This Needs to Be Restated: I do not judge people by the religion they profess.

[MineralMan]

I judge religions by the people who profess them.

That is why I am an atheist.

[GeorgeGist]

1. Ironically, it was the Jesuits who taught me the basics ...

of critical thinking.

I too am an atheist.

[MineralMan]

2. Many different paths eventually lead to truth.

That's what I have discovered in my 75 years of existence.

[LuvNewcastle]

3. I've known several people who were taught at Jesuit schools,

and they were well-educated folks. I have respect for the Jesuits as educators, even though I disagree with many of their beliefs. And although Pope Francis needs to do a great deal more to improve the Catholic Church, as the first Jesuit Pope he has made some encouraging gestures toward tolerance for people who have long been despised and persecuted by the church. I hope the next pope is a Jesuit, too.

[Buckeyeblue]

4. Nicely stated. As I think about it, so do I.

I, too, am an atheist.

[Beringia]

5. I'm sure Jesus would tell you many who profess belief in him, have no idea what he taught

From a scene in Annie Hall, where Marshall McLuhan tells a professor he knows nothing about McLuhan's ideas





PROFESSOR We saw the Fellini film last Tuesday. It is not one of his best. It lacks a cohesive structure. You know, you get the feeling that he's not absolutely sure what it is he wants to say. 'Course, I've always felt he was essentially a-a technical film maker. Granted, La Strada was a great film. Great in its use of negative energy more than anything else. But that simple cohesive core ...

It's the influence of television. Yeah, now Marshall McLuhan deals with it in terms of it being a-a high, uh, high intensity, you understand? A hot medium ... as opposed to a ...

WOODY ALLEN What I wouldn't give for a large sock o' horse manure. What do you do when you get stuck in a movie line with a guy like this behind you? I mean, it's just maddening!

PROFESSOR Wait a minute, why can't I give my opinion? It's a free country

WOODY ALLEN I mean, Do you hafta give it so loud? I mean, aren't you ashamed to pontificate like that? And-and the funny part of it is, Marshall McLuhan, you don't know anything about Marshall McLuhan's work!

PROFESSOR Really? Really? I happen to teach a class at Columbia called "TV Media and Culture"! So I think that my insights into Mr. McLuhan-well, have a great deal of validity.

WOODY ALLEN Well, that's funny, because I happen to have Mr. McLuhan right here. So ... so, here, just let me-I mean, all right. Come over here ... a second.

Woody Allen gestures to the camera which follows him and the Professor who teaches course on McLuhan to the back of the crowded lobby. He moves over to a large stand-up movie poster and pulls Marshall McLuhan from behind the poster.

MCLUHAN (To the Professor who teaches course on McLuhan) I heard what you were saying. You know nothing of my work. You mean my whole fallacy is wrong. How you ever got to teach a course in anything is totally amazing.

WOODY ALLEN Boy, if life were only like this

[MineralMan]

6. Yes. I remember that scene vividly.

However, that was the last Woody Allen film I have watched. I began boycotting his movies after "Annie Hall." The basic plot of the film offended me, and his later behavior solidified my opinion of the man, talented as he was.

As I said, I'm fine with people professing whatever religion they can believe. However, I do judge religions based on the behavior of their followers. I'm most familiar with Christianity. I do not think most people who profess that religion pay much, if any, attention to its tenets. I fault the religion itself for that, due to its many, many inconsistencies.

[LAS14]

7. Your revealing your ignorance of the many admirable professors of faith who

consistently expressed it their whole lives.

All of our Democratic presidents. Joe Biden. Hillary Clinton. Martin Luther King. Jim Clyburn. Nancy Pelosi. And for every well known, morally outstanding Christian there are congregations full of people running homeless shelters, offering sanctuary to immigrants, marching for Black Lives Matter, etc., etc., etc., etc.

Please get yourself better educated. This is a ridiculous post.

[MineralMan]

8. No doubt there are many who profess a religion who

are fine people. Any religion. Or no religion at all. As I said, I do not judge people based on their professions of faith. I judge the religions, based on the mass of their followers.

You know nothing of my education, and don't appear to be reading my actual words, to boot.

Good day to you.

[The Magistrate]

17. The Attempt at Recruiting a Mob against You, Sir, Is Not Going Well....

https://www.democraticunderground.com/12222657


"We are expected to respect the other fellow's religion, but only insomuch as we respect his belief his wife is beautiful and his children bright."

[MineralMan]

18. Thank you, Sir, for sharing that link.

It is very informative, indeed. It is not the first time I have been called out on DU by someone posting in a separate group. Nor, I imagine, will it be the last.

I would not have known of the attempt, though, without your assistance, for which I am grateful.

[The Magistrate]

20. It's An Old Moderator Habit, Sir

Back when the 'group' areas were first set up, it was a violation to use the safe havens for rallying troops against a foe. So that leapt out when I came on the Latest page and it was on top.

[MineralMan]

21. I'm never really bothered by such attempts to stir up

animosities. Usually, though, I am unaware of them. More often than not, they take place on some other Internet site. I am heartened, though, by the poor response the request for people to come and gang up on me here received.

[uriel1972]

9. Oh please, give it a rest...

Yes there are good religious people, nothing in Mineralman's post says otherwise. However, there os nothing about religion that makes a good person good.

We all determine what is right or wrong ourselves. Thst some then project it onto their chosen faith is problematic in that once you decide your deity said it is so it's hard to shift your outlook as you learn more about the world.

[Hoyt]

12. No question that the community related activities of churches are usually worthwhile.

It's when they start promoting the white wing version of morality and the White Jesus that I have an issue.

[Mariana]

16. The fact that one religion can inspire beliefs and behavior that are so different

among its adherents doesn't make the religion look any better. It's as if good, loving people act like good, loving people, and bad hateful people act like bad hateful people, and their religion or lack of it is completely irrelevant.

[MineralMan]

19. I am informed, below, that you sought allies in another part of DU

for your disagreement with my post. How interesting. Very revealing.

[Mariana]

22. Fascinating.

Of the participants in that thread The Magistrate so kindly pointed out, I wonder by whose behavior we should judge the religion? That of its OP, or that of the respondents who declined the invitation to brigade this thread?

[MineralMan]

29. That is an excellent question.

While individuals can be judged according to their individual behavior, one must take a longer view when judging organizations of long standing. Judgment of individuals is temporal, while judgment of religions must be historical in nature, it seems to me.

Of course what qualifies as a religion can be difficult to define. Christianity, for example has thousands of splintered denominations, which themselves contain thousands of individual preachers and congregations. Again, each of those splinter groups can be examined individually, but the overall religion must be judged on a much broader level.

Distilling all that down into two phrases is not a simple task. I made an attempt to do that, which is not understood by everyone.

[robbob]

26. Dude! (Dude-ess?); MM is basically paraphrasing the gospel

From Mathew:

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruit. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

If (IF) I’m reading the OP correctly he is saying he judges religions by the kind of followers they attract, and by extension the deeds they do (=the fruit it bears). I think you owe MM an apology.

[Mme. Defarge]

10. By this standard

only non-sinners need apply.

[MineralMan]

14. I did not say that, nor did I imply it.

Religions have sponsored atrocities throughout human history. No doubt there are individuals who take wise counsel from the religions they profess. All religions offer some wise counsel. So does non-religious philosophy. Such wise counsel is pretty much the same, regardless of the religion or philosophy.

It is individuals who behave as they do. Religions are not the reason for humans to behave either well or badly. Not at all.

On the other hand, religions have historically sponsored some of the most horrible atrocities in history. Where I grew up, The Spanish Catholic Priests sponsored genocide against the aboriginal people living in many parts of the world, including in California, my home state.

Religions have sponsored slavery, genocide, intolerance, and other evils in every culture and in every place. The Old Testament, for example is full of tales and celebrations of genocide. Its very deity is said to have destroyed all human life on the planet, save one family. What an example, eh?

Individual people everywhere, and of every faith and of no faith, are capable of behaving in positive ways toward their fellow humans. However, that behavior is in no way necessarily related to the religions or social philosophies they profess.

I do not judge individuals based on their religious professions. I judge religions based on what they sponsor. I thought I stated that very clearly and concisely.

[marie999]

11. I am a deist.

[MineralMan]

15. OK. I am a universal disbeliever in all deities and other supernatural things.

[marie999]

32. I am fine with everyone who doesn't have a religion

or has a religion but doesn't think others have to follow it.

[Goodheart]

13. Why not? I judge them both. I judge EVERYTHING.

That is why I am an atheist.

[phylny]

23. Just curious - why did it need to be restated?

[MineralMan]

27. Because I thought it was a good time to restate it.

We are in a period of time where people are trying to use their religious beliefs to justify some very, very bad behavior.

[Silent3]

24. Depends if you're talking about judging character or intelligence

There are certainly very nice, kind people who nevertheless profess to some pretty crazy beliefs. It's their thinking skills that I judge.

Then there are people who might personally behave well, but profess to beliefs that support terrible mistreatment of others. I consider those people guilty of enabling that mistreatment.

If you have a religion that teaches kind values, but has a lot of rotten people as members, what I'd judge is the efficacy of the teachings, not their morality.

And, of course, there are some pretty nasty atheists. I'm an atheist who's got enough anger inside me at times that I have to wonder if I'm a very good person.

[MineralMan]

30. Since I feel incompetent to judge any individual's character or intelligence,

I must resort to making judgments based on behavior when it comes to individual persons. I can neither read minds nor see beyond the time that I am observing someone. So, it is behavior that I judge. If that behavior changes, my judgment will also change of that individual.

Institutions, too, have behaviors, but they occur over long periods of time and can be observed from a historical perspective.

The two things are very different.

[LanternWaste]

25. Much as I judge political message boards by who has posted on them... past and present.

I mean, since we're making arbitrary judgements and all...

That is why I'm a Democrat.

[MineralMan]

28. ..

[Klaralven]

31. So you never met a Hare Krishna in the airport?

[MineralMan]

33. But I have. Several times. They used to frequent LAX in numbers.

I had a nice conversation with a young Hare Krishna woman one time when I was flying to New York and had a lot of time before my flight. Sadly for her, though, I wasn't going to become an adherent. She did her best, though, to try to convince me. It was a fun way to pass the time.