Could it be Pence and Cabinet have already invoked the 25th Amendment and we just don't know it?

[StarfishSaver]

[crazylikafox]

1. I was hoping that happened Wednesday night

Are they required to tell us?

[StarfishSaver]

6. I don't see anything in the Constitution that requires public notice.

And Wednesday night made me think this was a possibility, too.

[JHB]

32. A deal to keep it quiet in oreder to get it done...

...in order to take the nuclear codes and CiC status away from the howler monkey?

Possible, but we'll find out in about a week and a half.

[BGBD]

84. No requirement for public notice

however, I think it would be impossible to keep secret.

The VP and cabinet would have to notify the Speaker and Pres pro temp that Trump was unable to execute his duties. At that point Trump could send them a letter saying he was able to fulfill them. Then, if the cabinet still said he wasn't it would be up to congress to decide within 48 hours unless not in session, which they are.

At this point the Senate is only holding pro forma sessions and aren't scheduled to be back in town for over a week. If the 25th had been exercised I'm sure they wouldn't be in pro forma till the 19th.

I mean, if Pence uses the 25th on Trump then Trump is surely going to notify congress that he's able to fulfill the duties of the office and try to retake the power.

[StarfishSaver]

85. There's no requirement that Trump be informed

Yes, I know that's probably how it's supposed to be done. But this an extraordinary situation that's never occurres before and who knows what measures they're taking.

I really do think it's possible they're doing something to retake away his powers, whether it's formal, informal, or even a partial invocation of the amendment. Whatever it is -;or if it isn't anything at all - we'll all eventually find out what's going on, though...

[marylandblue]

7. They have to tell Congress, which normally makes it public.

More significantly, there are routine communications that normally go through the White House. If these were suddenly switch to the VP's office, a lot of people would know and there would be leaks. As it is, the leaks are saying they are trying to isolate Trump.

[StarfishSaver]

12. They don't have to tell Congress

Just Pelosi and Grassley. We know Pelosi can keep a secret. I suspect Grassley can to.

[marylandblue]

36. That's what I meant. And yes, they can keep a secret, but I doubt Pelosi would.

There is really no point to keeping it secret, except for Trump's own insanity and his followers, which is a pretty bad reason.

[StarfishSaver]

44. If making it public would set off Trump and his deranged followers, there's good reason

to keep it confidential.

[marylandblue]

73. No. The public has a right to know who the President is, terrorists be damned.

The United States President does not skulk fearfully in shadows. Nor does the government hide from the likes of Trump.

[StarfishSaver]

74. There is no requirement that the public be informed that the 25th Amendment has been invoked

And the 25th Amendment doesn't change who the president is - Trump would still be president unless he resigns or the Senate removes him in an impeachment process.

[marylandblue]

77. The point is that when dealing with narcissists, do not hide in fear.

That is the worst you can do. If you are taking them down, take them down in broad daylight with a smile on your face. If you do anything else, they interpret it as weakness and use it against you. Been there, down that. Never again.

[MoonlitKnight]

69. I think they might have the signed document

And are holding off delivery.

[StarfishSaver]

70. Interesting

[MoonlitKnight]

72. Nothing prohibits them hanging on to the signed document

The action that puts it in effect is the transmittal to Pelosi and Grassley. It is then immediately in effect upon transmission. Then the clock starts for everything else.

This is what I would do and is consistent with Pense’s statement today. The risk is Trump finding out and firing the cabinet before it can be transmitted. But if they all signed it he can’t do crap. Arguably they would become moot and it just needs Pense.

[marylandblue]

2. Doubt it, it's hard to keep that a secret, but

The cabinet may have agreed to simply ignore Trump's orders and follow Pence.

[MelissaB]

3. I do believe something has been put in place.

[Captain Zero]

9. Yeah he is on as short of a chain as they can get him on

For now.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

4. I don't suppose they'd have to announce it, but that would be a tough secret to keep.

[StarfishSaver]

10. I don't think it would be that hard.

Only Pence, Pelosi and Grassley need to know.

The cabinet doesn't even need to know. Each member could have been individually asked for approval and those who have it don't necessarily need to know who else approved or whether a majority has signed off.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

26. True, but that place leaks like a sieve.

But I do think something is going on, although it might be just that he can't communicate any more.

[StarfishSaver]

30. Actually, it doesn't

The leaks come from the lower ranks. The senior people keep right lids on things.

[Siwsan]

5. I bet they are operating as if they have

At least I HOPE so.

[2naSalit]

8. I think they are bound by law to tell us if they did...

Pesky things like transparency and all that.

[StarfishSaver]

11. They aren't as far as I can tell.

They just need to inform the Speaker and President pro tempore

[2naSalit]

29. Seems like we should be aware that there has been a change of president...

Doesn't make sense otherwise.

[StarfishSaver]

34. Not a change in presidents - Trump is still president

He's just not calling the shots.

Hardly anyone would notice. I've worked in those circles and no one below a very high level communicates directly with the president. We didn't know if instructions were coming from the president, the vice president, Chief of Staff or a much lower staff person. When we got a call that "The White House" wanted us to do something, it got done, even though we knew it was unlikely that it had come from the president - or that he even knew anything about it.

[JI7]

13. If this did happen when would they announce it ?

I think they are all too cowardly to do it.

But I would love to be wrong.

[StarfishSaver]

15. They could announce it after noon on 1/20. Or later. Or never.

[in2herbs]

24. Would they be required to announce it during any impeachment hearing??? nt

[Silent3]

14. Probably not, but I have fantasized about that being true

I'm not sure what would be gained by such a ruse, even if it could be pulled off.

I would be greatly amused, however, by the idea of Trump feverishly issuing pardons behind the scenes, completely unaware that he didn't have that power anymore, merely generating worthless scraps of paper.

(Maybe not totally worthless -- they'd no doubt have historical and/or collector's value someday.)

[StarfishSaver]

17. One value was to keep Trump from going ballistic

Sit him somewhere at his little table with with his pens and crayons and a plastic Tinker Toy phone that makes little jingly noises when he dials it while grown folk handle the business.

[PA_jen]

16. So they invoke it and still have Trump in the White House as a Figure head President? No

if that is the case it a disrespect to the Constitution, The American People and the Office of The President of the United States. It is like rewarding a call for sedition. He needs to be removed and allowed to be disgraced.

[StarfishSaver]

18. How does invoking the 25th Amendment disrespect the Constitution the office or the people?

Remember, the 25th Amendment doesn't remove the president from office or mean he's no longer president. It just transfers his powers to the VP - and that can be done without the public knowing, especially when we're talking about just a few days.

[PA_jen]

23. Sorry as I understand the 25th that if you give the powers to the VP then you are basically giving

them to Pence. Trump has no business occupying the White House.

[onenote]

39. It would be inconsistent with the clear intent of the amendment

To prevent the president from reclaiming his authority by keeping the information secret.

[StarfishSaver]

46. The point wouldn't be to keep him from reclaiming his aurhority

The point would be that he's so deranged that knowing his power had been transferred would make him even more dangerous.

[onenote]

50. Too bad. It's still inconsistent with the intent

It renders a significant part of the amendment a nullify. The wording clearly indicates the president has to have the opportunity to reclaim his authority. Pence and the cabinet are provided a means to respond if he does.

So I revise my answer. No it is not possible that the 25th amendment has already been invoked.

[StarfishSaver]

52. Well, it's obvious that Pence is taking on duties of the president, surely not with Trump's

approval - for example, calling out the National Guard, which Pence as VP has no power to do but did anyway. So it doesn't look to me that they're all that worried about adhering to to the strict intent of the Constitution anyway.

[RockRaven]

19. Everyone who is obliged to follow orders from the POTUS would need to know...

Most of them do not take orders directly from the VP so Pence could not simply omit the fact he was acting-POTUS while telling them to do things that POTUS, but not the VP, has the authority to do.

[StarfishSaver]

22. Only the military brass would be in this position and they would likely already be read in

Anyone else would just as easily take orders from the VP or any senior staff at the White House, who would probably also be read in to some degree.

[RockRaven]

43. I'm not so sure how true that is by law (the part about non military having to follow VP orders)

That may be true by recent/modern convention, because those POTUSs and VPs generally worked together, but historically it is not true. Many VPs have either joked or complained about having no power or having nothing to do. I don't know what laws, if any, have clarified or rectified that in the modern era. A lot of people would have to know, and someone would have tipped off a reporter -- not least likely of which would be Trump himself.

[Fiendish Thingy]

20. They would've had to transmit a letter to Grassley...would that stay private? Nt

[StarfishSaver]

25. I think it would

The senior Congressional leaders are very good at keeping information confidential.

[Miguelito Loveless]

21. Nope. They have to inform Pelosi

And she would not keep it secret.

[StarfishSaver]

27. Pelosi would very well keep it a secret if she believed that public knowledge would trigger Trumo

or make the transfer not work.

[AnyFunctioningAdult]

33. I believe Pelosi and Grassley would keep it secret if

They all agreed on a plan. The one who would make it VERY public would be Trump. Removing his powers under the 25th would not take his cell phone away from him. He would call into Fox or schedule some speech (the news outlets would not know he had no power yet) and let everyone know to come do something about it.

[StarfishSaver]

35. Exactly. The point of all of this is for Trump not to know it.

There's nothing in the Amendment that requires he be put on notice. They may have done it and he doesn't know. He's giving orders and whoever he gives them to checks with Pence.

[onenote]

41. It is implicit in the structure of the amendment

That the president has to have an opportunity to reclaim his authority after the amendment is invoked.

Neither Pence nor Pelosi would play along with the scheme your suggesting.

[AnyFunctioningAdult]

51. True

But they could just put it into his daily briefing, which means he would never see it. Fulfills their obligation to inform him to me heh.

[StarfishSaver]

54. Lol!

"We told you, didn't we? No? Oh, snap. Our bad."

[ecstatic]

81. Lol! nt

[Boomerproud]

55. Thank you.

Trump would be the 1st person to know about it and we all know he wouldn't step aside. Futile.

[StarfishSaver]

58. He doesn't step aside. He would still be president. He just doesn't have any power.

[Miguelito Loveless]

38. If the vote was taken,

Pence IMMEDIATELY becomes acting president, and Trump’s views are irrelevant.

[StarfishSaver]

47. Not worried about his views. Worried about his ability to wreak havoc

[Miguelito Loveless]

53. If the vote was taken

Trump is no longer president and has no power.

[StarfishSaver]

56. He's still president. His powers and duties just transfer to Pence.

He is not removed from office, though.

[Miguelito Loveless]

60. He has NO power

Thus can do nothing. He can appeal, and the congress has 4 days to respond. However, he IMMEDIATELY loses all powers in the meantime.

[Girard442]

28. It's a lovely fantasy. Too good to be true.

I've heard the "Trump is isolated." BS. Yeah, he was real isolated on the 6th, wasn't he?

[StarfishSaver]

42. He hasn't done anything evidencing actual presidential power in days

No pardons, no executive orders, etc. He really has been kind of isolated since Thursday.

I really don't know. But it's fun to speculate.

[Totally Tunsie]

61. There was that Medal of Freedom ceremony on Thursday,

but not much else.

[StarfishSaver]

62. Yes, but that was purely ceremonial

He had actually signed off on the awards months ago. He was just handing them out. It didn't involve the exercise of any presidential power.

[LeftInTX]

76. Trump is going to be in the Rio Grande Valley (Hidalgo County) on Tuesday

He is going to be down there to "inspect his wall" to distract himself from impeachment.


Normally his wall would get everyone upset, but I would prefer that he admire his "big, beautiful wall" than take part in insurrection.

[demtenjeep]

82. take a last look cause after the 20th its gone

what a fucking waste of money

[LeftInTX]

83. Yes, his great big beautiful wall...

He can have a bromance with it...hug it...play golf on it...go shopping across the border...play miniature golf (it's a thing down there), go to South Padre Island (now that would be visually bad, like something you cannot un-see but if it keeps him out of DC)

Really I just want to keep him out of DC as long as possible.

[onenote]

31. I suppose it "could" be but I'd wager a tidy sum that they haven't.

[StarfishSaver]

37. I have know idea if it's true, but I'm really enjoying speculating about it!

[FirstLight]

40. Ok I'll play...and I think it could be possible

but it's more likely they are just keeping him on lockdown and pence is really doing the grownup work.

As much as I'd like them to announce it and truly humiliate the cheeto (because 25th Amend. is really worse than impeachment at this rate, esp for trump) ...AND as much as I'd love for it to happen Sunday, since everyone is looking at Monday for Impeachment.

There is a strategy to keeping it quiet when you think about it... the "Trump Army"

Maybe it's better to have them lulled into a false sense of security thinking "see? Our Man is STILL in office!" That would make it easier for the FBI to round 'em up.

[StarfishSaver]

49. You're probably right

It's probably more of a constructive invocation than an actual one. But I'm having pushing the hypo envelope to see how much it can hold ...

[Renew Deal]

45. Yes, but that would be a hard secret to keep.

It's possible the papers are filled out and it's a matter of putting a date on it. But I think it's unlikely because that secret would be almost impossible to keep.

[Turin_C3PO]

48. Maybe.

Or they’ve come to an unofficial understanding that they won’t be taking orders from him anymore. I hope that’s the case.

[AmericanCanuck]

57. I doubt it ... a secret 25th amendment will have no effect

If people think Trump is POTUS, they will still take orders from him, he will continue to write executive orders and continue to pardon people.

If no one is told, those orders will remain in force and those people will still say they got the pardon in good-faith.

[StarfishSaver]

59. It wouldn't work that way

As I've said, orders come out of the White House, not directly from the president. Most people in government have no idea who personally issues directives coming out of the White House. From an operational standpoint, this would be very easy to do.

[onenote]

75. No it wouldn't work the way you think

Even if you’re right that orders come out of the White House not the president (which wildly distorts the process) do you think the folks emoji serve Trump - Kayleigh and Miller and Meadows aren’t going to keep doing what they’ve been doing all along, especially if no one tells them that Trump doesn’t have presidential powers. And do you think Pelosi and Grassley would want to risk a situation in which no one knows who is in charge. It would be extremely dangerous. Finally, there is no way that the cabinet members who didn’t support invoking the 25th (and its hopelessly naive to think every member of the cabinet already would have supported such action wouldn’t be working with Trump to reverse it?

[Mr.Bill]

80. The only thing Trump knows how to write is his signature.

He doesn't even read executive orders, much less write them.

[LisaL]

63. No.

NT

[LeftInTX]

64. Something is going on with his Social Media accounts

I think someone in the admin had something to do with his accounts being suspended. (Almost like when accounts are shut down by family members)

And now his email is shutdown..like someone is staging an intervention: https://www.democraticunderground.com/100214875888

All the rats are jumping ship...That's really all I know.

When I was watching C-SPAN on Jan 6th, a commentator said the 25th wouldn't be needed if he went to Mar-a-Lago and just hung out for two weeks.

[TwilightZone]

65. No. Everything, and I mean everything, is leaked in this administration.

If it had happened, someone in Trump's camp would have blabbed about it by now.

[milestogo]

66. Could it be that Pence started growing a spine and a pair of balls?

I seriously doubt it.

[tritsofme]

67. Assuming they did, could Acting President Pence issue Trump a full pardon?

[StarfishSaver]

68. Yes, he could

Under the 25th Amendment, he assumes all of the powers of the presidency, which would include the power to pardon.

[Generic Brad]

71. If the 25th falls and no one is there to hear it, did it make a sound?

[UnderThisLaw]

78. Highly unlikely

I hate to rule out anything during what has been the most chaotic Election Day to Inauguration Day period of our lives, and surely we only know of a fraction of what has gone on behind the scenes, the remainder of which we will either never know or have to wait until Bob Woodward writes The Final Days, Trump Administration Era. Nonetheless, I'm having trouble imagining this scenario. It's also possible that Trump has given his resignation to Pompeo, and I would love to read that both for the sense of euphoria that would result and to see how badly he mangles English in that letter, but I don't think that has happened either.

[cbdo2007]

79. I think they have and haven't even told Trump yet

they are just keeping him as quiet as possible and removing all of his contacts with the outside world so nobody knows anything but them.