, now Arcadia, California is a HUGE and thriving majority Asian city, although back in the 40s,50s, and 60s there were strict covenants against Asians (or any non-whites) buying homes there.

[appalachiablue]

57. I know that during WWI German Americans were attacked violently

esp. in public, as well as 'German' dachshund dogs and more.

It was so bad that the many of the people in this category changed their names to more Anglo sounding surnames.

Items like 'sauerkraut' were relabeled as 'liberty cabbage' and more.

But unlike the Japanese, many German Americans could 'pass,' assimilate as Ango because of common northern Europe appearances.

I know little about the horrors of Japanese internment but how awful it was, and what a shame for them and America.

[brush]

65. I'd be willing to bet Japanese Americans of that time would've chosen their freedom...

over internment, no matter what the risk. They also would've chosen to not lose their homes, businesses, cars, etc.

[brush]

43. Please. That was for whites only. And what's also not mentioned is there were recessions...

during that era. It wasn't all wine and roses.

[brush]

7. Yep, for a brief slice of the 20th centuries job opportunities were plentiful for white males...

but it didn't last as long as nostalgia suggests. as job ompetition from black and brown men and women of all colors was non-existent—the pool of good, high-paying jobs were reserved for white men.

Once the competition for good jobs was gradually opened for others, well of course it wasn't so easy for white males to always get the good jobs. Resentment from this time is still being felt and the blame placed on the "other"— POCs, when it should be placed on corporate heads who keep shipping jobs overseas, allowed to btw, by complicit, repug-dominated Congresses. And note that the recessions always happen when a complicit repug is in the White House. Dems get in and dig us out.

And when it's looked at objectively, it only lasted from the end of WWll (all the Rosie the Riveters where kicked out to the curb and back to being housewives), and white males took those good, family-supporting jobs back. I really shouldn't say back because before the war there was the many-years-long Great Depression where many were out of work.

So the rose-colored-glasses, 50s nostalgia didn't last that long at all, and there were resessions during that time too, the late '50s for instance.

[Demonaut]

10. interesting, your conjecture?

[ConnorMarc]

11. I can dig it.

So much so that this is the first time I rec'd a thread.

[myohmy2]

14. you don't love the '50s?

...or The Beaver?

...ya gotta love the '50s and The Beaver...

...they'll take away your citizenship...

...

[Coventina]

34. People forget how progressive that show actually was.

First program to show a toilet on screen.

Tackled "taboo" subjects like animal cruelty, child abuse, and divorce.

Showed a wife that openly disagreed with the "man of the house" and often called him out on issues.

Given the time, it was remarkably progressive.

[Texasgal]

15. There is no decade that is perfect

for anyone.

I think it's what you make it.

[raging moderate]

16. .

Last edited Thu Aug 15, 2019, 07:34 AM - Edit history (1)

My family went hungry a lot in the fifties, and there were no school lunches in our grade schools, let alone free ones. We went without dental care a lot, and we all wound up with massive cavities. We had decent medical care only because our family doctor was a real saint. It was a great period for families in which everyone was healthy, intelligent, good-looking, and white. If you missed out on any little thing, you were sunk. And the social structure was very rigid, with very rigid, narrow, prescribed roles, grooming requirements, and social customs.

Incidentally, this family doctor was Dr. Julius Rhodes, on the North side of Chicago. If you are related to him, then I want you to know that members of my family have been wishing wonderful happiness for you and everyone else connected to this extraordinary man, for many decades. And probably he was just as wise and loving and effective a doctor with thousands of other people. Thank you, Dr. Julius Rhodes!

[llmart]

44. That was my experience growing up in the 50's also.

My father did not serve in WWII because of a medical condition, so all those benefits that went to white men were unavailable to us. My parents never owned a home in their lives. They were always renters. I never had anything of my own that wasn't already handed down by one of my older siblings or cousins. There were many times there wasn't enough to eat. None of us went to dentists and yes, I have plenty of silver in my mouth to show for that. I believe I went to a doctor only once or twice growing up.

The shows from the 50's that were on TV at the time only pointed out to me how much different my life was from what was portrayed on the screen.

[wasupaloopa]

17. I agree. I was born a white male in 1946. I was aware that I had privileges that

Blacks and women did not have. I grew up in Dayton, OH which was a segregated city.

As a kid I rode my bike to the “west side”. We were poor but they were poorer. My dad was a factory worker and most of his coworkers were racists. He worked at NCR which had an employee recreational park for white employees only.

I learned what you are saying at an early age.

[jaysunb]

18. Movies and television shaped the mindset of that Era and cast the die for the future.

One only need to spend some time watching and you'll see how we arrived at this point.

[cabot]

20. Agreed...I think MadTv summed it up best

[underpants]

26. 👀

Marking to watch later

[NCLefty]

21. Those people will be gone soon.

No avoiding that.

[Vinca]

22. I'm glad I grew up in a time when a walk in the school yard didn't mean potential death.

There are good and bad things of all decades. Want to talk the disco years? LOL.

[cwydro]

38. Me too.

Though I was more in the 60s, I walked to school, went out on Halloween with my friends without parents, played in the local park every day without escort, spent all day every day outside - never even watched TV until maybe 6th grade.

I had a great childhood.

[RobinA]

23. Well, You Can't

pick and chose your populations anymore than than the "the '50's were great" people can. If you want to change perceptions you have to account for everybody involved. My Grandfathers, lower middle class white guys before the war, one with no high school diploma and one with some college, went on to far surpass their fathers, became solidly middle class, built homes in the 'burbs, helped their kids, and left enough money for their wives to live comfortably until their deaths (one at 101). Many, many of their peers did the same. Today, those same white guys wouldn't be able to get the jobs they had, and if they did get them they wouldn't be paid enough to accomplish what they accomplished. So yes, that's what a good economy looks like. Both Grandfathers worked for utilities, which after the war were expanding by leaps and bounds. That's what an evolving country looks like.

Were some people excluded, given a hard time and otherwise not able to benefit? Absolutely. You can solve the problems that those people had by by dealing with the problems directly, not by trashing other people and denying that the economy was any good. Wouldn't it be better to have that great economy cranking along now so that when blacks/women got the opportunity to join the mainstream workforce there was something there that they could use? Nowadays blacks, the current version of my Grandfathers, woman, EVERYBODY in the middle class, is struggling to do what my Grandfathers accomplished by being at the right place and the right time - a booming economy.

So empirically, it WAS a good economy. Yes, everybody couldn't benefit through no fault of there own. But let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater by saying everything was bad when only some things were bad.

[MineralMan]

24. Having grown up in the 1950s, I have no nostalgia for that period.

Since I was a kid at the time, born in 1945, there were tons of good things happening. To me, but not to everyone. As I moved into high school in 1959, I began to see what was wrong with the 50s. Now, looking back, I see little that makes me wax nostalgic at all.

Longing for the past is a symptom of not understanding that past.

[MicaelS]

27. The reason women got into the "formal" economy..

Was because the men were off fighting the war. When the war was won many of the jobs vanished. Do you realistically think that the men who were off fighting and dying should have just sat back so the women could keep the jobs?

[virgogal]

31. I was a working woman in the 50s and jobs WERE plentiful....good jobs.

[Yavin4]

28. The only real hope is for the people nostalgic for the 1950s to die off.

Sad as it may seem, but that's the only real path to creating a more equitable and just economy. You will never convince people who benefited from that time to acknowledge their privilege nor will you erase the cultural memory of that time which was reinforced by TV.

[RobinA]

45. You Somehow Think

that everyone who knows what a booming economy looks like being gone is going to result in a great economy? That's the path to nihilism. The very thing that creeps its way across our country as we speak.

[Yavin4]

54. As the OP stated, the "booming economy of the 1950s" is largely a myth

It was built on the back of excluding non-Whites and women from any economic benefits. So, no, people from the 1950s really do not have a full understanding of what a just and equitable economy looks like. They only know that their White daddy or uncle was able to get a middle class paying factory job with little or no competition from women or any other non-White person.

[bigbrother05]

29. That's a big reason Unions fell from grace

As the Civil Rights movement and Brown v Board of Education took hold, the entrance of more minorities and women into factory/union jobs meant the Powers-That-Be started to eat away at their reach.

It was much easier to convince Southern states to enact Right-to-Work if a union meant a black man got a fair chance. Then big corps (think Auto companies) moved production to RTW states to undercut unions in the Rust Belt.

BTW, the term Rust Belt was coined when heavy manufacturing started to move South in earnest, not because of off-shoring.

[Metatron]

42. Absolutely correct n/t

[RobinA]

47. The Powers That Be

hated workers long before they included a critical mass of blacks or women. That's why we have/had unions. The big union employers aren't nearly as active anywhere in this country anymore. North, south, up or down. The unions were never able (except in a few cases) to make the jump from heavy industry to other types of business.

[elocs]

30. Just think, someday there will be those who consider now to be the "good old days".

Scary thought.

I was a little kid in the 50s and any nostalgia I might have for that time has to do with that,
a time when my worries were few.

[Recursion]

37. Rightfully so. This is objectively the best time to be alive in human history

[Democrats_win]

35. By 1960 U.S. cars and steel were not competitive in world markets.

So much for the 1950s being a golden age--it was an age in which we became fat, lazy and poorly managed. Quality was horrendous and our international competitors were on the rise.

In the early 1960s big steel begged JFK for tariffs on importanted steel. Then, instead of retooling, they engaged in mergers and acquisitions. Thus by the 1973 Arab oil boycott that gutted U.S. automakers, steel companies began closing mills like crazy. The law that was used by JFK then is being used today by Trump now to impose his ridiculous tariffs. Some U.S. "mini-mill" steel companies are relatively competitive, but the large mills are suffering.

Because of tariffs that helped Harley Davidson in 1983, economists generally believe that tariffs can help individual companies but can't help entire industries. The tariffs gave Harley the opportunity to improve while the 1960s tariffs just allowed U.S. steel to collect short-term profits.

[BannonsLiver]

36. I've always thought the 50s were a weird creepy time to be alive

The cars were creepy and ugly, the music was awful, the movies and tv shows were terrible and the clothes were also very strange. I detest pink which seemed to have been a big color in the 50s not unlike fluorescents in the 80s (which I also find hideous). And that’s not even including all the nutty politics and racism that were emblematic at the time. The whole era has always given me the willies like some people have with clowns.

[Initech]

41. My dad never listens to music beyond the 60s channel.

And I have heard a *LOT* of 1950s music because of it, and if you sit and analyze the lyrics, there's a lot of super creepy stuff said in those songs that would never be allowed today.

[RobinA]

48. I Find The '50's

to be a mixed bag. I was born at the end of them, so remember nothing first hand. However, pink is my favorite color and I like the pastel colored cars. I hate the music, am not crazy about the movies, and the clothing would probably be fine if I were used to it. I love full skirts, hate pencil pants and skirts. Can't speak for the racism, but in my nearest city, Philadelphia, blacks were better off than they are today. It was more segregated (not by much), but economically the jobs were here.

[Initech]

40. Humanity has evolved a lot since then.

Conservatives obviously haven't. Being stuck in a time frame that you think was the greatest time ever (but really wasn't) is no way to live a life.

[RobinA]

49. No Timeframe

is equally good for everyone. Always cursing the time frame you live in because it isn't great for everyone is no way to live life either.

[Runningdawg]

46. I didn't see it mentioned so I will add this perspective - they liked obedient women.

[raccoon]

60. And if you are a woman and had an abusive husband, unless your family was very supportive

And if you were a woman and had an abusive husband, unless your family was very supportive,
You were SOL

[Thomas Hurt]

51. The conservative's idea of the 50's is a myth.

The good old days ideological bull sh*t they have been spreading.

[Wounded Bear]

53. Half based on sitcoms, half based on Stepford-based fantasies...

[Yavin4]

55. Incels believe that they're owed June Cleaver

And they're willing to shoot up a public place because they didn't get her.

[OnlinePoker]

56. Don't forget a lack of birth control forced women into multiple child situations

With few well-paid jobs available if they were single mothers, they ended up in poverty or forced to stay in loveless, abusive marriages.

[raccoon]

61. A-fricking-men!

[leftyladyfrommo]

66. No well paid jobs for women.

Single women with children were demonized.

And single women getting pregnant were whores. The young women went to special homes for unwed mothers. They were pretty much forced to give up their babies for adoption.

They wore the Red Letter A for the rest of their lives.

[Act_of_Reparation]

62. I'm also sick of nostalgia for the 1960s, 1970s, and 1980's.

[raccoon]

63. That's when I was a kid. I love the music (Rock n roll that is)

And boy we had some real good home cooking, Lots of fried stuff, good cakes etc.

On the other hand, everybody smoked, just about.It’s a wonder we didn’t all die from emphysema.

And there was no air conditioning in homes or cars. I remember drug stores had it and seemed like movie theaters had it. (At least in early 1960s they did.)But that was it. If you have never lived somewhere in the south without air-conditioning, I can tell you you don’t want to.

The average house was much smaller. The average family lived in a house with one bathroom and most kids had to share a bedroom with one or more siblings.
I envy people in generations after me that had their own room.

[bobbieinok]

64. Super high tax rates also fueled the good economy!! Killed by Reagan