re: Socialism

[kpete]

[zaj]

1. We have a socialist Constitution...

Military, Courts, and the Post Office.

It's that simple.

[Igel]

4. You confuse the opposite of socialism with anarchy.

The opposite of tyranny is anarchy--something I find revealing.

The mail was partially private, but it was a hard thing to keep going before we had fast communication and transportation. Which happened to coincide with increased literacy and great mobility of population and goods; prior to that, couriers were sufficient for most purposes. In fact, the earliest mail service resembled couriers. But private mail service was an aberration historically. As was private armies not associated with some sort of government or wannabe government. And with government went courts.

Some goods are public. You're sort of stuck doing them collectively. Private courts and a system of entirely private roads would be a multi-layered nightmare. Saying those are "socialist" means monarchies and feudal societies were also socialist. The Babylonians were socialist, as were the Romans and classical Chinese dynasties.

Everybody was always socialist. Even Hitler was a proud supporter of socialism, according to this kind of view. And McCarthy, as he was outing communists, was ardently socialist. (Conclusion: Socialism has led to thousands of years of war and oppression.)

If everybody's always been socialist apart from the True Libertarians, then nobody's ever been socialist.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

2. Most Americans wouldn't know socialism anyhow

because it has nothing to do with Social Security or the FDIC. Socialism is an economic system in which the means of production and distribution are collectively owned and controlled - that is, by the government. We don't have that kind of system. The Scandinavian countries, often held up as examples of successful socialist countries, aren't actually socialist either; they are regulated capitalist democracies (and three of them are constitutional monarchies). The existence of a social safety net supported by taxes is not evidence of socialism; neither is the existence of courts, the military, or the USPS.

[Igel]

5. Some had distinctly collectivist parts to their economy.

Health care, petroleum, etc.

Most of them were small and fairly homogenous, with high levels of social trust. They also had low levels of economic growth and most have backed off of from the state of affairs in the '70s. The big thing about social democracy is that it was democracy first and socialist second.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

7. One example - sort of - might be Equinor, Norway's mostly state-owned oil company.

When oil was discovered off the coast about 40 years ago, the government didn't sell the drilling rights to private companies, but retained ownership of 67% of the shares and the remaining shares are traded publicly. The government invests the profits from the sale of oil rather than using them directly to fund social programs, so it's the profits from those capitalist investments that help keep the programs going. Equinor is one of the largest and most profitable oil companies in the world, making Norway one of the richest countries by GDP/population; and even though it's mostly government-owned (collectivist?) it's also spectacularly capitalistic. So I guess it's possible to be both.

[grantcart]

16. Given that Norway made capitalist investment for future revenue flow

Rather than appropriate current assets for distribution it doesn't qualify as socialism but more as collective capitalism.

As you correctly point out it has the highest per capita sovereign fund in the world. Interestingly it's decision making process was not led by an economist or politician but by a philosopher who focused on result based returns rather than ideology which resulted in a collective capitalist result.

While Norway is the most obvious example of a capitalist based country that is most frequently mis perceived as socialist Singapore is the most socialistic country perceived as capitalist.

With more than 70% of the property of the country held by the state and guarantees for universal employment, health care, job training and personal ownership of housing (leases) it has secured the greatest per capita GDP growth rate of any country in the last 50 years raising the inhabitants of an island without natural resources from low Asian standards to above average European standards.

While the governing party (PAP) is perceived as a capitalist party it is in fact a socialist party that is business friendly socialist party that believes in central economic planning and curtail individual rights for community based leadership. An odd blend of authoritarianism with a strict absence of corruption and a near unanimous continuous popular mandate to rule. It is a mirror opposite to Norway but equally successful without the benefit of natural resource exploitation that Norway had.

[Caliman73]

10. Agreed. Well said.

I understand the point of the memes is to highlight the hypocrisy of conservatives who decry "government interference" with their Social Security and try to run on rugged individualism for the poor and middle class while providing subsidy for the wealthy.

Like you said however, the Commons is not the same as socialism. Social Democracy is the more apt term for what people are arguing for when they tout Social Security, the USPS, and public benefits.

Socialism is about the ownership and distribution of economic activities not about a social safety net. FDR and his administration put those things in place precisely to avoid the upheaval that was going on across Europe and the turmoil caused by the Great Depression. He put in a social safety net to save Capitalism from the Socialist and Communist revolutions that were happening at the time.

[ismnotwasm]

15. Yup.

[TheBlackAdder]

21. Municipal or county sewar systems are the one most can relate.

[Progressive dog]

25. Exactly,

[grantcart]

3. Funny but SS isn't socialistic. You have to contribute for 10 years

To be eligible (39 quarters and no retirement payments) and your monthly check is tied to your contribution and not your need.

I support Warren's proposal to make it more socialistic by increasing all retirees income by $ 200 and raising income with a 2% wealth tax.

Not socialist, not capitalist , more in the area of Social Democratic.

[Igel]

6. Many don't realize that Social Security doesn't apply to everybody.

Entire sectors of employers in some states don't contribute to it. They have their own, independent programs set up.

I haven't paid FICA for years, and at one point was both an grad-student employee and a private-sector employee and paid both into the DCP and into FICA. Had to keep the income streams separate because my DCP-covered income wasn't subject to FICA taxes.

[AlexSFCA]

8. most people on DU have no idea what socialism is

Socialism refers to an economic system where means of production are owned by government (state). USA and all other western democracies are market economies which is direct opposite of socialism. Do not confuse social safety nets funded by taxpayers and administered by state to socialism, it’s laughable.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

11. Thank you! This ignorance of basic economic theories drives me nuts!

And it's all over DU. Bernie Sanders makes the same mistake, claiming Denmark is an example of successful socialism, and it isn't - it's an example of successful regulated capitalism that funds social programs. Even a former PM of Denmark got after him about his claim that Denmark is socialist.

[BadGimp]

9. yep!

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

13. Nope! Whoever did that meme doesn't know what they're talking about.

See the other posts in this thread. Social Security isn't socialism.

[Yavin4]

12. A true Socialist would scoff at these things. Calling them opiates to keep the masses under control

of the capitalists. A true Socialist would say this: if you got rid of capitalism all together, you wouldn't need a social welfare state to protect you.

[Jspur]

14. The anti socialist propaganda will

die out once the boomers are gone. I say this because the Boomers and Xers are the only two remaining generations left that grew up during the cold war and in which is likely to see the word socialism associated with communism. The millennials and Gen Z doesn't know what that word is so they won't be susceptible to it.

[brooklynite]

18. You'll let us know when a socialist economy gets established.....anywhere?

[Jspur]

19. I'm not advocating for a socialist economy

but I do believe in universal healthcare and it is established in other capitalistic democracies. The right always throws that line around when health care comes up. They have labeled the ACA as socialism. I’m just saying once the older generations die out we can get past the stigma of this word.

[brooklynite]

17. I wouldn't, because that's not socialism...

I’m amazed at the determination of people here to rehabilitate an economic definition that no Democratic leader endorses.

[BlueWavePsych]

20. This is great. Someone should put together a YouTube video.

Something super simple that contrasts what many Floridians associate Cuba with.
This would be extremely helpful with Latino vote.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

22. Except that it's wrong. Social Security isn't socialism.

It's insurance. You have already paid for it through your FICA withholding.

[BlueWavePsych]

23. Like any learning module, the content needs review.

The overall thread is a good start.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

24. Very good!

Though sure to zoom right over the heads of RWers.