So how do people catch the virus when they take all precautions?

[LAS14]

The son-in-law of a friend of mine caught it. He works at home, wears a mask, hand sanitizes, etc. And there's a post today on DU about a woman whose name I didn't recognize who has it, "I wore a mask, carried hand sanitizer." We wipe down all groceries that have to be unpacked within 24 hours, don't go anywhere but the grocery store, etc., etc. If you need both elapsed time and proximity, how do you get it?

Are there theories? Articles? Explanations?

tia
las

[DetroitLegalBeagle]

1. Nobody does everything perfectly

And unless you are wearing a PAPR, no mask, not even N95 or higher rated, will block the virus 100% of the time. Wearing a non rated mask doesn't prevent you from catching it, their primary purpose is to mitigate you spreading it. Plus, some people are just more susceptible to catching it than others it seems.

[TheBlackAdder]

31. N95 denotes only 95% effective. N100, R100 or P100 better. But it also enters eyes and ear canals.

.

Yep. 100% agree with you.

Many people wear homemade cloth masks or 'surgical' masks and they are not effective at all.

Plus, it can land on your clothes, etc. Plus, when shopping, you're also touching stuff that can have the virus on it. In NJ, one county has 30% of field workers testing positive--the ones picking the produce.

.

[Ms. Toad]

33. the cloth masks are between 50 and 90% as effective as an N95 masks.

So, while they are not perfect, suggesting they are "not effective at all" dangerously discourages one layer of protection we should all be using.

[TheBlackAdder]

36. It gives people the false sence of security, and there lies it's flaw.

.

50% means that every two exposures, you might contract it or spread it. That's not effective.

.

[Ms. Toad]

38. So I take it you don't recommend the flu vaccine -

and also call it not effective at all?

The last time it's been more than 50% effective was 2013 (it was 52% effective then). Most years it's closer to 30%.

The point is nothing is 100% effective. People are going to get COVID 19. We need to slow the transmission - and cutting out 50% of the transmission is a whole lot better than cutting out nothing. Layer it with social distancing, handwashing, minimizing unnecessary trips out of the house, working from home when possible, etc., and you get substantially fewer transmissions.

Discouraging people from wearing cloth masks because they are not as effective as N95 masis is irresponsible.

[TheBlackAdder]

40. Conflate much? You know the point I made and are being argumentative.

.

It's not like contracting the flu is the same as the virus with a mask, and you know that!

The flu, it is is 50% effective, that's for the season... not for two trips to Costco!

People need to be aware that the homemade masks are Non-surgical and each trip is a flip of the coin. While it's better than nothing, it can't give people the false sense they are somehow protected by a talisman and can jump from store to store at ease.

.

[Ms. Toad]

41. 50% is 50%

Whether it is for the season, or for two trips to Costco. That's how percentages work.

I'm not being argumentative - I'm asking you to stop discouraging people from wearing cloth masks by telling them they are inneffective.

[TheBlackAdder]

42. Yes, you're right 50% IS 50%.

.

I'm not discouraging them from wearing them, I'm discouraging them from placing themselves at risk, while they think they are protected. But, you know that.

.

[Ms. Toad]

44. Actually, I don't.

What I responded to was not a discouragement to place themselves at risk. It was an assertion that masks are ineffective - the same thing I am encountering daily among friends and relatives who are asserting it as a justification for not wearing a mask.

I do have a problem with suggesting not wearing a mask to avoid a false sense of security - because functionally that is the same as people who are refusing to wear masks because they just don't want to - and we are all less safe because they are 50-90% as effective as N95 masis; not wearing them makes us all less safe.

But if what you are suggesting to wear a mask (even if all you have is a cloth mask) but to make sure to take other steps to stay safe, I agree.

You appeared to be suggesting the former.

[TheBlackAdder]

46. Whatever.

[Drahthaardogs]

47. That's not what it means.

It means it filters out 50% of particles .3 micron or larger. It has NOTHING to do with exposures resulting in disease. PPE is based up PELs. I do this shit for a living and have worked in Level A, B, and C as required by the exposure scenario.

[TheBlackAdder]

48. Yes, and homemade ones don't filter down below a micron, which makes them ineffective on COVID.

.

You're right, it's the filtration, meaning that each wear of homemade masks places the wearer at great risk. I allowed myself to get redirected in thought on the prior post, and I admit it.

Sure, it might capture some of the misting and spittle, but it's not going to prevent a lot from either entering the mouth or leaving the mask in micro-particulate vapors. While homemades do offer some protection, better than none, people should be aware, they are not going to protect them that much on an inhalation.

.

[Drahthaardogs]

51. PPE is really the LAST and WORST way to avoid exposure

They teach you that engineering controls and behavior are better.

I fully expect to catch it at some point. An Ro 5.6 requires > 80% of an affected population to have antibodies. The goal was never to avoid catching it. The goal was to avoid overwhelmed resources.

[TheBlackAdder]

52. 👍

[pnwmom]

56. I researched the ear canal theory yesterday and couldn't find anything to support it. n/t

[Blue_true]

43. One technique that I am using.

During the few times that I have to go shopping, if I see a person with no mask coming toward me, when they get to within 10 feet, I turn my face away from them and toward the floor. My reason is that if they are infected, my N95 mask and safety glasses have a better chance of blocking floating particles that they released earlier than they have of blocking ones where they are emitting high velocity particles directly at my face once up close. I rinse through my hair twice a day during baths and very seldom touch my hair before rinse throughs.

[Squinch]

2. I think the elapsed time and proximity are talking about likelihood

of catching it. The longer you are in the proximity of a sick person, the more likely you are to get it. But it doesn't mean you won't catch it if you are in that person's presence for a short time. It just is less likely.

If you are in the presence of an infected person for a very short time and a germ gets in your eye, or if you touch a recently infected surface and then touch eyes nose or mouth, you get it.

[elleng]

3. Neera Tanden,

Neera Tanden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neera_Tanden

Very good question. Some experts think it's largely/exclusively airborne, and rarely transmitted via surfaces.

[Ms. Toad]

34. She says that she didn't reallly socialize.

I'd like a details. I'm sure my spouse would say the same thing - and she is out of the house, closer than 6' to others, often without a mask at least once a week.

And - by extension - that means I am too.

[Yavin4]

4. Who does he live with?

Who else is in his home? Does he go out for a long period of time?

He may be having an affair.

[stopbush]

5. Unless someone has absolute recall of every single thing they've done in a two-week

period, who’s to say? There could be times where one violates one of the primary cautions without knowing it, simple things like touching one’s face.

And then, there’s all the stuff we don’t know about the virus.

“But I did everything right” means only that you did everything right to the extent that you can know what you did.

[Salviati]

9. And "doing everything right" will only minimize the risk, not eliminate it

There will be some people who do everything right, and still catch it, because there are a lot of people out there and even if the chances are 0.001% for someone doing the right things, given that there are 300 million Americans, that still means it will most likely happen to 3000 people.

[blueinredohio]

18. I have been keeping track of where I go with date and approximate time.

Also who comes to my house and when so if one of us were to get it everyone can be contacted.

[LisaL]

6. Did he go out to stores, on walks, etc?

Homemade masks only offer so much protection.

[BigmanPigman]

7. Nothing can 100% prevent it.

Also, it is new so transmission is still being studied.

[Nay]

8. Someone he is quarantined with is an asymptomatic carrier? nt

[UncleTomsEvilBrother]

10. We should also remember that...

...the masks are for protection of others. If people have masks but are in the presence of people without masks, then in a way, the people without the masks are somewhat "safer".

Masks have levels of protection as a barrier against the virus, but they are even more of a show of consideration for others.

In my morning Winn Dixie visits, almost everybody wears masks. I love for strangers to tell me, "Thank you for wearing your mask." I go maybe twice a week, but it's kinda our "thing" to say to our fellow mask wearers.

[dawg day]

11. Probably many people have an immune response that knocks it off.

But anyone with a bit of immune problem, even someone who recently had a cold and is still weakened, might not be able to ward off even a minor encounter with the virus.

The good thing is probably many do fight it off. It seems like it's very contagious, but unlike the measles, maybe (which was very contagious and most people did get the disease), more people are "primed" for it, maybe because they have had a similar disease before. There are other coronaviruses (some common cold viruses are coronas), so maybe there's a bit of immunity from that.

Who knows, but all we can do is our best, and stay away from Trumpers! Bad luck happens, but we can increase our odds by avoiding the militant anti-maskers. Where DID they get that? Why are they all so angry? We should be the angry ones, as we're trying to protect others.

[jmg257]

12. People at grocery stores pull down their masks, talk

On their phone, rush around and get too close, etc etc

Doesn’t take but some droplets in the air.

[LisaL]

15. Exactly.

Don't go anywhere but the grocery store-well,grocery store is a place where people congregate. When you go a to a grocery store, you are exposed to a lot of people. All it takes is for one of these people to have covid.

[still_one]

27. More than a few times I see people not covering their nose with a mask

[Beartracks]

54. I see that, too! That's as good as NO mask. n/t

[still_one]

55. Exactly

[Shermann]

13. With millions of active cases in the US now, there are going to be outliers like this

It's a mathematical certainty. Nobody's risk is zero.

That doesn't mean it's anything to be overly concerned about. There is a non-zero risk of getting killed by a lot of things.

[42bambi]

14. There is one thing I've noticed that many people while speaking are

constantly pulling their mask up and down with their hands close to the nose, possibly causing a problem of transmission.

[LizBeth]

16. I read where some man says got it eyes. Scientist or medical so in the know. I wear huge sunglasses

always and though not perfect, better than bare.

[Blue_true]

45. He is a Virologist and Epidemologist that is an expert guest on

either CNN or MSNBC, I forget which one. He said he followed precautions perfectly, but left his eyes uncovered on a crowded flight.

[LizBeth]

49. Ah. Thanks. You know what is fun about you?

I vaguely remember then you come along and give me the info. Thanks.

[Blue_true]

53. I can give kluxy info too, so that. I just happened to read that article very carefully.

I know wear safety glasses in public and if an unmasked person comes toward me, I turn my face away from them and toward the floor once they are within 10 feet - the reason is my mask and safety glasses have a better chance of blocking stagnant particles than ones shot at my face at high velocity by a maskless person breathing as they near me. I rinse my hair twice per day and don't have a habit of touching my hair much between (though it takes only one instance if it is loaded with virus).

[Mariana]

17. It's more likely to be transmitted with time and proximity.

That doesn't mean it is impossible for it to be transmitted otherwise, it's just less likely.

[dameatball]

19. I used to work with a couple of those "close talkers." Glad I retired now...:) But as to your

question, I suppose it is mostly a matter of trying to do whatever it takes to up your odds on staying safe. But not much is guaranteed.

[greenjar_01]

20. ...

[qazplm135]

21. because it's not a hazmat suit

it's just a mask. It can't fully protect you. You can't create a sterile zone simply by wiping stuff down.
All it takes is one momentary lapse or bit of bad luck.

[LonePirate]

22. That person likely associated with someone who did not take all necessary precautions.

[Blasphemer]

23. Some people are just more susceptible to it...

There was a study out of China with some suggestion that blood type could be related to relative susceptibility. But, regardless of the reason, two people could do everything the same and one may get it while the other doesn't. It's a highly contagious virus and if you are more vulnerable to catching it, then even doing everything correctly might not be enough. Nothing is 100% guaranteed except maybe total isolation from all human contact.

[napi21]

24. There are still quite a few people you encounter that aren't wearing a mask. Remember, the CDC says

a mask will not prevent YOU from getting the virus, it prevents you from giving it to someone else.

[Ms. Toad]

35. It does both,

altough it is more effective at protecting others.

[TheCowsCameHome]

25. Bad luck.

Evidently in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[uppityperson]

26. Through your eyes, tear duct to nasal passages

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

28. Touching an infected nozzle at a gas station will do it.

The recommendation I saw was to wrap it in paper towels.

Also, if you hand your credit card to someone and they hand it back, or type your PIN into an ATM machine, or rent a DVD from a Red Box kiosk, you risk getting the virus. Using a toilet in a public place and then flushing it manually is a possibility -- our Walmart has both manual and automatic flushing devices, so I walk to the back of the store to go pee.

Anything stocked on a shelf, or delivered by mail, FedEx or UPS is handled multiple times enroute. Door handles to get to your post office box are a possibility.

I guess we're left with one solution:

[Jarqui]

29. N95 masks - if she even has one that good

only catch 95% of particulates.
Just look at all the dead medical staff - most took as much precaution as they reasonably could.

We've been trying to perfect our procedures. But we still find flaws.

Maybe she inhaled a bunch from an asymptomatic jogger who ran by.

Maybe a disgruntled restaurant worker coughed on her take out.

Maybe she overlooked it could get all over her shoes at the grocery store.

There's no guarantee unless you remove yourself 100% from any possibility of infection.

[Voltaire2]

30. Masks are mostly about keeping your

blobs of spit from splattering other people. Any time you go out and get near other people there is a risk. Anytime anyone in your house goes out they will bring that risk back home with them.

The guidelines are to reduce your risk, they don’t eliminate it.

[Meowmee]

32. All it takes is one thing done wrong

Enough virus on a surface, you touch your face etc. someone sneezes near you, it gets into your eyes etc. then or later. You need to wear a face cover or goggles. Change clothes and shower after going out etc. Hcw do. No ppe is 100% foolproof.

I am getting over it, 6 weeks in now. I had a longer incubation, it is variable. It took a while to get to the pneumonia stage. I think I got it from students / faculty or while shopping/ before I started wearing a mask and gloves etc. The other possibility would be delivered food or one visit to a neighbor, only 3 people were there, we were mostly far apart, before the stay at home. None of them have had it as far as we know.

[Roland99]

37. Can enter thru the eyes too. Read that a couple days ago

And have long suspected, myself

[uponit7771]

39. ***NO EYE COVERING***, yes ... sucks, it can get into eyes without n95 mask on other person.

[Crunchy Frog]

50. If there are other people in the household who go out

or have contact with outsiders, or if the person is going out, even if just infrequently for shopping, there is always a risk.

If anyone in my household gets it, I'll let everyone know, as we are not going out at all, and do all of our shopping online or through Instacart.

We also disinfect everything, either by letting it sit for a few days, or actively disinfecting (anything that needs to go in the refrigerator or freezer).