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cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
Sun Sep 9, 2012, 07:17 PM Sep 2012

Reading the tea-leaves on the Home Mortgage Interest Deduction.

A few weeks ago Romney was saying that his huge tax cuts for the rich would be paid for by closing tax loopholes for top-earners.

He mused, without specifying, that perhaps the Home Mortgage Interest Deduction (HMID) would be eliminated for second houses or for property value in excess of $3 million...

Needless to say, there is not nearly enough revenue in such proposals to pay for the Romney tax cuts. (I think it is safe to guess that the very rich spend a lower percentage of their money on housing than any group.)

But that was what he was saying.

Fast forward to today. Stephanopolus asks Ryan to specify what deductions he will eliminate to come up with $5 trillion. Ryan refuses to answer directly, of course, but he tap-dances about how the burden of the deduction cutting will fall on the well-to-do.

Okay, I'm thinking, same old Romney line about how giving a millionaire a dollar and charging him a nickel is somehow revenue neutral.

But Ryan, flustered, went on to explain that the burden would fall to the well-to-do because they are likelier to use some of these deductions.

See the difference?

Not formal means testing, but rather means testing in effect because if you eliminate a deduction entirely it will have the effect of increasing taxes more for a rich person, because a rich person takes bigger deductions.

Translated into English: If we eliminate the HMID it is really a tax on rich people because they are liklier to own a house and tend to have bigger houses, so it will cost an individual rich person more than an individual middle-class person.

Translated into really simple English:

[font size=3]We will eliminate the HMID entirely[/font size]

...and funnel the increased revenue to people who make their money primarily from capital gains and dividend income.


So what would the effect of this be? Well, for starters it would reduce the value of every piece of residential real estate in America by 10%, 20%...I don't know the figure, but it would dramatically reduce the investment value, and market price, of every American home. (And giving the homeowner a corresponding income tax cut doesn't change that because everyone gets the income tax cut but the HMID is tied to the property.

Say you deduct $1,000 of mortgage interest every month. So you save $12,000 * your tax rate. Call that 20% when all is said and done, so you save $2400 in taxes. Now let's say that we eliminate the HMID and cut your income tax rate so that it totals $2,400 less per year. So you broke even... eliminating the HMID didn't cost you any cash money.

But the HMID was intrinsic to the value of your house. It was a $2,400/year bonus that anyone could receive in exchange for buying your house. So a person deciding whether to rent or to buy your house now has to subtract $72,000, amortized over 30 years, from the value of the house to her. ($72,000 is $2400/year over a 30 year mortgage. Because of inflation and such the subtraction in sale price today would be smaller than $72,000 in 2012 dollars, but it would be large. Anyway, you get the point I am making.)

The federal subsidization of property values is probably unfair. I don't love it. However, there is a reason that to be talking about eliminating the HMID today is INSANE...

The whole reason this downturn will last a decade is because it was caused by a bubble burst in residential real-estate, and residential real-estate is, in specific, the sector of the economy that always leads the way out of a normal recession. We lack the usual interest-rate sensitive labor intensive driver of recovery. Super low mortgage rates should be creating many jobs in home construction but we are coming off a housing over-build and home prices are still flat-to-declining and people do not want the risk of a house. (And these low mortgage rates are, at 3-4%, actually too high. Because of the zero boundary mortgage rates are not free to find their true price because no bank will lend for 30 years at 1%, collateralized by a property that might collapse in value down the road.)

So the effect of lowering all residential real-estate values further, at this point in time, would be something quite comparable to the Great Depression.

The two most popular things in America are 1) Medicare, and 2) the Home Mortgage Tax Deduction. And these people expect to waltz into office while scheming to destroy both of them!

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spedtr90

(719 posts)
1. Votes speak the truth, and this is Ryan's vote
Sun Sep 9, 2012, 07:26 PM
Sep 2012

HOUSE of REPRESENTATIVES AUGUST 2, 2012

Home-Mortgage Deduction: Members defeated, 188-235, a Democratic motion stating that any Tax Code overhaul should retain deductions for home mortgages and charitable contributions. The underlying bill (HR 6169) did not identify tax breaks Republicans would like to see repealed. A yes vote backed the motion.

Ryan voted no.

Ayes: 188 (Democrat: 185; Republican: 3)

Nays: 235 (Democrat: 2; Republican: 233)

Abstained: 7 (Democrat: 4; Republican: 3)

winstars

(4,220 posts)
2. I agree because to pay for their tax cuts they need A LOT OF MONEY. The HMID would get them there
Sun Sep 9, 2012, 07:30 PM
Sep 2012

Didn't Rmoney get overheard saying he might get rid of it for second homes... I took that as a trial balloon to get rid of it entirely.

But its OK because we are gonna win anyway!!! I have to believe that Mittens and Lyin' Ryan cannot, even with the billionaires on there side, win this thing. Maybe I am naive...

Kolesar

(31,182 posts)
3. Taxpayers don't realize that the mortgage deduction is barely worth more than the standard deduction
Sun Sep 9, 2012, 07:39 PM
Sep 2012

I am referring to the mortgage deduction plus the other deductions like state and local taxes.

Further, when you have paid down your mortgage, the mortgage deduction is worthless, and one would be better off taking the standard deduction.

At this time when interest rates are low, one would have to have a huge mortgage to make it worthwhile The bankers and the real estate industry have succeeded in their PR agenda to make homeowners think that the mortgage deduction is essential to get them into the home they want. Get rid of it.

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
4. The HMID is in addition to the standard deduction
Sun Sep 9, 2012, 07:52 PM
Sep 2012

It is immensely valuable.

The standard deduction versus schedule A is an either or proposition for most itemized deductions (medical, charitable giving, etc.), but you always get the HMID whether you itemize other deductions or not.

And low interest rates don't change anything.

If you bought a house last year and your mortgage payment is $1,000 then more than $900 of that is deductible interest.

And that applies whether the interest rate on your mortgage is 3% or 10%. For most of the term of the mortgage the great majority of every mortgage payment is deductible.

The effect of low interest rates is the size of the payments relative to the property, and I cannot see that everyone today has such a low mortgage that they woudn't benefit from deducting 90% of it.

And after you have paid off your mortgage it remains valuable to you because it is built into the value of your house.

(I added some stuff to the end of the OP that might not have been there when you posted. The effect on property valuation is a big deal, nationally.)

 

SheilaT

(23,156 posts)
5. The HMID is not in addition to the standard deduction.
Sun Sep 9, 2012, 09:28 PM
Sep 2012

You get to use it if you're itemizing.

My tax guy told me when I bought my house three years ago that I'd get about five years of itemizing from it.

Plus, the amount of interest you pay each and every single payment goes down.

One genuine problem with the HMID is that it encouraged a lot of people to take on a much larger mortgage than they'd otherwise have even considered, and helped raise housing prices over the years. Personally, when I was looking to buy I knew I wanted a mortgage that would result in a payment no greater than the rent I'd been paying. And that wasn't hard to do.

SickOfTheOnePct

(7,290 posts)
6. It depends on the size of the mortgage
Sun Sep 9, 2012, 09:51 PM
Sep 2012

The ability to deduct mortgage interest, even if it is at or a bit below standard deduction, enables taxpayers to deduct other things that they wouldn't be able to otherwise, such as property tax, state and local income tax and charitable donations. Any one of those items alone might not make it to the standard deduction threshold, but eliminating the HMID pushes them over and makes itemizing worthwhile.

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