General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsShould we move away from immigration....
as a major part of our party platform?
We just ran against a guy who called hispanic immigrants murders and rapists, railed about "caravans". Rounded up peoples relatives and deported them at a huge rate (including some citizens). Locked kids in cages in places with rampant disease and abuse. Effectively orphaned 500 kids. Attacked "Dreamers". Split up families....
I actually can't even keep up with everything he's done but he spent the past 5 years demonizing immigrants.......and apparently it was such a great message that he made serious inroads with Hispanic voters with that message. There's a really good chance we would have won TX and Florida had the Hispanic vote that Clinton got stayed with us.
So, convince me why we should keep this as an issue when it is clearly not helping us.
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comradebillyboy
(10,178 posts)
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)because it's the right thing to do.
Sid
BGBD
(3,282 posts)I'm not interesting on finding a hill to die on. I'd rather take and hold power long enough to actually get things done.
JonLP24
(29,322 posts)Biden didn't distance himself from Obama.....so Hispanics voted for a guy that openly demonized them.
Cool.
JonLP24
(29,322 posts)Joe Biden tells activist, 'You should vote for Trump,' over criticism of Obama deportations
Biden responded, "No. I will not stop all deportations. I will prioritize deportations, only people who have committed a felony or serious crime."
The activist, identified by a CNN reporter as Carlos Rojas, later continued by telling Biden he had volunteered for former President Barack Obama's campaign in 2008, but was disheartened by the number of deportations during his presidency.
"The fact is that over those eight years, there were 3 million people that were deported and separated from their families," Rojas said.
Cutting Rojas off, Biden said, "You should vote for Trump. You should vote for Trump."
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2019/11/22/joe-biden-tells-immigration-activist-you-should-vote-trump/4273814002/
BGBD
(3,282 posts)Who's policies would have been better for Hispanics in the Rio Grande Valley or southern Florida?
Biden's or Trump's?
LeftInTX
(25,607 posts)Those votes were for Hillary in 2016
JI7
(89,279 posts)and would have won bigger if we had a ground campaign like they did but we weren't going to risk lives .
BGBD
(3,282 posts)which is obviously great.....but we are going to have to pull out two senate races in GA to take control of the Senate and we lost some ground in the House.
Clearly we have some message problems to sort out before 2022, because we aren't going to have Trump to run against anymore.
JI7
(89,279 posts)BGBD
(3,282 posts)but we need to make some inroads into rural America. Joe was able to make those marginal improvements across the board, but other democrats were not able to and that's the difference. It's why he outperformed senate candidates in a lot of places.
I don't think we should take this win as an endorsement of our party, we need to find a way to build on what Joe did in rural areas and expand on it.
blogslut
(38,019 posts)
Autumn
(45,120 posts)Do we only do the right thing when it's convenient for us?
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)Conservatives don't want more immigrants. It's a much bigger issue for them than for us. They aren't going to budge. We have to stop shaming them about it and figuring out a solution.
JonLP24
(29,322 posts)We need immigration reform because the system is a mess.
Amishman
(5,559 posts)There needs to be a better path to citizenship, but not a blanket amnesty. Also big penalties and much stricter enforcement towards companies exploiting the undocumented.
H1B visa program needs to be reformed, it is currently badly abused. I like the idea of indexing the number of work visas available to the US unemployment rate. Higher unemployment, fewer visas offered. Most of these are high tech jobs that we should be trying to fill ourselves, and based on my experience working in software development, many of these positions could have been filled without using an H1B.
Increased border security but combined with much more humane treatment of those detained. Also the wall is stupid, but cameras and drones to allow higher interceptions.
An aspect to consider is the labor economics angle. Job automation is accelerating, we are going to have to transition a significant portion of our current low skill workforce to high skill jobs.
BusyBeingBest
(8,059 posts)I don't think the particular voting habits of Latino Americans in various states should dictate how we as a nation deal with it. I think we should develop/continue common-sense immigration and asylum policies, treat immigrants fairly and humanely, and allow paths to citizenship.
PirateRo
(933 posts)Republicans? White suprematists?
We help immigrants because it’s the right thing to do. We help immigrants because we skim the cream of contributors from other countries and reward them for their performance here that helps move us all forward.
It’s a big tent and one to grow. All are welcome, the more diverse your view, the better.
Yes, we help immigrants because it helps us and them.
Klaralven
(7,510 posts)A path to citizenship for undocumented immigrants should be supported, along with support for implementing strict border controls to stop further illegal immigration and/or refugee arrivals.
Advocating future illegal immigration and entry of large numbers of refugees is a losing political position.
JonLP24
(29,322 posts)Speaking as a Biden voter in Arizona.
If the West doesn't want refugees they shouldn't create them.
This is the point I'm making.
We let ourselves get pulled into a position where we could be labeled as the "open borders" party and we need to drop that.
JI7
(89,279 posts)undocumented people risk their lives to come here. If we can help improve things in the country they come from than it would stop by itself. But many of these people are trying to save their lives by coming here.
Klaralven
(7,510 posts)and 10s of million living with exploitation by criminals or others in dysfunctional societies.
As populations rise by another 2500 million in the next decades, as hydrocarbon energy sources exhaust or become outlawed due to global warming, as agricultural land becomes worn out or built on, and as social stresses continue to build globally, they can't all come here.
The US is fortunate in having enough agricultural land to feed itself, enough forest to house itself, and enough fiber to clothe itself for the next century even with global warming. Much of the world is not so fortunate.
treestar
(82,383 posts)they can improve ours. The idea that each immigrant is a net loss to some native born is what is wrong. We need to change the laws to allow more people to come legally. To match those who come. There's an open quota for geniuses, but we really need working class families. It's not true necessarily that those at the top create jobs magically. It's those lower on the scale who spend the money on geniuses' ideas.
We can make it a matter of pride that when people want to better themselves, they come here.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)
Ms. Toad
(34,117 posts)Abortion?
Access to health care?
Condemnation of racism?
Gay rights?
I don't choose what i care about by results at the ballot box, and not interested in being part of a party that abandons core values to chase votes.
BGBD
(3,282 posts)because things like "open borders" have caused every issue you just listed to be set back decades because of Trump getting 3 SCOTUS seats.
Ms. Toad
(34,117 posts)I think you're in the wrong forum, if getting votes detainees your values.
BGBD
(3,282 posts)to say that there should be immigration laws and that they should be enforced.....unless you are calling Obama a racist?
Ms. Toad
(34,117 posts)But yes, Obama's immigration policy stank.
Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #20)
Post removed
Ms. Toad
(34,117 posts)And I've never said that to anyone before in my life. in person, or online.
We don't. And my 39 year marriage is on the line in this election, and even if Biden is elected, it may not survive - since Barrett seems to be inclined to reverse Obergefell. Until 4 months ago it would have been perfectly legal for my employer to fire me because of who I am married to. My spouse was expressly denied a legal relationship with our daughter until she was 25 because our marriage was not recognized. Fortunately, our state recognizes common-law marriages - because if I didn't, I would be denied access to social security benefits based on my spouse's SS, since our marriage would not have a long enough duration to grant me benefits, should she die.
Not to mention that violence against members of the LGBT community, especially against trans women of color, is similar in prevalence to violence against black men by law enforcement.
So, yeah, fuck you for not caring enough to recognize your own ignorance.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)
Sid
Ms. Toad
(34,117 posts)Not only is my marriage on the line, but so is my daughter's life - since she has no means to pay her $200,000 annual medical bill if the ACA is declared invalid and we cannot replace it with anything because the republicans retained control of control the senate.
BGBD
(3,282 posts)we have an opposition party that wants to do some pretty terrible things to people, like take away their healthcare and dictate who they can love. We are fighting these people and somewhere along the line decided it was a great idea to hand them a cudgel to beat up about the head with every election.
We should stake out the clear centrist policy on immigration. Work to make the process better while enforcing laws on the books. Dreamers should be the only protected group while legislation is crafted to legalize them.
Ms. Toad
(34,117 posts)more palatable to the Republicans?
I think none.
Should I abandon my trans friends because the other side they use my trans friends as a cudgel to beat us up with? How about women who want access to abortions?
I've already had my marriage used to elect Bush, because Democrats decided my marriage was too controversial to support. I am not playing that game with anyone else's life - even if they were unlucky enough to be born in some other country. People are not disposable, and the minute we start acting as if they are we are no better than the Republicans.
canetoad
(17,197 posts)Your ideas are your own.
If they don’t care about their own people, then the Democrats don’t need to go out of their way to do anything.
1) We actually care about people.
2) Immigrants are not only Hispanics. Most of us non-latino immigrants vote Democratic.
3) Tone-deaf statements like these are part of the reason liars like Trump are able to convince immigrants and minorities that Democrats do not care about them.
BGBD
(3,282 posts)immigrants are. Yes, people overstaying visas are a big source as well, but those are really "undocumented" immigrants either.
My point isn't to stop supporting immigration, it's to stop trying to defend illegal immigration. We can do that without using the draconian methods Trump championed.
Sunsky
(1,737 posts)People like strength. We should stand up for what we believe in and defend our principles. We should not change our ways because of what Trump did or what Trump said. If we do that, then what do we really stand for? We cannot abandon the Dreamers. It would make us look weak and untrustworthy. Joe will not abandon the Dreamers.
are a pretty special case, and they aren't undocumented either.
Illegal immigration is one of the things they are going to use to try to prevent universal healthcare in the US.
We can support immigration through all of the proper channels, work on legislation to make it easier to immigrate legally, protect Dreamers, and streamline asylum claims at the border. At the same time we can enforce the laws that exist.
Sunsky
(1,737 posts)Sounds like right-wing framing to me. We want to give the people who are already here a chance to come out of hiding and be able to live, support their families, and not to be taken advantage of. Sensible and humane immigration reform is our platform. What you are suggesting the Democrats do, is already what they have been doing. Look at the deportation rate under President Obama.
BGBD
(3,282 posts)And yeah, Obama had essentially the policy I said. I also recall Joe Biden getting raked over the coals for being a part of it during the primary. Infact, Biden's rejection of the policies people in the primary were pushing probably was a big part of what got him elected now.
As within any group, there will be a difference of opinion on certain issues but the Democratic party platform does not "support illegal immigration", rendering this back and forth much ado about nothing. The platform of the Democratic party is more in line with the Obama administration's immigration policies. In the debates the candidates were presenting their ideas on how to reform the immigration system, none of those were from an official standpoint, and the voters made their choice. This is the whole point of a debate.
BGBD
(3,282 posts)have set the official policy....
But that doesn't really matter if major members of the party are arguing that we shouldn't deport people who we find here illegally.
If you aren't willing to use deportations, then you aren't willing to enforce immigration laws.
You seem to have an immigration axe to grind and this is getting redundant, so, I'll move on from this now. But I'll say this, being humane is not a problem. There are millions of undocumented immigrants and many are living in terrible conditions because they have to stay under the radar. Some are here for many years and have children and grandchildren living in the United States. We cannot just throw them out. There has to be a sensible and humane approach to immigration reform and also secure our borders, that is our platform.
If the Democratic party starts to resemble the Republican party on immigration, we will lose a lot of black voters. Black immigrants will turn away from the party. Democrats are not xenophobic.
Backseat Driver
(4,400 posts)less expensive path to citizenship. Those that are "found out" or self-reported to have previously entered illegally should acknowledge a misdemeanor charge without a monetary penalty, except levy a fine on those that used ID theft or forged permanent American documents like an SS card and/or fraudulent immigration status; after all, this is a sort of plea deal; Employer, if any, will be notified and/or audited for their own legal conduct with consequences of their own behavior under the rule of law. Compliance of the path at that point and passing a naturalization course within the realistic time period will clear their record; a fresh legal start. Non-compliance; no clearance. Dreamers should be be eligible for citizenship immediately upon taking the exam, given often, without penalty. All should have access to free digital citizenship classes on-line, at school, and at libraries and some American necessary life skills, report a valid address, and valid health/vaccine records, after all, they will be on a special type of probation until tested. Photo ID and/or driver's licenses can be issued upon application and/or taking the steps to take the usual driver examination or steps for a learner's permit; a maximum of two reported resident/address changes per year at cost will be permissible prior to naturalization testing; normal expirations and/or Real ID or American Passport for air travel will then apply as necessary. I'm sure this is simplistic in scope; every state or territory will need to provide adequate facilities and personnel to meet possible demand.
Secondly, climate change is a huge global issue, and we need to re-engage with the Paris Agreement partners to be ready to accept what could be masses of "climate and/or storm refugees" should the Mother Nature's or mankind's SHTF.
qdouble
(891 posts)Republicans are going to demonize and lie regardless.
Polybius
(15,507 posts)Call for a ban on property taxes for those making under $200,000 a year, and no taxes on all used items. That will get tons of Republican votes.
Celerity
(43,589 posts)the delicate constitutions of Lincoln Project-targeted white 'moderate' Republican soccer moms in Laguna Beach? Global climate change measures because it might make their vehicle-adjusted petrol tax for their 150,000 USD Range Rover go up a wee bit?
Raine
(30,541 posts)just as the repubs have always said.
If you have policies that are meant to support specific communities, and those communities decide they like the other party better anyway...why stick with it?
Brother Mythos
(1,442 posts)doing for those of us who legally live and vote here?! If there is some great benefit to ME out there from our current policy, I'm not seeing it.
This week we almost became a banana republic (The election still isn't settled as of this posting, and there's still a very, very small chance that this could still happen.) And, this is happening because a considerable portion of our voting population disagrees with our current immigration policy. As someone else here has already posted, this is not a hill I'm willing to die on.
Now then, I certainly do want to see the "Dreamers" become citizens, but that's, pretty much, the end of the line for me.
Lastly, I vote Democratic in spite of our current immigration policy, not because of it.
NO
Blasphemer
(3,261 posts)What else should we abandon to pander to intolerance? Racial justice? Gay rights? Abortion? The immigration debate is nothing more than the latest incarnation of racist settler colonialism supporting White Christian supremacy. My mother worked her ass off trying to convince her friends to vote for Biden. Many did not. These "legal" immigrants were scared to vote. They are scared to be part of the system. They are scared of exposure of their undocumented relatives. The anti-immigrant bashing is keeping eligible democrats from voting. What we need is not to abandon the immigration issue, but to work to counter the fear the anti-immigration narrative has engendered. That means embracing tolerance and complete enfranchisement and inclusion of immigrants.
grantcart
(53,061 posts)
Skittles
(153,224 posts)
qanda
(10,422 posts)Lose your soul to gain the world (more power). If this is what we decide to do then I'm out. 😡
bdamomma
(63,931 posts)Immigration policy needs cleaning up too.
NickB79
(19,276 posts)Bigger than any seen in human history. The migrant caravans were our first taste, ruined Central American farmers who's crops were wiped out year after year.
Syria's civil war and subsequent migrant wave to Europe were kicked off by the worst drought in 1000 yr.
In both cases, their arrival fueled the right, here and in Europe. And I just don't see us changing back to the nation we used to be, accepting boatloads of immigrants.
I think you're right, sadly. When millions of desperate people start knocking at our door, the majority of Americans will say "go away." And politicians who try to invoke America's immigrant friendly past will not win.
treestar
(82,383 posts)they can be conservative. When they got theirs, they act just the same as white people. White people aren't essentially evil, they are just human, as POC are not automatically noble, they can be willing to close the door to others when they got theirs, too.
What we need is to reactivate patriotic pride in the fact that immigrants want to come here, and acknowledge that they help the economy, not hurt it. They help us economically, they are not a drain, we don't "pay for them" to live here, they help grow the economy, each immigrant it not a net loss to some citizen.
We could try presenting it as something to be proud of, support making legal immigration easier for those who want to come, rather than having open quotas for those at the top who will not be as loyal and will be able to go anywhere in the world and be a success - how easy it is for a genius to get a green card and then abandon it for a great job in the EU or Canada. When someone who works in the fields would truly be grateful, like our ancestors were, and want to become a citizen.
I think we are afraid to do that. And we count too much in "the Hispanic" vote which is now clearly, not a monolith of immigrant supporters.
ck4829
(35,094 posts)Those two issues create more refugees and emigrants than anything else.
Arazi
(6,829 posts)Then a path to citizenship for parents of American children born here.
Start slow. Start with the popular parts. Create a realistic plan for a smart border control system.
Immigration doesn't have to be toxic
Codeine
(25,586 posts)We didn’t absolutely dominate a voting block (we won the Hispanic vote convincingly, just not totally) so we abandon them?
What a revolting and amoral position. I’m embarrassed for you.
sinkingfeeling
(51,482 posts)