Young, intelligent, no college, and want a good job?

[ret5hd]

I'll give you a few pointers. It's no walk-in-the-park, but I'mretty sure you will end with a good career.

Machinist. Places are begging for them.
Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe by the time you do all this, it will be too late. But that isn't what I'm seeing.

You need to be spatially oriented. Find a beginners job at a small job shop. Probably gonna be a sweatshop, but that's how all us old timers started. There's no free ride.

Learn how to run a manual lathe. Learn how to single- point threads and to chase threads. Learn how the tracer works. Get good at it.

While you are doing this, learn the machinists handbook (bible). Learn how to figure surface feet per minute, bolt hole patterns, feeds, speeds, and how just listen and tell when something is cutting right.

Graduate to a mill. Learn how to keep your fingers away from the tool. If you are lucky, you will do this without losing a digit. Keep reading that bible and learn shop trig. Learn how to set up a sine plate and a super-spacer.

Move on up to CNC machines and learn to program. Study how cutter comp works and how tool offsets work with cutter comp.

This should take you 5-10 yrs, and maybe 2-3 different employers. By this time, you should be capable of making $20+ hr ( today). Spend another few years getting good at 5-axis stuff, and $30 hr is out there to be had.

Learn programming and CAD/CAM and even more is available.

It will be hot, dirty, and frustrating. You will throw things occasionally. And sometimes...just sometimes... you will see the art in it. You will finish a job and look around to see if anybody else has noticed how good you are...and sometimes somebody will.


this is a somewhat lame response to this read:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021236537

I invite other tradesmen (welders, electricians, plumbers, etc) to add their experience.

[pnwmom]

1. I've known a lot of unemployed Boeing and contractor machinists over the years.

There's no good career that's a safe choice anymore, but this is as good as any to consider now.

[ret5hd]

2. You are right, but...

like me, they are all getting old. Places aren't finding any "true" replacement machinists. They can find "button pushers" (CNC operators that have no concept/appreciation/knowledge for what they are doing) at best. No one is entering the field with an expectation pf making it a career.

[JaneyVee]

3. K&R! Skilled tradesmen & Unionism are America's only hope.

[ret5hd]

4. Proud Union Member for 27 yrs here!

[reformist2]

5. There are always a few lifeboats... that doesn't solve the problem that the Titanic has sunk!

Ther are not enough good jobs to go around.

And to be honest, I don't think there are enough jobs - good or bad - to go around.

[ret5hd]

6. Well, you are right there.

Just throwing a little life JACKET to those it might help.

[Zalatix]

21. A little morphine to ease the pain as America bleeds out, I suppose.

[ret5hd]

41. Palliative care is of much use to the battered and bleeding.

If you have a suggestion as to how I should handle this subject, I would be glad to listen.

[Zalatix]

43. You're doing the best any one person can do.

The problem is systemic, and it's going to take a lot of people to fix that.

We need to abolish those FTA's, start slapping tariffs on cheap labor countries, raise the minimum wage like Australia did, that sort of thing.

[ret5hd]

44. I agree.

Thank you for the input.

[Quantess]

7. I really hope you are right!

Go Craftsmen/women!

[ret5hd]

9. To tell you the truth, ...

I don't know if I am right or not. I just know that it has provided me a better living than many of my college educated peers, and as I stated above, employers are having a very difficult time finding young people that are interested in these types of trades.

[Quantess]

10. But it is worth looking into.

You don't have to be 100% certain when giving suggestions about what might turn out to be a good career. The individual has to look into it themeselves.
I know a woman my age who is an upholsterer, and a man my age who restores furniture. With cheap (sweat shop labor) furniture that abounds, of course the demand for these trades has gone down, but some demand is still there.

[OriginalGeek]

23. Funny you mention that

not to get the thread too far off topic but my wife and I were looking at restoring/re-upholstering my grandpa's couches. I'm 48 years old and I cannot remember a time when he didn't have these (actually smaller than couches - I guess it's two love-seats?). I know I've been bouncing on them in one way or another for most of my life.

They are the most comfortable pieces of furniture I've ever been on - but the fabric is hideously ugly. Some kind of ancient burnt orange plaid that just don't go with anything. We just started looking into getting them recovered...then again, I probably should get the OK from Grandpa first...maybe he's kept them all these years because he likes that color...

I figure if they've lasted this long they must be pretty great quality furniture so I'd hate to get rid of them...but gawds, that color...lol

[Fumesucker]

8. I have a friend that is a truly talented machinist..

Steve makes custom tools and prototypes for orthopedic surgeons mostly, high precision gadgets on a one-off basis, really creative stuff that requires communicating directly with the end customer, the surgeons.

He told me recently that he's never made more than $50K/year in his life and he's getting on toward retirement age now.

[ret5hd]

11. Well, all i can say is he's doing it wrong.

I don't want to talk about how much i make or how much that other guy makes. I am willing to say I make more than many of my college educated peers and have been able to keep beans (and the more than occasional steak ) on the table for for me and my family for over 35 yrs on this trade.

My post was offered in good faith. This trade has been good to me. If some young person sees it and thinks it might be a good fit for them, I will be happy.

[Fumesucker]

16. What part of the country are you in?

This is the mostly non unionized, low wage deep South..

One of the benefits of Steve's job is that he sets up the machines to do something and his employers seem never to have minded him working on his own projects as long as his work got done which it did..

I think part of his job hunting has been getting that sort of position because he always has some kind of personal project(s) going on at work and has since I met him over thirty years ago.

[ret5hd]

19. Oklahoma and Texas

[HiPointDem]

12. plumber. you can't outsource it and you can do it on the side even when you can't find a 'real'

job.

friend of mine, brilliant, with a degree in philosophy, went that route with good results.

[whathehell]

13. Thanks for sharing....My friend's husband was a machinist for 20 + years and it paid him well. n/t.

[riderinthestorm]

14. Okay, I'll plug my field - the horse trade

Here's another field where an eager apprentice can find a living if they're willing to work hard and learn the ropes from the ground up. A college degree doesn't matter at all but you have to understand this is a lifestyle - most of us don't take vacations - our lives revolve 24/7 around the horses and just having the rare job doing this for a living means it IS the vacation.

You'll start as a stable hand, mucking shit, feeding, turning out, putting up hay. Your feet will get stomped, you'll get rope burns on your hands, you'll come home every day tired and dirty. You'll start out at $10/hour plus weekly lessons on one of the owner's horses.

Gradually, as you learn more and gain experience handling and riding, you'll move up to being a groom. Some people stop here - cleaning tack, saddling and bridling, cooling out and warming up, bathing, dressing wounds. A good groom makes $15/hour. You are basically the trainer's slave and do all the dirty work but the horses love you. You are their best friend and they amply reward you with their love. Competition grooms are the most valuable since they know how to keep a horse in "show shape" with braiding, tails, fetlocks trimmed and that perfect gloss plus all the rest. If you are a competition groom you typically have a free place to live in a group apartment and bennies.

Keep riding on your own, take more lessons, learn to drive the tractors, how to order the feed and what to feed and why, how to administer medications, keep the place in good order with happy employees doing their chores productively (because you HAVE done every single thing they are doing from grooming to scrubbing toilets) and you are in position to become a barn manager. Usually $35k +/- and a house to live in and free board for your horse. It usually includes bennies and vacation time.

Want more? Keep taking lessons, competing, training and begin showing. If you do well, you can begin your career as a trainer - teaching and training others and their horses. Expect to be paid between $40 - $50/hour and you are your own boss. You'll still work 6 days/week but you make your own time. The sky's the limit on how much you want to make really. Training videos? Day clinics? Kiddie camps? Its all possible.

Ultimately, if you're good enough, you can turn pro. You are paid the big bucks riding other people's horses, buying, selling, training, competing. Most pros make enough to buy their own barns and have a staff of grooms, stable hands and a barn manager. National and international travel are the good perks of a professional rider's life - but that 6 day/week grind is beginning to get tough. Good thing you have excellent grooms to do the maintenance and conditioning work. $100 - $200k isn't out of the question and you can afford to take vacations, raise a family and take some days off.

Other related horse fields: become a blacksmith. Its very hard on your back and your body. The apprenticeship "breaks" more than a fair few who try their hand at this but its absolutely possible to be earning $60 - 80k within 10 years without a college degree if you can get over the initial pain. My equine massage therapist makes $150/horse for an hour's work.

[ret5hd]

15. Wow. Good addition to this post.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

17. After watching my oldest son go to college and then work for $12 an hour

My middle son is a carpenter apprentice and my youngest is sticking with painting/construction. The oldest is now planing to re-inlist (Air Guard this time) to become a mechanic.

I couldn't be more proud of all of them My Gramp would be too, he always told us if we could build or fix something ourselves we'd be far ahead of everyone else in a pinch.

[AverageJoe90]

18. Sounds nice but I probably couldn't handle it. nt

[ret5hd]

22. it isn't for everyone.

It can be boring, and oily, and hot, and smelly. For those without an appreciation of the hazards, it can be dangerous, even life-threateningly so.

But if you find it is something you love, you buy a small machine of your own and do things like this:


or this:

[riderinthestorm]

24. Beautiful! My grandfather was a machinest for Bell Labs - built the first transistor from the design

built most of the computers used for the emerging phone era and too many other specialized instruments designed and used by the guys at Bell Labs. A genius craftsman who also loved to "tinker" in so many other ways since he "knew" tools - stained glass, furniture building - hell he even built his own house in Summit NJ. Its still there - a beauty he built by himself!

[ret5hd]

28. Thank you.

To be mentioned in the same paragraph as people such as your grandfather is an honor.

I am sure he felt as I do that working can be such a Zen thing...focused and relaxed and confident.

I am glad my trade has given me that.

[riderinthestorm]

33. Looking through all of his paperwork after he died, he always listed his profession as "toolmaker"

In order to make some of the instruments required for the Bell Labs designs, he had to make the instruments to make the instruments!

Wild.

The machinests in places like this - and other high skill areas like surgical tools as mentioned upthread - are an integral part of the design team. The engineers create the design for the product but somebody has to make that prototype and get it to work.

That's a machinest. But I'll never forget my Papa's perpetual self-designation as a "toolmaker".

[Quantess]

20. I looked into becoming a denture "artist"

(for about an hour, not very long, I admit)
A community college where I lived offered a program. But then I had a conversation with someone who advised me against it, since he knew of someone who went through the program and could not find a job. But it could be promising for someone who is skilled with fine detail. The senior population is increasing.

I also knew someone who went through a program learning how to make neon signs, but the work was not enough to pay the bills.

[Brickbat]

25. Railroads, too.

[ret5hd]

26. Please tell us more.

[Brickbat]

34. The retirement wave is definitely hitting railroads, and if you're not afraid of work and can

learn quickly, it's a great job. Good points include excellent pay and (if you're union) benefits; bad points include a schedule that can be hard on families if you're not ready for it and difficult work conditions (most railroads run 24/7/365).

[shanti]

27. when my ex

was 20, back in 1973, he got hired as an apprentice machinist. we were ecstatic, as we both realized that machinists were very well paid, even then. however, the first week on the job, the ex cut his hand on a lathe, and that was that. they did fire him. that was one of many jobs he held over the years.

my cousin, however, is 57 and a machinist. he makes a very good living at it too, and is set to retire in a couple of years.

[SoCalDem]

29. My husband's company is hiring now for draftsmen/draftswomen...CAD

they pay well and are a great company.. there are jobs available, and not all need college.

[ret5hd]

32. Tell us of the possibilites of advancement...

and a range of wages. Drafting and blueprint reading can be very difficult ( i do both now and it is for me) and it woud seem that it would pay well.

[SoCalDem]

35. I don;t know the wage, but the company has been in business for 40+ years

and is one of the few around anymore who are union (the shop/installers) and pay well for the office people too

[ibegurpard]

30. god ANY contractor where I am...

please! I can't find anyone to show up on time to do anything...plumbing, sprinkers, repairs, roofing. I keep telling my nephews they need to become plumbers...

[lib2DaBone]

31. Someday soon.. the pig heads in Congress will realize that China is not our friend....

China's Navy in the South China sea already dwarfs the United Sates.

We have shipped critical manufacturing and computer knowledge to China.. and got NOTHING in return.

Soon.. the Politicians will be BEGGING for machinists and tool and die people.. to build tanks and planes... to save their sorry ass... and there will not be any available.. because all the old guys have retired and the young people were not taught the trade.

Washington, D.C. is a ship-of-fools.

[Scuba]

36. "China's Navy in the South China sea already dwarfs the United Sates. "

Ummm, you want to double check that?

[Zalatix]

45. I hear that. But I do see them outsizing our navy... given time.

We're complacent enough that it'll happen in the future.

[Scuba]

46. How many nuclear powered aircraft carriers does China have? How many nuke subs?

Answer is zero of each.

[Zalatix]

47. I said... in the future.

In 1776 we also had a shitty navy to speak of when compared to the British Empire. Look at us now.

The other problem is we keep finding Chinese-made shit in our military hardware.

[Scuba]

37. Great post, great thread. Thanks to all.

[Javaman]

38. My Dad was a machinist.

it's tough work, but very rewarding. He worked primarily with metal. He had the scars to prove it, but he was a genius at creating stuff from scratch. He could make just about anything you could dream up.

[quaker bill]

39. I apprenticed and now make jewelry

I do it the old fashioned way, one piece at a time, hand forged and constructed. It generally does not yet pay as well as my college degree, but I have had a few hours where it has been vastly more profitable. I started the business just before the bust, so I am not concerned that the payoff is a bit slow. It is improving with time.

[abelenkpe]

40. FIL was a machinist

Immigrated here from Ireland. Union man. Bought a home and raised two kids. One is a lawyer for the state, the other a fullbright award winner and software engineer. Funny his college educated kids struggle in this economy. No job is safe anymore.

[alcibiades_mystery]

42. Go straight to plumbing trade

Diligence in plumbing reaps rewards.

I'd also say there's a route through electrician, either through a union or as an independent.

I'd agree that machinist is very strong now. I like that you move toward digital work as well.

Great post, by the way. The best thing about all these trades is that you have to have an itch for perfection, for getting it right and doing it right. If there's something that is not taught sufficiently in school it is that: getting it right and doing it right, regardless of content. Term paper on 14th century Italian peasant revolution for a history class in college: get it right and do it right. Attaching a new drain to old plumbing fixtures in a home renovation? Get it right and do it right. The people I have met who are quality people, in all walks of life, electrician to full professor and endowed chair all have that value: get it right and do it right. An itch for perfection, and a bit of humility. This is the main evil of capitalism, if you ask me - it alienates people from their own labor power, such that they have no particular inherent interest in getting it right and doing it right. Their interest is extrinsic by definition in a capitalist economy: it has to be "incentivized" from outside - obviously a frequent failure.

It's why craft will always have friction with capital.

[ret5hd]

49. Thanks for all that...

I do love "doing it right".

[zeemike]

48. That is a great suggestion...but I have another.

Be self employed.
And the easy way to do that if you have mechanical skills is the repair business...or even plumbing and electrician.
It does not require a building or anything but a phone and answering machine and a corner of your living space for an office...and of course a work truck with a sign on it with your business name...and tools of course and a business licence which is usually less than 100 bucks in most places.
You will not make a lot of money....so if you are looking to drive a Hummer and vacation with Mitt Rmoney forget it...don't even try if your objective it to make a lot of money...cause it will lead to failure.
But if you want to be free and work when you want and have no boss other than your woman...or partner, then this is the way to go...
And if you are not patient then don't think about it...because the way to succeed in this business takes time to get known in the community where you are...but once known and trusted...and that is very important...you will have a steady business that can make you a living for as long as you can work at it....and if you are honest, and truthful and don't try to bullshit your customers they will willing and happily wright you a check when you give them the bill....and call you again and tell their friends....cause a good repairman is hard to find.

I say this from personal experience because back about 1980 I was working shift work at a manufacturing plant and I met a guy that was an appliance repairman and had his own business...and i was bitching about my job and he said the obvious...why don't you quit?...well I did and he took me on as a helper and I learned it all from him....a few years later I went out on my own and I never went back to working for wages again...it was the best thing I ever did for myself.

[ret5hd]

52. Excellent!

Good pointers.

[lumberjack_jeff]

50. The good machinists I know are gifted, and specialized.

They've been taking apart and fixing things since they were kids.

I'm not saying that you can't learn, but if you are not mechanically sympathetic you won't thrive.

Also, one of those gifted mechanics I know is now off work until at least December because his hand was severely injured in a lathe.

Yes, you can make a living wage, but it's not safe and it's not always pleasant.

[ret5hd]

53. It is too safe...

As long as you are always paying attention.

I know it is not always safe. I have seen people come ----thiiiiis---- close to cutting themselves in half. I have seen people break their arm, lose a finger, etc. Fortunately, everyone I have worked with has gone home at the end of the day, But it is definitely a matter of being aware of your surroundings and being aware of what, exactly, you are doing.

Fortunately, the larger machines where you are more apt to actuallly kill yourself are also the machines that you are LEAST apt to run as a beginner.

[riderinthestorm]

55. Exactly the same with my profession. If you aren't paying attention, its deadly

That's why the apprenticeship lasts so long.

You must become skilled in the nuances of the craft. It always looks sooooo simple to the beginner/novice but that's the dangerous phase - they don't know enough to be scared.

Learning a trade/craft means a person is immersed in the culture AND begins to understand those dynamics - its as intense as a med school training in the beginning but (hopefully) if the student "fits", then the sky's the limit and only they can limit themselves.

[Freddie]

51. Career/technical high schools

Are an under-appreciated treasure, different and better than the "vo-tech" schools of old.
Caveat: I work for a regional technical high school.
Our graduates of the machine-tech program ALL have job offers before they graduate. Local employers donate to the program and give $$ awards to the most promising graduates.
Another way career/technical schools differ now is they prepare students for college as well as a career, and quite a few of our graduates go to college.

[ret5hd]

54. I am glad you responded and verified my impressions. Thank you.

[Stinky The Clown]

56. That's the trade that kept our family in the middle calss

My dad was a machinist.

[senseandsensibility]

57. I could never do what you suggest because I just don't have it in me.

I am not mechanically inclined, and many people aren't. I admire those (like my father) who are. I had to find another career path that fit my abilities. It would be great if we could all do that.

[riderinthestorm]

58. I believe the OP was trying to start a convo on different options

Its true that these won't be a good fit for many but I'm guessing the OP's goal was to begin a conversation about alternatives in our bleak economy, for anyone who CAN fit....

[yewberry]

59. I work in an agency with many skilled tradespeople, and I concur.

In the past 6 months or so, we've hired 3 machinists (1 inside, 2 outside-- CNC is too fancy for us-- we're old school), a pipefitter, 2 welders, & 3 insulation/asbestos abatement workers. We're currently short a machinist (outside) and a carpenter.

We have an aging workforce and we have real trouble replacing the trades positions. Our biggest problem is that we're a state agency, and only pay $25+ per hour for journey-level-- the state legislature sets our pay, and that's a serious pay cut for people coming from the private sector, so attrition is fairly high. And there are so few people going into the trades that the local colleges and tech schools cancel training programs constantly due to low enrollment.

So yeah-- machinists, welders, insulation workers, carpenters, sheet-metal workers, pipefitters, electricians, boilermakers... there's a real need for people to fill these jobs.

[ret5hd]

60. Kick for the young and intelligent...

and for the other tradesmen (welders, electricians, plumbers, etc) to add their experience.