General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWm. F. Buckley, Jr. and the rise of american conservatism.
[A book, I guess, on amazon.]
"William F. Buckley Jr., was the foremost architect of the conservative movement that swept the American political landscape from the ...
'Firing Line with Margaret Hoover' was just on with Mark Warner. They showed a clip of Buckley and Herbert Hoover discussing impeachment and censuring. Don't know what point that was to make.
No wonder I never cared for Buckley. Ever.
What's Margaret a descendant of Hoover? Margaret was starting to venture into the trash-talkin' realm sounded like to me. Margie was hooverin'...
MontanaMama
(23,313 posts)of my husband...that apple didnt fall far from the tree either.
sprinkleeninow
(20,245 posts)grantcart
(53,061 posts)MontanaMama
(23,313 posts)Grandson Bill Buckley didnt...I can promise you that. When hes in our shop, I make myself scarce so I dont have to worry about keeping my mouth shut. 😏
PJMcK
(22,035 posts)His grandfather never shirked from a discussion.
Or is the lad a snowflake?
MontanaMama
(23,313 posts)I tell him what I think if we're in a social situation but when I'm at work, I choose to steer clear of him. I'm the bookkeeper so it is easy to hole up in my office to avoid him.
Caliman73
(11,736 posts)Like Hobbes and Edmund Burke. The truth however is that conservatism is just about defending primitive power structures based on the idea that people are not really equal in dignity and worth. That is not an intellectual argument it is an emotional one.
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)sprinkleeninow
(20,245 posts)Caliman73
(11,736 posts)Conservatives have to rely on mythology and emotion because facts are not on their side. The problem for us is that emotion often beats logic, at least initially.
sprinkleeninow
(20,245 posts)as being emotional and elitist?
Quite the opposite. The Dems have the intellect.
'They' make me sick.
[Stone's smug mug was just on the teevee screen. Him and those hideous glasses of his. 🤧]
SCantiGOP
(13,869 posts)For years my signature was a quote from John Maynard Keynes.
To paraphrase, it said that conservatism has always been a quest to find a moral
justification for greed and selfishness.
sprinkleeninow
(20,245 posts)"...conservatism has always been a quest to find a moral
justification for greed and selfishness."
Abominable.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)He wasn't trying to imply that's all the couple next door cared about.
We're so fortunate. Liberalism's very old and distinguished intellectual basis is a strength that's kept America's liberals close to our principles for 250 years. It arises from our inborn liberal personality traits as well. As a result, today's liberal Democratic Party continues the heritage begun with Jefferson's and Madison's Democratic-Republican Party, which they took from earlier liberal philosophers of the Enlightenment and Age of Reason, and far before those even.
Conservative people don't have our intellectual buttresses, they have mostly gut feelings and are more influenced by fear. And now scientists have discovered they process information in different order from us -- through an emotional center for reaction first, then on for further cognitive evaluation, those who aren't already too carried away by some lie to care. (We do the smart part first, then on to react emotionally to it.) This all makes them particularly vulnerable to manipulation by evil-doers employing modern psychological techniques and mass communications.
But, although most of the liberal half are less vulnerable, those same manipulations work to various degrees on us also because of the many faults and weaknesses we share with them, displayed as proof positive on almost any thread here. However, ours are not all we are, and theirs are not all they are.
For another quote that's also applicable: Lincoln's observation is most of what Buckley et al tried to create an intellectual argument for conservatism out of:
What is conservatism? Is it not adherence to the old and tried, against the new and untried?
That valuable conservative ballast for the ship of state is a huge part of what economically conservative billionaires had to purge from the Republican Party's orientation in order to dismantle systems and regulations that worked well. And here we are, divided and semi-conquered until enough of them finally break away.
sprinkleeninow
(20,245 posts)iniquity, wrong doing, bad choices, etc. But on the whole, they make more sense in ideals, sense of purpose, manner of governing, etc.
They seem to have a 'heart' for brothers and sisters in humanity more so than their counterparts.
If I had no party affiliation at this point in time, I absolutely, positively would/could never align myself with the reptilicans given how they have been showing true colors and having no qualms about that. It's in our face now.
"....many faults and weaknesses we share with them, displayed as proof positive on almost any thread here. However, ours are not all we are, and theirs are not all they are."
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)attitudes toward equality are reportedly, according to psychologists, the single biggest difference between liberals and conservatives.
Liberals tend to be wired to believe in principles of equality, to feel its rightness in our guts, and also to individual rights. We, of course, created government of, by and for the people, intrinsically and inseparably liberal.
Conservatives in general are oriented more to hierarchical, unequal societies, and with a more communal orientation to their moral codes, protection of societal structures prioritized over the individual.
Of course just saying these things simplifies too much. We're reportedly all goulashes of beliefs. There are a few here who feel, just as strongly as any trumpster, that they should overset the rights of those who disagree with them to have a say in our democracy; not everyone's wired for representative government. And even with today's poisoned political thinking, some conservatives would die to protect our sovereignty.
sprinkleeninow
(20,245 posts)Yes to equality!
The other side likes the idea of upperhanded-ness, something resembling absolute unquestionable authority. Looks like all that former mode of governing passes away but keeps resurrecting.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)But many people here listen to and admire Scarborough, Nicolle Wallace, Richard Painter, many others, and they're conservative. It's probable that some of the heroic impeachment witnesses are also.
sprinkleeninow
(20,245 posts)Especially when it affects others in the negative, when they impose or quite frankly force [attempt to] their 'ideology' on others.
Mb I'm hard headed. Those who have come to 'reasoning' regarding the damage foisted upon our nation for decades by members of the 'other side', and yet continue to identify as 'republicans' I still can't trust them in totality. When they actually move in with 'us', then their words hold true value for me.
Forgive me for my stance. 💙
Buzz cook
(2,471 posts)And with a dash of Latin platitudes for class.
Buckley's claim to conservative fame was based on a defense of Joe McCarthy and red baiting.
He wasn't a slouch at racism. You just had to read his work.
OneGrassRoot
(22,920 posts)it brings to mind organized religion, the more fundamentalist variety conservatives tend to subscribe to, and how these religions tend to reinforce what I call a hierarchy of human values.
mountain grammy
(26,619 posts)Onyrleft
(344 posts)The guy was an effete racist who couldn't pronounce NASA.
Aristus
(66,327 posts)really creeped me out...
Progressive Jones
(6,011 posts)As a child, his family moved the World a lot. His first languages were actually Spanish and French. He didn't learn English until he went to school in England.
I'm in opposition of his political and social stances, but I've read a bit about him, and he was interesting in a way.
This was no Hannity or Limbaugh or Levin. He was at least civilized in his demeanor.
DFW
(54,369 posts)His brother, Jim, ran (and won) a seat int he U.S. Senate from New York on the "Conservative Party" ticket (how times have changed, eh?). While I was in his office, I asked him about the (then) recent visit of Nixon's VP, Spiro Agnew, visiting Francisco Franco in Spain on the anniversary of the Fascist uprising that eventually brought Franco to power. Since Franco at the time was an ally of Hitler and Mussolini, didn't the Senator think we were sending the world the wrong message with this? He smiled, and said, no he didn't see anything wrong with it (the Buckleys were faithful Catholics, and Franco was positively militant). Jim didn't have the same snotty way of speaking his brother did, but you could hear they were from the same background.
grantcart
(53,061 posts)Segregation.
He eventually became an admirer of Dr. Martin Luther King and opposed segregation and destroyed Wallace on the subject on a widely televised debate.
The 1964 Civil Rights Act was passed with Republican support against Southern Democratic opposition.
He also railed against allowing the KKK (which was much stronger then) in the Republican Party.
I hated him at the time but he would have led the never Trumpet Brigade. His son endorsed Obama in 08.
House of Roberts
(5,168 posts)William F. Buckley Jr.'s Son, Christopher Buckley, endorsed Obama.
sprinkleeninow
(20,245 posts)betsuni
(25,475 posts)I remember seeing him on TV and being amazed, never heard anyone else use language like that. Of course he was rude to people and wrong about non-linguistic things.
At least he criticized G.W. Bush for the Iraq War being a failure. From "Buckley: The Right Word" about "Democrat Party": "As far as we're concerned, it's the Democratic Party, the alternative sounding phony-baloney."
He should've made a career in academia instead of politics. Juicy information about his love life never saw the light of day. No way he didn't have passionate affairs with mistresses.
PJMcK
(22,035 posts)Where did you hear that Buckley had affairs?
What do you know about him?
betsuni
(25,475 posts)Mc Mike
(9,114 posts)Buckley was a skull n bones man, worked in the CIA under E. Howard Hunt in Mexico, coz oil. Lied about his CIA ties for years.
Pretended to oppose the Birchers, but founded YAF, with a ton of bircher support, from his home in Sharon, CT. YAF worked hand in glove with the Birchers to launch large scale high profile anti-Kennedy protests in Dallas, in Nov of '63.
sprinkleeninow
(20,245 posts)On a parallel to shrub, the mad cowboy?: Texas/ Connecticut/skull and bones/reptilican...
Mc Mike
(9,114 posts)Also liked to pretend he wasn't in the CIA.
sprinkleeninow
(20,245 posts)Suspicious that he was in Dallas 22 November 1963. 🤔
Mc Mike
(9,114 posts)So was Nixon.
None of them could remember the specifics, though.
sprinkleeninow
(20,245 posts)Mc Mike
(9,114 posts)whereabouts that day.
Look at DU member Octafish's Journal if you want to see a wide variety of info about JFK. He was a very informative post-er here, and had a ton of good information. He did have some detractors on the site, who used the 'conspiracy theory' label on him, often.
In our legal system, 'conspiracy to commit' charges are a dime a dozen, 2 guys plotting to rob a 7-11 is a conspiracy. But under the same legal system, if it's a couple of powerful people plotting to commit a crime, any discussion of their plot can be dismissed as a 'conspiracy theory', meaning 'that kind of plot rarely or never happens, and it's crazy to even talk about it'.
The system sees conspiracy by the low everywhere, and it's crazy to think there's ever a conspiracy by the high.
sprinkleeninow
(20,245 posts)Last edited Mon Nov 18, 2019, 09:35 PM - Edit history (1)
providential. Have no inkling how I found this site. Then 911 happened. Read extensively about it. Everything.
Curtailed DU to a point in 2003 when we had to get my mom with us after she had a medical emergency. Rejoined DU right after 06 November 2016. This place continues to keep my noggin intact. Thanx be.
Appreciate you conversing with me. And TY for the book mention. 💙
Mc Mike
(9,114 posts)Octa had a ton of great posts in those intervening years, quite a bit in his journal.
Nice talking to you.
sprinkleeninow
(20,245 posts)unsettling. I'd rather know various takes on 'what happened' than not.
sprinkleeninow
(20,245 posts)my first signing on. I couldn't handle her needs and participate in DU as much as I really wanted to.
Mc Mike
(9,114 posts)The site has memories of your mom connected to it, for you, it seems like to me. What was happening with her?
Sometimes people don't stop to think that the other person they're talking to has big burdens they're shouldering or are in the middle of a very difficult time.
----
I originally thought I got info about this site from Al Franken's book 'The Truth', in late '05, early '06. He had a discussion of good websites in his last chapter and end notes. But I re-read it later, and he didn't mention DU in that book. The '06 FAIR book Project Censored also had a list of good sites, it came out in '05 too, but I don't think DU was mentioned there, either.
What I guess happened is that one of those other sites had a blog-roll like DU used to have, and that site's blog roll mentioned DU, or had a clickable link to it.
I remember Digby's Hullabaloo and Empty Wheel being on this site's blog roll, and still see good info from them posted here, or on Sam S's Majority Report.
sprinkleeninow
(20,245 posts)She presented at the ER with bradycardia. EMS gave injection at her place, then transported her. I got a call from her doc 10:30 that nite. Uh-oh. Assumed she had taken a tumble. They brought her back from the brink but she started slipping again. Put a temporary line in and she stabilized so next day they scheduled a proper pacemaker insert. I could see my life and husband's being changed in an instant. And did it. I'm an only kiddo and he was the son she didn't have. Plus we were over 750 miles away.
It all took a toll. There's a lot more to this but I shall refrain.
Then my husband of nearly 47 years up and died suddenly and unexpectedly in March--cardiac arrest.
I am suffering, yah, so to speak. But then I receive an internal message of strength, keep on-keeping on, light. In addition I'm shown continually of untold unspeakable suffering worldwide that my pain and hurt cannot ever remotely resemble.
Please forgive me for any distress I have caused by relating this. 💙
Mc Mike
(9,114 posts)You're not causing me distress, by relating something about your personal losses and burdens. I'm glad you can find internal strength and light.
There are people who are hurting a lot worse than us, I agree. I believe from your journal that you're religious, so I don't think it's impertinent to say you're in my prayers, for what it's worth. I pray for people who aren't religious, sometimes, but don't mention it to them, so as not to add insult to the trouble they're already having.
Talking about 2 people you loved who you lost is a way of keeping them present, there's nothing wrong with that, as long as you don't suffer while you talk about them. They went 2 different ways, but both have positive aspects.
The benefit of having long term life threatening health problems is that loved ones can come to terms with the idea they're going to be separated, even though it's a burden that a parent doesn't wish on her kid.
The benefit of going quickly is that the time or amount of suffering is kept down, and after what you and your husband went through with your mom, he wouldn't have wanted you to have a long burden again. You don't get to say goodbye when it's sudden, but the physical pain is cut down.
Their last moments don't define them, talk and think about happy and loving times you had with them, keep those moments fresh in your memory. That's what they both want for you.
sprinkleeninow
(20,245 posts)which he survived, what if he did so in a vegetative state. That gave me chills. So there's that.
I do welcome and receive your prayerful intentions for me. I welcome any and all good thoughts, vibes, positive rays of light. Whatever one calls them. Who am I to be selective in that.
Peace be unto you; His choicest blessings come upon you and yours.
Mc Mike
(9,114 posts)Thank you for the peace and blessings.
sprinkleeninow
(20,245 posts)💙
Mc Mike
(9,114 posts)You know him best, know what he would want.
sprinkleeninow
(20,245 posts)commentary from back in the day.
There was one poster who was in air traffic control. Their name should come to my puddin head along the way.
Is there somehow one can access archived DU?
All the best to you...
Mc Mike
(9,114 posts)versions of DU, like DU2, DU3, etc. Sometimes the archives are not accessible.
I don't know any PATCO DUers, but they could be here today, and I'm just not in the know about who they are.
Use the site google search box, top right of the screen, for subjects, and you'll almost always get relevant info on subjects that you're looking for. It's hit or miss what kind of archive info you'll get, the results aren't in temporal order or reverse temporal order, maybe for anti-hacking reasons.
sprinkleeninow
(20,245 posts)💙
Mc Mike
(9,114 posts)there. Had all the top posts. Probably was lonely there.
sprinkleeninow
(20,245 posts)Somethin' somethin' ATC?
Air traffic controller.
This person posted in the 'conspiracy' threads. Don't think they were full tilt.
I was and am open to all sides.
Lots of stuff deserving to be analyzed, questioned, contemplated.
I may be taken to the principal's office for this. Remember the clip of the low to the ground 'aircraft' before it plowed into the Pentagon.
Some footage was missing. 🤔
Viewing that clip was creepy and chilling.
Mc Mike
(9,114 posts)I guess you're referring to the PATCO post-er having a name that had ATC in it?
There has never been any real trouble I've seen from someone talking here about Kennedy in Dallas, or the 9/11 attacks. Other post-ers who disagree might ride the post for a while and state their disagreement in unfriendly ways. Or a forum moderator may say the thread is locked and should be reposted in creative speculation. A lot of post-ers here have openly summed up the attacks as 'MIHOP' or 'LIHOP', in hundreds of discussions, in thousands of posts.
There was a website for 9/11 that linked to 'history commons', which had years of mainstream news source links compiled and archived. I read the site for several years, it was the product of family members of victims, architects and engineers, researchers who questioned the official story.
It was very informative, but a couple years into it's existence, the bircher Alex Jones 'loose change/infowars/ prison planet truthers' infiltrated it with bad info. Started adding bull shit stories that polluted the info, tried to pin the attacks on Mossad and 'the Jews'.
I'd like to issue a caveat to you, spring. Video footage is easily manipulated, there has been similar footage that claims to show that plane strikes on the WTCs were fake. And that claim is certainly a lie, debunked by thousands of eyewitnesses in New York.
So in my opinion, the same liars -- who are manipulating footage and then telling viewers 'look at this manipulated footage, that proves no planes hit the 3 buildings' -- are the people who are covering up an actual conspiratorial attack on the US, in the guise of 'exposing a conspiratorial attack on the US.' Same thing happened in the JFK assassination. Dallas bircher Alex Jones was the only 'Investigator' who was allowed to hold an event in Dealey Plaza for the 50th anniversary of JFK's murder. The bad guys hide in plain sight.
There's no harm in looking at anyone's presentations or conjectures or reporting about the 9/11 attacks, but please look with a critical eye. Look at other stuff they're saying, look at their whole body of work, look at where they're leading the viewer with their opinion. Look for the source of their videos, see if any independent confirmation is made from other sources that you think are respectable.
I never mind talking about holes in the official story about these crimes. NEADS/NORAD vs FAA, thermite particles in building steel, Marvin bush's security contracts, attacks on the Jersey Girls, Vigilant Guardian/Northern Guardian, whereabouts of Rumsfeld and Rice, timeline of Cheney in the PEOC, absence of Otis Andrews Langley based air support, official claims about cell phone communications from 30,000 feet in '01, etc. The official story is a big mess.
sprinkleeninow
(20,245 posts)All that you have covered I read much of it. And considered different and somewhat opposing views.
It troubles my spirit to simply receive and believe some of these 'official findings or evaluations or reports'. That's me. Oh, the knowledgeable experts in the structures of building, demolition, etc.! Interesting, but so very sad the need being applied to what we witnessed on that sorrowful day in September.
Mc Mike
(9,114 posts)I saw several vids about 5 years back, where they showed pixil manipulated footage of all 3 plane strikes. The guy who put them out was 'attacking' bush, skull & bones, brown bro's harriman, bilderbergers, CFR, with some talk of 'occult and demons'. He was a Jones flunky, and there is no emnity between the buckley, bush, hunt, falwell crowd and the stone, jones, carto, lane crowd. Though they often pretend there is, and the 'anti' bush 9/11 vid was part of that pretense.
The Kissinger Zelikow Rice stuff with the Commission showed how much trouble there was, Kean and Cleland's statements about the purposeful hamstringing of the investigation show how crooked the official story is.
There is still a lot of good info in the history commons 9/11 site, but they still had some infiltrated disinfo the last look I took, several years back.
sprinkleeninow
(20,245 posts)that it was 'said' there were lapses in the video. IDK what to truly 'believe', but it was something to consider. One of enuff things to leave you puzzled and questioning.
Don't feel you are talking down to me! Heavens, I'm no expert on what happened. Just interested.
Mc Mike
(9,114 posts)altered vids, could be altering the vids.
I never believed they could make up even one plane and lost passengers, let alone 4. Too many people at the airports, airlines, for them to get away with that kind of thing. Notice how the far right bircher jones people floated an identical conspiracy theory that Sandy Hook Elementary school didn't exist, or was closed years before. There is no way on earth to make up a school in a school district in a heavily populated section of the US. But that doesn't stop the nazis from telling that whopper, anyway.
They could salt the passenger manifests with people who weren't on the airline, but salt them by putting in a few people, not creating an entire flight's worth of fake victims.
We don't get footage from the Pentagon strike, because of security protocols. There was footage from an offsite business camera.
I_UndergroundPanther
(12,463 posts)I loved his posts.
Mc Mike
(9,114 posts)I_UndergroundPanther
(12,463 posts)In my life was occupying everything.
Octafish is missed.
mountain grammy
(26,619 posts)Love Octafish.. miss that guy.
Mc Mike
(9,114 posts)The section in Russ's book that discussed 'Silver Fox' 'Bar's' letter to her unnamed kid, that 'was a real time narrative written before, during, and after' the assassination really showed what an evil lying creep she was, perfect spouse for Poppy.
sprinkleeninow
(20,245 posts)All info you share is very much welcomed!
Mc Mike
(9,114 posts)That Russ Baker book has a lot of good info about the bush family. Octafish has a ton of Bush Family Evil Empire posts on this site, if you search 'BFEE Octafish' in the google site search box. But the Baker book is worth reading, too. I always like a hard copy over computerized info.
sprinkleeninow
(20,245 posts)Got beaucoup going on yet and I'm known to be somewhat ditsy anyway! 😌
NewJeffCT
(56,828 posts)Ann Coulter grew up in New Canaan, CT
Laura Ingraham grew up in Glastonbury, CT
Frank Luntz grew up in liberal West Hartford, CT
Hope Hicks, Greenwich, CT
Scooter Libby, New Haven, CT
of course, we had Paul Newman, Ralph Nader, Norman Lear and others on the left.
sprinkleeninow
(20,245 posts)Godmother was married to one o' them. Go figure.
Paul Newman happened to be dining at this particular restaurant during our wedding reception. The wedding partay girls were going ga-ga. I told them don't get any ideas. He'd be put off getting ambushed especially in that kinda setting.
hatrack
(59,584 posts)"McCarthyism is a movement around which men of good will and stern morality may close ranks."
Yeah, that's some serious intellectual throw-weight there, huh?
sprinkleeninow
(20,245 posts)More like 'ill will and hypocritical morality'.
TheBlackAdder
(28,189 posts)sprinkleeninow
(20,245 posts)Irritating and arrogant.
TheBlackAdder
(28,189 posts).
Since they could barely comprehend what he was saying and apply it to reality, they just accepted it.
.
sprinkleeninow
(20,245 posts)Kurt V.
(5,624 posts)Buckley was being humiliated and he knew it.
sprinkleeninow
(20,245 posts)Response to Kurt V. (Reply #56)
Dave Starsky This message was self-deleted by its author.
Kurt V.
(5,624 posts)Dave Starsky
(5,914 posts)He was making a reference to his previous showdown with Gore Vidal where they DID nearly smash each others' faces in.
tenderfoot
(8,426 posts)There's some great responses to one the videos, here's one of them...
When I was a boy I used to watch Buckley on "Firing Line" all the time because I thought he was a great intellect. I realize now that he just had a big vocabulary.
sandensea
(21,627 posts)His one real talent
sprinkleeninow
(20,245 posts)sandensea
(21,627 posts)He was nothing if not theatrical.
Here he is, at his height (1981), with his great nemesis - and friend - Prof. Ken Galbraith. I always wished he (Buckley) had been on our side.
sprinkleeninow
(20,245 posts)Buckley was a turn off for me, and mb I was in error not watching his program more frequently if I even had at all. He annoyed me so.