General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe Electoral College
We are called upon to multitask like crazy this year. We don't dare to neglect anything that even might hint at getting rid of Donald Trump.
First, we have to turn out and vote. Every. last. one. of. us. If we don't make a massive effort, we will not see the picture that we need to clarify what is happening to us.
But, it's not enough. Even though we might prevail to the tune of millions and millions of popular votes, the only thing that matters is the Electoral College. Those selected members of the EC are who really elect our next President. So, while all this maelstrom of events, verbiage, violence, and general nastiness is happening to us, the only thing that matters is this Electoral College, and what they are going to do.
Some states made laws that will now prevent the Electors from changing how they vote from the will of the people to their own beliefs. There are penalties that they can suffer. Sure. But, I have heard that the States, might consider replacing all the Electors with people that will vote for Trump. So, even though we might have literally millions and millions of votes over and above for Joe Biden, the EC can still deliver the election to Trump. Those EC votes are crucial.
A lot depends on their will for bravery and duty. I remember praying that some of them would deliver us from Trump, but they didn't. There were only one or two "faithless" Electors. The rest fell in line, and there is not a deep argument that they should not have voted how their population wanted them to, only that they held the election in their hands.
I do not think that Trump will leave, certainly not in a straight forward "I lost" kind of way. He's gonna do a scam. We have to be ready with Plan B.
This could get ugly. Don't be distracted by all this sh*t happening. Plan A is to vote with all your heart and soul. Plan B is going to end up being marching in the streets. Get ready.
If we wake up the day after with Biden as President, it will all be a big joke. But, so far what we've seen is not. This is not normal. Donald Trump is a dictator who is not going to give up unless we make him.
That's why it's awfully useful to have the General making the statement to Trump that they are NOT going to help him. It's a statement to us, as well. Why would a military chief feel it necessary to inform the public that the military will not participate? We can't be the only ones worried about this?
Karadeniz
(22,516 posts)Of the states...down with the electoral college.
roamer65
(36,745 posts)The smaller population states have too good of a gravy train going to voluntarily give it up.
The only way out for the larger population states like NY and CA is secession. Sorry, but thats reality.
Maraya1969
(22,480 posts)roamer65
(36,745 posts)It would take a constitutional amendment to change it.
2/3 vote of the House, 2/3 of the Senate and ratification by 38 state legislatures.
melm00se
(4,992 posts)is embedded in Article II, Section 1.
Each state shall appoint, in such manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a number of electors, equal to the whole number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or person holding an office of trust or profit under the United States, shall be appointed an elector.
This was further refined in Amendment XII
To alter either of these, the process spelled out in Article V:
What you are thinking of is how amendments can be proposed. As indicated in Article V, Congress can propose an amendment but that requires 2/3 of both the House and Senate.
Or, and this is playing with fire, a Constitutional Convention can be called if 2/3 of the states agree. This one is the scariest one (even a 2nd term for the cheetoh one) as whether the convention could be limited to consideration of the amendment or the subject matter which it is called to consider. If the answer is no then the Convention could wipe the slate clean. Putting the original Constitution together was a real challenge. In today's world? good luck with that.
roamer65
(36,745 posts)That means the state legislatures can ignore their popular vote or not even hold a popular election for President in their state and get away with it, just like Colorado did in 1876.
How many state legislatures are under Repuke control? Espeically in the swing states like Wisconsin, Ohio, Michigan, North Carolina, Florida, etc, etc.
SheltieLover
(57,073 posts)I would, until they ratify end of EC.
Joe likely wouldn't, but I sure as hell absolutely would.
Time to play hardball
roamer65
(36,745 posts)They have disproportionate representation in it. They will kill it. Only time the Senate ever came close to getting rid of the EC was 1934. They missed by 2 votes.
SheltieLover
(57,073 posts)I know senate is a huge problem.
roamer65
(36,745 posts)We should have had a 52 star flag years ago. Probably even 53 with statehood of Guam+NMI.
SheltieLover
(57,073 posts)Ridiculous!
roamer65
(36,745 posts)Reason was the large Democratic majority after the 1932 election.
SheltieLover
(57,073 posts)I will read up on it. I hope we have enormous blue results this time.
roamer65
(36,745 posts)BigmanPigman
(51,591 posts)"FIGHTING TO PROTECT THE RESULTS OF THE 2020 ELECTION
We are building a coalition of voters ready to mobilize if Donald Trump refuses to accept the results of the 2020 presidential election."
GET ALERTS
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/hillary-clinton-says-biden-should-not-concede-2020-election-under-n1238156
"Hillary Clinton says Biden should not concede the election 'under any circumstances'"
"The former Democratic presidential nominee predicted Republicans could try to mess up absentee balloting for a narrow advantage in the Electoral College."
SheltieLover
(57,073 posts)questionseverything
(9,654 posts)lastlib
(23,226 posts)They are going to need every resource at their disposal in the next 140 days! Money for GOTV ops; poll-watchers; election lawyers; voter outreach--everything a powerful campaign organization needs to be effective. I don't want to pin our hopes on the Biden campaign alone; that may not be enough. Can we all dig a little deeper to help our friends and allies in Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Florida, Michigan, Ohio, and yes, Texas and Arizona?
Maraya1969
(22,480 posts)Is he making good on this?
SheltieLover
(57,073 posts)Anyone else?
BigmanPigman
(51,591 posts)There is a lot that he already donated to, more than I was aware of..."Bloomberg has already spent well over $350 million for Democrats this cycle, according to his team, including the following investments..."
"Altogether, it makes Bloomberg the single biggest donor to the Democrats this year, and it's having an impact on the ground, according to party strategists in battleground states."
*but then there is this from the end of the article...
"Although there's no evidence yet that he is spending all that he promised, that doesn't mean Bloomberg can't or won't in the remaining days of the campaign, now fewer than 100."
"Bloomberg has a history of coming in late and spending big. In 2018, he was the single biggest Democratic investor in House races, and the donations he made in September helped flip 21 red districts blue, out of 24 he invested in."
"The remaining investments are "still being determined and decided and figured out" according to Nutter: "I mean, this is politics. You don't just kind of throw the money out the window and hope it lands in the right places. Mike makes strategic investments to change outcomes using data and evidence."
"In the next month or so, Bloomberg's team says it will be clear how much and where he has decided to invest, and then Democrats can decide for themselves whether they think he's spending whatever it takes."
SheltieLover
(57,073 posts)SheltieLover
(57,073 posts)Ty!
Maraya1969
(22,480 posts)PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,856 posts)And they've never changed the outcome of an election. So worrying about that is rather futile. Apparently people don't understand that each candidate has its own slate of electors -- they are not just generic electors selected by some random method. You vote for the Democratic slate of electors, or the Republican one, or the Green party slate.
EndlessWire
(6,529 posts)They rise from each state's election results, which tells which side gets them. At this point, you can see how skullduggery could shift the results. He may blame stuff on the disruption he created himself, but the question remains, what process do we have to dispute the allocation of EC votes to a candidate who did not earn them?
Trump is not above cheating. He'll cheat if he has to in order to win. My point is, it's not so much that there are not many faithless electors, or that they haven't shifted results; my point is that Trump can buy or order the EC to deliver the vote. Here he has enthralled the entire GOP to serve him like slaves. How hard would it be to simply order anonymous electors to vote for him? You think that can't happen? We won't even know who they are.
We have to pursue Plan A. What is a really good Plan B, other than fighting and dying in the streets for democracy? At least we know that the military will not come against us.
I don't want to live in a fascist country. And right now, I'm hard pressed to find a country which wouldn't prevent migration, due to COVID. So, I think we are at the edge of a cliff. We better effing win in November! And a really good Plan B would be helpful! Like marching coupled with a shutdown.
Stock up.
PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,856 posts)The person who has the most votes in the state, with the exception of Maine and Nebraska, get all of the votes. And the Electoral College voters are selected by the party. You vote for the slate of Democratic electors, or the slate of Republican electors. Trump CANNOT order the EC to deliver the vote. That is not how it works. Do you really think that the Democratic electors would vote for him? These are party faithfuls. They aren't anonymous.
Perhaps this will help, from a Google search:
EndlessWire
(6,529 posts)how the EC works.
I am hunting for the source, for you, that explained how Trump could steal the election via the EC. I would like to quote from it for your very literal interpretation. I am confident that I can find it.
EndlessWire
(6,529 posts)"However, any state could change its law and instead allow its legislature to decide which electors will choose the next president."
PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,856 posts)Thinking like that completely misunderstands how the EC works. He won the states that gave him enough EC votes to become President. It's as simple as that. Back on November 9, 2016, there was a lot of pointing out that Hilary didn't campaign in certain crucial states that would have made a difference.
In fact, a truly worst case scenario is that a candidate takes the 11 states needed to gain 270 EC votes: California, Texas, New York, Florida, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Ohio, Michigan, Georgia, North Carolina, New Jersey and win them by the tiniest of majorities. Every other state goes in a huge way for the other candidate, with a significant majority of the overall vote. Nonetheless, the candidate with those 270 EC votes becomes president. Here's a link to an excellent article about the EC, which includes various scenarios: https://www.npr.org/2016/11/02/500112248/how-to-win-the-presidency-with-27-percent-of-the-popular-vote
And again, there's not just a single slate of electors who are then supposed to vote for whoever won in that state. Each and every party has its own specific slate of electors. In fact, among Kanye West's problems with his run for President is electors. Here's a link to an article about one of those problems. https://www.newsweek.com/kanye-west-ohio-election-president-donald-trump-1523262
EndlessWire
(6,529 posts)in my post. Let's agree to disagree. This could go on forever and it is Sunday.
To me, Trump is a guy who would like to point to a win using his manipulation of the system. But, if he doesn't win, he'll just take it anyway, if we don't fight back.
As I am sure you know, the Republicans are poor losers. That is why losing Repub governors passed crippling legislation in some states to hamper newly elected Dem governors. Those that control state legislatures can simply change the procedure in a similar manner, and then elect Trump.
The thing that gets me is why people think that just because something is unfair, it won't be used. We have never had anyone like Trump before; it is 60 or so days to the election, and he doesn't want to lose. How many times did we hear Trump say that he avoided taxes by using the law, and if we didn't want him to do so, the law wouldn't be there for him to take advantage of it.
Let's just say that if we avoid the drama, we will be blessed. I would love to be wrong. I don't look at the election as the end of it, myself. Others are confident that he can't manipulate the vote. We'll see.
PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,856 posts)roamer65
(36,745 posts)They will do the job for us and select Repuke electors.
PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,856 posts)about in-person voting, insisting that mail-in ballots are all fraudulent. They will see nothing wrong with people standing in line for hours, even in miserable weather.