The argument I'm getting re his taxes HELP!

[Bluesaph]

It’s not illegal to use as many loopholes as possible to avoid paying taxes.

Taxes don’t show his assets. He is filthy rich.

It’s not illegal to pay an employee and also said employee’s LLC.

“I’m looking at it like a lawyer would..”

This is my brother and he’s on the fence on who to vote for. Help me argue this please.

[samnsara]

1. if trump lied on any government form...thats is a felony

[Yavin4]

2. A lawyer would say that it's illegal to understate your income on your taxes

But overstate them on bank loans.

[TruckFump]

3. Exactly.

There is no excuse that covers this conduct...and it's clearly fraudulent. I am a retired lawyer.

[mzmolly]

5. Yes.

[Arazi]

6. Do we have evidence of that data point yet?

[uponit7771]

15. Yes, TRMS did nearly half show on what assests Trump inflated to get loans (link)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-inflated-his-total-assets-when-it-served-his-purposes-cohen-alleges-in-his-hearing-citing-financial-documents/2019/02/27/4c41d4e2-3ab3-11e9-a2cd-307b06d0257b_story.html

[Arazi]

45. Cohen provided Trump's version of things, not legal documents

"The “statements of financial condition” are not rigorously audited financial documents. According to a cover letter on one of the documents obtained by The Post, they represented Trump’s own estimates about what he was worth and what he owed."

Folks like the OPs brother wont be satisfied with that. He'll just say (like in the WaPo article), these were just fabricated to inflate his worth for the Forbes list - no harm done by that.

I believe we'll soon see hard evidence of that kind of asset inflation for tax fraud purposes but so far it seems we just have Cohen's papers

[uponit7771]

48. That's still evidence in an investigation and TRMS showed returns and or statements

[meadowlander]

32. Cohen testified under oath to Congress that he prepared documents

that inflated Trump's assets to get a bank loan to bid for the Buffalo Bills.

https://news.wbfo.org/post/buffalo-bills-subject-michael-cohen-congressional-testimony

Also, a whistle-blower from Deutsche Bank said when they were reviewing his loan documents they could all see that he was inflating the value of his assets but there was some mysterious decision at the top to give him the loans anyway.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/19/business/deutsche-bank-trump-kushner.html

[Arazi]

46. Thanks. That kind of testimony is better evidence

[PatSeg]

50. Yes

Then you have both tax fraud AND bank fraud. I think there's plenty in Trump's finances to work with.

[mzmolly]

4. He's being audited over the 72.9 million

dollar refund. We don't know what's illegal, yet.

[The Magistrate]

27. That One Is Actually Pretty Clear, Ma'am

During a casino related bankruptcy, he declared he was abandoning the business he'd run into the ground, securing a paper loss of some seventy millions to offset taxes owed. Shortly thereafter, he received gratis a share in the reorganized company. If he did not abandon his interest, which clearly he did not, then the deduction claim is fraudulent.

[mzmolly]

29. I hope

we'll get to the truth soon. The grifter has to go.

[kimbutgar]

7. So if your brother did the same thing on his taxes and got caught and arrested for

Tax fraud it’s ok for MF45 and not him?

[Fresh_Start]

8. it is not illegal to use legal loopholes

however when you start creating your own (non-legal) loopholes it becomes illegal

[texasfiddler]

9. In the last 15 years trump paid more for sex

than he paid in federal income taxes. Fun fact!

[grumpyduck]

10. Off the top of my head:

It’s not illegal to use as many loopholes as possible to avoid paying taxes.
-- Correct, as long as you don't commit fraud.

Taxes don’t show his assets. He is filthy rich.
-- We don't know he's filthy rich. We only have his word for it.

It’s not illegal to pay an employee and also said employee’s LLC.
-- This gets into the issue of avoiding taxes legally (by deducting the payments) vs. committing fraud.

“I’m looking at it like a lawyer would..”
-- Dude, if you're not a lawyer, look at is a voter and taxpayer. Is this the guy you want running this nation?

[andym]

11. His tax cheating is besides the point-- he is and has been bleeding money like crazy for 15 years

What kind of successful businessman does that? He's not filthy rich, but rather deeply in debt (>$400M), a loser, who is trying to bail his businesses out by feeding them federal business, and delaying paying back his loans by being President--hoping to get special treatment from his lenders no doubt.

Why is he not using his own money on ads with his campaign ? Likely he has none.

[uncle ray]

12. Ask your brother if he's paying more or less tax

after trump removed various deductions for the common worker. How many loopholes for billionaires has trump closed? How does he feel about getting screwed by a 'smart' businessman?

[Arazi]

13. I do believe it's illegal to pay your child to lower your tax burden

I've read that from several legal scholars on Twitter like Barb Mcquade, Stephen Vladeck, and Asha Rangappa. He may want to check that data point again but IANAL

[Moostache]

14. try this?

It’s not illegal to use as many loopholes as possible to avoid paying taxes.

Loopholes are not the same as outright fraud, by any definition.

Taxes don’t show his assets. He is filthy rich.

Yeah, that's why his casinos are all defunct, his golf course hemorrhage money and his debts are going to require an asset sell off in 2024...

It’s not illegal to pay an employee and also said employee’s LLC.

It IS illegal if you "double-dip", they can get paid once, not twice for the same thing for taxes...

“I’m looking at it like a lawyer would..”

Ask him if he thinks its OK to have a POTUS who pays more for hush money to porn stars than taxes on income in the past 10 years?

This is my brother and he’s on the fence on who to vote for. Help me argue this please.

How much do you love this brother? Not trying to be a douche about it, but some people simply cannot be reached and trying to do so will only cause YOU more pain. I can't tell anyone what to do about anything, but I have a sister and toxic brother-in-law that I simply have cut out of my life since 2016 by necessity. I wish you better luck in your family...

[Bluesaph]

40. We are Irish twins

I adore my brother. We have been best friends since I wasn’t yet a year old and he was born. Been through thick and thin with him.

He became highly conservative because we were brought up catholic and as the Catholic Church became more and more sqewed toward evangelicalism he did too. He is also a businessman and doesn’t like unions.

Those are the two subjects we argue about: abortion and unions.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

16. Ask, what would your response be if these were Biden's taxes.

I fully realize that that level of cognitive dissonance won't sink it, but, also, his cult is never going to turn on him anyway.

[lagomorph777]

36. That's the killer argument.

[better]

17. Your brother has himself identified the point that invalidates his argument.

Taxes are SUPPOSED to show your assets, which Trump's DO.

The issue is not the utilization of loopholes.
The issue is committing tax fraud TO utilize those loopholes.

And a comprehensive investigation WILL show that he did, because he simultaneously OVER-valued those assets when applying for loans (bank fraud), and UNDER-valued them when obtaining insurance (insurance fraud) and when filing taxes on them (tax fraud).

[LAS14]

43. ???? I don't think we report our assets on our income tax. Do others. Yes, if we...

... sell an asset. Then you have to report the capital gains.

Am I wrong?

tia
las

[better]

55. Yes, for business taxes, at least, you do report assets.

Mind you, I'm NOT a tax expert, so there may well be some nuances of which I am insufficiently well-versed to comment authoritatively, but on a layman's level, you do report assets, and can claim deductions for depreciation. This is also how, for example, a business gets deductions for their vehicle fleet.

Taking deductions for the vehicles I use in the course of my business is utilizing a loophole.
Over-reporting the COST of those assets would be fraudulent use OF that loophole.

THAT is what Trump is almost certainly guilty of.

It's complicated, because of course income taxes and property taxes are not the same thing, but both of course are real things.

[MagickMuffin]

18. Dear Brother: he took money from foreign government officials

He is a National Security THREAT!

If that doesn't convince your brother on who to vote for then not sure what would.

[LuckyCharms]

19. His severe and repetitive tax losses indicate that he has a poor balance sheet.

There are differences between tax losses and "book losses", however, his tax losses are monumental and he is in debt up to his eyeballs. While we can't yet prove it, my guess is that he has very poor cash flow, if not a negative cashflow.

In addition, he is highly leveraged with hundreds of millions in loans that according to something I saw here yesterday, are coming due and he has not yet made any principal payments on them. Lack of principal payments also indicate that he is dead fucking broke.

[lagomorph777]

39. +1 Negative cashflow for years and years on his tax returns means either:

(1) Not possible he is rich (you don't stay rich that way!) or
(2) Massive tax fraud.

Which is it, bro?

[TheBlackAdder]

20. If he's still on the fence by now, he's voting for Trump but just can't admit it to anyone.

[Arazi]

47. This

[Bad Thoughts]

21. Trump is a security risk and a poor businessman

His accumulated debt disqualifies him in security and military affairs. He is capable of being manipulated by foreign powers. He has made numerous questionable and suspicious security decisions, especially abandoning anti-ISIS allies in Syria and not confronting Putin on bounties on American soldiers.

He is poor at making economic decisions. Even in the midst of the pandemic, he mismanaged the supply of protective wear for both medical professionals and population. He was unwilling to secure the nation's food supply. His tax policies weakened the ability of the government to respond to the economic hardships of the pandemic. His poor staffing choices have made government slower to act.

[Buckeyeblue]

22. His debts outweigh his assets...that's why he doesn't pay taxes.

If he is filthy rich, then he is cheating on his taxes. It's one or the other.

[SoonerPride]

23. He isn't rich. He's broke. In fact he's $410,000,000 in debt

To Russians.

[lagomorph777]

41. I hears $421 million. But who's counting?

Oh yeah. His creditor, Putin.

[Sancho]

24. ...none of these arguments hit the problems....

MF45 owes $$$$s to foreign characters and banks - over $400,000,000. He is vulnerable to influence and has demonstrated his bias already.

MF45 does business NOW in other countries and he is in direct conflict with the emoluments clause of the Constitution. He is doing that NOW.

The tax returns AND ASSOCIATED BACKGROUND MATERIALS point to fraud, but also other serious problem.

[myccrider]

58. +1,000,000

THIS is the more important problem, imo.

Because of imminent debt payments, he is extremely vulnerable to manipulation/influence by US adversaries (and even allies). For example the Saudis could get an arms deal that is NOT in our national interests...oh, wait, that already happened! Or Russia could get us to withdraw our military from important strategic...OH, WAIT, THAT ALREADY HAPPENED, TOO!!!!!

Even an honest, ethical person could be corrupted because of that debt. Trump ain’t honest or ethical, so it’s about 99.9999999999999999999999999% certain that he’s selling the US out for whatever he can get.

[Hoyt]

25. Most of that is true, except for the rich part. But trump is still a conman and loser.

[greenjar_01]

26. Good Lord

Is it legal to state you're abandoning an asset for tax purposes, then to continue accepting revenue from that asset? Well, it's not illegal, but if you do so, you can only report losses of up to $3000 per year for that asset. Trump stated that he abandoned his casino assets, then claimed losses of $72 million for them. He accepted revenue from them after having claimed to abandon them. It's currently before a review board, but it is indeed tax fraud if he declared more than $3000 per year in losses for that asset while knowing he collected revenue after having "abandoned it" for the purpose of the loss declaration.

It is absolutely illegal to claim the same expense twice, which is what Trump did when he had Ivanka on payroll and then paid her again as a consultant through the TTT LLC. The consultant work has to be specifically segregated from the employee work. It's fraud. You can't pay Employee A a salary for Job X, then also pay consultant fees to Employee AAA LLC for Job X, especially if you're using the payment to Employee AAA LLC as an expense for tax purposes. Is your brother a fucking idiot?

[LisaL]

28. Your brother (if he exists) must be glued

to Trump's twitter.
Those are the exact same arguments that Trump is using regarding his taxes.

[Bluesaph]

34. I think this is it!

He is in forums with football fans and they argue politics too. And I think he gets his info from those boards.

He is also anti-choice and I think is looking for any excuse to be able to vote for Rump.

Another comment he made today: I think Trump’s SCOTUS pick will tip the election in his favor. A lot of people who are conservative but were willing to vote for Biden will vote for Trump based on his pick.

To me, that was his “tell”. He can’t defend Trump’s shadiness (my brother is a straight arrow). But he can justify voting for him based on the anti Roe stance.

Thanks for all the good responses. I hope a lawyer here responds with the perfect reply I can cut and paste. Lol.

[PatSeg]

56. If your brother is still on the fence

after all we've seen the past four years, I'm not sure it is worth the effort to try and convince him to vote for Biden. All the information and data is out there. If he really wanted to know the answers to his questions, he could find them in five minutes online.

Meanwhile, I'm not sure it is worth it to get dragged into a debate that probably won't go anywhere, but will most certainly exhaust you. If he thinks a SCOTUS pick is worth living with all this corruption, incompetence, and immorality, I don't think anyone can get through to him. But you know him better than we do, so how to deal with him is up to your own judgment. Good luck! Let us know how it goes.

[honest.abe]

42. +1

[vlyons]

30. While tax avoidance is legal

Tax evasion is illegal, as is falsifying records. For example, if he claimed losses of $20mil, but only had losses far less, that is illegal. If he claimed $70,000 for hair styling and falsified receits as such, that's illegal. If he valued a property at $100mil for a bank loan, but it's really worth far less. That's illegal. If he falsified damage records to an insurance company, that's illegal. If he depreciated property far in excess of ordinary and regular depreciation, that's illegal.

[matt819]

31. The faithful are going to excuse all of it

Some of the excuses might approach legitimate.

Many are just made-up shit.

So ignore it. Tell him to read the NYT articles. If he's convinced it's all kosher, then the question to ask is why trump has been hiding the returns. Apart from that, leave it alone.

Now here's my question, and since I don't know the answer I'm not suggesting you use this in your response.

Loopholes are one thing. Tax-related, rather than cash-related, adjustments can create paper losses. Maybe banks acknowledge this and loan him money anyway on the putative value of the assets and the actual cash returns on the investments.

But. . . it appears to me that many - most? - of the losses are actual cash losses. The business took in x amount of money and spent y amount of money. x-y is less than zero, even before loopholes, depreciation, and such. Who's covering those losses. That's real money, as far as I can tell. Either that, or the businesses had higher revenues that were not reported. Where's that money?

And then there's the apparent personal loans coming due in the nest few years, to the tune of several hundred million dollars. If the money is available to pay those loans, where is it? And there's no money available to pay them, isn't someone going to foreclose or call the repo man? And who hold those notes? Very, very, very important questions. And not only who holds the actual note, but who's behind it, e.g., Putin?

If your brother is still pro-Trump even with these ongoing questions, which may be revealed in future articles, then stop talking politics with your brother. My late brother was a Republican. I don't know why. We weren't particularly close, but we didn't talk politics. My sister might have voted for Trump in 2016. I don't know what she'll do this year. We do not talk politics.

[Roland99]

33. Easy! Loan apps show he's making lots of money and properties are worth exorbitant amounts

tax forms show he's losing money and properties are worth much less

Can't have BOTH

[W_HAMILTON]

35. If they were just legal loopholes, every billionaire would be paying only $750 in income taxes.

Spoiler alert: they weren't just legal loopholes -- many of them point to outright tax fraud.

[Lock him up.]

37. What kind of self-proclaimed billionaire (without provable evidence) steals money from his own CCC*?

*Children's Cancer Charity

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-paid-millions-charities-end-trump-foundation-lawsuit

What kind of self-proclaimed billionaire (without ANY provable evidence) bankrupted multiple CASINOS?

The Mega CONman type.

[beachbumbob]

38. nothing suggest that trump taxes did NOT take full advantage of all the loopholes designed

to turn profits into losses. The 10,000 page taxcode is filled with them. Every GOP "taxcut" has expanded such loopholes especially in the real estate holding area with people like trump. The whole purpose is to show losses as that eliminates and income tax.

really is no argument here and what you been asked or stated to.

The real issue is the fact trump is ecstatic he doen;t have to pay any mONEY to support the military, pay US Soldiers, or pay for the weapons or any GOVT service that PROTECT his assets. He is a grifter. BUT THIS IS TAXCODE.

Wait when we see trumps "charitable" contributions, if there any.

BTW, trump criticized Obama in 2012 as obamas paid 20% of their income in taxes, he inferred that Obama got away with something

[Statistical]

44. Tell him it can't be both.

If he was successful and produced hundreds of millions of dollars in income over the last 20 years he legally owes significant amounts in income taxes except he didn't pay that is called tax evasion.

Alternatively Trump was a colossal business failure not for one or two years but for decades racking up more than a billion dollars in losses. In that case yes he is not required to pay income taxes (he can carry forward losses) however that means he is a failure as a businessman.

There is no scenario where a successful business man doesn't have income taxes for 20 years. A single year? Sure. A few years in 20? Maybe. Not 15 out of 20 years and with two of the paying years being $750.

So ask him which is it:
a) Trump engaged in tax evasion
b) Trump is a broke failure of a businessman

It can't be both. If you have net income (the very definition of success in business) you pay income taxes. How much you pay might vary but you pay.

[GoneOffShore]

49. Take him back to George Washington's words in his farewell address.

A good friend of mine who is one of the foremost and most learned portrayers of George Washington in the country posted this today:

George Washington well understood that paying taxes is a pain in the neck (and the purse) but that it is the CIVIC duty and responsibility of EVERY citizen.
He also understood that it is the obligation of the government to keep our national debt low and not to burden future generations with this current generations debt encumbrances.

From George Washington’s farewell address published in David C. Claypoole’s American Daily Advertiser on September 19, 1796:

“As a very important source of strength and security, cherish public credit.

One method of preserving it is to use it as sparingly as possible, avoiding occasions of expense by cultivating peace, but remembering also that timely disbursements to prepare for danger frequently prevent much greater disbursements to repel it, avoiding likewise the accumulation of debt, not only by shunning occasions of expense, but by vigorous exertion in time of peace to discharge the debts which unavoidable wars may have occasioned, not ungenerously throwing upon posterity the burden which we ourselves ought to bear.
The execution of these maxims belongs to your representatives, but it is necessary that public opinion should co-operate.

To facilitate to them the performance of their duty, it is essential that you should practically bear in mind that towards the payment of debts there must be revenue; that to have revenue there must be taxes; that no taxes can be devised which are not more or less inconvenient and unpleasant; that the intrinsic embarrassment, inseparable from the selection of the proper objects (which is always a choice of difficulties), ought to be a decisive motive for a candid construction of the conduct of the government in making it, and for a spirit of acquiescence in the measures for obtaining revenue, which the public exigencies may at any time dictate.”

Trump claims to pay millions in taxes. HE LIED.
During the 2016 presidential campaign, Republican candidate Trump promised he would eliminate the nation’s debt. Under Trump’s watch the national debt has Increased by $6.6 trillion. HE LIED.
Read Washington‘s words. He is rolling over in his tomb.

https://www.phillymag.com/business/2018/07/03/george-washington-actor-dean-malissa/

[lame54]

51. Just stop arguing...

If Trump says water is dry that will be their position

[Hamlette]

52. it is immoral and I can't look up to an immoral leader. He's worth 10B dollars and he is a drain

on our system as he does not pay his own way.

Our taxes pay for educating children, building roads, delivering the mail, our court system, our police and military.

Why should he get that for free while you and I pay?

Trump supporters hate food stamp recipients because they get stuff for free, how is Trump any different?

[elias7]

53. On the fence? Bullsh*t!

Sounds like my brother, who actually has a law degree tho never practiced law. No matter what Trump does, no matter how egregious the act or statement, he always finds a counter argument. They don’t see their cultishness. How many times would he turn a blind eye to his spouse cheating on him, his kid lying to him, his financial advisor ripping him off? He is actively denying the obvious and in that, has already declared himself.

Give it up. Love him for who he is, but forget ethics and morality, since that part of him is dead.

[Kid Berwyn]

54. "Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society."

Otherwise, we have barbarism, where only the strongest and most ruthless survive. In other words, Trickle Down economics.

[StClone]

57. He is raiding the US Treasury to pay off his debt

He has filed more losses than any other single tax payer over the last ten years.