Trump loses, then, before Jan 20 he resigns, Pence is sworn in and pardons him.

[Hamlette]

I know it will only take care of federal charges but much of the bank stuff is federal so NY will have to do the heavy lifting.

This nightmare interrupts my day dream of winning 30/70.

[BGBD]

1. Pence

probably wouldn't be willing to do that.

Pretty bad legacy to be president, but your only act as such was to pardon the previous president of crimes.

He might choose to resign under that scenerio as well and Trump would first have to install another VP. Probably Barr.

[TallMike]

3. You

have just ruined my sleep for the next 36 odd days and nights.

[CincyDem]

6. Pence will absolutely do it. Nobody with a soul would...but Pence...ya know. n/t

[muriel_volestrangler]

18. There's still the "what's in it for me" aspect

If Pence were to have a month or two as president, with a Democratic House majority, he can achieve little (a few more scuzzy RW judges at whatever level has vacancies, I guess ...). If he were to pardon Trump, that fixes that as the act of his presidency. If he tries to distance himself from Trump, he can still paint himself as the "honorable Republican" who wasn't part of the fraud, Russia conspiracy etc., which gives him a career in RW thinktanks, speeches etc.

The rich Republicans are going to drop Trump like a hot potato when he loses; they'll need a different stooge/attack dog. The rabid base will still love him, but that's not where the money is for a retired politician.

[uriel1972]

42. I doubt Pence will give Trump a second thought

the evangelicals have no great attachment to him, they just want power.

[BGBD]

45. Why wouldn't they?

It would be the step to get rid of Trump earlier and there's nothing to gain by blocking it.

It wouldn't stop the pardon because Trump could simply pardon himself before leaving office. There's no case law that says he can't and it would surely go to SCOTUS, where he would likely win the case.

It would get trump would a few weeks early, mark him for all of history as a President who resigned in shame. The new "President" would be the weakest president in history due to the certain short term he would serve. Furthermore, if they didn't it would mean Pelosi would be in line to before President if no VP were in place. That would mean she would have to resign her position in congress and give up the gavel. She isn't going to do that to be President for a few weeks. Trump could resign just to knock her out of power in that case. She would get the votes to confirm a VP.

Lastly, a pardon only stops DOJ prosecutions. It wouldn't have any authority over congressional hearings or investigations. They could hold hearings to publicly investigate all of the things that they want that have happened over the past few years.

[drray23]

11. not possible.

You cant install a new VP after one resigns without congressional approval constituting a majority vote of both house and senate.

25th Amendment: Whenever there is a vacancy in the office of the Vice President, the President shall nominate a Vice President who shall take office upon confirmation by a majority vote of both Houses of Congress.

[BGBD]

23. I don't know that it would be a problem to get the votes.

The Senate would be a given, but would the House really put up a fight if Pence resigned? We're talking about somebody who might end up as President for a week or two. I don't think it's worth picking the fight when it would mean Trump would be leaving early. Maybe he can't get Barr, but would they really oppose somebody like Chris Christy of Lindsey Graham if he were to lose this year?

Besides all that, this is just hypothetical. Odds are that Trump would just pardon himself and let it go to the Supreme Court is the DOJ tried to fight it later, which I doubt they would. It wouldn't be in Biden or the democrats best interest to have the DOJ go after Trump when he leaves office. It would just push tensions higher when he would be looking to lower them. Besides, Trumps real legal exposure is at the state level and none of this applies to that.

[Hamlette]

27. they can fight over VP, Pence doesn't need congressional approval to become Prez

and then he can pardon. Leave VP slot open. Make it happen close to Jan 20 so who cares?

And you know Pence is dumb enough to fall for Trump's charm and promises to make him rich or just payment for getting rid of abortion. Pence will pardon him.

[JI7]

31. Pence's legacy is already tied to Trump.

[BGBD]

37. Ford

isn't solely remembered as Vice President to Nixon. He had time to do his own thing and develop his own legacy. I think, regardless of anything else, Pence still thinks he has a future in American Politics.

[JI7]

46. Ford was only VP for less than a year before Nixon Resigned. Pence has been with Trump

from the start and he has behaved like a fucking servant to him.

I'm sure Pence hopes he has a future but the reality is that he doesn't have much personal appeal .

[BGBD]

48. you're overestimating

the memory of the American voter. In 4 or 8 years they might remember hating Trump, but they won't remember hating Pence.

[JI7]

49. It's not about hating Pence. It's about not really feeling anything for Pence. He doesn't appeal to

most people because of his creepy religious views. He doesn't have the appeal of Trump to the Trump base which is mostly about red meat .

He is like Santorum and Huckabee.

[BGBD]

50. Might be

but that's surely not his thinking.

He wants to be President, I'm sure. He would look at that decision and say "Does this help me become President." If the answer is no, he's not going to do it.

[tinrobot]

40. He can't install another VP without Congress.

Won't happen.

[greenjar_01]

44. I agree...Pence will have had his fill with disgrace, and there's really nothing in it for him

A new VP would have to be approved by the Senate.

[warrior1]

2. He still owes a fucking lot of money to somebody

[WyattKansas]

55. And I'm sure him and his family have been stealing from the United States Treasury.

Do pardons also erase the debts from that theft?

[RockRaven]

4. Pence could probably get prosecuted for bribery and conspiracy, or something similar.

The quid pro quo there is very overt. And Trump can't keep his mouth shut so he'd admit it in public/on Twitter within weeks.

[Silent3]

7. Nah. All Pence would have to do is say, as Ford did for Nixon...

...that the pardon was meant to "help" the country "move on" so that it could "heal".

Total bullshit, of course, but the legal obstacles to proving it wasn't bullshit would probably be insurmountable.

[KatyMan]

10. And I'm sure the Dems would have no problem

finding enough dirt to go after Pence so that someone from this admin goes down.

[malaise]

5. Pence can't pardon him for New York State crimes

Lock him up!

[Mike 03]

8. Exactly.

[Blue_true]

9. If he got fraudulent loans from federally chartered Banks, then I believe

the crimes are all federal crimes. So technically, a pardon would clear up a heap of problems for him.

[grumpyduck]

16. But if he committed any crimes on his Federal returns,

then he probably did too on his NYS ones, so there's some hope there.

[ananda]

12. Pardons him for what?

???

[GoCubsGo]

19. Tax evasion, for starters.

[lindalou65]

24. Exactly....

He must be charged with a crime before he can be pardoned. Yes, we all know he is up to his eyeballs in illegal stuff---

[sarisataka]

25. Nope /nt

[Tom Traubert]

35. No.

Nixon was never charged.

[ace3csusm]

13. Its going to go down like this Trump will pardon his entire team first (Pence included)

a few days later Trump will resign and Pence will pardon, unless Pence resigns first and at that point Trump is done if he resigns Pelosi become President ...

[moose65]

17. I'm not sure how pardons work

Can a president pardon someone with a blanket statement like “Trump is pardoned for any crimes he committed, past or future.” Can it really be that general?

[exboyfil]

21. Not future

But Nixon's pardon was B.S. like that.

[sarisataka]

26. Just have to change the names and dates...

Now, THEREFORE, I, GERALD R. FORD, President of the United States, pursuant to the pardon power conferred upon me by Article II, Section 2, of the Constitution, have granted and by these presents do grant a full, free, and absolute pardon unto Richard Nixon for all offenses against the United States which he, Richard Nixon, has committed or may have committed or taken part in during the period from January 20, 1969 through August 9, 1974.

[Tom Traubert]

36. Past crimes.

Not future ones.

[Laelth]

14. I dream of Biden winning 65-35.

You dream big!



-Laelth

[JPbelgium]

15. ...and the 22nd someone discovers a technicality, making the pardon null and void... (n/t)

[mercuryblues]

20. Pence is a slime

I think he would make a deal to pardon trump. After pence is sworn in I don't think he will actually do it.

[exboyfil]

22. That I would enjoy

[Roland99]

28. Doesn't protect him from State charges

[PTWB]

29. Trump may well be able to pardon himself.

There is nothing in the constitution that would prevent him from doing so and it isn’t an area of law that has been settled in court.

I expect he will pardon himself and his entire administration.


Trump’s real liability comes in the form of State prosecutions. I can’t wait to see the Trump crime family take up residence in Attica.

[Xolodno]

30. I've been saying that all along.

And I don't think New York or other states have the resources to continue to go after him. They will settle out of court...then Trump goes BK.

I bet most of Trump's money is in a Cypriot bank.

[Quixote1818]

32. Trump is dumb though and probably thinks he hasn't done anything wrong. He won't want to admit he

committed a crime. I bet he takes his chances, doesn't do anything and loses.

[jmowreader]

33. No pardon is actually necessary

This is how it works:

Because Trump's crimes are significant, he would be tried by jury. In the United States, a jury is 12 people and they've got to vote unanimously to convict - a problem that probably should be solved. If Trump's lawyers can get one MAGAt onto the jury panel, that bastard will stop any conviction from happening.

In fact, I can see Trump and Pence resigning simultaneously after the next Congress is seated - because that act WILL end the speakership of Nancy Pelosi.

[budkin]

34. That's what Michael Cohen said would happen

Not sure if he can, but look at all the other shit they got away with.

[KentuckyWoman]

38. I don't care how he goes away

He can slap on a flag speedo and steal a Ford Pinto to run off to Maralago and secede from the union for all I care.

Just please make him take all his spawn with him.

[struggle4progress]

39. Accepting a pardon is admission of guilt. There may be lots of potential there.

[hamsterjill]

41. Putin will have him killed.

Donald is no longer useful if he’s not President. Glad I’d going to call that $421 million note. When Donald can’t pay, we know what happens.

It’s tea time.

[uriel1972]

43. I think you may have something there...

Trump better get a food taster.

[JI7]

47. Disagree, He would use Trump for Propaganda against the US

Maybe he might be killed if he actively went against Putin .

But I think as long as Trump spews BS to try to cause problems in the US Putin will let him live.

[hamsterjill]

53. Disagreement noted.

It’s a possibility. But Trump is a liability that might know too much, too. Only time will tell.

Happy Debate Night!!! Go, Joe!

[muriel_volestrangler]

51. Putin doesn't kill for revenge; he kills to eliminate enemies, or to intimidate others

who might think of turning against him. There isn't a reservoir of American politicians thinking of collaborating with Putin after this who need frightening. It wouldn't gain Putin anything, and the risk of being found out would be too great - the world would never forgiver Putin for killing an ex-head of state of a big country, even Trump. Putin's killings may need plausible deniability, but they also need to make someone worried that it was Putin and that he'd do it to them.

[hamsterjill]

54. I think Putin kills without anyone even knowing it's Putin.

He’s ex-KGB. Those people kill for the thrill. He’s had Trump running scared for four years now, at least. We will see what happens. Who knows, Donnie may be begging to get into a cell in NY for protection. But that didn’t work out too well for Epstein, did it?

[Vivienne235729]

52. He can't pardon him for charges haven't made yet.