If Trump is acquitted, this will become the number one question.

[shockey80]

Can we win an election that is rigged against us? If acquitted, the election becomes the last line of defense against a madness that cannot be explained. I believe I now know how many Germans felt in the 1930's, 1940's. They recognized the madness, they saw millions of Germans follow the madness, they tried to stop the madness. There were many attempts to assassinate Hitler. He had amazing luck just like Trump, until he didn't.

If acquitted Trump will go on a vengeance filled, propaganda filled rampage. He will openly rig the election.

He will make this part of his campaign. The fake Mueller report, the fake impeachment, I was proved innocent both times. It is the Democrats who are the liars. They are trying to destroy the country and constitution with their fake investigations. He will say this everyday, all day.

I don't know if we can win an election that is rigged, that scares me. We are witnessing a madness that is not unique. This type of madness has existed throughout history. It usually results in a great tragedy. Then people rebuild for the better, until the next time they repeat the madness.

[C_U_L8R]

1. If Trump doesn't win, they are all going to jail

They'll pull out all the stops to rig the election

[dchill]

3. And they've had decades of practice.

[not_the_one]

7. In my wild swings from optimism to pessimism, I am currently in the pessimism trajectory,

brought on by Collins' and Murkowski's frantic leap at Schiff's repeat of CBS's "pike" report, as an excuse to fold on witnesses. (CBS better step up to the plate and confirm, or admit they were used as a diversion by the likes of Karl Rove, etc. You know he is still oozing around in the background of all this...)

The Democratic house managers did such a fantastic job, I thought there may be hope.

Alas, it was not to be. The two Trump whores were so quick in their faux outrage, one would almost think it was choreographed.

My only desperate pipedream/silver lining for all of this, at this point, is that it results in the complete destruction of the republiKKKan party. But that would require accurate voting.

Again, alas......

[cilla4progress]

85. Thank you for describing my trajectory

perfectly.

Comforting to know I'm not alone.

[Blaukraut]

87. Same. Going from hope to despair like a roller coaster.

My husband gets mad at me when I'm on the downward trajectory. I think he feels the same inside, but does not want it to overwhelm him.

[cilla4progress]

89. I can relate.

It's weird and similar here. We are very minimal in outright conversation about this fascist menace we are confronting. It feels like inviting evil into our orbit. I think I'm beginning to experience negative health impacts from it. I'm a very idealistic person, and this wounds me to my core.

We take refuge in like-minded friends, our pets, our wonderful progressive adult daughter, our many interests, and nature.

We are both gobsmacked to see recent FB posts suddenly popping up from someone we considered a friend and stable, full of invective - referring to Democrats as Nazis, and the like.

While I continue ue to work in my social justice career, and plan to work on GOTV this year, I need to do some distancing. I've kind of given up on our country for now, in that I see the writing on the wall. I no longer hold out hope for redemption in the short run. I think this bound to blow up - though what that looks like, and how it ends, is uncertain.

I expect the great pendulum may swing back - though not necessarily in my lifetime. By then the damage may have been done, and complete.

[LiberalArkie]

16. Like Cheney and others went to jail?

[mountain grammy]

24. Exactly!

[RVN VET71]

27. Cheney, Rove, Abrams and other traitors of GWB's administration

should all have been hanged for outing Valerie Plame. Even George H.W. Bush stated publicly his opinion that the outing of an undercover agent of the United States was the vilest, the worst form of treason, warranting death by hanging. As a former head of the C.I.A., Papa Bush, I believe, felt a strong bond towards agents of that agency and a deep, deep admiration for the life-endangering service they provided this country.

[Skittles]

71. yup

remember, we were told we needed to "LOOK FORWARD" - well, HERE WE ARE

[RKP5637]

2. tRump's agenda IMO is to destroy the US and set himself up as some type of dictator. If so, there

are plenty of damn fools in the US to go along with it.

[SayItLoud]

28. IMO tRUMP has been and will always be about

$$$$$$$$. America, running for potus they meant NOTHING to him. It was all a PR stunt to get closer to banks, foreign leaders and find a source for $$$$$$$ which had dried up until the Russians started $$$$$$ laundering through tRUMP Org. Suddenly he got much more than PR, he got Americas' and (many of the worlds' most closely guarded secrets. He's already via Kushner, and the #TrumpCrimeFamily exploited those secrets. A journalist was murdered because of him, soldiers are suffering because of him...and all because of $$$$$$.

If some numbskull like Parnas can video tape tRUMP for over an hour, what the F do you suppose a sophisticated Gov. like Saudi Arabia or Israel has done???

He's selling out America now and when he's out (one way or the other) everything, every secret in Americas' vaults will be up for sale, trade or barter. Just sayin...there's a LONG tail of trouble no matter what comes of this trial..

[RKP5637]

64. And a good portion of the citizens of the US still don't get WTF is going on. US United Stupidity

[cilla4progress]

4. Fight of our lives.

Thankfully we have Schiff, Pelosi, Demmings, Jeffries, Dem. Senators, Maddow and so many others with us.

So.long as they continue to have their liberty.

I expect there will be attempts at political imprisonments...and worse...

Putin's bitch now

[pangaia]

37. ",,,at political imprisonments...and worse..."

yes, exactly.. no doubt..
schiff especially is in grave danger

[EndlessWire]

46. He could attempt to dissolve Congress.

When the game is up, and he does not need a front. But, that would require our military and all the police to throw in with him.

[cilla4progress]

47. He could commit

genocide.

[Dopers_Greed]

83. He already has

1. His deliberate neglect of Puerto Rico amounts to genocide
2. Allowed genocide of the Kurds to happen to benefit his family business

[pangaia]

69. everybody here, well most, well many, say OH the military and police

they are on 'our' side.. they will never let anything happen..
blah blah..


I don;t believe it for a minute...
just for a current example, look at HK !

[ancianita]

84. The key is whether law enforcement and military have citizens' backs or their paymasters' backs.

Last edited Sun Jan 26, 2020, 04:58 PM - Edit history (1)

[pangaia]

88. of course....

or just "FOLLOW ORDERS."

[Wellstone ruled]

5. If Trump is vindicated,

the Rethug Party is toast for five Generations. This will open the door for future Investigations that will last for at least a decade.

[Runningdawg]

6. Win OR lose I still think we are screwed

If he wins again, he will go full dictator.
If he loses the only incentive he has to leave office peacefully is to be the commander of the New Republic Of The South, FULL TIME.
Either way, the cult grows stronger.

[louis-t]

8. I believe they will try to eliminate all elections.

Mitch McConnell will appoint all future presidents for life.

[Jim__]

9. How many elections does the opposition win in Russia?

We'll have about the same odds.

[EndlessWire]

48. I agree. n/t

[evertonfc]

10. He will be acquitted

It was the chance we took when we impeached. We celebrated. Now, they will celebrate. He will give a SOTU address and tear into Democrats. Then, the campaign for 2020 really starts

[world wide wally]

11. You have to seriously wonder how any American could WANT this

[EndlessWire]

51. Yeah.

It is just incredible that someone possessed of Democracy, no matter how imperfect it may be, would actually vote to give it up just to get an extra cheeseburger a month, and to work all their life so a 1%er can upgrade his yacht.

To live in fear. Who would vote to live in fear? My guess is some of the Rust Belters who are following this soap opera might rethink their vote this next time around. But, that might be too late.

We need to keep a list of the Senate voters who actually vote to let Trump off. Just for the truth of it.

[uponit7771]

12. K&R, Pelosi should go nuclear...announce there's no election certification without evidence then let

... the Red Don and the M$M go nuts getting all the attention one can get out of that announcement

[TryLogic]

30. "no election certification without evidence"

Whoa, I like that! No election certification without evidence. Makes perfect sense.

[hughee99]

72. Maybe she should just announce that she won't certify unless the Dem wins.

Because there’s only two possibilities here, either we will win or they cheated.

[uponit7771]

73. +1

[My Pet Orangutan]

15. Suggest you delete.

[A HERETIC I AM]

41. Why?

And out of curiosity who are you to tell a member of over 15 years how or what to post?

Less than a month as a member and under 100 posts are no credentials to try and throw your weight around

[My Pet Orangutan]

44. 18 U.S. Code 373

[A HERETIC I AM]

53. Oh, please

The poster didn’t “Solicit” anyone to do anything.

But it’s good that you are here to steer us right.

Who knows what crimes other long term members might commit if not for your expertise

[muntrv]

43. What is the proper response to a dictatorship, then?

[AncientGeezer]

61. That question presumes 1 exists....the voters in the U.S. won't..

allow that..Congress or the courts won't....hell the military won't allow it.
Calling for assassinations...even with the dumpster fire in the WH is bad form.

[sarisataka]

39. Advocating assassination

As a means means of leadership change on Democratic Underground, ironic.

[muntrv]

42. What is the proper response to a dictatorship, then?

[spin]

45. I lived through the JFK assassination. ...

I never want to see days like that again.

The proper response to Trump is to vote him out in 2020. That’s what you do in a representative democracy or constitutional republic. Assassinations and coup d'état s are tactics used in banana republics and usually cause more problems than they solve.

[sarisataka]

54. More dictators have been forced from power

by popular opposition than assassination.

Also, this talk of dictatorship is over the top hyperbole that would be ridiculed if there was a Democrat in the White House. If the impeachment results in acquittal (a near certainty) and he gets a second term (a distinct possibility) that does not equal dictatorship.

[moondust]

14. Why wait?

He knows he's going to be acquitted and probably already has operatives like Rudy soliciting election interference in exchange for generous U.S. taxpayer "gifts."

[elias7]

17. Ironically, the Mueller report had nothing to do with Dems

[jimlup]

18. Trump will win the vote in the Senate

we HAVE TO WIN this coming November. We have to make the majority so large that it can't be rigged by Trump or his puppet master Putin.

That goes for both the Senate and the Presidency.

[OMGWTF]

19. And we have to keep the House. Without them, we would know nothing of these crimes.

[NBachers]

25. Calling all "alternate candidate purity voters of conscience or vengeance . . ."

[EndlessWire]

52. I agree. n/t

[LiberalLovinLug]

20. The argument about IF we should impeach is over

Thank gawd they actually did it.

And the reason for it was NOT to win an election. It was to defend the democracy. The Republic, the Constitution.

If they hadn't, history would not look kindly on them. Just as history will not look kindly at Republicans who still insist on defending him.

I believe that IF we lose, it won't be because we dared to impeach. It will be because of gerrymandering, voter suppression, and trolling fake news, especially on Facebook. The idea that we should have just tip toed into November with blinders on, without even addressing his criminality, that that would have better positioned ourselves to win? No I don't believe that.

[EndlessWire]

55. Well said. n/t

[Mr. Ected]

21. Rigged?

That's what we're expecting. A replay of 2016, only bolder, bigger and better. That's what they want us to expect.

How about no election, due to a self-inflicted "national emergency? Or how about no Democratic candidate, due to false charges and ensuing false arrest and incarceration?

Tinfoil hat paranoia, perhaps, but after what we've lived through the past 3+ years, can any of us realistically discount it?

[iluvtennis]

22. we can beat him in Nov 2020 - we just need to turn out in high, high numbers. nt

[Eyeball_Kid]

81. The acquittal amounts to a massive Trumpian power grab that will

nullify the next election. Trump will NOT permit a Democratic victory. If he has to, he will nullify the next election. And don't think he won't, and don't think he can't. He'll use the Patriot Act, and he'll ascend to a dictatorship. You, me, or anyone can write the script. It's as plain as day.

[study war no more]

23. not if, but when

This is my main concern. I am convinced he will be acquitted because, well, the inmates are running the asylum. And as the saying went during the Bush /Gore mess, it's not if your vote counts, it's how your vote is counted.

[warmfeet]

26. When he is acquitted,

he and his criminal cohorts will do anything to retain power, they will pull out all the stops. He will know that absolutely nothing can constrain his criminal behavior and that he has nothing to lose. Very soon, we will have the first American dictator. Under those circumstances I am not at all optimistic that we can defeat him in the next election - if there is a next election. I hope that I am completely wrong and that I will have to take back every word I just wrote.

[scarytomcat]

29. We need to catch and stop the hacks that are coming

People need to be caught

[tiredtoo]

31. Have no doubt he will be acquitted in this farce of a trial

Despite all the evidence pointing to guilt. Our only relief from this facsist's control is to soundly defeat him and his cronies in November. We All must join together to assure this happens!

[paleotn]

32. The problem with rigging elections in the US

unlike Russia, or other possible analogs, is the utter mess of our election systems, equipment and processes. We're all over the place, disjointed and decentralized. Every state has different processes, systems, equipment and rules. Even within states there are huge differences between counties or regions. It's a hacker's nightmare. The operation necessary to truly hack a national election in this country, or even in just a few key states, would need to be so large and involve so many people that it would be impossible to avoid detection. A single state, with a corrupt Sec State like Ohio in 2004 or Georgia in 2018, yes. Multiple states, many with Democratic Governors, with Dems on state election boards, etc., such as NC? Not so much. And why would you, when you can just propagandize your way to victory on Facebook? Easier and a hell of a lot cheaper to get the nuts and old farts fired up and out to vote. The key, as always, will be turn out. And if 2018 is an example, the turn out will be the largest we've seen in modern history. It's going to be one hell of a nasty fight to the finish, but we will win. Remember who typed that on the 1st Wednesday or November.

[Kablooie]

35. They only have to rig a few swing state elections in order to win the Electoral college.

It will be very difficult to defend against because any exposure of the rigging will be dismissed by Trump, and Barr prevent any legal investigations from being effective before the election.

It is going to be scary because all the cards will be stacked, behind the scenes, against the Democratic candidate.

[paleotn]

36. Still extremely hard to do.

Rigging one state would take numerous people involved. A state run top to bottom with Rethugs? Yes...Georgia 2018. Rigging several, some of which now have Dem Governors...NC, MI, WI? Nope. They can try it, but be sure, their sins will find them out.

[essaynnc]

77. I call bs on whether elections can be "swayed"

Investigate the Red Shift in the 2016 elections that trump literally won key states with less than a hundred thousand votes. Elections can't be hacked??? Head out of the sand please!! What to do? I have no idea, but democracy is on the ropes. If only we had a way to verify elections.......

[yellowdogintexas]

80. I think MI WI and PA happened because of

the 25 years of hatred of Hillary, which caused people to choose Green or Libertatian or skip the top line altogether ( I have met quite a few here who did that - women, all of them!) , coupled with some voter roll purging in various key areas.

Those margins were so tight then when you look at the votes those third parties got it is just too obvious. I firmly believe the #1 reason was the propaganda against Hillary + the lack of visits she made to those states when #45 was going there constantly, throwing out the red meat and promises and immediately pulling back on them after he was inaugurated.

Voter purging, messing with things like machine availability, moving traditional precinct spots around, ID laws all contribute. In a tight election, it doesn't take much of each of these things to cause a huge problem.

[Tumbulu]

33. We will continue to lose unless something is done about the hate media- Rush Limbaugh and his ilk

is utterly responsible for this amount of devotion to Trump and cruel politics. Their goal for over 35 years has been to alienate the electorate. Imply that ALL politicians are corrupt, but that the Democrats were corrupt and evil. And that the only solution is to eradicate Democrats and "Libtards".

In rural America, those of us on the left have suffered decades of harassment and ridicule and the sort of hazing and bullying that the entire nation now suffers.

The major mistake of the brief moment in time that we had Democratic control of all houses of government was not recognizing the power of this very cheap media. And doing something about it. But ignoring hate only perpetuates and actually amplifies it. So they pushed the racists anti Obama rhetoric, which was taken over by the far left as well. Bloomberg and other billionaires need to get rid of these characters from the public airwaves. Maybe they can do this for us.

Until this sort of rhetoric is not given the spotlight, there will be no hope.

We are finished as a nation, as we can see in this trial. The Republican hearts and minds are all compacted and unable to be reasoned with on any level.

[rockfordfile]

67. What are you talking about? The republicans have always been corrupt like this.

[Tumbulu]

91. They may have always been corrupt but they did not have zealots for followers

who have been conditioned to HATE "libtards" and "Feminazi's", etc etc. My suggestion for you is to listen to AM radio for an hour every day to get an idea of the propaganda.

[calguy]

78. 100% Agree

I've seen and experienced it first hand. I met my longest and one of my best friends while we served in the military together 50 years ago. We were both ultra liberal at that time and all thru the 70's. Then something changed. When Reagan eliminated the Fairness Doctrine right wingers were suddenly free to slander their political rivals on the airways with no fear of any reprisal. The richest of the rich, now flush with extra cash from Reagan's massive tax cuts, they began to build an elaborate propaganda system called talk radio of which Rush Limbaugh was one of the first.
My ultra liberal friend, a carpenter by trade, began to be fed a daily dose of right wing lies everyday over the radio blasting away at the jobsite. Over the course of several years and thousands of hours of exposure to the right wing lies, his thinking gradually changed and he doesn't even know it. Today he is as hard core GOP as they come. Fox news on 24/7 in the house and Limbaugh/Hannity crap in the car.
Yet, he'll tell you with total honesty that he's still a liberal. He believes that he is, but just can't support this or that specific issue so he's being voting straight GOP since the mid 80's and all the while he'll tell you that deep in his heart he's a liberal.
This is the problem we face and I'm not sure, over the long run, we have the resources to overcome the odds.
I sure hope I'm wrong.

[Tumbulu]

90. I hope that I am wrong too, but I doubt it

and see the poster above you? No idea about it. It is only those of us who live in rural areas, or know people who work in the trades that have seen this happen.

[Kablooie]

34. Exactly what I fear.

He will attempt to absolutely destroy Democracy because that's the thing that threatens him.
And if he is elected for another term he will use that time to dismantle the Constitution itself, I'm sure and remain president for life.

[warmfeet]

38. Correct.

And who will be able to stop him? No one, that's who. I believe we have identified a fatal flaw in our form of government. Contrary to what many Reich-wingers assert, our constitution is not a perfect document which should never be modified. The framers themselves asserted that it needed to be updated periodically to accommodate changing times and realities.

[sarisataka]

40. What, exactly,

Is this fatal flaw?

[Bayard]

49. Like Joe Biden says,

We are in a fight for the soul of this nation.

tRump cannot be allowed to continue. Enemies, domestic and foreign, must be subdued, or we are lost.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

50. I'm not sure it'll be Nazi Germany, but it won't be great

Republicans/Conservatives believe deeply in appearances and branding, so we will continue to have at least the appearance of elections. But America will become much more authoritarian - like Brazil or Argentina. I think the endgame for years for the Republicans as to establish themselves as a permanent majority along the lines of what the PRI was in Mexico for years.

The other end game is to take the SCOTUS to the Status Quo Ante the Warren Court. Not just rolling back abortion rights - but rolling back segregation protection, voting rights, the right to an attorney, and a variety of protections from the police.

Work like Hell in this election - not just at the Presidential level, but at the local level as well. If this goes sideways, though, consider the following:

- Consider purchasing a firearm and learning how to use it. Statistically, gun ownership is a bad idea, but if it becomes open season on progressives and/or minorities, then that calculus changes.

- To the degree possible, get your finances in order.

- Obtain a passport.

- Inventory your assets and skill sets. Can you make a living outside the US if you had to? Are there skills you can obtain.

- When a building is invaded by a shooter, the watchwords are "Hide, Flee, Fight." The same will be true in an authoritarian government situation that could very well devolve into Civil War. Are you going to stay and actively resist? Try to blend in and outlive this? Head out of the US?

- If you are considering leaving, look before you leap. How much income or cash on hand will be required? Is the government where you are headed appreciably better than what you are leaving? What about your immediate and extended family?

- If you are staying, consider what you may be called upon to endure or sacrifice.

[bdamomma]

58. +100000

Your points are something to be considered. We really do not know what is going to happen, but we have to be prepared.

[peggysue2]

56. Your parallel to the rise of Nazism matches a tweet I read several months ago

The tweet--presumably from a German citizen--said basically the same thing, that Americans were getting a taste of what happens when 30% of the population goes utterly mad and the remaining population is forced to sit in horror.

Because history has a strange habit of repeating itself. Or at least rhyming.

[Farmer-Rick]

76. I'm not so sure the majority of Germans despised Hitler.

The majority of Americans despise Dumpy Trumpy. Dumpy actually lost the vote.

The majority of Germans did not hate Hitler. Most Germans liked Hitler. Some thought his methods were wrong or ill conceived, but even Jewish people voted for him and were not all that concerned about his election.

Hitler was pretty well loved by most Germans.

Dumpy is hated. He breeds hatred. He doesn't really care if you hate him as long as you fear him. This is a dangerous path to power when you are not massacring most of those who hate you.

[napi21]

57. I know I'm an eternal optimist, but I believe the burring of the Mueller report, the collective Pub

not guilty verdict, added to the anger over child mistreatment of immigrants at the boarder, & MANY other DT crimes has angered most Dems & Indi's so much, they WILL VOTE in unprecedented numbers to unseat this Dictator wannabe.

Of course we all need to prod every Dem we meet to GET OUT AND VOTE! That would be the bet & most satisfying result.

AND it would really pi** off DT to be crushed like that!

[Kurt V.]

59. this has been the question since barr became AG. plus there are trump appointments

all throughout government now. However his disapproval rate my be the saving grace.

[Jarqui]

60. A big problem if he's acquitted is he can solicit

China, Russia, North Korea, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc to help him win in 2020
They can throw money, trolls, hack, etc
And they can smear Biden or whoever is leading the Dems.

It's basically "legal" because the constitution / system failed to stop him via impeachment.

He can do whatever he wants to get re-elected while the media sleeps through his impeachment not reporting the real stakes.

Trump can order ballot boxes not counted or hack election machines.
What's Bill Barr going to do about it? Charge/investigate those making the complaint.

The constitutional framework of the country is unraveling. It's been taken over by a corrupt president backed by a corrupt party and a corrupt cabinet.

The stakes are high. If they don't pull it off, they're going to jail.
So they're not going to pull any punches.
This democracy is becoming an authoritarian government right before our eyes.

[Poiuyt]

62. What if we cheated too?

After all, he's cheated before and he's cheating now. It's like in some high level sports where to win, you need to use performance enhancing drugs. Everyone else is doing it, so if you want a chance to win, you need to do it also. So maybe we should solicit help from the Chinese.

I hope no one takes my suggestion seriously.

[Kid Berwyn]

63. Tom Perez should make that a priority for 2020 advertisers.

Seeing how Moscow Mitch still hasn’t spent a dime allocated for election security, we need to.

Make the truth the focus of the DEM campaign, and the Guardians Of Putin won’t be able to cheat.

[7wo7rees]

65. Extremely cogent insight.

Thank you for posting this. We will see an end to this someday.

[live love laugh]

66. WHEN not if. nt

[rockfordfile]

68. At this point most Americans know he's corrupt, and un-American.

Majority of Americans want him out of office.

[Skittles]

70. Americans take democracy for granted

too many have no idea what shaky ground we are on right now

[RANDYWILDMAN]

74. Rigged, 2000, 2004,2016

We have lost 3 rigged elections.
This would be the worst Bush did some terrible stuff but he never rubbed in everybody's face.

[elias7]

75. I'm right with you...

Schiff alluded to the damage to be done to the very heart of our founding fathers’ intent. It is the madness that is winning out, that which has infected congress to the extent that it cannot see the larger picture, the repeat of history, the death of our constitution...

[Eyeball_Kid]

79. We are in the last days of the democratic republic.

Fascism will choke the life out of the Constitution.

And the Senate Acquittal will usher into our lives the Trump Dictatorship. Guaranteed.

And the Senate Trumpers will open the gates to anarchy, fascism, and autocratic rule. They know it. They are terrified of opposing Trump. They will acquiesce.

[sarisataka]

86. We will have anarchy along with

fascism and autocratic rule?

I don't think you understand the words you are using. Or redundancy.

[ananda]

82. I don't see much hope for us as a species ...

.. due to the rampant nature of climate change that
has not been addressed rationally by us as a species.