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StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 07:37 AM Sep 2019

Can you state in 1 sentence the specific collusion crime the Mueller Report found Trump committed?

I can't. There's lots of there there, but no clean, direct line that can be explained simply and concisely.

But I can describe in one sentence at least one crime Trump committed vis a vis Ukraine: the president of the United States asked the President of Ukraine to provide him dirt on a political opponent in return for his performance of an official act. Bam.

That's a major difference. BUT the Mueller report wasn't for naught. It provides a boatload of information that fills in gaps and backs up the Ukraine narrative. It just was too difficult to pull a narrative out of it alone.

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Can you state in 1 sentence the specific collusion crime the Mueller Report found Trump committed? (Original Post) StarfishSaver Sep 2019 OP
And it provided the PATTERN blm Sep 2019 #1
That's easy, I can do it in 3 words. GreenEyedLefty Sep 2019 #2
Obstruction of Justice is a crime, but you did not describr what Trump did StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #4
Not describing in one sentence is not the problem. MrsCoffee Sep 2019 #57
I did't say it wasn't good enough StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #60
He welcomed foreign assistance to help him win the election. meadowlander Sep 2019 #73
That's conclusory StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #76
Not really. meadowlander Sep 2019 #83
Also M said they didn't pursue certain angles because "OLC" dawg day Sep 2019 #79
And the scope of the investigation (which we still haven't seen) meadowlander Sep 2019 #84
We haven't seen the Mueller report Botany Sep 2019 #3
That, too. StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #5
true uponit7771 Sep 2019 #45
"They" have worked very hard to sell us that: Botany Sep 2019 #47
+1, dems should start working with the judicial branch to put people in jail now. The issue now uponit7771 Sep 2019 #50
Ever since Nixon and Reagan a part of the republican party/right wing folks have been .... Botany Sep 2019 #54
👍🏼, Nixon ended his term with a 24% approval rating it should have been - 4 uponit7771 Sep 2019 #55
They didn't find any collusion with conspiracy in the Mueller investigation... kentuck Sep 2019 #6
Russia? If you can hear me please look into Clintons e mail.? pwb Sep 2019 #7
But that's not, in and of itself, collusion StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #14
You speak for most people? pwb Sep 2019 #16
I'm not speaking for anyone StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #24
I'm this instance, they do. TidalWave46 Sep 2019 #26
"for most people" He literally asked them to acquire emails that are supposed to be secured. NCLefty Sep 2019 #85
That's neither collusion or conspiracy StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #86
"Most people" didn't hear anything except that he was not in any trouble. #barr NCLefty Sep 2019 #89
Obstructed justice at least ten times. Funtatlaguy Sep 2019 #8
That doesn't answer the question StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #10
I think the clearer "collusion" part is hidden within some of the redacted stuff involving Stone. BumRushDaShow Sep 2019 #9
That could all be true. But if it takes this much explaining, no wonder people didn't jump to impeac StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #12
Exactly BumRushDaShow Sep 2019 #18
Yes - but the public seems to be grasping this one StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #19
Yes because... BumRushDaShow Sep 2019 #23
and therein lies the difficulty choie Sep 2019 #11
I don't think they framed it wrong. I don't think it was capable of being framed simply StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #13
"Dems focused on criminality and not Trump's unethical behavior" BumRushDaShow Sep 2019 #20
Yes! StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #27
I think this issue of "ethics" really hit home to me BumRushDaShow Sep 2019 #37
I think the big difference mercuryblues Sep 2019 #15
Yes StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #17
"the Ukraine scandal is happening in real time" BumRushDaShow Sep 2019 #38
We all know he's guilty, Dems have been saying it since before the report was even delivered. hughee99 Sep 2019 #21
We don't "all know he's guilty." StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #28
By "we" I mean the people who are going to actually have a say hughee99 Sep 2019 #32
Many of those in that '"we" knew that it didn't matter what "we" thought if not enough "theys" StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #34
I was reading all along that the Mueller report wasn't going to be what people thought ismnotwasm Sep 2019 #22
Collusion isn't a legal term. Stop using right wing framing Arazi Sep 2019 #25
I didn't say it was a egal term. StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #30
Yes you did. You asked for the specific "collusion crime" Arazi Sep 2019 #36
You're missing my point StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #48
I think I see your point on this Starfish FakeNoose Sep 2019 #29
Exactly! StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #31
Thank you! Six117 Sep 2019 #46
what i took from the Mueller report was........ Takket Sep 2019 #33
He conspired with a foreign hostile government (Russia) to rip off the 2016 election. onecaliberal Sep 2019 #35
The one thing Republicans do well mcar Sep 2019 #39
The Mueller Report specifically stated that collusion wasn't a legal term toddwv Sep 2019 #40
Mueller specifically let trump and his campaign off the hook for the trump tower meeting and like 20 Hoyt Sep 2019 #41
Don Jr and Papadopolis agreed to meet Russians to get dirt on Hillary from them Cicada Sep 2019 #42
It doesn't have to be stolen, the collusion was the meeting itself ... that was the crime. Whether uponit7771 Sep 2019 #44
It is legal to take legally obtained negative information Cicada Sep 2019 #59
True, the attempt at collusion with the foreign government is the issue not the thing of value ... uponit7771 Sep 2019 #61
YES !! Trump solicited a foreign government to intervene in the 2016 election on TV and they did ... uponit7771 Sep 2019 #43
Too easy to knock down StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #49
Direct coordination is not an element here, its the attempt itself is the crime even with Ukraine. uponit7771 Sep 2019 #51
Conspiracy requires coordination StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #56
True but Criminal Solicitation of crime of collusion or attempting to interfere in 16 election does uponit7771 Sep 2019 #62
When you're doing this much explaining - you're making my point StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #74
I think this address's the OP though, I wasn't attempting to be reductive. Trump at least the uponit7771 Sep 2019 #81
I hear you - but it takes several extra steps to explain why this is a crime StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #82
Correct, but that's not what happened. Trump asked Russia to interfere, Russia DID interfere ... uponit7771 Sep 2019 #87
Saying you want someone to do something, them doing it and you accepting it StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #90
I agree it's not conspiracy and according to the crime of solicitation it doesn't have to be uponit7771 Sep 2019 #93
Not solicitation either, no matter what you think Wikipedia says StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #95
We agree, the "find" isn't the crime soliciting Russia to inject themselves in our 2016 election on uponit7771 Sep 2019 #96
Asking Russia to share info with the FBI isn't a crime either StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #98
We agree again, just asking Russia to share info with the FBI would be OK ... IF ... uponit7771 Sep 2019 #100
The crime of solicitation is not based on whom s being asked StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #102
Asking a foreign nation to perform any negative action against a political opponent during election uponit7771 Sep 2019 #105
Maybe. But it's not StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #108
Got it 👍 uponit7771 Sep 2019 #110
But, don't misunderstand me ... StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #111
True, what Trump did might not be illegal but it looks impeachable the polling for Red Don sucks ... uponit7771 Sep 2019 #112
No question it's impeachable StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #114
+1, my concern is the MAGA Cultist will impeach the next president cause she has ovaries or uponit7771 Sep 2019 #117
The Mueller Report's major flaw was this eissa Sep 2019 #52
They wrote summaries for the public but they were withheld by Barr, Barr needs to be impeached uponit7771 Sep 2019 #53
Not impeached. Tarred and feathered. 😡😈🤠 Funtatlaguy Sep 2019 #58
Is collusion even a crime in of itself? Kaleva Sep 2019 #63
No but soliciting collusion is and that's what Red Don did in 16 and a month or two ago. uponit7771 Sep 2019 #64
Could you cite me the US Code that covers that? Kaleva Sep 2019 #68
1084. ELEMENTS OF SOLICITATION (link) uponit7771 Sep 2019 #69
Thanks! I'm watching a baby right now and just can't do the research myself now. Kaleva Sep 2019 #70
That's easy cause he used the information post hack and knew he was using it. If he didn't intend .. uponit7771 Sep 2019 #71
If collusion isn't a crime, soliciting collusion can't be a crime StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #120
"If it's what's you say I love it" JonLP24 Sep 2019 #65
None because collusion isn't a crime, conspiracy is. Mueller stated they couldn't get hard evidence octoberlib Sep 2019 #66
Trump obstructed a criminal probe into allegations that his 2016 campaign+Russia coordinated. ArtTownsend Sep 2019 #67
You're talking about the second part of the report, not the first. StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #75
Thank you for your patient, learned, disciplined, interpretations empedocles Sep 2019 #103
This thread was effectively over at reply #2 egduj Sep 2019 #72
"Asked Russia's Help" dawg day Sep 2019 #77
+1, that's text book Criminal Solicitation of collusion. uponit7771 Sep 2019 #88
No, it's not StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #91
We disagree, I'll agree with wikipedia explanation that says there doesn't need to be conspiracy uponit7771 Sep 2019 #92
Feel free to believe Wikipedia, if you like. StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #94
What source do you think would be more reliable? Lets go with that? Trump literally asked two uponit7771 Sep 2019 #97
The statutes and case law control and legal reasoning and interpretation must be applied StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #99
I'm thinking the crime is asking them Russia to inject themselves into the election against his uponit7771 Sep 2019 #101
He didn't directly ask them to inject themselves. StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #104
Ok, we're agreeing that Trump asked Russia to do some specific things ... can we agree that those uponit7771 Sep 2019 #106
The Ukraine scandal boils down to "not this sh*t again!" unblock Sep 2019 #78
The GOP uses extended time & lots of details to obfuscate like hell. Hence the Mueller Report's... Hekate Sep 2019 #80
Trump asked for and willingly received widespread illegal foreign help in his election. Qutzupalotl Sep 2019 #107
Very unspecific,. broad accusation - doesn't tell anyone what he actually did StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #109
Trump solicited a foreign attack on our democracy which corrupted our elections. Qutzupalotl Sep 2019 #113
Still conclusory. Not specific StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #115
Trump asked a foreign country for dirt on his opponent Qutzupalotl Sep 2019 #116
He wasn't in office StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #118
Changing the RNC platform at the convention. Qutzupalotl Sep 2019 #119
You'll have to continue this version of 20 Questions by yourself StarfishSaver Sep 2019 #121
Asked and answered. n/t Qutzupalotl Sep 2019 #122

GreenEyedLefty

(2,073 posts)
2. That's easy, I can do it in 3 words.
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 08:01 AM
Sep 2019

Obstruction of justice.

What you described Trump doing with Ukraine is quid pro quo, and actually blackmail/extortion because military and financial aid was being withheld, then promised in exchange for not just information, but an investigation, and a sham one at that. What people should pay attention to is the cover-up, which is as bad as, if not worse than, the crime itself.

There is probably a nexus between the Ukraine and Russia scandals somewhere (i.e., Putin's involvement) but it hasn't been discovered yet. With that said, I do agree with you that the Ukraine situation sheds light on Trump's M.O. with Russia.

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
4. Obstruction of Justice is a crime, but you did not describr what Trump did
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 08:16 AM
Sep 2019

Describe in one sentence how Trump colluded with Russia.

I don't think you can.

That's the problem. There's no easy way to describe the collusion, largely because of the obstruction of justice.

And the obstruction of justice - which also can't be described in one sentence - was all about stopping the investigation into the collusion. Unless you can describe the collusion, it's difficult to explain to people why the obstruction was a crime.

And it's very difficult to convince the public to support an impeachment based on behavior that requires this much explanation.

This situation is different. It's simple, straightforward, and very easy to explain and understand.

MrsCoffee

(5,801 posts)
57. Not describing in one sentence is not the problem.
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 11:36 AM
Sep 2019

If that was all we could use to convict a person, there would be nothing but free people in the world.

You are asking for a six and a half vine clip as the summary to a Tolkien novel full of crimes. And then declare any such short summary isn’t good enough. You don’t say, lol.

Silly season.

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
60. I did't say it wasn't good enough
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 11:56 AM
Sep 2019

I'm explaining why the Ukraine scandal has captured the public's attention and is so much easier to move on than the Mueller report was.

meadowlander

(4,395 posts)
73. He welcomed foreign assistance to help him win the election.
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 02:38 PM
Sep 2019

He knew what Russia was trying to do and instead of saying "No" and reporting it to the FBI, he said "Russia, if you're listening, go for broke." And then he told them afterwards "No biggie, we do the same thing all the time."

Mueller's conclusion was that there was evidence of collusion but not enough to prove as a criminal charge (because people stonewalled, lied and destroyed evidence).

meadowlander

(4,395 posts)
83. Not really.
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 05:22 PM
Sep 2019


The week after the Trump Tower meeting.

The fact that they didn't take that approach (and the apparently dozens of other approaches) to the FBI is collusion. The fact that Jared Kushner was running around trying to set up a back channel to Russia through the Russian embassy is collusion. Paul Manafort sharing polling data with a Kremlin linked oligarch is collusion. Steve Bannon "setting up a machine" through Cambridge Analytica which was getting illegal data from Facebook through a Russian researcher is collusion. Roger Stone hooking up with Wikileaks so that Trump can promote their email dumps in his tweets is collusion. Coordinating the timing of those dumps to distract from the Access Hollywood tape is collusion.

There are literally dozens more examples. You asked for a one sentence headline and I gave it to you. There are lots of facts that support it. The problem is that people have to be interested enough to learn about them. And too many people are brainwashed by Fox News or so steeped in confirmation bias that they actively avoid the facts.

dawg day

(7,947 posts)
79. Also M said they didn't pursue certain angles because "OLC"
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 03:56 PM
Sep 2019

OLC said a president can't be indicted.

So there were a lot of connections left unconnected.

meadowlander

(4,395 posts)
84. And the scope of the investigation (which we still haven't seen)
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 05:25 PM
Sep 2019

apparently didn't allow him to go after the financial records.

Because he wasn't able to chase up the money laundering and the Trump Tower Moscow angles, he wasn't able to show the leverage the Kremlin has over Trump or the carrot they were dangling.

Botany

(70,504 posts)
47. "They" have worked very hard to sell us that:
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 11:07 AM
Sep 2019

The Mueller report exonerated Trump ... it didn't
Now that we have seen the report it is time to move on .... we haven't seen it.

Barr was installed to stop "it" from gaining any traction and the media has been more than
helpful.

I might be wrong for the first time in my lifetime but Barr shut down Mueller before he could
issue any charging statements and then said he would redact from the report any name of
people who were not charged.

This "thing" is so big I can't get my head around 25% of it.

uponit7771

(90,336 posts)
50. +1, dems should start working with the judicial branch to put people in jail now. The issue now
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 11:13 AM
Sep 2019

... vs then is we know NOW Trump has people around him that are helping him subvert national security and elections.

This situation is more dire because we have proof.

Barr shouldn't be able to obstruct

Botany

(70,504 posts)
54. Ever since Nixon and Reagan a part of the republican party/right wing folks have been ....
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 11:20 AM
Sep 2019

.... more than willing to accept crimes in order to keep "them" in power. That % of the party
has grown and grown w/the spread of hate talk, right wing evangelicals, and the PTB that know
that the GOP is doomed because of changes in demographics and social needs .... and so gerrymandering,
packing the courts, dirty elections, and media manipulations of the truth.

kentuck

(111,094 posts)
6. They didn't find any collusion with conspiracy in the Mueller investigation...
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 08:22 AM
Sep 2019

It is difficult for people to grasp.

But that does not mean those charges have disappeared. They are still there.

Many people have the general idea of what happened. Russia messed with out elections. Trump fired the FBI Director and invited the Russians into the White House with no American reporters permitted...

Now that story is about to come out? in the "lock-out" box?

This is just another chapter from the same book.

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
14. But that's not, in and of itself, collusion
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 08:44 AM
Sep 2019

It may have been enough for you, but it was definitely not enough for most people

 

TidalWave46

(2,061 posts)
26. I'm this instance, they do.
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 09:17 AM
Sep 2019

I’m with you but I’ve also realized most people laughed it off.

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
86. That's neither collusion or conspiracy
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 05:59 PM
Sep 2019

And it must not be enough for "most people" since it's common knowledge that he did that but didn't cause "most people" to want him impeached.

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
10. That doesn't answer the question
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 08:40 AM
Sep 2019

I asked you for a one sentence description of what Trump did to collude with Russia.

The accusation "he obstructed justice" is too broad and doesn't tell anyone anything. I can say you obstructed justice, but unless I say what you actually did that obstructed justice, the accusation is meaningless.

BumRushDaShow

(128,969 posts)
9. I think the clearer "collusion" part is hidden within some of the redacted stuff involving Stone.
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 08:30 AM
Sep 2019

Since Stone's trial is upcoming (November), the details could not be made public in that report. Stone was the messenger between the WH and Assange/Wikileaks/Guccifer2.0, where Wikileaks got their hacked info from Russian operations like Fancy Bear, etc.



The issue then becomes how much access Stone had directly with Drumpf (and or with someone like Ghouliani who was regulary in contact with Drumpf) to get direction.
 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
12. That could all be true. But if it takes this much explaining, no wonder people didn't jump to impeac
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 08:42 AM
Sep 2019

The facts were too complicated and convoluted.

Now, they're not. Trump's wrongdoing can easily be explained in one sentence. People get that. And it's difficult to jumble it up in obfuscation.

BumRushDaShow

(128,969 posts)
18. Exactly
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 08:56 AM
Sep 2019

I posted elsewhere that the corruption is so vast that to wade through and investigate it all (let alone get all the grand juries empaneled and working on charges) will take YEARS. But if one thing can be found to stop it all in its tracks (not necessarily meaning to resolve it, but to stop further instances of corruption from being generated), then this particular obvious instance of focusing on the "shake down of a foreign power for political gain", is probably the best low-hanging fruit subject to run with that is understandable by the public.

The burden however, is to convince the public that doing "shake downs" (extortion) is "illegal", which is something the GOP is attempting to refute.

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
19. Yes - but the public seems to be grasping this one
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 09:02 AM
Sep 2019

And, for once, the press isn't doing its usual "some might say" routine. They're just calling it out for what it is.

BumRushDaShow

(128,969 posts)
23. Yes because...
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 09:13 AM
Sep 2019

"Sopranos".

And you noticed who was profusely whining about how Adam Schiff broke down ("translated" into "street lingo" ) the telephone conversations in order to illustrate what was really going on there.

choie

(4,111 posts)
11. and therein lies the difficulty
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 08:41 AM
Sep 2019

with the objective and the framing of the Mueller Report. Unfortunately, the Dems focused on criminality and not Trump's unethical behavior. Unethical behavior MATTERS and is pretty obvious - criminality, which as president people think doesn't apply to him, was - unfortunately - a non starter due to this supposed determination by the DOJ.

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
13. I don't think they framed it wrong. I don't think it was capable of being framed simply
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 08:43 AM
Sep 2019

It was really complicated stuff.

BumRushDaShow

(128,969 posts)
20. "Dems focused on criminality and not Trump's unethical behavior"
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 09:04 AM
Sep 2019

If the public didn't seem to care about "grab 'em by the pussy" video recordings or revelations about paying off hookers to keep quiet while he cheated on his 3rd wife, or having his family in the oval office carrying out policy decisions and traveling the world to promote those policy decisions while gaining more clients for their own businesses - all for over a year without proper security clearances (and then receiving bogus clearances anyway, after the fact, and after many objections), then focusing on "unethical behavior" was apparently not having the intended effect on public sentiment.

I.e., the narrative had already been ingrained that the "swamp" was the previous Democratic administration and they were swooping in to get rid of that.

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
27. Yes!
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 09:17 AM
Sep 2019

Focusing on "unethical behavior" wouldn't have done a thing. What's unethical and what isn't and whether it matters is in the eye of the beholder. And for all too many people, his lack of ethics is a feature, not a bug.

BumRushDaShow

(128,969 posts)
37. I think this issue of "ethics" really hit home to me
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 09:57 AM
Sep 2019

when watching CSPAN3 at the conclusion of Maguire's testimony, when the CSPAN3 host did a brief call-in segment while waiting for Schiff to come out to make a statement. I have been a CSPAN viewer (all channels as they eventually became available) for literally 30 years this year (once we finally got cable in my neighborhood in '89 here in Philly) and have heard literally hundreds and hundreds of hours of callers on CSPAN. But given the circumstances and the issues surrounding "ethics" and what had just transpired - the host had tried to explain the context of the hearing and the problem of a President conversing with foreign countries for personal benefit - and in this case, to have another country investigate a political opponent right before an upcoming election - and one caller blurted out "I don't see anything wrong with that"!!!



THAT is what we are facing.

As a now-retired federal employee, I literally had to take ethics training yearly during my time in my agency. The fear of god was placed in us about "appearances" and "perceptions", let alone actual activity that might impact our mission with respect to our dealings with regulated industry - YET none of these things are typically applicable, in a "legal" sense, to the general public. So "ethics" is not clear cut and in fact, many state and local governments still have no rules for dealing with such ethics problems (although some are slowly getting around to it - usually after some big scandal hits).

I.e., when it comes to something that is "not against the law" (where "ethics" resides in a "legal" gray space), then the public chalks it off as maybe "looking bad" but not something that is "illegal". In fact some in the public admire those who are able to "get what they want by any means necessary" (as long as it doesn't "explicitly" violate a law).

mercuryblues

(14,531 posts)
15. I think the big difference
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 08:45 AM
Sep 2019

between the Russia investigation and the Ukraine scandal is that the Ukraine scandal is happening in real time. IOW it isn't a 2 year investigation, with the results redacted.

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
17. Yes
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 08:52 AM
Sep 2019

AND it deals with actions affecting a future election, it'd not an investigation trying to piece together something that happened in the past.

BumRushDaShow

(128,969 posts)
38. "the Ukraine scandal is happening in real time"
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 10:07 AM
Sep 2019

The Russian interference was happening "in real time" and was even being reported about. But the problem was the timing and the "public perception" on how to handle it - literally in the middle of an election season - without making it appear to be "partisan".

And specifically, you had a candidate who had not yet been officially elected while the investigations within the intelligence agencies, was going on. So whether the "interference" would be successful or not was obviously not known until after the election (and whether anyone working for the candidate was directly tied to the interference). And by then the country was in the process of moving into the "fog" of a Presidential transition. But it is that period - during the election season and post-election through to inauguration day, that was a focus of the Mueller probe, where "executive privilege" could NOT be invoked, as much as this current administration keeps yelling that it could be.

hughee99

(16,113 posts)
21. We all know he's guilty, Dems have been saying it since before the report was even delivered.
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 09:06 AM
Sep 2019

Why do we need the report at all?

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
28. We don't "all know he's guilty."
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 09:22 AM
Sep 2019

If we "all" knew that, he'd be gone by now.

Asuming that our view is shared by everyone else is a mistake too many people often make. Instead of assuming everyone thinks or should think the way we do, we need to figure out but they're thinking and what it will take to convince the otherwise

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
34. Many of those in that '"we" knew that it didn't matter what "we" thought if not enough "theys"
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 09:42 AM
Sep 2019

believed it.

ismnotwasm

(41,980 posts)
22. I was reading all along that the Mueller report wasn't going to be what people thought
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 09:10 AM
Sep 2019

It was limited in the first place, and while Trump acted liked an immoral and unethical creep, there wasn’t a “charge” even though it was inferred. I thought then, and I think now, voting trump out of office is the only way to get rid of him.

I do look forward to him fighting legal battles for the rest of his life though .

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
30. I didn't say it was a egal term.
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 09:26 AM
Sep 2019

But it is the term the right wing used to dismiss the Mueller report and the Democrats had no simple response to it because it takes too long to explain.

And even if you try to explain his wrongdoing using the legal term of conspiracy, you still can't do it in one sentence. That's my whole point.

But his behavior regarding Ukraine is very simple, very straightforward, and very easy to understand and explain.

Arazi

(6,829 posts)
36. Yes you did. You asked for the specific "collusion crime"
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 09:46 AM
Sep 2019

Crime is a legal term. Collusion is not.

Obstruction of justice is a legal term tho. Very easy to understand if Pelosi wanted to impeach.

The Ukraine matter is also easy to understand.

Pelosi just wasn't ready to even contemplate impeachment until #Traitor's taxes were out imo. I think painting him as a bankrupt, mob money launderer was the fight she wanted.

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
48. You're missing my point
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 11:07 AM
Sep 2019

The "legal terms" don't describe what Trump did. Saying he committed a crime or engaged in obstruction of justice is a conclusion but doesn't state any facts.

The problem is that the allegations that Trump committed a crime in his interactions with Russia - whether it's described as conspiracy or collusion or obstruction of justice - don't tell us what he actually DID. And it's impossible to explain to the public what he did in simple terms that the public can understand.

You still haven't said what Trump did regarding Russia that constitutes a crime - I don't mean naming the crime but specifically describing the act tht constitutes the crime. Without that specificity, the public won't come along.

The Ukraine situation is different. It is easy to explain in one simple sentence. That probably would have been the case with the money laundering, as well. The good thing is that the Ukraine investigation opens the door to getting much more information about Russia, money laundering and his other financial crimes.

FakeNoose

(32,639 posts)
29. I think I see your point on this Starfish
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 09:22 AM
Sep 2019

The Mueller Report is impenetrable for so many Americans who do not have legal training (as I do not.) I found it very difficult to read the 2nd part, and I'll confess that I skipped over most of the first part. Most Americans read even less than I did, and that's a fact.

If it's so difficult for us, imagine how a jury of 12 average citizens would react - they probably would not convict him (based on the Mueller Report alone) because the facts are hidden, convoluted and complicated.

The story of Chump's corruption (Ukraine/Biden) is much easier to understand for most Americans. It's far from his only offense, but it's the one that will hang him because it's easy to grasp and the proof is there. The same jury that would have let him go on collusion, would definitely convict him on the corruption.



Takket

(21,565 posts)
33. what i took from the Mueller report was........
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 09:38 AM
Sep 2019

"drumpf more than likely colluded with russia, but i can't get to the facts because of obstruction of justice, which there is more than enough evidence to indict him with, if not for that STUPID DOJ memo which isn't even a law."

i would like to see obstruction/collusion dealt with once drumpf is removed from office and the cloak of the presidency can't protect him anymore.

for now... ukraine is a slam dunk. every day more evidence floods out, and for the Senate a reconing is coming. Save drumpf, or save yourselves............

onecaliberal

(32,858 posts)
35. He conspired with a foreign hostile government (Russia) to rip off the 2016 election.
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 09:46 AM
Sep 2019

Days after his oath he stood in the oval with Russia and divulged top secret info to them.

mcar

(42,329 posts)
39. The one thing Republicans do well
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 10:09 AM
Sep 2019

is develop short, easy to understand messages (even when they are lies).

This Ukraine debacle is just that - easy to understand. Pelosi gets that.

And I've noticed that other Dems are using the same talking points in the media. I honestly don't recall that ever happening before.

toddwv

(2,830 posts)
40. The Mueller Report specifically stated that collusion wasn't a legal term
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 10:33 AM
Sep 2019

so they weren't looking for collusion.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
41. Mueller specifically let trump and his campaign off the hook for the trump tower meeting and like 20
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 10:43 AM
Sep 2019

other instances that could be called cooperation, coordination, conspiring with, colluding, or whatever you want to call it.

Even those matters that were clearly attempts to cheat in the election, Mueller found a way to absolve trump and his campaign by saying "We identified no evidence . . . . . ." For the trump tower meeting(s), Mueller decided trump Junior was too stupid to possess the requisite intent to violate the law. Heck, he even let Manafort off for giving the Ruskies voter data by saying he (Mueller) couldn't put a value on it.

But, you are exactly right, it fills in gaps and sets the stage for the Ukrainian shakedown, and likely a lot of other unethical, immoral, treasonous, and even criminal acts that hurt this country and others.

Cicada

(4,533 posts)
42. Don Jr and Papadopolis agreed to meet Russians to get dirt on Hillary from them
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 10:47 AM
Sep 2019

That’s collusion though it’s not a crime unless they knew the dirt was stolen

uponit7771

(90,336 posts)
44. It doesn't have to be stolen, the collusion was the meeting itself ... that was the crime. Whether
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 10:50 AM
Sep 2019

... or not Trump Jr knew it was collusion all the people around him did and they were never interviewed

Cicada

(4,533 posts)
59. It is legal to take legally obtained negative information
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 11:42 AM
Sep 2019

Some might argue taking something of value from a foreign country is accepting an illegal campaign contribution. But I think the first amendment, which protects our right to have information relevant to elections and political decision making, makes it legal to get legally obtained information.

uponit7771

(90,336 posts)
61. True, the attempt at collusion with the foreign government is the issue not the thing of value ...
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 01:33 PM
Sep 2019

... seeing if there was nothing of value taking colluding with the Russians to interfere with US elections is the impeachable offense.

In the case of Trumps video asking Russia to interfere was the solicitation of collusion which still would be impeacable.

uponit7771

(90,336 posts)
43. YES !! Trump solicited a foreign government to intervene in the 2016 election on TV and they did ...
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 10:49 AM
Sep 2019

... that night and then the Trump campaign including Trump himself started using some of the information that was stolen from the democratic party.

In this case with Ukraine Trump solicited a foreign government to intervene in the 2020 election

Some stuff Trump does is out in the open

To your point the Ukraine issue with Red Don is clean cut

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
49. Too easy to knock down
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 11:12 AM
Sep 2019

The Mueller report demonstrated all of those facts but was unable to determine that what he did was a crime because direct coordination is an essential element of the crime and the investigators couldn't pin down each element.

We KNOW what happened but the evidence wasn't all there - mainly because Trump obstructed it, but that takes a whole n'other paragraph to explain.

On the other hand, the Ukraine story is as clear as day.

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
56. Conspiracy requires coordination
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 11:28 AM
Sep 2019

"We understood coordination to require an agreement—tacit or express—between the Trump Campaign and the Russian government on election interference. That requires more than the two parties taking actions that were informed by or responsive to the other’s actions or interests. We applied the term coordination in that sense when stating in the report that the investigation did not establish that the Trump Campaign coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities."

uponit7771

(90,336 posts)
62. True but Criminal Solicitation of crime of collusion or attempting to interfere in 16 election does
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 01:33 PM
Sep 2019

... not.

My understanding is unlike conspiracy, there is no overt step necessary for solicitation, one person can be a defendant and it merges with the substantive crime.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solicitation

It is not necessary that the person commit the crime, nor is it necessary that the person solicited be willing or able to commit the crime (such as if the "solicitee" were an undercover police officer).

For example, if Alice commands Bob to assault Charlie, and Alice intends for Bob to assault Charlie, then Alice is guilty of solicitation. However, if Alice commands Bob to assault Charlie without intending that a crime be committed (perhaps believing that Charlie has given consent), then there is no solicitation.

In this case Red Don solicited the collusion on national TV ... THEN ... the Russians followed through soon after.

Done.

Should've been charged and impeached ...

uponit7771

(90,336 posts)
81. I think this address's the OP though, I wasn't attempting to be reductive. Trump at least the
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 05:05 PM
Sep 2019

... least solicited collusion in 2016 by welcoming asking the Russians to interfere with US elections then knowingly accepting information from them.

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
82. I hear you - but it takes several extra steps to explain why this is a crime
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 05:21 PM
Sep 2019

Because asking them to interfere and accepting information isn't a crime, strange as it sounds. The crime would be if they coordinated and Mueller wasn't able to establish that fact - largely because of the obstruction.

I think the dots are all there, but it's not easy to connect them all - and it takes a lot of work to do it. This story requires no dot connecting - it's all one big dot and Trump admitted it belongs to him.

uponit7771

(90,336 posts)
87. Correct, but that's not what happened. Trump asked Russia to interfere, Russia DID interfere ...
Sun Sep 29, 2019, 04:23 AM
Sep 2019

... then Trump accepted the spoils of the interference erasing all speculation of intent.

That's Criminal solicitation of collusion ... in one sentence meeting the requirement of the OP.

There need to be no coordination after the ask and that's not hard to explain.

I don't see Mueller wanting to be aggressive with Trump because he's a rich, white, male, Hetero, Christian ... otherwise he'd be in jail on Criminal solicitation alone.

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
90. Saying you want someone to do something, them doing it and you accepting it
Sun Sep 29, 2019, 09:18 AM
Sep 2019

isn't by itself, a conspiracy in a legal sense. That may sound weird,.but that's just a fact.

Among other things, there has to be a "meeting of the minds" and an agreement to commit the crime.

Suppose Hank says out loud in a crowded bar, "I hate my wife Phyllis and sure wish someone would get rid of her." Hank's psychpath friend Dmitri, hears him and goes out the next day and shoots Phyllis to death. Hank does a happy dance when he finds out, and within a week, collects the insurance money and marries his girlfriend.

Hank and Dmitri can't be convicted of conspiracy unless it can be shown they entered into an agreement that Dmitri would kill Phyllis.The fact that Hank wanted her dead and Dmitri knew he wanted her dead and even that Hank knew Dmitri might hear him and take him up on it - because everyone knows he's a psycho - isn't enough to support a conspiracy charge because Hank and Dmitri didn't expressly agree that Dmitri would murder Phyllis.

By the same token, Trump saying he hoped Russia would get Hillary's emails and Russia then got her emails and Trump used them to his benefit isn't enough to support a conspiracy charge. Unfortunately, the facts needed to help prove the agreement and coordination were quashed, hidden and muddled by the obstruction, so Mueller wasn't able to get to that evidence, leaving a big missing link in the conspiracy chain.

uponit7771

(90,336 posts)
93. I agree it's not conspiracy and according to the crime of solicitation it doesn't have to be
Sun Sep 29, 2019, 11:00 AM
Sep 2019
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solicitation

Unlike conspiracy, there is no overt step necessary for solicitation, one person can be a defendant and it merges with the substantive crime.

It is not necessary that the person commit the crime, nor is it necessary that the person solicited be willing or able to commit the crime (such as if the "solicitee" were an undercover police officer).

Also ... your example one did not command or solicit the other to do anything they just said something... one has to command or solicit the other explicitly for federal criminal solicitation ...
 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
95. Not solicitation either, no matter what you think Wikipedia says
Sun Sep 29, 2019, 11:28 AM
Sep 2019

Trump didn't specifically solicit Russia to commit a crime. He said "Russia, if you’re listening, I hope you’re able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing. I think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press.”

That's not soliciting a crime in a legal sense since "finding" emails is not, ipso facto, a crime. moreover, Trump didn't ask, solicit, or direct them to do it. He just said if they did it the press would like it. That will not sustain a solicitation charge.

I'm a lawyer and law professor who taught criminal law. This is my wheelhouse. Wikipedia is not a reliable source on legal doctrine. You're free, of course to believe whatever you want. But Wikipedia references can't supplant my years of legal training and experience.

uponit7771

(90,336 posts)
96. We agree, the "find" isn't the crime soliciting Russia to inject themselves in our 2016 election on
Sun Sep 29, 2019, 01:16 PM
Sep 2019

... his behalf via suggestion of giving the data (however gotten) to the press IS ... by saying "I think you will probably be rewarded mightily by the press"

Also, stupid Trump put the "ask" to Russia in a tweet.


?lang=en

“If Russia or any other country or person has Hillary Clinton’s 33,000 illegally deleted emails, perhaps they should share them with the FBI!”

Again .. the crime here isn't the getting of the data it's what he's telling Russia or any other country to do with it that's the soliciting their interference into the 2016 election on his behalf.

I do think a reasonable jury can find these two pieces of evidence is Trump encouraging a foreign country to inject themselves into our elections to his benefit.
 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
98. Asking Russia to share info with the FBI isn't a crime either
Sun Sep 29, 2019, 01:30 PM
Sep 2019

I'm not defending Trump, but just trying to explain the limits of the law in this situation. The legalities aren't as clear-cut as some think they are

uponit7771

(90,336 posts)
100. We agree again, just asking Russia to share info with the FBI would be OK ... IF ...
Sun Sep 29, 2019, 01:56 PM
Sep 2019

... it wasn't his political opponent he's asking the foreign country to share information about and to do such on his behalf.

Context is key here imh(o*) ... I'm narrowing the offense to asking a foreign government to do something against his political opponent and on his behalf during the 2016 election.

I agree with this guy here in reply to his request from Russia

Cliff H. Mason II

@TheMasonReport
27 Jul 2016
More
Replying to @realDonaldTrump
Does @realDonaldTrump realize his rhetoric, encouraging foreign actors to meddle in our affairs, is treasonous?


Trumps actions at the least looks like he's soliciting foreign actors to get involved with US elections against his political opponent and he did the same with UKR ... I think a prosecutor could get a jury to agree with that.


* I'm an engineer by training, I could not be a lawyer ... you have to be special to accept the human injecting into logic that law allows.

Thx for your expertise and I would love to have taken a law class with you as professor seeing no one would be afraid to speak up even with the most off the wall ideas.

It was off the wall ideas that allowed solving of some of the hardest problems with computers.

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
102. The crime of solicitation is not based on whom s being asked
Sun Sep 29, 2019, 02:04 PM
Sep 2019

And asking someone to share information with the FBI isn't a crime.

Thanks for the kind words. It would be fun to have you in class. I like the way your brain works.

The law is actually very much like engineering - it's very logical and requires a lot of diagramming and deductions. It doesn't seem that way because when looking at it in pieces it seems to make little sense. But when you understand the bigger picture, the precedents and how various parts of the law affect and interact with each other, it actually is very logical.

uponit7771

(90,336 posts)
105. Asking a foreign nation to perform any negative action against a political opponent during election
Sun Sep 29, 2019, 02:15 PM
Sep 2019

... should be a crime if its not.

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
111. But, don't misunderstand me ...
Sun Sep 29, 2019, 04:13 PM
Sep 2019

I think Trump and his campaign DID solicit crimes and DID engage in criminal conspiracies. The problem is that Mueller was not able to pin down all of the pieces that prove each element of those crimes - mostly because Trump and the White House actively obstructed the investigation.

I don't want anyone to think that my analysis of the legalities absolves Trump of guilt - he's guilty as hell, but knowing he's guilty and having all of the evidence to make a criminal case are two different things.

uponit7771

(90,336 posts)
112. True, what Trump did might not be illegal but it looks impeachable the polling for Red Don sucks ...
Sun Sep 29, 2019, 04:23 PM
Sep 2019

... on this issue.

Recently out ... a plurality says the transcripts are serious issues.

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
114. No question it's impeachable
Sun Sep 29, 2019, 04:37 PM
Sep 2019

And no question that he's engaged in numerous actual, prosecutable crimes.

uponit7771

(90,336 posts)
117. +1, my concern is the MAGA Cultist will impeach the next president cause she has ovaries or
Sun Sep 29, 2019, 04:47 PM
Sep 2019

... some other crap and then claim we didn't impeach Trump because he broke the law.

I think it was you or some other poster that came up with the idea of getting the Judicial Branch to help us out with enforcing subpoenas, I'm thinking they can do the same as far as confirming impeachment so we can have a 2 branch decision.

eissa

(4,238 posts)
52. The Mueller Report's major flaw was this
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 11:16 AM
Sep 2019

If you’re going to write a 500-page report, include a conclusion.

This whole “here are our findings, you guys interpret their meanings” was ridiculous. He had another opportunity to state clearly the results of his investigation at the hearing, and again failed to concisely outline the crimes committed.

Kaleva

(36,298 posts)
63. Is collusion even a crime in of itself?
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 01:45 PM
Sep 2019

You are probably looking for, in one sentence, acts of conspiracy, treason, fraud, or racketeering.

uponit7771

(90,336 posts)
64. No but soliciting collusion is and that's what Red Don did in 16 and a month or two ago.
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 01:53 PM
Sep 2019

I'm gob smacked Mueller didn't lay that down that the solicitation of a crime is a crime in and of itself

Kaleva

(36,298 posts)
70. Thanks! I'm watching a baby right now and just can't do the research myself now.
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 02:22 PM
Sep 2019

This might be hard to prove:

" The intent must be shown to be serious by strongly corroborative circumstances. Second, the Government must prove that the defendant commanded, induced, or otherwise endeavored to persuade the other person to commit the felony. "

uponit7771

(90,336 posts)
71. That's easy cause he used the information post hack and knew he was using it. If he didn't intend ..
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 02:25 PM
Sep 2019

... for the crime to happen then he shouldn't have used the information afterward.

example, ... Bill solicits Frank to rob a bank, Frank robs a bank and take money back to Bill ... Bill starts spending the money instead of calling the police.

Bill's "intent" is known by his post actions

JonLP24

(29,322 posts)
65. "If it's what's you say I love it"
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 01:57 PM
Sep 2019

I know that directly implicates Don Jr who I guess was too stupid to be indicted but the whole thing paints a picture. You build a case piece by piece. Plus I don't have a lot of faith in Mueller after his experience as a FBI director under Bush.

octoberlib

(14,971 posts)
66. None because collusion isn't a crime, conspiracy is. Mueller stated they couldn't get hard evidence
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 01:57 PM
Sep 2019

because of the deleting of text messages, emails. Taking the fifth etc. So, yeah this is a far better charge to impeach Trump on.

 

ArtTownsend

(439 posts)
67. Trump obstructed a criminal probe into allegations that his 2016 campaign+Russia coordinated.
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 01:58 PM
Sep 2019

Wanted to fit it within the character limit.

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
75. You're talking about the second part of the report, not the first.
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 03:35 PM
Sep 2019

But even then, you have to explain all the things he did that you think constituted obstruction and argue about whether they did or didn't actually constitute obstruction.

Very different than saying "Trump asked the President of Ukraine to dig up dirt on a political opponent in return for his performing an official act."

I'm not saying he didn't engage in obstruction or commit any other crime. I'm saying that the nature of the crimes detailed in the Mueller report make them very difficult to explain simply, especially to people who aren't as likely to think he's a criminal as we are. But the Ukraine narrative is very simple and straightforward because we can state the facts in a way that most people can easily understand and comprehend that he committed a criminal and unethical act.

dawg day

(7,947 posts)
77. "Asked Russia's Help"
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 03:54 PM
Sep 2019

Three words.

Or a sentence: Trump asked for Russia's illegal help to get elected, and in return promised favors like a lessening of sanctions.

What? When did he say "sanctions?"
Yeah, well, even Trump isn't stupid enough to constantly say this out loud. "Adoptions" was the code.

Or--
Trump hired as campaign manager a man he knew was in debt to and in the pay of a Russian oligarch who was Putin's hand.



 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
94. Feel free to believe Wikipedia, if you like.
Sun Sep 29, 2019, 11:20 AM
Sep 2019

As a lawyer, I rely on case law and statute, not Wikipedia, since it's not a reliable legal source.

uponit7771

(90,336 posts)
97. What source do you think would be more reliable? Lets go with that? Trump literally asked two
Sun Sep 29, 2019, 01:25 PM
Sep 2019

... countries to inject themselves into our elections via the press and the FBI.

He was pretty clear with it too ...

Thx in advance

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
99. The statutes and case law control and legal reasoning and interpretation must be applied
Sun Sep 29, 2019, 01:51 PM
Sep 2019

It's very complicated and I don't have time to dig up cases right now, but my conclusion is based in my legal training and 30+ years of experience interpreting, applying, and teaching the law.

But, in short, in order for a solution to be criminal, the act expressly solicited must be a crime, in and of itself. It's not criminal solicitation if the act specifically solicited is not, by itself, criminal but is merely related to and incidental to the crime eventually committed.

Saying "If Russia can find those emails, the press would love it" and "it would be great if Russia shared those emails with the FBI" does not expressly ask Russia to engage in a criminal act since it is not a crime to "find" emails (emails can be found through all kinds of ways, including through non-criminal means) or to share them with the FBI. The fact that Russia eventually engaged in criminal activity in order to obtain the emails does not turn Trump's initial suggestions into criminal solicitations.

I realize this probably all sounds way in the weeds (like what the definition of "is" is), but the law is all about details like this.

uponit7771

(90,336 posts)
101. I'm thinking the crime is asking them Russia to inject themselves into the election against his
Sun Sep 29, 2019, 02:02 PM
Sep 2019

... opponent is the crime.

HOW Russia did such is another matter all together but the thing that is clear is that Trump asked Russia and other countries multiple times to do something against his political opponent during the 16 election.

Then after Trump asked them to inject themselves (legally or not) into 16 election against his political opponent, they did ...

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
104. He didn't directly ask them to inject themselves.
Sun Sep 29, 2019, 02:06 PM
Sep 2019

he asked them to do some specific things that don't end in of themselves prostitute criminal activity.

But even if he had directly asked them to inject themselves, that's not necessarily a crime either. Foreign governments frequently get involved - i.e. "inject themselves" - in elections through various means, some of which are perfectly legal.

uponit7771

(90,336 posts)
106. Ok, we're agreeing that Trump asked Russia to do some specific things ... can we agree that those
Sun Sep 29, 2019, 02:21 PM
Sep 2019

... specific things were negative actions against his political opponent?

tia

unblock

(52,224 posts)
78. The Ukraine scandal boils down to "not this sh*t again!"
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 03:54 PM
Sep 2019

The main thing that really makes the Ukraine scandal major is that the Russian scandal paved the way. We spent three years dealing with this roller coaster scandal, will he get away with it or not, is it a big enough crime or not, etc.

We got sick of it and burned out on it and frustrated and tired of it.

Then Ukraine comes along and sounds remarkably similar and our collective reaction is oh no, we are *not* spending another several years on anothe one of these scandals. We are shutting you down right here, right now.


Some of the particulate help, but really. Imagine if somehow Ukraine came first. People would have pasted his words and he would have said it was a joke and hey I'm new at presidenting and everybody does it and whatever. People would have given him another chance.

And if Russia somehow came later after three years of debating the Ukraine scandal, we would have pounced on that more aggressively.

Hekate

(90,683 posts)
80. The GOP uses extended time & lots of details to obfuscate like hell. Hence the Mueller Report's...
Sat Sep 28, 2019, 04:08 PM
Sep 2019

..."summary" by Barr, the delays, the development of their own narrative. Smoke screens galore. Some of us Dems just have not learned this adequately about them.

So what Nancy Pelosi has in this instance is her own knowledge, her own cunning and political instincts -- and something very very simple and easy for people to understand. That's why it is imperative to move fast: before the Trump WH and the GOP have time to develop their own narrative and for it to take hold.

We should help her, shouldn't we?

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
109. Very unspecific,. broad accusation - doesn't tell anyone what he actually did
Sun Sep 29, 2019, 03:05 PM
Sep 2019

Not the same as "As president, Trump asked a foreign leader to dig up dirt on his political opponent in return for his giving them foreign assistance."

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