Fixing a Whole

[H2O Man]

“Donald Trump truly has the most dangerous form of mental illness that you can find in a leader,” Gartner told KrassenCast. “He suffers from a personality disorder called malignant narcissism.  Malignant narcissism was actually introduced by Erich Fromm, the famed psychoanalyst, who himself narrowly escaped the Nazis. Malignant narcissism was his attempt to explain the psychology of dictators like Hitler or Stalin or Mussolini.”
Dr. John Gartner

https://hillreporter.com/renowned-phycologist-like-hitler-trump-suffers-from-sadism-malignant-narcissism-paranoia-22815



John Gartner is a psychologist who specializes in personality disorders. He worked for 28 years at John Hopkins University, and now focuses on private practice. In early 2017, his petition of over 40,000 mental health professionals stated that Donald Trump was unsuited to serve as president, and that Trump posed a threat to our nation. He has since formed the political action committee, “Duty to Warn,” to educate members of Congress and the general public about the threats that Trump poses.

I particularly like the above quote, because he identifies Erich Fromm as the person who coined the label “malignant narcissism.” Fromm used this to describe those people referred to as psychopaths or sociopaths in North America, who pose the greatest danger to society. Older forum members may recall that I've spoken of how Fromm's description fits Donald Trump on numerous OP/threads here since Trump became president.

“That's all good and true,” you may be thinking, “but are there features of this dangerous disorder that may help us anticipate what behaviors we may anticipate if the House impeaches him, and it goes to the Senate for trial? How might he behave in the context of the trial, and in his other duties as president?” Those are good questions. Let's look closer, shall we?

The place we might start is from something that a number of women here had said when Trump was the republican candidate: he is abusive to others publicly, as batterers tend to be behind closed doors. Hence we hear him, and his republican family members, parroting that the Ukrainian president said he didn't feel any pressure from Trump to investigate the Bidens. As if it would have been any safer for Zelensky to say that Trump was pressuring him, than it would be for a wife in couple's therapy to say her husband was battering her, in front of his face. That's not a safe setting.

So no thinking person is surprised now that Trump is verbally abusive towards witnesses who have testified against him, or the Democrats conducting the hearings. We know that his attacks will not only continue, but to increase as days turn into weeks. For he is not only a weak man, but he is a malignant narcissist who was unable to control himself even when House republicans asked him to, while they questioned the female ambassador that he smeared and removed from office. There are two key points there: he is especially prone to vicious attacks on women, and he lacks self-control even when it may be to his benefit.

Despite his bluffs, Trump does not want to be impeached. He is aware of what that means in terms of his place in history. We know that, despite his being a conspiracy theorist, his primary goal in attacking the Ukrainians who supported Clinton in 2016 isn't because they violated the law like the Russians did – rather, he wants to punish anyone and everyone who has ever opposed him.For he is a spiteful, cruel malignant narcissist.

His primary motivation in the context of a Senate trial will be to disrupt it as often as possible, by cheap attacks on any witnesses, Democrats, and anyone tangentially associated with the case against him. Now, that's a lot of people. But he will attack each one, and insist that all republicans join in with him.

The House committees have more information that documents Trump's corruption than has been made public at this time. Also, there will continue to be more leaks coming from the administration – especially the White House – in the weeks ahead. The sum total will make it more difficult for republicans to pretend it was a “perfect phone call,” rather than an illegal operation. This obviously will result in Trump's becoming more angry, and more intent upon attacking witnesses. He will become a dog in the late stages of rabies, seeking to bite enemies real and imagined with every step he takes.

And this brings us to the threats he poses domestically and on the international scene. Again, his nature compels him at attack those he sees as now supporting him. He will nor restrict himself to trying to intimidate them. Instead, he will hyper-actively seek to punish them with every power of the presidency. And even that will not be enough: he will attempt to exercise powers that no president has.

We've been in a dangerous time since the day he was sworn in. And we are entering a new phase of heightened threat. Yet with those dangers comes opportunity. We have the ability to kick the shit out of the Trump presidency.

Peace,
H2O Man

[Eliot Rosewater]

1. And 45 million Americans worship him BECAUSE he is a malignant narcissist.

Your neighbor, the person in line at the grocery store, WANTS Rump to KILL immigrants.

KILL women who have abortions.

KILL gay people who get married.

I believe that completely, sure they would be happy with just deporting all of us, but if we wont go, yes, that is what they would support.

[H2O Man]

5. Agree & respectfully disagree.

I don't think all 45 million are that hateful. Probably about half are. But the other half would be silent and turn their head away from anything Trump did. We know that from how they have reacted to brown-skinned chidren being kept in cages.

[Eliot Rosewater]

23. I suppose some would turn on him, but not half...either way, this is MADNESS

[H2O Man]

25. Right.

90%-plus of the non-violent half will still vote for Trump or whatever person they put up. They'll turn their heads, and largely ignore the violent outbursts from the other half. They are what my three uncles who fought in WW2 called "good Germans" who might not have agreed with Hitler, but didn't speak up.

And it is madness. Our country is as divided as it was circa 1968. Some of my friends from those days who were anti-war have morphed into their parents. They are closed-minded and bitter. Crazy.

[Me.]

2. What Would Fromm Say About The Republican Party, Do You Think?

It has to be more than worry about losing an election that binds them to him. The country is in real danger, he is destroying everything and that affects them too, yet they continue to have blinders on. It seems to me it is the same illness that has affected all followers of didtctors past and current.

And I will make a prediction...when the country wakes from this nightmare, and it will, the wrath of the people towards the Cons will be worse than the Betrayer on one of his bad days.

[H2O Man]

8. Great question.

Luckily, I don't need to speculate. A number of his writings touch on this, and one of his greatest books focuses on just that. He had a great understanding of systems, from families to schools to workplaces to nations. And you may have noticed, over the years, that I find systems fascinating. (Chloe called me after one of her classes a couple weeks ago, to say that while other students weren't familiar with the study of systems, her father had talked to her about them since she was a youngster.Her professor was impressed with what she already knew.)

A malignant narcissist tends to attract two types of followers in the context of politics. These include sociopaths who have previously not been cruel to their full potential before joining the "leader," and those who are on a lesser scale in terms of pathology, but who will be willing if not eager to follow orders. There are some outstanding documentaries on both types in Hitler's circle of madness, though it is sickening to sit through the films.

Perhaps an easier model is found in the infamous Manson family. He attracted several sociopaths, including some who would plateau in their later, post-Manson years. It is fairly common for sociopaths to do this after, say, ages 45 to 50. They are still people to be avoided, but presentless of a threat. He also had a collection of individuals that were anti-social, but would not likely have murdered had they not been under his influence.

We can safely say that Stephen Miller is in that first group, and that Pence is in the second. That's why we need to not only get rid of Trump, but the whole crew. Nothing good can come from them, for they have no Good in their being, even if they are kind to their pets.

[Me.]

27. Great Answer

and so much more than that re-election bit...

[H2O Man]

33. Fromm was so good.

His works have been a major influence on my understanding of the world.

[Me.]

34. Thank God You're Passing It On

[H2O Man]

36. I'm glad that

you included the word "It" there! (grin)

[Me.]

37. Careful....

[DENVERPOPS]

21. be careful what you wish for

The people who know say that 80% of all firearm owners are Republicans, and 50 million of them are TrumpHumpers.......

[H2O Man]

26. Lions and tigers and bears!

Oh my!

[DENVERPOPS]

35. Everyone

Everyone should get mentally prepared for the morning after the 2020 election. No matter who wins, it could be interesting.

You saw what happened in 2000.......2000 will be nothing compared to what could take place in November of 2020.......

[TheBlackAdder]

3. Correcting the title for ya: Fixing A-Whole.

[H2O Man]

10. I stand corrected!

Actually, I'm sitting. But I am still corrected!

Thank you!

[aggiesal]

17. I see what you did there ... A-Whole ...

[smirkymonkey]

4. K&R

[H2O Man]

11. Thank you!

[BSdetect]

6. Clearly he is going to use every possible means to claim he wins in 2020

Assuming he is not forced to resign before then.

And he will have the ratfucking GOP going all in with him.

And we know what happens if it goes to the SCOTUS to decide the validity of returns.

[H2O Man]

12. I agree 100%

Stephen Miller will recommend he call some "national emergency." I have no doubt. There is no rational reason to assume anyone in the administration at this late date would stand up to Trump, no matter how threatening his behavior becomes.

[pecosbob]

7. Had to go listen to this...Trumpty Dumpty has a hole in his head that needs fixing

Never was there a truer Trumpism...'It really doesn't matter if I'm wrong I'm right'

[H2O Man]

9. By coincidence,

if such a thing exists, I was listening to that very song while trying to think of a title for this essay!

[Hekate]

13. Kicking to read later. I don't usually quote Elves...

I don't usually quote Elves, but when it comes to our current circumstances as a republic/democracy, Galadriel's words haunt me: I feel the whole enterprise "stands on the edge of a knife."

Peace to you and yours.

[H2O Man]

15. I had to google

"Galadriel," wondering what Elves you meant! Ha! I know my children and numerous of my friends read or watch Tolkien, and really enjoy it. Being a rigid old codger, I haven't read fiction since high school. I do watch a few movies every now and then.

Yet I agree that the entire enterprise "stands on the edge of a knife." I like that!

[Hekate]

22. Awww, I read LOTR in 1965, when I was 17...

My whole family read sci-fi and fantasy, so when that showed up in the house I just thought it was another fantasy novel, albeit quite a good one. Exceptionally good, in its way. I was more than a little bemused when I went off to college that fall and discovered there were people who wanted to inhabit these worlds for real.

I chose to major in history, which is fact-based; should have majored in English, but that is another story. As a sideline to Asian history I chowed down on as many translated novels as I could, for insight into cultures not my own. That's how I view the best of fiction to this day: as insight into the human condition.

When Peter Jackson brought out the LOTR movies, he had an audience that had been waiting at least 30 years, including me. He hewed pretty closely to the text, because he knew a whole generation of us would scorn him if he didn't.

Certain scenes leapt out at me, as we were in the midst of BushCheney's rush to war. One was the Galadriel quote; the other was an exchange between Frodo and Gandalf:
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.
"So do I, and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we must decide is what to do with the time that is given us."

"The time that is given us" is reminiscent of Nancy Pelosi quoting the Founding Fathers on how they were "made for these times," and how she sees that "these times have come to us."

It rather haunts me, because I fear I am no longer up to these times. You are, though; I can tell. Thank you for all you do.

[H2O Man]

28. I think that I

became aware of LOTR when the Beatles were considering starring in a movie version. As I loved all things about the Beatles, I became aware of the names of four characters -- the ones the Beatles were considering playing. I don't remember them now, but I know where a book that tells is. I'm lucky to remember what shelf in what room about half of my books are. A librarian friend told me she was going to arrange all of them for me, though that was a couple of years ago.

I've been trying to walk my dog for a few miles a day. This old, long-retired is in training, to get back in shape for 2020. I want to be physically able to speak at colleges and rallies, and do some door-to-door campaigning next summer and fall. The old brain has likely recovered about as well as could be expected after last year's injury. But I still feel frustrated at times, knowing that I don't have the ability to do all the political work I'd like to.

The kids I talk to give me hope. Even when I realize that I tend to consider anyone under 40 as kids and young adults. I remember being at Onondaga in my twenties, and hearing Elders talk about 50 year-olds as "young people," and thinking that was interesting. How quickly the years go by.

[Hermit-The-Prog]

48. interesting; fiction yields empathy

There was a Nova episode broadcast last night about the history of violence. A turning point in how executions and other state-sponsored killing are perceived came with the Gutenberg press and the availability of novels for the "common man" to read. Those who read fiction score higher in empathy than those who do not.

Somewhat related, homicide rates declined as manners improved. I think it was Heinlein who said, through a character, that manners are the lubricant of the machinery of society; when manners decline, society self-destructs.

[spanone]

14. K&R...

👍🏼

[H2O Man]

16. Thank you!

[PWPippinesq]

18. "We have the ability to kick the shit out of the Trump presidency."

I believe even my most decorous wonderful mother would agree with the use of this phrase at this juncture in our history.

[H2O Man]

29. I think she would.

She sounds nice, from what you said, and because she is your Mom. I try not to curse ....except if I'm watching television alone, or at times on the internet.

[Karadeniz]

19. I'm saving this! Thanks for sharing!

[H2O Man]

30. Thanks!

[Perseus]

20. That is all fine and good, but the real problem right now is not trump, its his enablers

trump is trump, a narcissistic sociopath, a very evil being, but we know what he has done, what he will do, which is continue his life of crime and treason, but the real problem is his enablers who will keep him in a position of power knowing who he is.

Psychiatrists can evaluate him from afar, one on one, and any other way, but his enablers will dismiss the results and continue to protect him, they are the majority where it counts, in the Senate. That is my fear, that after all the good work Democrats have done, after all the consistent evidence of his crimes and misdemeanors, that republicans in the Senate will give him the pass and not forcing out of office.

Instead of spending so much time with the same tune, talking about how bad trump is, the work now has to be on how/what can be done to wake his supporters to the fact that they are being sold broken goods, that their lives are and will be worst off of this creature stays in power.

The other thing is, what is it that has these republicans kissing his ass? I know we all say "they are compromised", but where is the proof? Until that proof stays in hiding we cannot assert that as the truth. Its almost like witchcraft, that they were given a potion, they drunk it and now they have full allegiance to the creature. It is hard to understand how any person can demean themselves the way republicans do. I mean, Perry saying that god has chosen this bastard? What happened to Lindsey Graham during one round of golf? Did he drink the potion and now he has become a zombie?

The only way republicans will turn around is if they find their base is abandoning them, why is the media, and Democrats not showing these people they are worst today than they were during Obama?

We are in a weird situation, I wish I had a magic lamp, not to make magic, but that could at least provide answers. We all need to start getting scared, I have seen this movie before and it lasts a long time, the devastation is huge and awful, and by the time the idiots who follow the creature realize it, its too late.

If his enablers had principles, if they were not under this magic spell, if they had any sense of patriotism then the articles about trump, his evilness, his psychotic behaviour would not be needed because we would know this would be the end of his gig as POTUS, but that is not the case, unfortunately.

[H2O Man]

31. Interesting.

You raise good points, valid points.

I'm old enough to remember Malcolm X don't aim at the puppet, go for the puppeteer. Good advice. I also remember Malcolm saying that rather than fighting on one front, he believed in fighting on all fronts. I always liked that, too.

We are, as the old saying goes, able to do more than one thing at a time. Hence, many of my OP/posts focus on issues other than Trump. In fact, I have one for tomorrow, regarding a Congressional re-election campaign for 2020, which is heating up locally this week. Claudia Tenney, who rivals Trump in being an obnoxious liar and creep -- is at the heart of it.

One of her tactics is to try to reduce support for Rep. Anthony Brindisi on the issue of impeachment. Even Steve Bannon recently was talking about this. Hence, to be helpful to Anthony, it's important that I keep up to date on the impeachment hearing. More, I have friends who ask me what I think Trump is likely to do. As I'm a retired forensic mental health worker, it is natural that I see it in that context. While many others may well have their own insights on this, I'm good with voicing my opinion.

It is true that the mental health experts speaking about the level of danger he represents have done so at a distance. It is the only disorder, of course, where they can accurately do so. If one were to interview Trump in an office, they would know he is a liar and a bag of hot air. But they would need inormation from other sources, including those who know him, those who have investigated him, those who have been victimized by him, and any film or print stories by and about him. It's a good thing that there is so much.

Now, about those puppeteers and their puppets in Congress. Safe to say their primary interest is financial. Martin Luther King, Jr. provided the best model for opporations to catch their attention. There are numerous opportunities for decent people to communicate with them in the only language they speak.

[coeur_de_lion]

24. Great essay, and lots of great replies

Trump does not want to be impeached. But he will be. It is inevitable.

And I suppose he will go apeshit, more than usual.

Declare a national emergency, try to establish martial law.

If only he would have a stroke before he has the chance to do that. Or die in his sleep.

I've never wished for the death of anyone before.

[H2O Man]

32. He will be impeached.

I'll be satisfied with impeached, possibly convicted, and defeated in 2020 if he's still in office. And I hope that NYS prosecutes him the second he leaves office.

[malthaussen]

38. Frankly, I don't think I care.

Donald Trump is one individual of increasingly diminishing resources. What is of interest is how long his running dogs are going to continue to use him as their shield, and how far they are willing to go to destroy the Republic. I do not and have not believed that Donald Trump mesmerizes and controls old pols of long experience (naming no names); I do think they consider him a useful idiot, much as does Mr Putin. In this I could be wrong: we have considerable testimony to the ability of other malignant narcissists to enslave the wills of people we would otherwise expect to be courageous and independent. But perhaps that doesn't matter, either: what matters is who will go along with Mr Trump, and what they will do to protect him (and incidentally, themselves). So far, the conduct of most of the main players on the GOP side does not give one any confidence that they will suddenly change their tune and work to best serve the nation.

A person's power extends only so far as his leverage; his leverage extends only so far as others are willing to enable him. So far, it looks like the GOP are willing to go to any lengths in that respect.

-- Mal

[H2O Man]

39. This past weekend,

I took my two heavyweight boxers to a fight card to watch potential opponents in the 2020 Golden Gloves. I believe in knowing the opposition.

[malthaussen]

40. Oh, but of course.

But is Donald Trump really the opposition? Or is the opposition the gang of idiots running interference for him? In boxing, it is fairly simple: you have the boxer, and his trainer/corner man. Mr Trump has an entire apparatus working on his behalf. Whether they are working at his explicit direction is another question, but it's moot: their interests converge. As someone said upthread, it's no mystery what Donald Trump will do. (Well, I suppose the specifics may be mysterious, but there's no way to divine them, anyway) What he will get away with -- ah, now that's interesting! But to have an answer to that, short of waiting on events, we'd need an understanding of a much vaster system than just the workings of one human psyche.

It is interesting to me, in the context of leverage, that Mr Trump has gone to considerable lengths to piss off just about every institution in the government that he would need to support any overtly unconstitutional acts. Of course, he can't help it, he has no sense of self-discipline or long-term thinking. But he's injured a lot of people with very long memories. Given that most of his allies are in the Legislature, his leverage may be too limited to pull off some of the nightmare scenarios that people are cuddling to their chests.

Which is not to disparage that understanding of one human psyche. Many people are wondering about Mr Trump's brain, and what he will do next. My focus tends to be less on individuals, and more on systems, too, and on how patterns of behavior can tell us which way the cat will jump. However Mr Trump might wish to project whatever power he does possess, that projection has to be through the hands of others. To what extent those others will cooperate seems to me to be the question of most import.

-- Mal

[H2O Man]

41. Oh, I study

both the fighters and their cornermen. That's always the best option, in my opinion. I want to know how they operate as a unit.

[malthaussen]

42. Exactly.

I fear though, that there are a number of DUers who concentrate on the glamorous position, and pay little attention to the important structure beneath. Someone like you who has worked for years in local government knows that things like school boards and county commissioners are, in some very real ways, more important than who gets to be President every four years.

So many people construct nightmares of things Mr Trump will do. I have little doubt that he would try to nuke Des Moines if he felt it expedient (although he'd probably go after San Francisco first). Whether STRATCOM would suffer a sudden inexplicable outburst of technical failures and incompetence if he ordered such a thing is the real material question.

Which leads me tangentially to a thought I've been thinking lately. Criminals are limited in their actions by an estimation of what they can get away with (well, the sane ones are, anyway). I've been thinking that the real damage Donald Trump has done has been to show criminals that they can get away with a lot worse than they thought they could. If this were the case, alas, it makes it even more important that he be brought to humiliating justice. I have not much confidence that that is going to be the case, though. And first of all, it is necessary to stop the bleeding. (I note that Mr Trump has inflicted real trauma on the US nation, and it should be treated as such)

-- Mal

[H2O Man]

43. Be careful!

If Stephen Miller is reading DU today, Des Moines is toast.

I agree with you fully. As Malcolm X often said, don't aim for the puppet, aime for the puppeteer. Wise man, he was.

I've long enjoyed the study of systems. Erich Fromm wrote some amazingly insightful things that apply here. While the system that Trump fronts will continue long after he is gone, at this time, they are fully connected to him. And they will remain so, until they can no longer capitalize upon him.

As he spins further out of control, we have a golden opportunity to use Trump against them.

[malaise]

44. Great post

[H2O Man]

45. Thank you!

I appreciate that, especially because of how much I appreciate you!

[malaise]

46. Back at yah

[Hermit-The-Prog]

47. Chairman Nadler just reapplied the pressure

Agolf Twitler may have been feeling relieved that the public hearings before the Intelligence Committee have concluded. Now comes the Judiciary Committee and Nadler sent the letter asking if Twitler will be attending the hearings.

[H2O Man]

49. I really like Chairman Nadler.

I've followed him for many years. I remember telling my oldest son when the Trump-Russian scandal was being investigated that Nadler is one of the most intelligent, decent people in DC.

[Hermit-The-Prog]

50. any ideas on what may happen inside WH over this part?

[Kablooie]

51. Just wait till he's "exonerated" by the Senate.

He will truly consider himself to be king of the world and his mania will kick into a higher gear than we’ve ever seen it.
That’s when his inner Hitler will really take over.

It’s not going to be fun.