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Zeus69

(391 posts)
Mon Oct 26, 2020, 02:23 PM Oct 2020

PA: Insider Advantage (B-) Trump +3


?s=20

Post-debate poll. The same poll had Biden in the lead less than two weeks ago. Not a trend I want to accept...

Why? InsiderAdvantage’s Matt Towery explained why things have moved in Trump’s favor:

“These results indicate a stark shift in the contest. Our last survey of Pennsylvania showed Joe Biden leading Trump by three points. But that survey was before the last debate. Since the debate Trump has picked up support from younger voters, who based on our prior survey strongly oppose future lockdowns over Covid-19 spikes. Trump has also bolstered his lead among male voters by some twelve points. Biden continues to hold a seven point advantage over Trump among female voters. It would be nothing more than mere conjecture to attempt to correlate Biden’s statements on energy and fracking in the last debate contest with the shift towards Trump in this survey. However, Trump saw gains even among senior voters which have not been his strong suit this election cycle. That suggests that some issue or set of events has caused a late shift in the contest.”
72 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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PA: Insider Advantage (B-) Trump +3 (Original Post) Zeus69 Oct 2020 OP
Major outlier from other polls today. lagomorph777 Oct 2020 #1
Whew, thanks, I thought as much, just good seeing you say this. a kennedy Oct 2020 #3
Yes. The other polls have Biden up 7-8 points in PA. ananda Oct 2020 #36
I am doubtful of the accuracy of this poll. But like all of them all that matters is GOTV. SoonerPride Oct 2020 #2
This is cataclysmic NewsCenter28 Oct 2020 #4
There is one thing here I always read. n/t rzemanfl Oct 2020 #8
We did win it...and this is a garbage poll suggest you add a sarcasm tag or self delete. Demsrule86 Oct 2020 #18
Why in the world are you believing this poll? obamanut2012 Oct 2020 #20
Have you checked his other posts and threads? Awsi Dooger Oct 2020 #31
It did move close to 5 points NewsCenter28 Oct 2020 #57
cataclysmic??? Seriously? Drama queen much? Roland99 Oct 2020 #27
Oh the huge manatee! zackymilly Oct 2020 #52
Nonsense. It's an outlier poll done for a right-wing organization. MineralMan Oct 2020 #53
See post #57 of mine NewsCenter28 Oct 2020 #58
One poll mcar Oct 2020 #61
Right Wing source. n/t rzemanfl Oct 2020 #5
amgreatness?? WTF? it's a dailycaller / breitbart pos propaganda site Roland99 Oct 2020 #6
Extreme right wing! lagomorph777 Oct 2020 #16
Yup obamanut2012 Oct 2020 #23
This is a GOP internal poll Jamesyu Oct 2020 #7
Have anything to show it was GoP commissioned? Amishman Oct 2020 #11
The center for american greatness dsc Oct 2020 #32
Ah, it was right in front of me Amishman Oct 2020 #37
The "InsiderAdvantage for the Center for American Greatness"? Sounds credible. Snort. Efilroft Sul Oct 2020 #9
"... one of the least accurate polling firms ..." struggle4progress Oct 2020 #10
Only in primaries NewsCenter28 Oct 2020 #19
lol no, he doesn't obamanut2012 Oct 2020 #24
Yeah he does NewsCenter28 Oct 2020 #26
" ... We identified seven InsiderAdvantage polls from the 2004 primary campaign, which struggle4progress Oct 2020 #28
Western PA is tore up over fracking Tom Rivers Oct 2020 #12
Proof? Sugarcoated Oct 2020 #69
No, people were freaking out on social media Tom Rivers Oct 2020 #71
PA is gonna kick crooked Donnie's ass Sugarcoated Oct 2020 #72
Garbage poll. roamer65 Oct 2020 #13
"... the leading voice of the next generation of American Conservatism ..." struggle4progress Oct 2020 #14
Bullshit internal Trump poll Demsrule86 Oct 2020 #15
Except there's no lockdown in PA anymore DeminPennswoods Oct 2020 #46
yawn obamanut2012 Oct 2020 #17
Already watched Bly Manor. Zeus69 Oct 2020 #30
"young voters strongly oppose future lockdowns over COVID" Blaukraut Oct 2020 #21
no obamanut2012 Oct 2020 #25
They definitely do not want to be locked down again. Nt helpisontheway Oct 2020 #40
Umm.... here is the sponsor of this BumRushDaShow Oct 2020 #22
Sean Hannity poll Proud liberal 80 Oct 2020 #29
The fuck is this polling firm? vercetti2021 Oct 2020 #33
Shit! Here we go.. He tightened the race the final week last time with a lot of appearances helpisontheway Oct 2020 #34
He hasn't tightened anything vercetti2021 Oct 2020 #39
So some red flags that might help people spot other dubious polls Statistical Oct 2020 #34
Thanks a lot Statistical-that is very useful and helpful NewsCenter28 Oct 2020 #50
I didn't have to read beyond these sentences: Awsi Dooger Oct 2020 #38
Troll poll MoonlitKnight Oct 2020 #41
SNORT DemocratSinceBirth Oct 2020 #68
Another poll today shows Biden leading PA by 8 - link Alhena Oct 2020 #42
Only 33 Independents? BraKez2 Oct 2020 #43
Look at the crosstabs - Trump up 6 among 18-44 Eid Ma Clack Shaw Oct 2020 #44
B- is being to generous edhopper Oct 2020 #45
Rasumussen having Biden ahead should be a big clue DeminPennswoods Oct 2020 #47
We shall see soon enough. David__77 Oct 2020 #48
Democrats have banked over 1M votes in Rice4VP Oct 2020 #49
So, a poll done for a right-wing customer shows Trump ahead? MineralMan Oct 2020 #51
Right on-wouldn't have even noticed this poll at all probably NewsCenter28 Oct 2020 #59
This is right wing content. ooky Oct 2020 #54
Oh hey, dware Oct 2020 #55
Chris Buskirk is a Trumper honest.abe Oct 2020 #56
It does represent a sizable shift from their last poll, which had Joe up 3 Algernon Moncrieff Oct 2020 #60
"Traditionally, the incumbent typically gets most of the undecided vote." DemocratSinceBirth Oct 2020 #62
I'll vote with "hotly disputed" but it's an interesting take Algernon Moncrieff Oct 2020 #63
One way to look at it. DemocratSinceBirth Oct 2020 #64
I know Ras (who is famously in the tank for FAUX) is the only national poll with Trump up over Joe Algernon Moncrieff Oct 2020 #66
PA: Ipsos (B-) Biden +5 krawhitham Oct 2020 #65
PA: YouGov (B) Biden +7 krawhitham Oct 2020 #67
Why is it that Republicans so often prefer Soviet imagery? DFW Oct 2020 #70

SoonerPride

(12,286 posts)
2. I am doubtful of the accuracy of this poll. But like all of them all that matters is GOTV.
Mon Oct 26, 2020, 02:26 PM
Oct 2020

If we get out and vote we win and win big.

NewsCenter28

(1,835 posts)
4. This is cataclysmic
Mon Oct 26, 2020, 02:29 PM
Oct 2020

To our chances in the electoral college and for unseating Toad. The debate may have swung the election. Stunned. All the snap polls showed we won it.

 

Awsi Dooger

(14,565 posts)
31. Have you checked his other posts and threads?
Mon Oct 26, 2020, 02:49 PM
Oct 2020

He had a long thread insisting the final debate would cause at least a 5 point shift in either direction. He said in that thread President Romney would be finishing up his second term right now, without Superstorm Sandy.

Now this internal poll is cataclysmic

NewsCenter28

(1,835 posts)
57. It did move close to 5 points
Mon Oct 26, 2020, 04:04 PM
Oct 2020

It did move the numbers by 5 points. Well almost 5 points. In the IBD/TIPP daily national tracking poll, Biden's lead went from around 3 to around 7 post-debate. Biden's lead also increased roughly by 2.5-3 points post-debate in the USC national tracking poll as well. I think it was 10, 10, and 10 in their 3 models in the last poll before the debate and now it's 13, 12 and 12. So, Biden's strong debate performance solidified his lead.

Had Toad actually won the debate, it's not hard to see IBD/TIPP showing +1 Toad or even now and USC just spitballing here 5, 7 and 7, which given it's pro-Biden lean might have indicated a 2-3 point race, which makes the EC a tossup.

As for President Obama, watch the First Ladies Documentary on CNN on Michelle Obama if it re-airs. The narrator, Robin Wright, intones "President Obama mounts a comeback victory" during their 2012 section. I truly believe SuperStorm Sandy reminded people why they liked President Obama so much and voted for him in the first place. Seeing him in action was one of the decisive moments in the campaign. Norah O'Donnell closed the 3rd debate on CBS by saying something like "even though President Obama had a strong performance tonight, all the momentum is with Mitt Romney." I remember, as I watched it live. Sandy destroyed that momentum, that the media perceived at least, and swung it back the right way.

Anyways, now that I've read more on this thread about the methodology and people behind this poll, I do agree that it's hardly a cataclysmic poll at all and is rather a push poll. The B- rating just threw me off a bit initially.

I don't think you have any idea how important a Biden win is to SO MANY people, especially me.

MineralMan

(146,308 posts)
53. Nonsense. It's an outlier poll done for a right-wing organization.
Mon Oct 26, 2020, 03:54 PM
Oct 2020

It's utter bullshit. But, I see you have taken the bait and swallowed it. Soon, you'll be in the boat.

NewsCenter28

(1,835 posts)
58. See post #57 of mine
Mon Oct 26, 2020, 04:06 PM
Oct 2020

Thanks to the hard work of fellow DUers, I've come off the ledge and see this poll for what it is now. The B- rating just threw me off, initially.

 

Jamesyu

(259 posts)
7. This is a GOP internal poll
Mon Oct 26, 2020, 02:30 PM
Oct 2020

I wouldn't take too much stock into this one, they have trump at 14% with AA, not going to happen.

Amishman

(5,557 posts)
37. Ah, it was right in front of me
Mon Oct 26, 2020, 02:54 PM
Oct 2020

Thanks. I was thinking it was just a right-wing source reporting the results, but yes Center for American Greatness paid for it

Efilroft Sul

(3,579 posts)
9. The "InsiderAdvantage for the Center for American Greatness"? Sounds credible. Snort.
Mon Oct 26, 2020, 02:31 PM
Oct 2020

It's as if they're trying to play Jedi mind tricks on themselves.

NewsCenter28

(1,835 posts)
19. Only in primaries
Mon Oct 26, 2020, 02:38 PM
Oct 2020

Read further. Nate says this is basically an adequate GE firm, although somewhat below average, and it’s troubles lie in primary polling.

That said, need further polls to confirm.

NewsCenter28

(1,835 posts)
26. Yeah he does
Mon Oct 26, 2020, 02:43 PM
Oct 2020

More broadly, however, InsiderAdvantage’s problems do not stem from their polling in general elections, which has been somewhat below average — but unbiased and basically adequate. Instead, it stems from their polling in primaries, as is apparent from their Pollster Scorecard:

Anyway, need further polls to confirm.

struggle4progress

(118,282 posts)
28. " ... We identified seven InsiderAdvantage polls from the 2004 primary campaign, which
Mon Oct 26, 2020, 02:45 PM
Oct 2020

we did not have in our database before. Results-wise, these polls were terrible, missing by 12.4 points on average ... We also found, in accordance with the more sophisticated version of the analysis that I presented at Fordham, that their 2008 general election polling was in fact somewhat below average, rather than somewhat above average. We now account for all polls that a firm conducts within the 21 days prior to an election, rather than merely the last one. This compounded InsiderAdvantage’s problems because, for instance, they conducted four polls of the Democratic primary in North Carolina, all of which were poor ..."

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/pollster-scorecard-insideradvantage-be/

Tom Rivers

(459 posts)
12. Western PA is tore up over fracking
Mon Oct 26, 2020, 02:33 PM
Oct 2020

We're going to need big margins in the rest of the state, especially Philly.

Tom Rivers

(459 posts)
71. No, people were freaking out on social media
Mon Oct 26, 2020, 07:35 PM
Oct 2020

Taking Joe's comments on energy from the last debate out of context and trying to make it like he would shut down all oil and natural gas production overnight. It was a really absurd interpretation of his position but there was a local reporter on MSNBC the next day making it like every one in Western PA was freaking out over it. I'm not spewing anything, it's important to know the line of attack that's being used against us, especially in a crucial state. We need big margins in Philly, folks in the big cities can't sit this one out.

Sugarcoated

(7,724 posts)
72. PA is gonna kick crooked Donnie's ass
Mon Oct 26, 2020, 07:49 PM
Oct 2020

No one in Philly or the surrounding burbs are going to "sit this one out".

Demsrule86

(68,576 posts)
15. Bullshit internal Trump poll
Mon Oct 26, 2020, 02:35 PM
Oct 2020

Here is one from 10 days ago.

Donald Trump is closing the gap with Joe Biden in Pennsylvania as election day nears according to a new survey by InsiderAdvantage Chairman Matt Towery for the Center for American Greatness.

"The phone survey of 400 likely voters conducted October 12-13 showed Biden with a 3-point lead (MoE =+/- 4.9) over Trump. The recent Real Clear Politics poll average has shown Biden with a 7 point lead but that’s been shrinking. The next most recent poll of Pennsylvania showed Biden with just a 2-point lead.

Towery says that ”This race is certainly close given that the spread is within the margin of error. However it is obvious that the Trump campaign has a problem with voters 65 and older. This is true in several battleground states, but more obvious in Pennsylvania. This is problematic given the fact that these older voters have increasingly become the base of the Republican Party. What is keeping the race so close are voters who are “middle aged.” Trump enjoys a huge lead among those voters and is doing better with younger voters than some polls might suggest.”

“It is clear that voters are split over the state’s rigid series of shutdowns related to COVID-19. Almost fifty-percent of voters agree with the recent WHO declaration that shutdowns are not the best alternative for future COVID spikes. And among those under 65, opposition to lockdowns is substantial. This suggests that a plan to protect seniors and to allow younger voters the ability to avoid future shutdowns of businesses and schools could be a winning combination for one of the candidates in the state.”

DeminPennswoods

(15,286 posts)
46. Except there's no lockdown in PA anymore
Mon Oct 26, 2020, 03:38 PM
Oct 2020

There are percent capacity limits (50% of max fire marshall determined capacity) indoors and a sliding percent scare for outdoor events.

All businesses are allowed to be open albeit with mandatory face-covering restrictions.

obamanut2012

(26,076 posts)
17. yawn
Mon Oct 26, 2020, 02:38 PM
Oct 2020

Go binge Bly Manor or something else constructive. Posting this poll is neither constructive nor useful.

Blaukraut

(5,693 posts)
21. "young voters strongly oppose future lockdowns over COVID"
Mon Oct 26, 2020, 02:39 PM
Oct 2020

This is something I've been wondering about. Could part of the huge increase in young voters be because they don't want another lockdown, so they're actually voting Trump?

That said: This poll does stink to high heaven. No way is Trump up 3% in PA.

BumRushDaShow

(128,979 posts)
22. Umm.... here is the sponsor of this
Mon Oct 26, 2020, 02:39 PM
Oct 2020
Our Declaration of Independence from the Conservative Movement
By The Editors
July 21, 2016

American Greatness aims to be the leading voice of the next generation of American Conservatism.

https://amgreatness.com/2016/07/21/declaration-independence-conservative-movement/


The last "A" poll was on Oct. 23 - https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/pennsylvania/

I don't know why 538 didn't put a big " * " next to that one on their site because it is clearly "partisan" like they indicate "Public Policy Polling" is.

I think if Biden can hold at or above 50% in any poll, he may have the best chance. Those polls that do the "48% - 43% stuff, although seemingly suggesting someone is "ahead", often blow in the opposition's favor because they are apparently reflecting a larger amount of uncertainty.

helpisontheway

(5,008 posts)
34. Shit! Here we go.. He tightened the race the final week last time with a lot of appearances
Mon Oct 26, 2020, 02:53 PM
Oct 2020

One would think it would hurt him since he is a damn idiot. How could anyone look at that damn debate and decide to vote for that fool again. Biden needs to be on the trail this week. His surrogates need to be out there. Personal I would prefer for them to solely focus on what used to be our blue wall and maybe Florida.

Statistical

(19,264 posts)
34. So some red flags that might help people spot other dubious polls
Mon Oct 26, 2020, 02:53 PM
Oct 2020

Last edited Mon Oct 26, 2020, 04:02 PM - Edit history (1)

https://overland.amgreatness.com/app/uploads/2020/10/PA-POll-Oct-25th-.pdf

First the sample size is only 400 voters. For a race like PA and at this point in the race that is way too low. It means the MoE is 4.9% meaning that the +/- margin could be off by as much as 9.8% meaning not +3 Trump but actually +6.7 Biden.

If you want to run a lot of garbage polls and then just publish the results you like a large MoE is very useful. So you run a poll it shows Biden up 2 and you don't report it, you run it again and it shows Biden up 4 and you don't report it. You run it again and it shows Trump up 3 and you report that.

Most highly rated polling companies are using larger samples with smaller MoE (+/- 2%) in close states. If the race is close a wide MoE makes the results basically useless because most likely the results are going to be within the MoE (statistical tie) like this one is. The only way to avoid that it to use a larger sample with a smaller margin but if you goal is to published outliers that actually works against you.

Second is the tiny number of independents in the demographic. Independents are breaking for Biden so underrepresenting them is a way to push the results. They only makeup 8% of the poll vs the 20% normally. The poll internals show them breaking for Biden 3 to 1.

NewsCenter28

(1,835 posts)
50. Thanks a lot Statistical-that is very useful and helpful
Mon Oct 26, 2020, 03:49 PM
Oct 2020

Helps me spot the "Troll Polls" better. It should be noted that a 6.7 Biden lead would match the poll average in PA pretty much.

Also, helpful to know that Sean Hannity's programming director is behind this poll, as well and that independents are highly undersampled.

I dislike how the right-wing is flooding the poll market with garbage polls that are anxiety, if not outright panic-attack inducing. It'd be nice to see a lot more left-wing polling firms and respected media outlets polling. Instead we get GOP firms like Gravis, Trafalgar, Rasmussen and now Insider Advantage flooding the market. This needs to be worked on.

 

Awsi Dooger

(14,565 posts)
38. I didn't have to read beyond these sentences:
Mon Oct 26, 2020, 02:55 PM
Oct 2020

"Trump has also bolstered his lead among male voters by some twelve points. Biden continues to hold a seven point advantage over Trump among female voters."

Hilarious. There is no planet in the universe in which a debate causes a 12 point shift among males, or that Biden leads among females by only 7 points

Alhena

(3,030 posts)
42. Another poll today shows Biden leading PA by 8 - link
Mon Oct 26, 2020, 02:57 PM
Oct 2020
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/pres_general/

The poll showing Biden leading polled twice as many people and was run by a university, not Sean Hannity's programming director. Plus, the same university did another PA poll a while back that only showed a 4 point PA lead for Biden. So they show his numbers going up, not down.

So there's no reason to think the debate killed Biden in PA, and, at any rate, most Dems had already voted in PA by that time. I feel very good about PA.

Eid Ma Clack Shaw

(490 posts)
44. Look at the crosstabs - Trump up 6 among 18-44
Mon Oct 26, 2020, 03:01 PM
Oct 2020

This is a clown car poll designed to placate Dear Leader or claim bragging rights in the event of an upset.




edhopper

(33,579 posts)
45. B- is being to generous
Mon Oct 26, 2020, 03:17 PM
Oct 2020

Fox News
A-
Oct. 17-20 45% 50% Biden +5
Quinnipiac University
B+
Oct. 16-19 43% 51% Biden +8
Gravis Marketing
C
Oct. 23 44% 51% Biden +7
InsiderAdvantage
B-
Oct. 25 48% 46% Trump +3

CNN/SSRS
B/C
Oct. 15-20 43% 53% Biden +10
Public Policy Polling
B
Oct. 21-22 46% 51% Biden +5
Rasmussen Reports/Pulse Opinion Research
C+
Oct. 18-19 47% 50% Biden +3
Morning Consult
B/C
Oct. 11-20 43% 52% Biden +9

Rice4VP

(1,235 posts)
49. Democrats have banked over 1M votes in
Mon Oct 26, 2020, 03:48 PM
Oct 2020

Pennsylvania. Shrug

Pollls at this point are useless unless they are only polling people who haven’t voted

MineralMan

(146,308 posts)
51. So, a poll done for a right-wing customer shows Trump ahead?
Mon Oct 26, 2020, 03:52 PM
Oct 2020

How surprising. Thanks so much for sharing that with us. Really...

honest.abe

(8,678 posts)
56. Chris Buskirk is a Trumper
Mon Oct 26, 2020, 04:01 PM
Oct 2020

Here's his book:



Sorry for the ugly image but I wanted to show the cover.

Here are his comments on his other book:

The success of the Trump presidency will be judged in large part on his ability to reduce the size and scope of the deep state. The unelected, unaccountable permanent bureaucratic leviathan that winds itself around the body and squeezes its life out must be dismantled if Trump’s legacy is to be a permanent restoration of republican government. Fortunately, his administration is doing that. Quietly and without fanfare he is reducing oppressive regulation and reining in what has become the fourth, all-powerful branch of government. There is much yet to be done, but less than two years in, President Trump has taken steps to return power to its rightful home―the sovereign American citizen.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1641770317/ref=cm_sw_r_tw_dp_U_x_wbCbBb2G4BPZZ

Buskirk is the publisher/editor of the operation who sponsored the poll:

https://amgreatness.com/meet-the-team/

I am certain it is complete garbage. Ignore it.

Algernon Moncrieff

(5,790 posts)
60. It does represent a sizable shift from their last poll, which had Joe up 3
Mon Oct 26, 2020, 04:15 PM
Oct 2020

It is the most current poll in at RCP. Is it accurate or an outlier? Hard to say until more polls come in.

Traditionally, the incumbent typically gets most of the undecided vote. All thing being equal, people dislike change. But there are not a lot of undecided voters out there right now. Fewer than most elections.

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,710 posts)
62. "Traditionally, the incumbent typically gets most of the undecided vote."
Mon Oct 26, 2020, 04:29 PM
Oct 2020


That is simply incorrect or hotly disputed:


Incumbent Races:
Closer Than They Appear

by Nick Panagakis


How will undecideds vote on election day? Traditionally, there have been two schools of thought about how undecideds in trial heat match-ups will divide up at the ballot box. One is that they will break equally; the other, that they will split in proportion to poll respondents who stated a candidate preference.

But our analysis of 155 polls reveals that, in races that include an incumbent, the traditional answers are wrong. Over 80% of the time, most or all of the undecideds voted for the challenger.

The 155 polls we collected and analyzed were the final polls conducted in each particular race; most were completed within two weeks of election day. They cover both general and primary elections, and Democratic and Republican incumbents. They are predominantly from statewide races, with a few U.S. House, mayoral and countywide contests thrown in. Most are from the 1986 and 1988 elections, although a few stretch back to the 1970s.

The polls we studied included our own surveys, polls provided to us directly by CBS, Gallup, Gordon S. Black Corp., Market Opinion Research, Tarrance Associates, and Mason-Dixon Opinion Research, as well as polls that appeared in The Polling Report.

In 127 cases out of 155, most or all of the undecideds went for the challenger:


DISPOSITION OF UNDECIDED VOTERS
.

Most to challenger 127
Split equally 9
Most to incumbent 19

Undec.gif (1963 bytes)

The fact that challengers received a majority of the undecided vote in 82% of the cases studied proves that undecideds do not split proportionally. If there were a tendency for them to split proportionally we would see most undecided voters moving to incumbents, since incumbents win most elections. Similarly, even accounting for sample error, it’s clear from the chart above that undecideds do not split equally.

For poll users and reporters this phenomenon, which we call the Incumbent Rule, means:

Incumbent races should not be characterized in terms of point spread. If a poll shows one candidate leading 50% to 40%, with 10% undecided, a 10-point spread will occur on election day only if undecideds split equally (i.e. a 55% to 45% outcome). Since most of the 10 points in the undecided category are likely to go to the challenger, polls are a lot closer than they look – 50% to 40% is likely to become 52% to 48%, on election day. If a poll is a mirror of public opinion, think of an incumbent poll as one in which objects are closer than they appear.
An incumbent leading with less than 50% (against one challenger) is frequently in trouble; how much depends on how much less than 50%. A common pattern has been for incumbents ahead with 50% or less to end up losing. Final polls showing losing incumbents ahead are accurate. The important question is whether results are reported with an understanding of how undecideds decide.
Many polls may have been improperly analyzed and reported. Some postmortem accounts of polls have been inaccurate -- many polls remembered as wrong were, in fact, right. It’s only natural to interpret the term "undecided" literally. But as with so many other findings in survey research, data should be analyzed according to what they mean, not what they say.

Undecided about the Incumbent
Why do undecided voters decide in favor of challengers?

It seems that undecided voters are not literally undecided, not straddling the fence unable to make a choice – the traditional interpretation. An early decision to vote for the incumbent is easier because voters know incumbents best. It helps to think of undecided voters as undecided about the incumbent, as voters who question the incumbent’s performance in office. Most or all voters having trouble with this decision appear to end up deciding against the incumbent.

The exceptions we found to the Incumbent Rule help support the theory on why this happens.

Many challengers who did not get a majority of undecideds were recent or current holders of an office equal to the one they were seeking. Voters were equally or more familiar with the challenger’s past performance in a similar office, so the challenger assumed incumbent characteristics. Other exceptions include well-known challengers or short-term incumbents.

Some examples of where more undecideds voted for incumbents or split evenly:

Last year in Minnesota, where Hubert Humphrey III challenged Sen. David Durenberger; and in Nebraska, where Bob Kerrey, the former governor, challenged David Karnes, who had been appointed to his Senate seat. In 1986 in Florida, when incumbent Sen. Paula Hawkins faced ex-Gov. Bob Graham. And in Chicago in 1979, where two-year incumbent Mayor Michael Bilandic split undecided voters with challenger Jane Byrne.

These examples and similar ones account for 17 of the 28 exceptions to the Incumbent Rule that we uncovered. In some of the remaining cases, the incumbent simply turned the race around in the final days. A good example of this is the 1982 Missouri Senate race pitting incumbent John Danforth against Harriet Woods. Other exceptions can be explained by sampling error.

There is an interesting pattern in the polls where most undecideds voted for challengers. In 98 of the 127 cases (77%), the incumbents’ final polls standing was plus or minus four percentage points from the actual election result. The most frequent result was two points gained by the incumbent over the final poll preferences -- 24 cases in all.

In 41 cases, or 32% of the 127, the incumbent ended with less than his stated poll percentage. This means that about one in four of all 155 polls actually overstated the incumbent’s percentage.

Of the 127 challengers who gained more undecideds than did incumbents on election day, 78 gained 10 or more points over their stated poll percentage.

Making allowances for factors stated above, most polls appear to estimate support for the incumbent. All or most undecideds end up with the challenger regardless of the size of the undecideds.

Most troublesome are polls showing an incumbent leading but who ends up losing the election.

Some examples: In Wisconsin in 1986, incumbent Gov. Tony Earl and incumbent Attorney General Bronson LaFollette were ahead in the late polls with less than 50%, but lost by five and seven points, respectively. In 1986, one poll showed Georgia incumbent Sen. Mack Mattingly ahead by 10 points, but he gained only one more point to lose with 49%. In 1984, incumbent Illinois Sen. Charles Percy led with 45% and 49% in final polls and wound up losing the election 48% to 50%. ...

Avoiding Election Day Surprises
The overwhelming evidence is that an incumbent won’t share the undecideds equally with the challenger. To suggest otherwise by emphasizing point spread or to say that an incumbent is ahead when his or her percentage is well under 50% leads to election day surprises.

https://www.pollingreport.com/incumbent.htm










Algernon Moncrieff

(5,790 posts)
63. I'll vote with "hotly disputed" but it's an interesting take
Mon Oct 26, 2020, 04:46 PM
Oct 2020

I recall somewhere in my political science education (which took place in the late Jurassic age) being told that undecided voters break about 2 - 1 for the incumbent, and the rationale for the explanation was some version of inertia - the incumbent is the guy they know; they have uncertainty about what a new guy might do; etc. But an election with a large number of undecided voters generally indicated an electorate that either has two good choices, or is vexed between two conflicting issues. This doesn't seem to be that. If you are getting shafted in the COVID economy, or you've lost loved ones, you are most likely madder than Hell at Trump. If you are a white person in favor of "law and order," you are pro-gun, or you are anti-choice, then you are likely supporting Trump. I don't see a lot of middle ground here.

Your post is an interesting read, so thanks!

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,710 posts)
64. One way to look at it.
Mon Oct 26, 2020, 04:55 PM
Oct 2020

Occam's Razor- Voters know the incumbent and if they aren't already supporting him or her for re-election there is a reason.

Who knows? I do know the crosstabs on the American Greatness poll don't match up with the lion's share of other polls.

Algernon Moncrieff

(5,790 posts)
66. I know Ras (who is famously in the tank for FAUX) is the only national poll with Trump up over Joe
Mon Oct 26, 2020, 05:01 PM
Oct 2020

The right is trying to spin the narrative that Trump is surging post-debate. The problem with that theory - many votes have already been cast.

On the other hand, everyone here would be horribly naive to believe that Trump can't win. We need to keep our foot on the accelerator until Joe and Kamala and the new Congress are sworn in.

DFW

(54,378 posts)
70. Why is it that Republicans so often prefer Soviet imagery?
Mon Oct 26, 2020, 05:25 PM
Oct 2020

The Buskirk article's use of a typical Lenin pose is supposed to be some kind of coincidence?


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