Okay, so . . . forget the Chicago teachers for a moment. Would you support PATCO?

[Stinky The Clown]

[Sherman A1]

1. Absolutely

I did support PATCO.

[eqfan592]

2. It doesn't exist anymore, but yes.

NATCA is the new controllers union.

[GEOpix]

3. Ask yourself this question...

Why did Ronald Reagan bust the Professional Air Traffic Controllers Union, but embrace the Polish Solidarity labor union???

[Stinky The Clown]

5. Ask yoursef this question...

Who did Lech Walesa endorse in this US election cycle?

[GEOpix]

9. Mitt Romney, but...

...the Solidarity labor union came out solidly against Mitt Romney. Walesa became a paid off conservative after he left the union and went into politics; whereas, the workers still have only their labor to bargain for, and they see Romney for the exploiter of labor that he is.

[HiPointDem]

39. walesa didn't become a conservative *after* -- word is, he always was in league with the

catholic church & other conservative forces, including the reagan admin.

[GEOpix]

47. Good point

and entirely correct.

[abumbyanyothername]

8. Hope you enjoy your stay.

But to answer your question . . . because he is a bumbling asshole?

[GEOpix]

12. Ask yourself this question...I'll answer it for you.

Reagan used the Solidarity labor union as pawns in the Cold War to face off against the Jaruzelski communist regime in order to play brinksmanship with the Soviet Union.

[neverforget]

4. YES! I was 10 years old and I remember my dad, a member of the UTU, talking about how all

Reagan was trying to do was bust the unions. It was true then and it's true now.

[TexasProgresive]

6. You Betcha!

I supported them and was angry and sad at what Raygun did.

[abumbyanyothername]

10. Born and raised in CWA family

And I was either Teamster or IAFF when he fired PATCO.

Worst move ever made by a US Pres until W invaded Iraq.

[no_hypocrisy]

7. Yes, knowing how other unions went to ruin after PATCO was attacked.

[duggie99]

11. MN

I was a member of PATCO and lost my job. I was the first woman air traffic controller at an airport in Cailfornia. I was able to pursue another career as I was young enough. I still support unions!!! By the way 3 years after the strike and losing my job they called me back. I did decline

[FLyellowdog]

14. I remember a PATCO member sitting in my living room with others ...

all the while talking about how the union should remain strong...controllers should go out on strike...yada yada yada. Then after he walked out, and was fired, he sued claiming he was coerced into striking...which was a lie because he was coercing others. Guess, what? He won his job back WITH backpay. Go figure.

I know people who walked out but when the president ordered them back to work, they went and remained good controllers for years to come. They worked 10 hour days 6 days a week to keep the planes flying. Those I know who lost their jobs said later that it was the best decision they'd ever made. Different strokes for different folks. Understand that once a controller leaves the FAA there are very few, if any, jobs in the same or similar field. They all had to look for a different profession, and most seem happy that they did. Just my observation.

[duggie99]

54. PATCO

You are certainly right about no job that equated to being a Controller in the real world. Lucky for me I had other options and because of the extensive training I had equipped me with skills that I did not get in College. For that I'm thankful and my husband tells everyone I was fired by the number one man.(The President)

[FLyellowdog]

55. I'm glad things worked out well for you.

Welcome to DU.

[hay rick]

15. Welcome to DU.

A union booster- double welcome!

[Autumn]

13. Yes I did. n/t

[Lifelong Protester]

16. I would and I did.

I have worked for the FAA.

[Ikonoklast]

17. I did. I used to play cards regularly with a ATC.

Worked Oberlin Center, lost his job.

Ed said it was the best thing that ever happened to him; he was tired of being treated like shit.

[boppers]

18. Nope.

I also would not support our Congressmen going on strike.

Nor would I support our military going on strike.

I'm with FDR on this one.
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=15445

'Particularly, I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place in the functions of any organization of Government employees. Upon employees in the Federal service rests the obligation to serve the whole people, whose interests and welfare require orderliness and continuity in the conduct of Government activities. This obligation is paramount. Since their own services have to do with the functioning of the Government, a strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent on their part to prevent or obstruct the operations of Government until their demands are satisfied. Such action, looking toward the paralysis of Government by those who have sworn to support it, is unthinkable and intolerable. It is, therefore, with a feeling of gratification that I have noted in the constitution of the National Federation of Federal Employees the provision that "under no circumstances shall this Federation engage in or support strikes against the United 'States Government."'

[badtoworse]

22. +1

[emilyg]

23. +2

[eqfan592]

26. FDR was wrong on this issue.

As are you. You would deny the employees of the US government the same rights as those of public sector employees, with such shockingly and staggeringly poor justification that it literally boggles the mind (as it should have when FDR said it).

Sorry, but shame on you.

[Starry Messenger]

28. +1

[boppers]

35. The employees in the public sector are not working for a for-profit company.

You know how it's kind of insane to try to run the government like a business? Same principle applies.

It's not like some greedy capitalist owner is raking in all the profits, and not sharing with the workers, or is giving fat dividend checks out to investors while workers starve.

[eqfan592]

36. It makes literally no difference whatsoever.

Public sector employees can have their rights trampled and working conditions reduced to abhorrent levels just as easily by a government bureaucracy as they can by a public sector business. Given that, public sector employees deserve the exact same protection and support as private sector employees.

Sorry, but your entire line of reasoning is a major fail.

[boppers]

38. Are you arguing for less protections, then?

"public sector employees deserve the exact same protection and support as private sector employees"

Which in most places, is none.

[backscatter712]

41. I'd say public sector workers deserve the exact same rights to strike as private workers.

The only exemption is when public safety is at risk.

With PATCO, flights got delayed. Too bad.

With the teachers, the kids got to stay home. Inconvenient, but not life-endangering.

Nurse's strikes and other strikes by public safety workers typically account for this sort of thing - with enough of the members of the strikers coming to work, under the endorsement of the striking union, to account for emergencies and situations where lives are at stake.

What you're demanding is that people working for the government forfeit their rights, and forfeit one of the few ways they have for fighting for their rights.

Fuck. That.

[boppers]

48. Planes crashing into each other seems like a public safety issue to me.

It is a hard line to draw, though.

[backscatter712]

51. When most of the ATCs are striking, most of the planes won't be in the air at all.

Which means you'll have a bunch of pissed off passengers stranded at various airports, but no crashes - the FAA won't let planes fly if controllers aren't available to manage the airspace - they'll just sit on the tarmac.

[backscatter712]

44. +2! If public-sector workers can't strike, how do they fight back against exploitation?

[backscatter712]

31. Would you have supported the Flint sit-down strike of 1937?

Oh no, they were breaking the law! Why, they had to face down law enforcement, Pinkertons and the National Guard. They fended off cops by throwing car parts like big bolts at them and directing fire-hoses at them. Wait, that's violence! Better call off the union movement!

They even had a Fight To The Death Committee for when they tried to storm the factory.

But oh no, we can't have that! Why, our objections to our fuckings by the elites need to be civilized. We can't go around violating norms! Why we can't have anyone striking against the government! Somehow, that's different from striking against a corporation, because we all know our government is just and would never exploit its workers. Why, you could write a letter to your Congressman. After taking millions of dollars from big business, I'm sure he's very interested in your opinion.

[eqfan592]

34. WELL SAID! (nt)

[boppers]

37. The Flint workers were government workers? I hadn't realized that.

Maybe because it's not true. There's no comparison.

Would you be in favor of the members of the US Congress going on strike for a pay raise? How about the Generals at the Pentagon? Maybe soldiers/sailors/(etc.) could go on strike for less hazardous working conditions?

[backscatter712]

45. I agree that FDR was wrong on this issue.

The only limitation in the right to strike should be in cases where public safety would be put at risk. That's why police are generally not allowed to strike. In situations like nurse's strikes, the nurses still show up for work, and they're more than happy to treat emergency cases, but they'll stop working when it's time for elective procedures.

[boppers]

49. PATCO wasn't showing up for work, though.

It was a "sick-out" tactic.

Not quite the same as "showing up, but only handling public safety issues".

[backscatter712]

52. But like I said, without air traffic controllers, the planes don't fly, they just sit on the tarmac.

Where's the giant public safety problem?

[Egalitarian Thug]

19. I did. But then I'm an egghead commie elitist, always worried about consequences. n/t

[boppers]

20. PATCO (along with the Teamsters and ALPA) endorsed Reagan, a past union leader, running pro-union.

History can be a very quixotic thing at times.

[cordelia]

21. I did.

And would again.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

24. I did, and it is too bad that our Democratic Congresscritters

didn't.

[MrSlayer]

25. Of course.

United we bargain, divided we beg.

A slogan that never goes out of date.

[Comrade_McKenzie]

27. Yes. nt

[backscatter712]

29. Anyone who's been here at DU for a long enough time can figure out who won't.

They're not hard to suss out.

They're the same ones who refused to support Occupy, who refuse to support Julian Assange.

The same group of assholes who come out, bringing along a gaggle of sockpuppets. It's pretty obvious.

[Robb]

42. Assange is a peacock. Occupy, meh.

And I'm one of the biggest union supporters on DU.

Perhaps your pigeon-holer is out of calibration.

[burrowowl]

30. Hell YES!

It wasn't for wages, it was for SAFETY!


My Father and Sister were Air Traffic controllers!

God Damn Raygun!

[SheilaT]

32. Oh, yes.

I worked at Washington National Airport for ten years starting in 1969. It was horrifying to watch how the Air Traffic Controllers who worked there aged so rapidly.

I will never forgive Lane Kirkland of the AFL-CIO standing with Reagan in the firing of the air traffic controllers. That, more than anything else, was the clear death knell of the unions. What in God's name could he have been thinking?

[Robb]

43. He was thinking he hated black people.

Kind of all there was to it. Not the Teamsters' finest hour.

[CreekDog]

33. yes, I'd support both

in fact, i'm so sick of the attitude that people negotiating the best deal in terms of pay for themselves is wrong when it's a teacher or air traffic controller, but when it's some other profession, at a much higher rate of pay --then it's all good.



part of me hopes that the children of today repay us our unkindness and selfishness when we get old, after all, they are being shortchanged so that the wealthiest among us can pay less in taxes.

[Dannyteague]

40. I supported PATCO'

What that entire deal was, Reagan giving a wink and a nod to corporate America that union Busting was ok in his book

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

46. How about the Postal Workers who went on wildcat strikes in 1970?

I was one of them. And, we won after Nixon caved.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._postal_strike_of_1970

[TheKentuckian]

50. Yup but then I'm pro-labor not a corporate bootlicking asshole of a Turd Wayer

[WinkyDink]

53. Union through and through. NEVER mgmnt over a union!!