Breaking - Newsweek - Ukrainian plane struck by and anti-aircraft missile system

[Leghorn21]

The Ukrainian flight that crashed just outside the Iranian capital of Tehran was struck by an anti-aircraft missile system, two Pentagon officials and an Iraqi intelligence official told Newsweek.

Ukraine International Airlines Flight 752, a Boeing 737–800 en route from Tehran Imam Khomeini International Airpot to Kyiv's Boryspil International Airport, stopped transmitting data Tuesday just minutes after takeoff and not long after Iran launched missiles at military bases housing U.S. and allied forces in neighboring Iraq. The aircraft is believed to have been struck by a Russia-built Tor M-1 surface-to-air missile system, known to NATO as Gauntlet, the three officials told Newsweek.

Two Pentagon officials assess that the incident was accidental. Iran's anti-aircraft were likely active following the country's missile attack, which came in response to the U.S. killing last week of Revolutionary Guard Quds Force commander Major General Qassem Soleimani, sources said.


https://www.newsweek.com/iranians-shot-down-ukraine-flight-mistake-sources-1481313?amp=1&__twitter_impression=true

[Dennis Donovan]

1. You don't say...

I dealt with a lot of crap on this thread yesterday...

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100212852151

Thank you for your OP!

[H2O Man]

12. !!!

[spanone]

2. Was it also an accident that trump killed Soleimani? His killing led to this 'accident'.

more blood on your hands, mr trump.

[maxsolomon]

17. And the stampede at Suleimani's funeral.

Trump has killed over 200 people because he got angry.

[Leghorn21]

3. Rest of article:

U.S. Central Command declined to comment on the matter when contacted by Newsweek.

The incident was first reported by Iranian semi-official media outlets, which cited the country's Red Crescent Society as assessing that the initial cause appeared to be mechanical failure. The Ukrainian embassy in Tehran shared this view in a statement, but later retracted it, with Kyiv warning against any preliminary assessments.

Images began to circulate Wednesday of what appeared to be fragments of a Tor M-1 missile said to have been found in a suburb southwest of Tehran. On Thursday, Ukraine Security Council Secretary Oleksiy Danylov said Thursday in a statement that contact with a Tor M-1 system was among the potential causes for the plane's destruction that his country was looking into.

[samnsara]

4. more blood on trumps* hands

[Calista241]

45. Sorry, but the Iranians shooting down a passenger airline from Ukraine

without a single American on board sounds like an Iranian problem to me. Even if there were American civilians on board, this is 100% on the Iranians.

[maxsolomon]

60. Trump's lashing out was the catalyst

that led directly to this fuck up by Iran. No Suleimani assassination, no downed Ukrainian jet.

Same for the 50 killed in the stampede at the funeral. No killing, no funeral, no stampede.

[SammyWinstonJack]

67. Yep, this is all on tRump. His temper tantrum is to blame for this.

[Calista241]

87. Well if that's the case, I'm going to blame Nikolaus Otto

If that motherfucker hadn't invented the internal combustion engine, we wouldn't even need oil. Without the need for oil, the middle east would be super mega peaceful, Trump wouldn't have been elected, most of us probably wouldn't even be around, and everyone else would live happily ever after.

[TheRealNorth]

5. What is it with the Ukrainians

And flying civilian aircraft through areas where you have active conflicts.

[Dennis Donovan]

7. This on Iranian officials

The aircraft was allowed to depart IKA (Khomeini International Airport - that's its actual name ) while the Iranian military was waiting for a possible response to their missile attack. It was up to them to ground all flights since they knew the situation could get hot very quickly.

(On edit - got the airport name wrong)

[killaphill]

68. Wrong

IF the plane was in fact shot down, this is on Donald Trump. He's the one who started this mess. Of course, the Iranians are still saying its a mechanical failure, and I see no reason not to believe their findings.

[Dennis Donovan]

69. They allowed the aircraft to depart - every aircraft should've been grounded. n/t

[EX500rider]

79. Iranians are still saying its a mechanical failure, and I see no reason not to believe their finding

...lol Right, cause if you can't trust the Ayatollahs, you can you trust, right?

[getagrip_already]

52. They don't seem to like russian missiles flying in their vicinity....

Russian system, russian tech's, ukranian plane.....

I wouldn't be so quick to blame it on iran. The last plane shot down had a riussian trigger finger also.

[wnylib]

74. What motive would Russia have? I can't see any.

Nothing for Russia to gain from downing a Ukranian flight at this time and place. For effect against Ukraine, wouldn't Russia want to target a plane with Ukrainian passengers? I'm sure Russian intel is capable of finfing out the nationalities of passengers.

63 passengers were Canadian, and several if them were of Iranian descent. 80 were Iranian. Iran and Russia are allies. Only 11 Ukranians were on board and 9 of them were crew members.

Looks more like an accidental shoot down by Iran.

[getagrip_already]

76. Some of those are dual nationals.....

The count doesn't add up otherwise. But it's not the only time russian missiles accidentally downed a commercial jet. All they needed was it was ukranian and enough doubt to cover it up.

The most obvious answer is it was an iranian hothead. But be careful not to jump to conclusions until you know if it was an iranian fire control team or a russian one.

[wnylib]

86. Yes, some of the passengers had dual

citizenshio. That's why I mentioned the Iranian descent of several Canadians. I live near Buffalo and US and Canadians cross the border in this area daily, for jobs, shopping, entertainment, etc. Buffalo media include news about and for Canadians in the area. They have reported on the individuals from Toronto and other areas in Ontario who were on the flight. A lot were citizens of Iranian descent.

I have not jumped to any conclusions. I have pointed out the most logical possibility in the circumstances. I have some questions about things stated in the Newsweek article that I will cover in another post.

One thing that would make me question the accidental shootdown hypothesis (no proof yet) is that Trump is happy to call it that. I never trust what he says and have never agreed with him yet on anything. Scary to think that he and I might be on the same page about something.

[Buckeyeblue]

81. They changed the narrative. That's what they achieved

[EX500rider]

80. No Russian controlled SAM systems in range...

...their nearest are in NW Syria, over 800 miles away.

[getagrip_already]

82. source?

Every shiny new missile battery comes with russian fire control "consultants". It doesn't have to be a russian battery; there are russians at the controls though.

[EX500rider]

84. Where's your source for Russian controlled SAM's outside Tehran?

Consultant's usually won't be pulling the trigger on active systems, there would be a Iranian in the loop and in control.
Tor missile systems have been in operation since 1986, Iran will have figured out how to operate them by now.

[Agschmid]

63. They live in a region with active conflict and want to leave occasionally...

[bullwinkle428]

6. Wow - I was willing to bet big $$$ that this would eventually surface

as the truthful explanation for the crash, but was thinking that the time measurement to revelation might occur in years, and not days.

[StarryNite]

8. An accident?

I'm not buying that.

[MineralMan]

10. The USA has no anti-aircraft arms near the Tehran airport.

The plane crashed shortly after takeoff. How would the US have shot down that plane? Look at a map, please.

Oh, and welcome to DU...

[MineralMan]

15. Where would a US anti-aircraft missile have been fired from?

Do you know where Tehran is in Iran? We don't have any military presence in that country. So, we really couldn't have shot that plane down. We're not flying US fighters over Iran, either.

Why would you think the USA would shoot down a Ukrainian airliner? I'm really puzzled. You've asked this question twice already, on your first day on DU.

[dware]

70. Trash taken to the curb by MIRT.

[Eliot Rosewater]

14. Russian built missile

https://www.newsweek.com/iranians-shot-down-ukraine-flight-mistake-sources-1481313?amp=1&__twitter_impression=true

Why would anyone HERE wonder if it was us doing it?

sigh

[MineralMan]

16. Well, the person asking is new here today, so maybe

not so well-informed.

[Eliot Rosewater]

18. Oh yeah, maybe.

[MineralMan]

19. Well, it could be...

I mean...maybe. Interesting screen name, though.

[Eliot Rosewater]

21. I listen to both sides, I am a small business owner, and this new Obamacare thing I am hearing

about, it worries me. So I thought I would call in to your show, just found out about it today.

I never respond directly to them, they sincerely scare me, I dont think I am safe...

[MineralMan]

24. Ima let you finish...

[MineralMan]

22. Ah, Newsweek a click-bait site. I get it.

Thanks, Максий...

[Dennis Donovan]

28. You're being dishonest - the linked article is from this morning (before new info)

UPDATED ON: JANUARY 9, 2020 / 8:02 AM / CBS/AP

please self-delete.

[MineralMan]

29. Interesting information, isn't it?

Implications that the US might have shot down a plane shortly after takeoff from Tehran. Must have been our anti-aircraft missile installation there in Iran, I guess. Oh...wait...

[Dennis Donovan]

36. He's posted that link 2x, after being told the info was obsolete

He has a purpose here today, apparently. Emailed my favorite MIRT member.

Swoop! MIRT be like the Batman!

[MineralMan]

47. Ah, well...

Retraining in progress...I can see the memo now:

"When creating screen names on American websites, do not use Russian spelling transpositions. Instead, utilize American-sounding names like Butch or Stevie."

[MineralMan]

32. Yes, I have been a DU member for a long time.

I've seen just about everything show up here. Nothing novel today, though.

[Dennis Donovan]

26. Newsweek is independent, not owned by anyone other than itself since 2018

Please, you're new here. If you want to stay, please try to source your opinions better?

[Dennis Donovan]

33. That article was published 8am this morning

...before this new info. You're spreading disinfo. Paging MIRT.

[MineralMan]

35. Sold "on recent years," eh?

That's an odd way to put it. Normally, one would say "in recent years."

[dware]

71. Definitely a russian bot. nt.

[MineralMan]

73. Oh, yes. Clear from the very first post.

[MineralMan]

38. Well, our new friend, Максий, appears to have been escorted

out of the building. Imagine that...

[Dennis Donovan]

39. Just in time for a late dinner in Saint Petersburg

[MineralMan]

43. And perhaps a refresher training session on creating screen names.

Maxiy = Максий

Sheesh!

[Renew Deal]

37. Comrade Tombstone is no longer with us.

[MineralMan]

40. That was odd. why would someone new sign up here with a name

ending in "iy?" That's a uniquely Russian (or other cyrillic language) spelling, transposed into English.

Максий = Maxiy

Funny.

[Dennis Donovan]

44. Vladimir was too on-the-nose

[getagrip_already]

54. putin did.....

and he has a grudge against the ukraine.

[stillcool]

11. well...if the Pentagon says it's true..

[Beringia]

27. So missles fired are automatic

No human to press the button?

[FBaggins]

62. They can be

Depending on the system

But it wouldn’t make much sense

[Zoonart]

30. So we are now to believe that Iran's

super pin-point targeting of missiles ,meant to cause absolutely no casualties, was 100% accurate- yet also ACCIDENTALLY took out a Ukrainian Jetliner?
Okay.... let's see the passenger manifest shall see?

[totodeinhere]

41. I think it almost has to be an accident. You can say what you want about the Iranians

but they are not stupid. It would not be in their interest to be seen intentionally shooting down a commercial airliner, especially one with their own citizens and citizens from neutral countries on it.

[MineralMan]

48. Someone was probably a little trigger-happy.

I doubt very much that was an intentional shoot-down.

[sarisataka]

49. Different type of missile

One set was launched into Iraq.

This one was on an active AA unit who saw a plane flying low over their capital and some reacted before thinking.

[Brother Buzz]

50. Could be, a Ukrainian plane wasn't dialed into Iran's IFF (Identification Friend or Foe)...

transponder codes

[Zolorp]

56. Ballistic missiles fired at Iraq and the anti-aircraft missile that took down this aircraft

These are not the same systems. Apparently, anti-aircraft systems were turned on to detect aircraft after the attack started, detected this aircraft, and struck the aircraft accurately. Al indications are, this was accidental. Human error probably enters into the equation, too.

[EX500rider]

83. Most likely reason there were no casualties....

....was the US troops were already hiding in bunkers when the missiles arrived.
I doubt the missiles were pinpoint accurate, no way to mate off the shelf GPS with IRBM's like Iran has been able to do with UAV's and cruise missile. More likely we just got lucky...four of the sixteen missiles failed in flight.

[mchill]

34. But if Trump had not......

[Takket]

42. It is not an "accident"

The system was active because Iran struck our base and was worried we would strike back. They struck our base because drumpf foolishly chose to kill Soleimani. If not for his irresponsible behavior setting off a chain of events, the plane would not have been shot down. It is not an accident.

[totodeinhere]

46. Yes, it wouldn't have happened if Trump had not killed their general.

But it was an accident in that they did not intentionally shoot down that specific airliner. It would not be in their interest to be seen shooting down a commercial airliner from a neutral country..

[BamaRefugee]

51. Looks pretty easy to me. Putin at war with Ukraine, Putin allied with Iran, Putin tell them to shoot

down Ukrainian plane, probably with someone aboard that Putin wants gone.
THE FOG OF WAR!
Man I hate that saying nowadays, it's used as a universal excuse for ANYTHING.

[wnylib]

85. Except that 63 passengers were Canadian and

several of those were of Iranian descent. 80 pasdengers were Iranian. There were also some Swedes on board. WaPo listed the numbers by nationality yesterday. Only 2 passengers were Ukranian and not likely people of the stature Putin would target or we would have heard from Ukraine by now that so and so was on board.

I do not believe Russia had anything to do with this. Putin is a #!$;& but is not responsible for every bad thing that happens on planet earth. Many of them, yes, but not all.

[sarisataka]

53. No surprise

Except to those who wanted it to be something else.

The next questions would be Russia or Iran and accident or intentional.

Since I prefer simplest explanations, Iran and accident.

[infullview]

55. How come everyone's afraid to state the obvious...

If not for tRump, these people probably wouldn't have died.

[kiranon]

61. It is called proximate cause. But for Trump's actions, the flight would not have gone down.

[infullview]

66. blood on his hands as i see it...

[mnhtnbb]

78. So, does that open the door for families of passengers

to sue Trump for wrongful death?

[Cartoonist]

57. I await Iran's response

I want to see apologetic grovelling.

[jdl123]

58. civilian flights

Why in the world wouldn't Iran ground all civilian flights during this time period? Stupidity abounds, I'm talking about all countries, not just Iran.

[SCVDem]

59. This missile is radar guided.

An engine on fire might indicate a heat seeking guidance system.

Time to do an inventory, Iran.

[usaf-vet]

64. Step by step lie by lie moving us to a war with Iran.

The Iranian version of the Iraqi version of there are weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

Rumsfeld BS "Somewhere north, south, east, or west of Bagdad"

[IronLionZion]

65. Did Iran really believe USA would send a bomber plane to Tehran?

If Trump was sick and twisted enough to order a hit on Tehran, Navy would launch missiles from ships in the Persian Gulf. No chance in hell Air Force would risk sending bombers at this point.

If we were in a bad enough conflict to send bombers deep into Iranian territory, Air Force would send fighter jets to protect them. And if they sent stealth bombers, the nearest forward operating bases are still too far away. It wouldn't be as quick as some paranoid people may imagine.

Some dumbass high on adrenaline got trigger happy and made a horrible mistake. They clearly didn't think this through.

[Skittles]

89. there is no telling what the fascist dictator-wannabe warmongering piece of shit Trump will do

it's not like anyone is going to stop him

[bullwinkle428]

72. UPDATE : Iran says it will let Canadian investigators join crash probe

OTTAWA -- Iran's civil aviation authority says it has invited Canadian investigators from the Transportation Safety Board to join a growing team probing the Ukraine Airlines plane crash outside Tehran that killed 138 people believed bound for Canada.

Among the hypotheses is that an Iranian air-defence missile shot the plane down, possibly by accident. Ukrainian officials have said that's on their list of potential causes for the crash.

Two U.S. officials told The Associated Press Thursday it was "highly likely" that an Iranian anti-aircraft missile downed the jetliner. The officials, citing U.S. intelligence, spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive information. They had no immediate information on intent.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/iran-says-it-will-let-canadian-investigators-join-plane-crash-probe-1.4759850

[DFW]

75. If it was shot down, then it was shot down by itchy Iranian fingers

That close to the Tehran airport right after takeoff would only be followed on Iranian radar.

And the question as to why the Iranians would shoot down their own plane loses a lot of steam when one takes into account that it was a Ukrainian plane.

[getagrip_already]

77. or cold russian fingers......

Russia usually has it's techs on fire control teams. The systems all have transponder reception capability, so they can see its a commercial jet. They can also its climbing, not attacking.

[wnylib]

88. A few questions or points about the Newsweek

article. It said that some fragments found in the area match the type of AA material that would have been used if this was a Ukranian mistake. It does not state who found those fragments or who has them.

It also mentioned the types of events that could have caused the crash and debris pattern. One of the possibilities was a drone. It did not say for certain that it was a drone and I am NOT assuming it was. I am only pointing out that the investigation is ongoing so nothing is conclusive yet. Some things need to be ruled out. The black boxes should clear things up. Trudeau and Zelensky will not give up until they have definitive answers.

As I am typing this, NPR is reporting that Trudeau has said that he "has some information" that it was a missile that brought down the plane, probably Iranian, and probably was a mistake. Did not name the source of his information.