What Consenting Adults Do In Private Is Their Own Business. Period.

[Yavin4]

If the activity involves violent coercion, or non-violent coercion, or under age children, or human trafficking, then the activity is both illegal and immoral, and it should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Outside of that, whatever consenting adults do in private is their own business. Period. You and/or I may disapprove of it, frown upon it, and not want our kids to do it when they become adults, but as long as it is consenting adults, it's none of our business. NONE.

Be very careful of allowing people to regulate your private behavior. Sooner or later, what you believe may be innocuous, they will see it as a threat to the health of society.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

1. Thank you.

I don't know what all has been said in the various sex threads of the last few days...I saw some, and I am under the impression that things got heated in some of the threads I didn't see. But yes, behind closed doors, consenting adults can have whatever sort of consensual sex they want.

[Shrek]

2. What about cruelty to animals?

Is that okay, if done privately by adults and with the consent of all participants?

[Yavin4]

5. Animals Cannot Give Consent

Therefore, it's illegal.

[Shrek]

8. I'm not sure how that's relevant to your post

Outside of that, whatever consenting adults do in private is their own business. Period. You and/or I may disapprove of it, frown upon it, and not want our kids to do it when they become adults, but as long as it is consenting adults, it's none of our business. NONE.

How does the non-consent of animal victims apply here?

[Yavin4]

11. Animals Cannot Give Consent

Thus, it is illegal.

[Shrek]

14. Sure, I'm not disputing that at all.

But your post explictly says that "whatever consenting adults do in private is their own business. Period."

That's a categorical statement that renders irrelevant any consideration of legality.

(From reading the other replies, I get the feeling there must be some context that I'm missing. Sorry for not being up to speed.)

[jeff47]

71. Because the animal can not consent, it is not legal. Even if the adults do consent.

Because a minor can not consent, abusing them is not legal. Even if all the adults do consent.
Because a coerced adult can not consent, abusing them is not legal. Even if all the other adults do consent.

[sabrina 1]

80. I think the OP was referring to mutual agreement by two human beings.

I didn't read it as two human beings agreeing to commit a crime together, by mutual consent. That is a crime whether it is in one's home or not.

[Matariki]

83. Yavin4 has clearly answered your 'question' a number of times now.

It kind of looks as if you're trying to start a fight by nitpicking words.

[Posteritatis]

99. You seem to be actively striving to miss the OP's point. (nt)

[Warren DeMontague]

150. Because no one ever wants to argue the actual point, they need to drag in non-consent & non-adults

every fucking time.

[Jamastiene]

110. if the post read:

"whatever consenting adults do with each other in private is their own business. Period."

would you still ask the same question?

The OP didn't mention children and animals. The OP explicitly mentioned consenting adults.

I don't see how you made the jump to animals.

[Puregonzo1188]

156. An animal is not a consenting adult.

[yardwork]

134. The OP didn't bring up animals. You did. The OP has made their position clear.

[LanternWaste]

139. Therefore, the flushing a goldfish down the toilet is illegal also?

"Cannot Give Consent Therefore, it's illegal...."


Therefore, the flushing a goldfish down the toilet is illegal also?
(I imagine many, many more qualifiers are needed to make a statement as absolutist as yours...)

[MicaelS]

6. Bad analogy..

Cruelty to animal is against the law.

What private sexual behavior between consenting adults do you believe should be against the law?

[Shrek]

10. None n/t

[phleshdef]

7. I think its painfully obvious from the OP that anything like that it unacceptable.

I'm not even sure why you thought you had to ask.

[slutticus]

115. Wow!

Talk about a box turtle moment!

[Angry Dragon]

3. The Missionary position is the only

federally allowed position
everything else is a sin

[Yavin4]

12. You Forgot That The Lights Have To Be Off

and eyes have to be closed.

[Angry Dragon]

52. if the lights are turned off then the

republicans can not look in the windows to make sure no one is cheating

[The Genealogist]

77. Night vision goggles?

The government could hand them out to "concerned citizens" who do voluntary "morality checks" on random houses!

[Angry Dragon]

91. As they do their armed patrol of the neighborhoods??

[The Genealogist]

109. Sure!

The Republicans who would set up a Smut Patrol made up of "concerned citizens" would also want to arm those concerned ones, especially as they go into "certain neighborhoods" where folks might get "uppity."

[Jamastiene]

111. What do you think the original purpose of drones was?

I'd be willing to bet there is at least a high possibility that drones have been secretly used for that purpose.

[MicaelS]

4. Agree 100%...

Of course a certain mindset never tires of lecturing other people on their private behavior.

[Yavin4]

9. You Should Check out Ken Burns' Documentary on Prohibition

The Prohibitionist is always on a crusade to save society when in reality they make society far more corrupt, far more violent, and far worse than before.

Yes, the human impulses that bring harm and damage to other humans need to be prosecuted to the fulles extent of the law, but the human impulse to get drunk, to get high, to have sex with a same sex partner, or to have sex with another consenting adult are all normal impulses and should not be made illegal.

[MicaelS]

23. Recorded it on Tivo...plus I bought the book

By the main advisor to the series, Daniel Okrent.

Last Call: The Rise and Fall of Prohibition

http://www.amazon.com/Last-Call-Rise-Fall-Prohibition/dp/0743277023/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1326226324&sr=8-1

What was most amazing is just how many disparate people were in favor of Prohibition.

[woo me with science]

13. There, that was nice and simple. :)

K&R

[Whisp]

15. I haven't heard anyone say otherwise

I think where the fog appears is in the interpretation of what 'consent' is in respect to prostitution and pornography. Many women (last stat I heard here up in Canada is as much as 75%, that is a mind boggling large number that should make anyone think even just a little bit) who work in the sex trade have been abused as children, sexually and otherwise abused by those that are close to them and should be protecting them, not raping them. These women aren't really fully consenting, I think that is where all the misunderstanding comes in.

[Yavin4]

21. If Someone Was Abused As A Child, Then We Should Get them The Help That They Need

Making prostitution illegal does not help them in any way.

[Whisp]

36. I'm not talking about that.

but can a woman be said to give full consent when her life has been ruined by abuse in her early years, where her judgement of what her self worth is is so skewed she doesn't really care about abuse because that is all she has known. If a guy visits a prostiitute who has suffered this, does it make any difference to him, should it?

[Yavin4]

65. "but can a woman be said to give full consent when her life has been ruined by abuse"

Then, what you're saying extends beyond prostitution, correct? How can she ever give consent? How can she consent to a non-commercial sexual relationship?

If someone is emotionally damaged by sexual abuse, then we should get them the mental health that they need.

[Whisp]

79. I'll repost this here:

What I am asking here of DUers

who shout out quite loudly to 'stay the hell out of my private privates in my private bedroom, prudes!'

Would your definition of 'consent' still be the same now that you know so many women sex workers are victims of child sexual abuse and may have a distorted idea of what human sexuality is. Should these women be looked upon as humans first and not just as vessels for masturbation?

--
Mental health care is surely needed, and support from all of us in whatever way we can. I'm not talking about individual cases of women here so much as to how men percieve them and whether their definition of consent changes in any way. Repeating myself, but I do that a lot. Everyone here does that a lot

[jeff47]

92. First, you've yet to back up your stat.

So no, we don't know how many are victims of abuse. Mostly because reliable statistics are impossible to find.

Second, no it doesn't change. The woman is an adult now. That means she gets to consent. We don't get to decide for her.

[Whisp]

95. it is not 'my' stat

if you are really interested you can find the numbers easily enough. Whether they up a bit or down a bit does not take away my question of interpretations of the word 'consent', which so far has been avoided.

W: What colour is the sky, jeff47?
j: Pennsylvania

[jeff47]

98. You are the one presenting the stat as truthful.

As such, it's up to you to provide a link that backs it up. Otherwise, it's just a made-up stat on a message board and should be disregarded.

And I've answered your question multiple times now. The fact that I don't agree with you doesn't change the answer. Are you reading all of my responses, or just stopping after the first sentence?

[Whisp]

105. I stopped doing link wars way back when

pointless waste of time I find.
but you can go ahead on your own if you like.

[jeff47]

120. So, didn't find any to back up your claim then?

I'm well aware of the problems coming up with any decent statistics in this realm. Which is why I challenged your claim.

We can't properly fix a problem when people exaggerate the hell out of it.

[Whisp]

123. I'll let you think you won this one.

Because it is so important to you. That's what girls do.

[LadyHawkAZ]

154. The definition of consent does not change

to benefit random "what ifs". If your adult woman was molested as a child and now wishes to have children, do you consider her unable to consent to pregnancy?

If she wishes to get married?

If she wishes to have sex without being paid?

Does it need to be a she? What if she is a he?

If they does not meet the medical definition if mentally handicapped, then THE CHOICE IS NOT YOURS TO MAKE FOR THEM. Not that choice or any other. Not you or anyone else. No matter how much you may dislike those choices, they are their choices to make.

If people would pour half the energy and resources into aid for sex workers that they do into demonizing and dehumanizing prostitutes, the world would be a much better place.

[Wait Wut]

144. I would guess that the majority...

...of abused men and women don't grow up to be prostitutes. Because we have no "real" numbers on sexual abuse (claims are that the majority isn't reported), I'd have to doubt any stats that claimed a certain percentage of victims grow up to be prostitutes.

And, yes, an adult, abuse victim or not, should be allowed to choose what he/she does with his/her own body. Whether the client knows or cares isn't important. I don't ask the waitress at the crappy restaurant down the street why she chose to work in such a thankless profession. I just leave a bigger tip.

[redqueen]

22. They don't care.

That's the hard truth of it.

They'll just deny that that's the case, and go on pretending there's no problem to be addressed.

[Whisp]

96. I like this one:

paraphrasing and not naming of course:

if a prostitute can consent to buy a car well.... then it's the same damn thing!

oiy

[LeftyMom]

38. Do you realize how insulting that is?

What you're saying is that women who make choices you don't agree with don't REALLY mean it. You sound just like a FFLer talking about abortion. Infantilizing women who make choices you don't like is anti-woman and anti-feminist.

[Whisp]

40. I disagree.

If you took some time out and did some research you will find out more on the subject. This is not infantilizing women, you are way off the mark on that one, LeftyMom.

[LeftyMom]

51. I have.

Further, I know a few women (and a few men, for that matter) who do/did sex work of one sort or another, and none of them strike me as victims, emotionally damaged people or have unusual abuse histories of which I am aware.

[Whisp]

53. you can't be saying that

a survivor of sexual abuse as a child has no effect on one's life and one's decisions? As I said in another post, as high as 75% of sex workers have been abused as children, that leaves the other 25 percentage who have not, and I'm not talking about them.

[LeftyMom]

58. Where am I saying that?

I'm not. But what I'm saying is that the need to perceive women in sex work as victims or as lacking autonomy in some way is behind the need to investigate their histories to begin with. Nobody does surveys to see what the abuse histories of secretaries, CEOs or sanitation workers might be.

[Whisp]

67. the 25% are not victims. I already said that.

they chose their type of work freely and is no one's business what they do.

Why would there be separate statistics for abused children that grow up and become the hundreds, thousands of possibly jobs they may go into? We are talking about the sex trade.

[Yavin4]

68. Using Your Logic, If A Person Experienced Sexual Abuse, Then They Can Never Give Adult Consent

to anything. Correct?

[Whisp]

69. no

I'm asking whether, if a John knew this, that this woman was raped by her uncle when she was 4, raped for 8 years and it has affected her whole view of what sex is and what self worth is... would that John still take the same 'pleasure' from her, less? more?

[redqueen]

70. Please.

As if a john using a woman who was sexually abused as a child is any different than someone asking that woman to type a memo, or take out the garbage.

Get real.

[Hugabear]

73. There will always be assholes who take advantage of emotionally traumatized women for sex

The only difference is that it's illegal for them to pay an emotionally traumatized woman for sex.

If a guy picks up that same woman in a bar at 2am, or meets her online, and then proceeds to have sex with her, then it's perfectly legal.

[Whisp]

74. What I am asking here of DUers

who shout out quite loudly to 'stay the hell out of my private privates in my private bedroom, prudes!'

Would your definition of 'consent' still be the same now that you know so many women sex workers are victims of child sexual abuse and may have a distorted idea of what human sexuality is. Should these women be looked upon as humans first and not just as vessels for masturbation?

[Hugabear]

78. Should a man who has sex with such a woman be considered guilty of rape?

Really curious to see how far you're willing to take your argument.

If a woman has been victimized by sexual assault as a child, can that woman ever give consent as an adult?

If the answer is "no", then should a man be considered guilty of rape if he has sex with that woman? After all, sex without consent is usually considered rape.

[Whisp]

86. not at all.

My point is these things should be taken into consideration and the word 'consent' may have nuances that could make some people who keep yelling out STAy OfFa mY FuN!! rethink that us that have other opinions are really not sexless ugly prudish trolls that stick voodoo pins in man dolls.

[Yavin4]

82. So, If Someon Experienced Sexual Abuse As A Child...

they are incapable of ever being able to give proper consent as an adult?

[Whisp]

87. no, I guess you still don't understand what I am asking...

so again I go.

knowing those stats of abuse, does your view and definition of 'consent' have the same value to prostitutes as a boyfriend/girlfriend, b/b, g/g having sex, who have not had sexual trauma in their lives?

[Hugabear]

97. Consent is consent

A person either can or cannot give consent.

We can argue about stats, childhood abuse, etc all day long - but in the end, we must decide if an adult can give consent or not regarding what they do with their own bodies.

I think most of us can agree that prostitution is repugnant, and that we should encourage women who feel the need to prostitute themselves to get help. But in the end, should the state be the one to tell that person what she can and cannot do in private?

For example, we would argue that a woman has the right to determine if she wants to carry a pregnancy to term, or to seek an abortion - it is her body, the state has no business interfering. We do not apply criteria to that decision to decide whether a woman is able to make that decision on her own.

[Whisp]

101. is it really so black and white?

the consent of a normal couple is the same as that of a person that has a distorted view of sex?

okay, guess that's the final result then - no difference - don't worry yourselves, Johns. its all okay. pork away and don't let that image of the little girl being savaged by her uncle spoil your fun at all.

on edit: this is not meant to you personally in any way, just what I think the general mentality on this issue is. I'm not surprised tho.

[Hugabear]

107. Straw man argument

The question at hand is, should the government be the one deciding if someone has a "distorted view of sex", and then taking away that person's right to consent?

By the way, I don't see anyone in this thread saying "don't let that image of the little girl being savaged by her uncle spoil your fun at all" - I think it's safe to say that most here on DU would severely frown on that.

[Whisp]

108. that's your question at hand, not mine.

and it is also safe to assume that DU isn't as woman/girl friendly as we like to pretend (ha!).

[woo me with science]

124. Yes, it is black and white.

You have the ability to consent as an adult, or you don't.

How absolutely outrageous that anyone would use a woman's history of having had control of her own body stripped away as a child...

...in order to deny her competence or right to control her own body as an adult.

[Whisp]

125. another whoooooosh!

[Warren DeMontague]

153. Is it black and white? Yes. You yourself do a disservice to both child abuse victims & rape victims

when you, yourself, try to play games with definitions of "consent" and "adult". There needs to be a bright, solid, not cross-able line between consent/non-consent, and adults/non-adults.

Saying "consent isn't really consent" and "adults really aren't adults" blurs that line.

[jeff47]

85. We are looking on them as humans

They are adult women. They have agency. They have the ability to consent to everything from a car loan to sex. If they have suffered psychological trauma, they have the ability to seek care for that trauma.

You seem to be arguing that they are not adults. They must be protected like children from the evils of the world, because you don't seem to think they can do so on their own.

More to the point, who doesn't have a distorted idea of what human sexuality is? Human sexuality is only a means by which we make more humans. Everything else we attach to it is a distortion.

Our tendency to require long-term pair-bonding is a relatively recently-developed distortion. Sexy clothing is a distortion. Making breakfast the next morning is a distortion. Sado-masochism is a distortion. Birth control is a distortion. Whipped cream is a distortion. Selling sex is a distortion. Sex toys are distortions.

It's not up to me to decide what distortions other consenting adults can engage in. No matter what their life story. They're adults, they get to choose for themselves, even if I think it's the wrong choice.

[Whisp]

88. see my post 87

that has been my question all along but I guess I am not a great communicator. I think I have made it as clear as I can but have not had a direct answer on that.

[Warren DeMontague]

152. I don't understand why there's this need or attempt to muddy concepts like "consenting adults"

either we have concepts like consent and adults, or we don't. We can play all sorts of games as to whether humans are clockwork or orange or what is motivating who to do which, where.

What if women who have been abused are more likely to get abortions? Does that mean they shouldn't be in charge of their own bodies? How far into peoples' heads do we need to go to search out a justitication for, again, controlling the choices of CONSENTING ADULTS?

If we are to have ANY sort of standard (which is what we're talking about, right? Unless the real goal is to have a platform in which to fire off zingers like "vessels for masturbation&quot and that standard is based upon CONSENT and ADULTS, we have to allow that some people may make choices we don't agree with, some people may have opaque or even bad motivations for making those choices, etc.

But they are ADULTS and if they state that they are consenting, then that is the line which we must use.

[jeff47]

76. If they can not consent, then you do not think they can't be out on their own.

If you wish to take away their ability to consent in the bedroom, you are taking away their ability to consent anywhere else. What you're proposing is to institutionalize these women. Because that's what we do to adults who can not take care of themselves due to psychological issues.

Also, be very careful about the prostitution statistics that you "heard". It's extremely difficult to get real data, so a great deal of it is made up, or extrapolated from very small samples that don't cover a broad enough spectrum to say "prostitutes are _____".

For example, surveying streetwalkers is going to give you a completely different result than surveying callgirls, which is going to give you a different result from the women who "marry a rich guy". All of them are prostitutes, but they have vastly different experiences. Likewise, surveys done on women turning to charities to get out of prostitution are going to have different results from the women who are happy with the work.

As far as I know, nobody has actually been able to produce decent statistics. There's always sample size issues and selection bias. The people who tend to come forward are the ones trying to leave that career behind. There's some promising studies in the works to address these problems, but I've no idea if they've been able to overcome the problems.

As an example of the made-up nature of the stats, in 2006 anti-prostitution groups in the UK were screaming about the massive number of child prostitutes and trafficked women in the UK forced to work as prostitutes. Large sums of money were allocated by the government to clean up the problem. They did an awful lot of investigation, talking to tens of thousands of prostitutes all over the UK. They offered the women police protection while still in the UK, and work visa to stay in the UK, or free trip back to their country to get away from the traffickers. A tiny number of women took them up on their offer (less than 10 IIRC). Also, a very tiny number of underage prostitutes were found during that sweep. So the doomsday statistics really were not born out.

That's not to say trafficking doesn't happen, nor that underage prostitution does not exist. But the scale of the problem is very much unknown, mostly due to the underground nature of prostitution.

[redqueen]

81. Consent is not a black and white issue.

People working in sweatshops consent to work in horrible conditions. Are they not being exploited?

As for actual relationships with people with whom they are personally involved, that is a whole different kettle of fish. This OP was started in response to my daring to say that prostitution was the cause of too much violence and was a form of exploitation, and that the Swedish way of dealing with it, IMO, represents the more progressive method of dealing with the issue. As such, I think we should draw distinctions between consenting relationships between people which don't involve monetary compensation in order to buy access to the person's body.

[jeff47]

89. Consent and exploitation are not the same.

So those people in the sweatshops are being exploited, and they are consenting to the exploiting.

"This OP was started in response to my daring to say that prostitution was the cause of too much violence and was a form of exploitation"

What your post lacked was reliable statistics to back up your assertion. Yes, there are horrible stories. But I can find stories of abuse of women working in any occupation. We're not about to ban paying women to be doctors because a woman doctor was beaten, are we?

"As such, I think we should draw distinctions between consenting relationships between people which don't involve monetary compensation in order to buy access to the person's body."

And I don't support letting the government into any bedroom that only contains consenting adults. These women are adults. Not children. It is not our right to demand they behave in a certain way because as adults they get to make that choice.

There is also a large class bias to your proposal. A mistress is just a much better-paid prostitute. A woman who "marries an old rich guy" is a much, much better-paid prostitute. The only difference is her pay isn't left on the dresser. Yet your proposal only goes after the Johns who don't pay as well.

[redqueen]

93. There are lies, damn lies, and there are statistics.

Familiar with that saying? That's why I decided not to go that route.

For every study showing something, there's another showing something else. Sociological studies are especially prone to this, being a 'soft science'.

Your conflation of doctors with prostitutes is nonsensical. And besides, I never said we should ban prostitution. For the I don't know how manyeth time, the Swedish method criminalizes the buying of sex, not the selling of it. It does not seek to further punish people that are considered to be exploited to begin with.

The conflation of women who engage in relationships with sugar daddies with prostitutes is disingenuous. Prostitutes sleep with many different men. They face much much much higher risks.

This constant refusal to deal with the issue as a serious matter is offputting at best.

[jeff47]

102. If you can't prove the problem exists, why should we put people in jail to solve it?

If you can't prove the problem exists, why should we put people in jail to solve it?

"Your conflation of doctors with prostitutes is nonsensical."

The only basis for your proposal was your claim that many prostitutes are abused. I can find many women abused in many professions. In fact, my workplace requires I take sexual harassment training every year so that I don't abuse women. Yet you only want to make it illegal to pay a prostitute.

"the Swedish method criminalizes the buying of sex, not the selling of it."

There are (at least) two parties involved in prostitution. The fact that you give one of the parties a free pass does not make prostitution legal except in the most pedantic sense.

"The conflation of women who engage in relationships with sugar daddies with prostitutes is disingenuous. Prostitutes sleep with many different men"

They both sleep with men for money. And if she can't find a sugar daddy to pay her enough, you can be damn sure she'll be sleeping with multiple.

"This constant refusal to deal with the issue as a serious matter is offputting at best."

The fact that I don't agree with you does not mean I am not treating this seriously.

[jtuck004]

118. How many of the men, mostly perhaps, have also been abused, mistreated, raped, taught

that "girls" are objects of conquest, property, acceptable outlets for violence...yada, yada, yada. Some of these guys, many of them perhaps, never had a chance to consent to what was placed in their heads either. (I believe it was just this year that the FBI, in its infinite benevolence, decided that raping a man is worth counting).

But there are lots of ways to abuse someone.

Where I think the misunderstanding comes in is when people assume that a woman who is selling sex is in any worse shape than the guy who is paying her. Or vice versa.

Maybe the big issue isn't that either is some unfortunate victim of an unfortunate upbringing or circumstance, where they would act more like some self-righteous asshole thinks they should if only it hadn't been for (insert your favorite trauma here).

Maybe it's more about how our society treats women and men, and the infantile way in which we view and educate for sex, rather than an issue with their environment.

Perhaps if we, as a country, would throw the greedy-ass bankers and their friends into jail, INSIST that our tax money be used to provide opportunies to thrive, throw out our parochial and useless ideas about and treat sex like the healthy biological drive that it is, (as opposed to some dirty, nasty thing that will send you straight to hell used as a way to control others), and quit trying to blame our societal issues on the nearest convenient whipping boy we might find that a lot of things would change.

[yardwork]

135. That's a very good point and I also think that the OP is a good point. This is the grey area.

I tend to stay out of the threads on prostitution and pornography (and there have been many on DU over the years). They tend to polarize into two opposite camps that don't recognize the grey area in the middle.

On the one hand, I agree that most pornography and prostitution is exploitative. It's a business that often exploits vulnerable people, people who have very little power. Googling something like "bondage" brings up pages and pages of readily accessible images of obviously abused women, as well as abused children and men. It's horrible. I'm completely in favor of laws that crack down on sex trafficking.

On the other hand, there are genuine issues of constitutional rights involved.

[Warren DeMontague]

147. So women who have been abused are children, unable to ever make decisions about their own lives?

How's that gonna work, exactly?

[Democrats_win]

16. Meanwhile, the "mile high" club could be flying over your house while you worry about the gestapo.

People have tried to keep airplanes from flying over their houses/land and we all know how that worked out. But think how the police might knock on your door and catch you smoking something. Meanwhile the mile high club flies on by. The injustice of it all is astonishing. Then we can talk about corporate crimes including what they're doing to your groundwater. But the police are too busy worring about YOU, you criminal!

[SidDithers]

17. +1...

The state has no business in the bedrooms of the nation. - Pierre Trudeau



Sid

[Proud Liberal Dem]

18. Very much in line with my own thinking on the matter

Seems like it should be a simple concept for other people to understand/practice. Too bad it isn't.

[seabeyond]

19. me me me... i only have to think about ME. oh wait... progressive? nt

[DisgustipatedinCA]

20. What do you mean?

I'm having a hard time following your line. Are you saying that the OP posted something that was selfish, that was only about him (I'm assuming the OP is male)? Are you saying the thread is in poor taste? Do you think there should be prohibitions on what sorts of consensual sex is permitted in bedrooms? I'm half-lost, but I do see the snarky tone--just trying to figure out your meaning.
thank you.

[seabeyond]

24. i am saying it is another call out thread on the prostitution thread. stating buy a body to use,...

fuck the consequences. even child sex slave trade. because none of that should be a consideration. only me me me, it is all about me. ooops, we are progressives. we look beyond the me.

[Yavin4]

28. So, No One Else Is Allowed To State An Opinion?

Only you? Wow.

[seabeyond]

32. i didnt tell you not to state an opinion. you stated your opinion. then i stated mine.

it is called a discussion board.

then you stated your opinion about mine opinion. now i am just explaining the whole thing to you. lol.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

30. thank you for the explanation

Please understand I cannot comment on what was in the other thread. I did open it, but I didn't read it especially carefully.

In the context of this thread alone, which is the context with which I'm approaching it, I completely agree with the OP, and I hope that everyone else does too. Thank you.

[seabeyond]

35. so it is all about me me me and fuck everyone else. ok. we differ in opinion. i dont think it is

all about me. i think sometimes we have to look beyond ourselves.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

41. sure, no problem. Just let us know the appropriate hour and day to post about our own concerns

It may not be "all about you" in your mind. It is, however "all about what you want it to be about" in your mind. You're trying to control what does and does not get talked about. That's probably not a recipe for success.

[Charlemagne]

43. Please

reword the op to properly meet your requirements and then post it here so that we can look beyond ourselves. I seriously want to know what the problem is. Could you reword it and post it so that we can be more progressive? Show us what we are getting wrong.

[Major Nikon]

114. I don't think there's anything selfish about staying the hell out of other people's bedrooms

In fact, I'd say the reverse is true. It's selfish to impose your own set of morals on someone else if those morals have no ethical basis.

If there are social problems with porn, prostitution, pole dancing, or any other sex related occupation, those problems should be addressed directly without telling otherwise consenting adults what they can or can't do. This is the essense of civil liberties. I believe that's what the OP is saying.

[Upton]

33. You think it's progressive to dictate to others what they can or cannot do in their bedrooms?

Sounds more like authoritarianism to me..

[Yavin4]

34. I Like How You Project Your Own Arguments and Just Ignore My OP

"...fuck the consequences. even child sex slave trade"

I said adults. I stated that sex with minors and human trafficking are both immoral and illegal. Yet, somehow, you want to keep screaming about this because you cannot refute the logic of my post.

[seabeyond]

39. but the argument has already been explained to you why you a statement like that is false.

you chose to ignore it. doesnt mean it goes away.

it is easy to say child sex slave is wrong. but what it will take to address that infringes on MY rights. but really, i am not overlooking the child sex slave issue because i said it was wrong.

[Charlemagne]

42. from the OP

"If the activity involves violent coercion, or non-violent coercion, or under age children, or human trafficking, then the activity is both illegal and immoral, and it should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. "

What is the problem

[Yavin4]

49. If Making Prostituion Illegal Gets Rid of Child Sex Slavery...

then why does child sex slavery exists in America, even though prostitution is illegal in all of America.

Also, please don't bring up the Sweden model. Plenty of jurisdictions in America go after the 'Johns' as well. They publish their names, and even make them sex offenders.

[uppityperson]

66. From the OP...

"If the activity involves violent coercion, or non-violent coercion, or under age children, or human trafficking, then the activity is both illegal and immoral, and it should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. "

What is the problem

[Charlemagne]

37. Is every thread a call out thread...

because the topic is somewhat/marginally related.

When are people allowed to post anything without being accused of advocating anti-women violence?

[Whisp]

44. I guess you remember the Roman Polanski defenders here...

There was a post here last little while about Stephen Hawkings' saying women are still the biggest mystery... paraphrasing here.

I suppose that mystery could be why a grown man like Polanski could not control himself against a 13 year old girl and her 'mysterious' ways that made him rape her. There were people here defending this. HERE. Why, ya know, some 13 year olds aren't Really 13, ya know! What's a red blooded man to do!

[Yavin4]

45. Can't Speak for Other Posters, But I Clearly Stated Adult Consent

Why you bring up Polanski is a mystery to me.

[Whisp]

47. was that response to you?

no

[Charlemagne]

50. was that response to you? no

seriously.................


are we 13 now?

[Whisp]

54. no, Polanski's victim was tho.

and I did not bring up Polanski's name to that particular poster so I have no idea why he jumped in and tries to tell me what I can talk about and what I can't.

[Charlemagne]

55. "so I have no idea why he jumped in and tries to tell me what I can talk about and what I can't."

The poster didnt do that, at all.

[Whisp]

57. you his lawyer?

[Charlemagne]

59. Nope

I just call out people when they make baseless claims or state someone said something when they didnt.

[Posteritatis]

103. Strangely enough, other posters don't need your consent to respond to your comments. (nt)

[Whisp]

104. that is strange

I will have to take that up with management

[seabeyond]

46. yup. lol. i have heard it all. also a hoot in that hawkings thread

a poster YELLING for women to clue him in. as a whole lot of women were clueing him him. NO mystery. listen. dammit. lol

[Charlemagne]

48. We are listening

Please reword the OP so that we can correctly understand the issue.

We (men) are all guilty of always promoting violence against women and celebrating rape. And we take joy in dismissing all rape all the time.


So, please reword the OP to better reflect what we are missing.

[Whisp]

56. excuse me sir, but you seem to have

TESTERIA!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=148606

[Charlemagne]

60. Or we could try discussing the issues

Instead of name calling.

Maturity is fun, too.

[Whisp]

61. yes daddy

[Charlemagne]

62. Ok

No longer talking to you since you are unable to hold a normal discussion.

Good luck with that.

[Whisp]

64. okey dokey

[DisgustipatedinCA]

84. It was mildly cute, for a minute.

Also, it's not a new word, as that other poster seems to indicate.

[Whisp]

90. as you are

[DisgustipatedinCA]

94. and this means?

I'm having a difficult time keeping up with the sentence fragments, sorry.

[jeff47]

72. Children can not consent. They do not apply to the OP.

How, exactly, do you plan to regulate sex between adults to prevent sexual abuse of minors who aren't present?

[Yavin4]

26. I'm Thinking About Everyone

There was a famous sodomy cases in New Orleans, LA, wherein a cop on the street caught two men engaging in coitus. He arrested both men, and the case went before the SCOTUS, where the convictions were upheld.

Is that what you want? You want the cops to spy on you?

[Warren DeMontague]

148. What's fucking selfish is wallowing in the delusion that it's your job to run other peoples' lives.

Me Me Me I'm so fucking wonderful and perfect and all-knowing and morally unimpeachable that I MUST tell consenting adults who I've never met what they can or can't do in their own lives!

[font size=4]Because if THEY do something I don't like, it bugs ME! ME!

I MUST CONTROL ALL!

[blink]

ME!

ME!

ME! [/blink]

[/font]
(...."us"? no, no.. different topic)



[font size=7]
MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE![/font]

[hughee99]

25. Unless they're smoking cigarettes, then it may also be their employers business. n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

27. But..but...some of the things they do are vewy, vewy, naughty, and, even worse, pleasurable.

There is only one honest impulse at the bottom of Puritanism, and that is the impulse to punish the person with a superior capacity for happiness." H.L. Mencken

[barbtries]

29. yep.

consenting adults get to do what they want. that's not hard.

[Charlemagne]

31. I love your

name.


Nice!

[HockeyMom]

63. I f married, these couples

choice to have non-procreative, birth controlled, SODOMY, sex that is their business and no business of government's. Unforunately, these religious right wing converstative Repukes want to control the bedroom life of ALL Americans; straight, gay, married, unmarried.

I think in 2012 the Majority of Americans want no part of this. We only need to see what happened in Mississippi to understand this.

[polly7]

75. Absolutely +1000.

(and, I say this as a survivor)

[workinclasszero]

100. Hey the teabaggers are all for freedom from big goobermint...

And yet they want to put a federal officer in every bedroom in America to make damn sure we are doing it the way they want it done and outlaw birth control pills!

Not to mention people that have had 3 wife's or so are the great moral beings that are passing down these laws from on high to the little people!

I mean...W...T...H...is up with that????

[Rex]

106. Unless they are killing each other, selling/buying people or children, etc...

I agree. If consenting adults want to do strange things or taboo things that don't hurt others, it is not any of my business.

[quinnox]

112. it is very simple

Not sure what the problem is with some folks who don't understand this or something. Anyone who thinks they have a right to put their noses in this has an authoritarian mindset, even if they can't recognize it.

[tnvoter]

113. are you referring to prostitution or homosexuality or both?

I happen to agree with both. As long as they are consenting adults and coercion was involved, I couldn't care less how other people choose to spend their time/resources.

[slutticus]

116. It doesn't get simpler than that.

[provis99]

117. what would you say to this incident then?

German Cannibal Tells of Fantasy
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/3286721.stm

Apparently, a German man voluntarily and willingly let another man kill him to eat his penis.
There was no violent coercion, and it took place in private. It was, in fact, filmed.

Do you think this is acceptable?

[jeff47]

121. If everyone involved can consent, yes.

I have doubts that the....um....food in this event was legally sane, thus would not be able to consent. However, if psychiatrists had figured out he was sane then bon appetit.

Just like any other form of assisted suicide.

[Yavin4]

122. No. This Is Wrong.

Assisted suicide should be allowed, but it should be under a doctor's care.

Murder is still illegal whether it is consented to or not.

[Fokker Trip]

136. Acceptable is not the same as illegal(I know you know this).

What might be unacceptable to you and I doesn't mean it should be illegal. I find the idea of eating feces unacceptable because it carries a risk of disease but I don't think it should be illegal.

I think the German cannibalism is bizarre, but by your reasoning, any cannibals that still exist in the remote parts of the world should all be sanctioned somehow for their behavior.

Do you think that would be acceptable?

The discussion up-thread about mental health is very interesting as it should factor into the entirety of how society functions far more so than it does today. Our current Prime Minister in Canada is at least someone with Narcissistic personality disorder or is a full blown psychopath, I suspect its the latter. But none is talking about it this way, and until they do they cannot see the true nature of his destructive policies and actions.

As rats overpopulate an enclosure they start to eat each other. I suspect this will occur in the human population as well in the coming decades. Climate change will make food far more scarce than it is today.

If you were going to starve and you had the chance to eat someones arm, that they were willing to sell to you, would you do it?

[provis99]

155. so murdering someone to eat them is all cultural? Ok then.

I guess morality is relative to you folks.

[jtuck004]

119. Yup. /nt

[woo me with science]

126. How offensive some of these conclusions are.

Last edited Wed Jan 11, 2012, 10:18 AM - Edit history (3)

How absolutely outrageous that anyone would use a woman's history of having had control of her own body stripped away as a child...

...in order to deny her competence or right to control her own body as an adult.

[Prophet 451]

127. Seconded n/t

[La Lioness Priyanka]

130. so true. i was molested as a child

which totally does not invalidate other life choices i have made. gah

[Prophet 451]

128. Devil's advocate here

How about serious bodily harm? I'm not talking about consensual kinkiness but a situation where one party gives the other permission to beat the hell out of them, up to and including broken bones, internal injuries or brain damage.

Granted, it's difficult to envision such a scenario happening but would you still hold that consent covers everything?

Note: I actually don't have an opinion on this, I'm just curious as to your reasoning.

[Douglas Carpenter]

129. thank you..I was beginning to think the authoritarians were dominating the left as much as they

are already dominating the right.

[Fokker Trip]

137. They sure do seem to be coming out of the closet around here though.

I wonder if its in response to the dissonance created by trying to support Obama while seeing him do things like sign the NDAA.

Dissonance like that tends to bend the mind a whole bunch.

[backscatter712]

131. A-fucking-men! n/t

[maggiesfarmer]

132. in general, I agree but consider if I want to manufacture crystal meth and base cocaine

and sell it to consenting adults, all in the privacy of my own home. are we as a society ready to accept the repercussions of this? personally, I think those drugs, if legalized, would cause so much social pain that it's simply not worth the risk.

[Fokker Trip]

138. Intersting question.

I think that if cannabis were legalized you'd see the use of manufactured drugs(basically all other drugs) fall off a cliff. I believe that the "problem" use of hard drugs has risen steadily since cannabis was made illegal.

All drug use is a form of coping mechanism, if the coping can happen with a non-harmful herb/drug like cannabis then I don't think many users would go on to use things like meth, cocaine, heroin, etc.

Now once those are used it is difficult to stop, I get that, but cannabis is even being used in treatment programs to help get people off hard drugs.

The rule of thumb is that the more processed a drug is the more harmful it is. Coca leaves are a really useful drug for those who chew them, but concentrated down to cocaine, well then the trouble starts.

[Hepburn]

141. Disagree...

...those who wish to use drugs are going to do so whether it is legal or not, IMO.

As far as I am concerned, I don't give a shit about what anyone does as long as they are able to consent to the conduct, involved with others who have the ability to consent and do not endanger others. By the latter I mean such things as operating a vehicle loaded or manufactoring materials which could harm others who are in the area and who are not involved.

It's a matter of privacy as far as I am concerned ~~ anyone can do as he/she wishes as long as they do not cause others not involved harm or invade another's area of privacy.

I am so tired others and the government trying to regulate and/or enforce the morals of others.

[Douglas Carpenter]

133. AMEN!!! knr

[Hepburn]

140. A-fucking-men

I am soooooooooo sick of conservatives and evangels worring more about other's bedrooms than about things that actually are areas of concern.

[LanternWaste]

142. Much like wearing a burka.

Much like wearing a burka.

[Fokker Trip]

143. That's a really interesting issue and so topical.

Would women who wear burkas ever wear them if the religion of the area didn't essentially force them to wear burkas. The force being fear of punishment.

So is burka wearing purely a result of misogyny in Islamic religion? or is it considered to be a free choice by the burka wearer(as an adult)? If you asked her the question near any men she would surely say yes but what if she said no while speaking in private.

Where to draw the line? And is it reasonable for a secular state to outlaw the wearing of burkas to add the weight of the state against the male favoring rules of Islam (or other religions)?

[Warren DeMontague]

149. I wouldn't tell a woman who wanted to wear a burka that she couldn't.

I also wouldn't tell a consenting adult who wanted to fuck in front of a camera that he or she couldn't, either.

Unlike the pro-censorship ideological purity brigade, here.

[Fokker Trip]

145. This is the greatness of America, spoken as a Canadian.

I think that to many in the world makes the US most admirable is this very thing.

Its a crucial bedrock of all freedoms. Yes there can be monsters who abuse this freedom, but they are relatively few and giving up any of this freedom should never be negotiable.

I say this as a Canadian who can be sharp in my criticism of the US but I also think it is full of absolutely wonderful people and it IS the beacon of freedom in the world, most importantly as an abstract collection of the ideas and ideals of freedom. Ideas people can dream to emulate.

[maggiesfarmer]

146. what about if I operate a pay-day loan business charging 25% interest?

In addition to my crystal meth, base cocaine counter case above, I suggest this is another exception to your rule. In general, I'm a big proponent of freedom and the governement not restricting actions between consenting adults. However, in my life I've found that very few philosophical principles that apply to every single situation.

I hate these pay-day loan businesses (I tend to put the "Instant tax refunds" and "rent to own" businesses in the same bucket). Yes, they're loaning money to consenting adults (open quesiton if those people truly have another choice) but they're preying on the poorest, most uneducated segment of the population and I have no issues outlawing those practices.

[Warren DeMontague]

151. Sorry I'm late to the party.

K&R.