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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsMcConnell is in a far weaker position than most people realize
There is at least a 25% chance that the Democrats will take control of the Senate in 2021, if boh Orsoff and Warnock win, and as much as the GOP is spending in Trump's frivolous lawsuits, this is going to keep spending to support the GOP Georgian candidates down considerably. However, there is a 50% chance that at least one of the two candidates will be elected. At that point, the new Senate is 49/51 Dem/GOP. Worse-case scenario, the Dems are down two.
A lot of people are worried that McConnell will be obstructionist, but the reality in the second scenario is that he can't. He cannot afford a single defection in the ranks. He can't give Collins or Murkowski a "vote in conscience" without losing votes, and the chances that he can retain the fillibuster are now slim. He's also going to have to worry about someone in the GOP ranks choosing to caucus with the Democrats if crossed too many times.
What this means is that for the first time in a while, the GOP is going to have to do something they collectively hate - they are going to have to compromise in the Senate. Also keep in mind that Romney is waiting in the wings. He may end up going for the Presidency in 2024, but he may also decide that he may want to be Senate Majority Leader instead. I don't like Romney, but I think he is far more likely to build a moderate caucus in the process to undermine McConnell, and I think of the two, he is the more principled.
So, while not ideal for the Democrats, I don't think the situation is near as bad as some have portrayed it.
I_UndergroundPanther
(12,462 posts)We'll get lucky and McConnell will have a heart attack,catch covid or trip up some stairs crack his head and go into a coma.
I hate that turtlepigshitfacedasshole..
Boogiemack
(1,406 posts)Frasier Balzov
(2,639 posts)That remains in a 49/51 world.
tritsofme
(17,369 posts)There is 0% chance that filibuster rules are changing next year, even if we sweep Georgia, as Manchin has shut the door on that.
That means aside from nominees, it will take 60 votes to move anything of substance through the Senate whether we are in the minority or majority. Taking back the majority is so important, because without it, Biden wont even get his team.
Celerity
(43,084 posts)Last edited Fri Nov 20, 2020, 04:54 AM - Edit history (1)
seats in the GA run-off (for this example I will agree to use 25%) does not mean that there is thus a 50% chance of winning one. Probability calculations do not work like that with correlated (and some independent) variables.
Also, the filibuster is going nowhere and requires 60 votes to end. McTurtle will use it as a sledgehammer if we actually do get to 50-50, and even if he has a 52-48 majority but some Rethugs break lines.
mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)Coin flip.
Thus, the 4 equally likely possible outcomes are:
D-D
D-R
R-D
R-R
Thus, winning (exactly) 1 has a 50% chance (2/4).
But winning at LEAST 1 ... has a 75% chance (3/4).
Now, if you think either or both of the two has a value different than a 50% chance (not a coin flip), that changes the calculations.
Celerity
(43,084 posts)There are too many correlated variables to make the claim that is being made.
mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)because you are then fundamentally arguing that you don't have a coin-flip situation.
They're either both right or both wrong.
Celerity
(43,084 posts)are not twice as likely as winning two. Both our candidates are on the same ballot. There will be very little ticket splitting as to ticket split does the same as voting straight Rethug, ie. it leaves them in control of the Senate.
The only remotely possible scanarios aiding the chances of us winning just one would be the ultra rare cases where a Dem voter is so racist that they vote for Ossoff but would rather give Senate control to the Rethugs than vote for a black man (who is running against a proven (in all but a court of law) criminal grifter as well.), OR a person of colour (almost certianly they would be black) coming out to vote for Warnock but then saying 'Naw, I will pass on the white guy.' (again knowing full well that that decision means the racist Rethugs maintain Senate control.)
mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)But didn't accept that it would then follow that there's a 50% chance of winning exactly 1.
Both those number derive from 'coin flip odds'. So if you deny that it's a coin flip scenario (and I agree that it's not) then you'd logically reject both the 25% and the 50% numbers.
That's all I was getting at
unblock
(52,116 posts)The probability we win race y times the probability we win race z is 25%.
One possibility is each race is 50%. In that case, it's 50% to win exactly one race (25% win y lose z, plus 25% win z lose y).
Another possibility is one race is 25% and the other is 100%. In that case, it's 75% to win exactly one race (when we lose the 25% race).
There are many possibilities in between.
In all cases, the probability of winning exactly one of the races is at least 50% to win.
All this assumes the variables are independent. If the variables are correlated, it becomes less likely to have a split decision. If they're are perfectly correlated, the the probability of winning exactly one race becomes zero.
Celerity
(43,084 posts)less chance that we pull one seat verus both or none. That is my whole point. To say the outcome of a split is literally TWICE as likely as either winning 2 or none is simply wrong.
unblock
(52,116 posts)Of course, now the whole subthread looks silly though
Cheers!
kurtcagle
(1,601 posts)25%/50%/25% just represents the odds of two likely close races happening has these as minima.
Yes, you are right, of course - the races are highly correlated. I suspect that most people will either vote for both or against both, independent of the actual merits of the candidates, and I'd be hard-pressed to give a good estimate, though I'd favor the Democrats winning both by 1-1.5% over the Republicans, and with paper ballots (which I believe are being used) I'd actually push it up to about 2.5%, but I don't think it's going to be a blowout either way.
I also find that the Georgia SOS actually seems to have some integrity. That gives me more confidence that the vote will likely be legitimate, and likely in our favor.
Celerity
(43,084 posts)Rstrstx
(1,399 posts)The party with the more motivated base will likely win both seats, though there may be a slight degree of ticket splitting. Right now Id take a split, however unlikely, as that means wed only have to net one more seat in 22 (assuming we dont get a Doug Jones-style miracle. How is old Chucky doing by the way?). It would also be easier to sway just one senator like Collins to change their affiliation to Independent if McConnell becomes obstructionist in the extreme. Even just the threat of such a scenario may give him pause (for once one of her sternly worded letters of concern may actually accomplish something).
unblock
(52,116 posts)Assuming each race is an independent coin toss, 25% chance we win both, 25% chance we lose both, 50% chance we win one and lose the other.
Of course, we may be a bit over or under 50% on one race of the other. More important, the two races probably are actually not very independent. Most people will be voting straight party line, even more than usual in senate races because party control is on the line.
So I expect the all or nothing outcomes to be more likely than the split decisions.
mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)See directly above
Celerity
(43,084 posts)unblock
(52,116 posts)You said "Probability calculations do not work like that with two independent variables."
But yes, they do. In other posts it's clear you believe the variables are highly correlated, which certainly makes sense in this case, and which certainly would change the math. So I agree with everything you said, we just would have gotten there faster if you had added that assumption originally.
All that said, if the probabilities are indeed highly correlated, I would hope that our probability of winning both seats are rather more than 25%....
Celerity
(43,084 posts)I apologise for the confusion, I do not often post whilst on the tunnelbana (subway).
unblock
(52,116 posts)I was guessing uk, but now apparently Stockholm?
Celerity
(43,084 posts)both accounts, lol).
cheers
meadowlander
(4,387 posts)so the odds are much greater that one party will win both seats than that there will be a split. It comes down to whether more Democrats turn out (flipping two seats) or more Republicans turn out (retaining two).
Celerity
(43,084 posts)Ticket splitting is nor only highly unlikely anyway, but even more so as the outcome of doing so (Rethuhs maintain Senate control) same as voting straight Rethug.
In reply 15 I laid out the only two (ultra unlikely) scenarios as to why a Dem would ticket split (there are none for a Rethug, barring mental illness or some personal grudge lol) and both are crazy.
True Blue American
(17,981 posts)Wants to be Leader. I think he would win. Even John Cornyn is speaking out. They do not like being simply the party of no.
Rstrstx
(1,399 posts)Blue Owl
(50,256 posts)a horrid, gruesome death; shrieking as he descends into the demonic hell of his own making... with not one drop of mercy spared for his God-forsaken soul as it is ripped into shreds and burned in the pit of fire and brimstone...
mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)Pretty much always
SunSeeker
(51,508 posts)Indykatie
(3,695 posts)That's the price Repubs have paid for evolving into a party where more than 70% are right wing nut jobs. His only chance would be if the RWNJ vote is split 3 or 4 ways throughout the primary.
Mike Nelson
(9,943 posts)... there will be a group of Republicans, around three and led by probably Romney... they will meet with Joe Manchin and Biden's team, I hope. Moscow Mitch will find himself overruled, hopefully. He can either get with the program, or retire. Personally, I would "shut him out" and give him the message he should retire.