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Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
Sun Jan 8, 2012, 02:52 AM Jan 2012

Is Unemployment Really Improving?

Yes, yes, I know what the official stats are, but here's some of the reality behind them:


That thick green line is the number of employed persons from 25-54. This number usually doesn't move much in recessions. This number isn't being shrunk by retirements. This is a group of people that have to work and want to work, and it appears they can't get jobs.

Core employment (25-54) employment is not recovering, and it isn't because the population is shrinking, because that population hasn't shrunk - it has grown a bit.

What we are seeing is an utter nightmare for people, and many of them are young. They can't have children, buy houses or cars, etc, because they just can't find jobs. Not only is this awful for them, but it implies that recovery going forward will be terribly weak because this segment of the population is economically impaired.

I have been reading articles about how employment is improving, but I don't see it in the real figures. More older people are working, especially past 65, which masks what is happening to persons of core working age.

Digging down into the numbers makes this look pretty dire.

48 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Is Unemployment Really Improving? (Original Post) Yo_Mama Jan 2012 OP
Yes it is... NewEngland4Obama Jan 2012 #1
That's great Yo_Mama Jan 2012 #2
I took an 18 month hiatus Seedersandleechers Jan 2012 #27
"They can't have children, buy houses or cars" boppers Jan 2012 #3
Stay classy. girl gone mad Jan 2012 #4
Yes, this is all about class, actually. boppers Jan 2012 #12
so we should all strive to live like people in the third world because they have it bad? dionysus Jan 2012 #42
WTF?!?! Nt xchrom Jan 2012 #5
yeah, real luxury items; a home, transportation, and a family... dionysus Jan 2012 #41
Own a home, own transport, own a family? boppers Jan 2012 #47
yay for one of the most bizarre responses i've ever seen on DU... dionysus Jan 2012 #48
Having children is way overrated! FarCenter Jan 2012 #46
There have been about 3 million jobs created in the past three years bhikkhu Jan 2012 #6
Not to mention that there was negative job growth when Bush left office Hippo_Tron Jan 2012 #7
Can you link your source for that? joshcryer Jan 2012 #8
Here are the category links Yo_Mama Jan 2012 #21
Here are the participation rates: joshcryer Jan 2012 #9
You don't? Yo_Mama Jan 2012 #26
When I saw hires I felt that the collapse had at least leveled off. joshcryer Jan 2012 #40
I think I found them, it's people returning to college maybe: joshcryer Jan 2012 #10
Those aren't the core group I was referencing in the OP. Yo_Mama Jan 2012 #29
Can you find data for enrollment for 24-54? joshcryer Jan 2012 #43
It always goes down at Christmas time dameocrat67 Jan 2012 #11
Or his extension of Pell Grants worked exactly as hoped. joshcryer Jan 2012 #13
Not true at all... Drunken Irishman Jan 2012 #14
nice graphs bigtree Jan 2012 #15
I got it from Nancy Pelosi's Facebook page. Drunken Irishman Jan 2012 #16
cool bigtree Jan 2012 #19
See also post #9, it's not as bad as it seems. joshcryer Jan 2012 #17
Also, one thing about OP's graph. Male participation rate has steadily fallen thanks to women... joshcryer Jan 2012 #18
No. The president is being correct. bornskeptic Jan 2012 #28
This message was self-deleted by its author HereSince1628 Jan 2012 #20
Those peaks in the green line could be considered unrealistic. DCBob Jan 2012 #22
This message was self-deleted by its author HereSince1628 Jan 2012 #23
I would interpret that graph as showing the increasing number of women in the workforce.. DCBob Jan 2012 #24
This message was self-deleted by its author HereSince1628 Jan 2012 #35
Very true Yo_Mama Jan 2012 #31
I think you are right about the education loans.. DCBob Jan 2012 #33
You bring up a good point... Drunken Irishman Jan 2012 #39
Many wont want to hear this but.. DCBob Jan 2012 #44
More graphs eridani Jan 2012 #25
Yes!!! Yo_Mama Jan 2012 #32
The longest three lines pretty much say all about the failure of "Trickle Down". HughBeaumont Jan 2012 #36
still digesting this,but want to thank everybody for some great research n/t maggiesfarmer Jan 2012 #30
It's improving in some parts of the country, and some segments of the population rox63 Jan 2012 #34
I'm still 100% unemployed after more than 3 years LiberalEsto Jan 2012 #37
Gosh, that's horrible. I'm so sorry Yo_Mama Jan 2012 #38
Not good for my friends and family Vanje Jan 2012 #45

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
2. That's great
Sun Jan 8, 2012, 03:03 AM
Jan 2012

What field are you in?

I do think the general economy is improving, although it's a long slow slog.

boppers

(16,588 posts)
3. "They can't have children, buy houses or cars"
Sun Jan 8, 2012, 03:08 AM
Jan 2012

Yeah, that's horrible, what kind of priorities must they have if they're not able to be breeding consumers wasting money on overpriced crap!

boppers

(16,588 posts)
12. Yes, this is all about class, actually.
Sun Jan 8, 2012, 05:02 AM
Jan 2012

There are US family lines who, for *generations*, have never owned a car or house. It was a dream, at best. Look around the world at the people exploited to create the immense wealth found and controlled from in the US, and you will find people who aspire to buy a bicycle, or, ya know, eat food daily.

bhikkhu

(10,715 posts)
6. There have been about 3 million jobs created in the past three years
Sun Jan 8, 2012, 03:50 AM
Jan 2012

There are all sorts of numbers you can look at and all sorts of ways of looking at the numbers, but very simply - yes, things are getting better. 3 million jobs are 3 million people who are getting paychecks who weren't before, and they do matter. Next month, if things hold to present predictions, another 150k or so more will be employed, and they'll "count" too, and so on.

Hippo_Tron

(25,453 posts)
7. Not to mention that there was negative job growth when Bush left office
Sun Jan 8, 2012, 04:04 AM
Jan 2012

The economy is getting better any way you look at it. But I can certainly understand those who argue that it's not enough.

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
26. You don't?
Sun Jan 8, 2012, 10:07 AM
Jan 2012
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=4fs

You can really look at the graph of full-time workers and NOT see a problem? Still, I find the drop in employment levels in the core more disturbing, but full-time shows why the economy is growing so slowly.

I have always looked at the age-sliced data to predict certain things about the economy, and I think it is highly significant. Employment 55 and over is slowly increasing, which is to be expected due to demographics. A demographically-induced change is slow and continuous over time.


The drop in core employment is discontinuous and caused by the recession. The labor force has grown significantly over ten years, but we haven't even recovered the full-time employment to the level after the 2001 recession, much less this one. This is unique in post-WWII recessions.

It's also strongly linked to the speed of recovery and growth rates after the end of recessions, and these numbers explain why food stamp beneficiaries are so high, why social mobility is so low, and why our economy is stuck in the doldrums.

Changes in employment among the older are masking what's happening among the general population:



We're still not hiring at rates sufficient to really cut into this structural unemployment, because that is what it is:



joshcryer

(62,270 posts)
40. When I saw hires I felt that the collapse had at least leveled off.
Sun Jan 8, 2012, 08:15 PM
Jan 2012

I'm still not seeing the connection as I cannot find stats for enrollment in the higher age groups and I've seen quite a few reports about older people (over 25) going back to college. They're living off Pell Grants and Stafford Loans, which is itself going to cause a bubble, imo.

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
29. Those aren't the core group I was referencing in the OP.
Sun Jan 8, 2012, 10:25 AM
Jan 2012

There's no question that we have people returning to college - and taking out loans to do so - but it's because we have structural unemployment. When we don't have structural unemployment, people who work tend to keep working and study part-time for retraining/increased qualifications.

In any case, that group of people referenced in your link are 16-24 years old, and are excluded from the core employment level (25-54). You do have a lot of people in that core group returning to school (and in many cases, living off loans) because they can't find work at a living wage.

Core levels of employment are a much better predictor of economic growth capacity over the next year than anything else.

I'm not saying that the economy is not improving. Relatively, it is. But after digging through a ton of these series, I don't think we are seeing any real improvement in overall population-adjusted employment - and it worries me. Actually I am shocked.

JOLTS openings provide some hope:


But as yet they have only revived to the previous cycle low, when DOL state data showed employment accounts still dropping. This appears to be very real. Economists keep expecting unemployment rates to rise, because when the job market starts to improve in an area more people always get back into the market - and it appears that hasn't happened yet because the job market is not hugely improving.

Over this next year we may begin to make a dent in it - the rise in JOLTS, if continued, suggests so - but I think policy makers are being misled by not looking at detailed numbers. We have a big problem.

dameocrat67

(475 posts)
11. It always goes down at Christmas time
Sun Jan 8, 2012, 04:53 AM
Jan 2012

and Obama has misinterpreted it as a long term trend for 3 Christmastimes now. Either he is not observant or he is being disingenuous.

joshcryer

(62,270 posts)
13. Or his extension of Pell Grants worked exactly as hoped.
Sun Jan 8, 2012, 05:19 AM
Jan 2012

More people going back to college to get an education that helps them.

If true we need tuition reform which OWS calls for.

 

Drunken Irishman

(34,857 posts)
14. Not true at all...
Sun Jan 8, 2012, 05:30 AM
Jan 2012

In 2009, the unemployment did not go down in December. In fact, it went down a month later - from 10% in Dec. '09 to 9.7% in Jan. '10.

So, no, unemployment doesn't always go down at Christmas time and it would be extremely shortsighted to assume there hasn't been growth since unemployment hit 10% three years ago last month.

Is it rapid? No. Is it good enough to create a true recovery? No. But there is progress and has been progress for a year now. Dec. '10's unemployment rate was 9.4%, yet economic growth wasn't near the level many had hoped for that moth.

Moreover, last December, we only added 103,000 jobs - or about 100,000 less than this time last year. Unemployment also dropped to 8.5%, or nearly an entire percentage point less than last year at this time.

So, no, Pres. Obama is not being disingenuous when he says unemployment is getting better - it is.

All you have to do is look at this graph:



'11 was the best year for jobs creation since '05 and hopefully it's a trend that carries over into 2012.

Are we out of the hole yet? Not by a long shot - but we're better today than we were a year ago and that progress is welcomed...even if still disappointing.

joshcryer

(62,270 posts)
17. See also post #9, it's not as bad as it seems.
Sun Jan 8, 2012, 06:54 AM
Jan 2012

The male workforce falloff is misleading because females are taking up most of them, and it appears that more women are attending college.

I truly believe the OP isn't considering all these people going back to school (not able to get a job, they're looking for greener pastures, which the pell grant expansion has helped them do).

joshcryer

(62,270 posts)
18. Also, one thing about OP's graph. Male participation rate has steadily fallen thanks to women...
Sun Jan 8, 2012, 06:58 AM
Jan 2012

...joining the workforce. Basically it's evening out. More women join the workforce, more males drop out. Many women are still not in the workforce, instead choosing to be housewives. But that appears to be changing (again check post #9 to see the full stats). More men are stay at home dads or househusbands, if you will.

I do not consider this a "bad" thing. Overall participation rate or employment seems to have leveled off and is on the rise. Yes it will take time but I don't see evidence that this is going the wrong way, yet. We need a few more months, if not 6 months of data to make that determination.

And the ballot box in 10 months will give us the answer in any event.

Response to Yo_Mama (Original post)

DCBob

(24,689 posts)
22. Those peaks in the green line could be considered unrealistic.
Sun Jan 8, 2012, 09:23 AM
Jan 2012

The highest points represent the peaks of the dot com and housing bubbles.

Response to DCBob (Reply #22)

DCBob

(24,689 posts)
24. I would interpret that graph as showing the increasing number of women in the workforce..
Sun Jan 8, 2012, 09:47 AM
Jan 2012

since the 60's and the baby boomer effect and the drop off around year 2000 as the beginning of baby boomers retiring.

Response to DCBob (Reply #24)

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
31. Very true
Sun Jan 8, 2012, 10:29 AM
Jan 2012

Moving from one bubble to the next has done nothing for the US economy.

Still, the human beings are there. They want to work. This is a social and humanitarian crisis, and I don't want to ignore it. Looking at these numbers makes me think that our policies have been poorly designed, and I am afraid that over the next year more social assistance will drop out because everyone in DC wants to ignore this.

I think the next bubble is in education loans. I have been wandering around talking to nurses, and it appears that many of the recent graduates can't find good jobs. Those that are working seem to be working in nursing homes, and not getting paid much. Prospocts are better some places with rising pops.

It's so hard to be young these days. Hard to be old, too, but I don't think the US ever has seen sustained economic conditions like this post WWII.

DCBob

(24,689 posts)
33. I think you are right about the education loans..
Sun Jan 8, 2012, 10:45 AM
Jan 2012

That is huge problem and getting worse by the moment. I suspect though if it starts to get ugly there will be some relief provided such as deferments or options to payoff.

 

Drunken Irishman

(34,857 posts)
39. You bring up a good point...
Sun Jan 8, 2012, 07:12 PM
Jan 2012

Much of the economic growth in the 90s was artificial. It was never sustainable and it's not a coincidence we started into a recession around the time the dot-com bubble popped.

So, yes, growth seen in the 90s is unrealistic as a sustainable entity because it's built on the boom & bust cycle. It's kind of like doing drugs. The high is great, but sooner or later, you're going to come crashing down.

The 90s was all about being on the cusp of a new era of technology. The internet was in its infancy and really changed the dynamics of the way we bought things, played things, communicated, researched, discovered and worked. Rarely does something so impactful come along and when it does, it certainly boosts the economy in ways that can't be matched until we move on to the next major innovation.

The 90s were great - but they also weren't sustainable. We had already entered a recession before Clinton left office and it was going to sag the economy downward anyway. It wouldn't have been nearly as bad as it was in the 00s had we taken appropriate steps - but we certainly would have seen a strong downward economic trend when the bubble went pop.

DCBob

(24,689 posts)
44. Many wont want to hear this but..
Sun Jan 8, 2012, 10:15 PM
Jan 2012

it appears our economy/standard of living is settling in at a new norm below what many are accustomed to and or expect. Much of our wealth during the past decade or so was based on unrealistic and unsustainable tech and real estate bubbles. We might be able to get back to where we were but it would take another "bubble-like" situation perhaps green tech related or a new energy source development that would give us a major economic boost. Without something like that I think we may have to get used to living on less... imo.

eridani

(51,907 posts)
25. More graphs
Sun Jan 8, 2012, 10:06 AM
Jan 2012

Average duration of unemployment since 1940--almost never over 20 weeks until now


Percent job losses in post WWII recessions--the last three recoveries have been jobless. The most recent one is an ongoing disaster of huge proportions

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
32. Yes!!!
Sun Jan 8, 2012, 10:36 AM
Jan 2012

We can't ignore this reality and hope to really make things better. We must confront this - as a party and as a nation.

We cannot afford to leave so many in the dust economically and we must not for moral/ethical reasons.

The economy is improving. But it is improving in a way that is creating ever more losers.

HughBeaumont

(24,461 posts)
36. The longest three lines pretty much say all about the failure of "Trickle Down".
Sun Jan 8, 2012, 11:10 AM
Jan 2012

In quotes since the "Down" part never really happens.

rox63

(9,464 posts)
34. It's improving in some parts of the country, and some segments of the population
Sun Jan 8, 2012, 10:45 AM
Jan 2012

Unemployment isn't as bad in my area as in others. Also, quite a few people have gone back to school or retired, which is part of the lower workforce participation. Older baby boomers that can afford to retire are starting to retire, especially if they've had a hard time finding a new job. I went back to school for a couple of years myself, and I'm back in the workforce after that. So the answer really is Yes and No.

 

LiberalEsto

(22,845 posts)
37. I'm still 100% unemployed after more than 3 years
Sun Jan 8, 2012, 06:00 PM
Jan 2012

My younger daughter is unemployed
My son-in-law is unemployed.
Both my neighbors are unemployed.

This is in the Maryland suburbs of Washington DC, where there is supposedly less unemployment than in many other parts of the U.S.

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
38. Gosh, that's horrible. I'm so sorry
Sun Jan 8, 2012, 06:11 PM
Jan 2012

Every family's nightmare - and it's closer than we want to know.

You're right - that area does have less unemployment, but your tale is cautionary.
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/metro.t02.htm

I read all this moralistic prattle about unemployment benefits causing unemployment, and about skills-mismatches (not here at DU, in economic papers), and I wonder at just how blind people must be to write the stuff, and at how many people accept it when reading it.

This huge number of people who were working and now are not did not just suddenly become unskilled slackers.

Vanje

(9,766 posts)
45. Not good for my friends and family
Sun Jan 8, 2012, 10:35 PM
Jan 2012

My brother has been in and out of joblessness for 4 or 5 years. He lost his recent part time job just before Christmas. He doesn't know how he'll stay in his house.
He's arranged placement for his constant sidekick, a 14 year old labrador, if he can't make rent.
He called me to tell me about it on Christmas Eve. He was crying.

A friend who has been really struggling financially, lost her job this week.
Fortunately for her, she re-homed her dog and 2 horses the last time she lost a job, some months ago, when she had to move out because the power company turned her electricity off. That was during fair weather.
When the turn the heat off in your single-wide in January in Idaho, its dangerous to life, and will sure as hell wreck your plumbing.


Its awful.

For me, "The Bad Economy" is NOT a line on a graph.
Its people barely hanging on, for dear life, with no imaginable end to their poverty.

The economy is not a graph.

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