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BComplex

(7,924 posts)
Sun Jan 10, 2021, 04:00 PM Jan 2021

ELECTION REFORM - It's time. Paper ballots. Counting overseen by bipartisan workers.

And the results take as long as it takes.

This is an issue that many democrats have wanted for a long time. This might be a way for the unifying of Americans to begin. We need to hold these seditionists accountable, and I won't be satisfied until all of them are locked up.

But it makes sense to have a paper trail. We can still use computers to help do an initial counting, but we've seen some strange programming errors in the past that tipped the scales in a way that was the TOTAL OPPOSITE of what was predicted, and did not jibe with exit polls. (In fact, I still don't understand how Mitch McConnell regained his seat. Ok. Maybe.)

So...this is a chance for Americans to make sure that the programming cannot be hacked and make it through, because there will be hand counts as well, and this will serve as an immediate audit. No certification until the teams are through counting.

I think ELECTION REFORM is the place to start. If we have to give ground on photo ID's, or some other means of historical disenfranchisement, then I'm willing to join ANY organization that helps people everywhere to obtain and have a voter identification in order to REGISTER to vote. County Election officials must get the obituaries/death certificates of every dead person forwarded to them, and it has to match the information on the voter registration before ANYONE can be taken off the rolls. There has to be a way of telling which voter by the same name has moved/died, etc. This will be the most difficult task for election officials, but it needs to be done.

But, once registered, every voter who wants to should be allowed to vote by mail. Many states already do this, and it's a better way of voting. (Paper trail, for one. Convenience, for another.) Any discrepancies between eligible voters in a county and the number of ballots cast, instantly calls for an audit if there are more ballots than voters.

Furthermore, NO ELECTED OFFICIAL should for ANY reason, be allowed to eliminate a voter (ANY voter) from the voting rolls without approval of both parties, or an independent commission.

I'm just throwing out there some things both sides have brought up. Stacey Abrams has given me faith that we can reach out to EVERY voter in the country, and help them be registered and assisted and encouraged in every way to cast their ballots.

But to make voting count, we need to have standards of what can be spread over the internet and on the cable news, so we don't have two sets of reality going on at the same time, dividing the country. We can have different opinions, but we should NOT be having two sets of facts. And we need to make sure people know the difference.

It just seems to me that we need to start somewhere, and I've always felt like elections were just not as stable in the USA as they are with our neighbors to the North.

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ELECTION REFORM - It's time. Paper ballots. Counting overseen by bipartisan workers. (Original Post) BComplex Jan 2021 OP
100000000% Bluethroughu Jan 2021 #1
.... BComplex Jan 2021 #2
Yes we need reforms. And votes should start to be counted before election day... servermsh Jan 2021 #3
Absolutely so. BComplex Jan 2021 #4
Make precincts small enough and counting is not a problem. Hermit-The-Prog Jan 2021 #5
Exactly. Verification that who you voted for is the one who is counted is the basis of BComplex Jan 2021 #8
start by making every voter registration an actual form of id. no charge. that solves the id issue. bullimiami Jan 2021 #6
That's an interesting thought. BComplex Jan 2021 #12
Vote by mail central scrutinizer Jan 2021 #7
And the COVID pandemic has proven that it's the best way to have a paper trail. BComplex Jan 2021 #10
Unfortunately the thuglicans in several states (including Georgia) are already backtracking wcmagumba Jan 2021 #9
And propaganda channels on cable and radio are stirring that pot. Those are all BComplex Jan 2021 #13
This message was self-deleted by its author Freelancer Jan 2021 #11
LOL BComplex Jan 2021 #16
Hell, our elections have lost so much trust (even when they're run well)... Silent3 Jan 2021 #14
That's so sad. We have fox propaganda and hate radio to thank for the mess we've become. BComplex Jan 2021 #15
end the madness of all this conflicting metholds to vote . AllaN01Bear Jan 2021 #17
The technical issues with a verifiable voting system are not insurmountable. The politics of it are. Make7 Jan 2021 #18
That was a great article, Make7!!! A long read, but well worth the time! BComplex Jan 2021 #20
Chris Krebs said on 60 Minutes MissMillie Jan 2021 #19
I had no idea it was that high this time! I'm so glad to hear that. eom/ BComplex Jan 2021 #21
It is literally impossible for many poor, elderly, female, minority voters Ms. Toad Jan 2021 #22

servermsh

(913 posts)
3. Yes we need reforms. And votes should start to be counted before election day...
Sun Jan 10, 2021, 04:04 PM
Jan 2021

...as some States already do. This was blocked by Republicans this year in a few States so they could pretend the later votes were suspicious.

BComplex

(7,924 posts)
4. Absolutely so.
Sun Jan 10, 2021, 04:05 PM
Jan 2021

The fact they had to wait until after election day created a lot of room for the propagandists to ramp up the fervor.

Hermit-The-Prog

(32,472 posts)
5. Make precincts small enough and counting is not a problem.
Sun Jan 10, 2021, 04:09 PM
Jan 2021

With paper ballots (physical tokens):

* Paper ballots allow the voter to verify that the ballot represents the voter's vote.

* The general public can verify that the voter cast a ballot, without having to know the vote.

* The general public can verify that the paper ballots are not tampered with while waiting to be counted.

* The general public can observe and verify the count of the ballots.

In electronic voting (abstractions, not physical tokens):

- The voter cannot verify that the internal state of the device represents the voter's vote. (This is true no matter how many pre-election or post-election tests are performed on the device).

- The general public cannot observe or verify that the voter cast a ballot. (The electorate has a critical, prime responsibility to observe and verify this).

- The general public cannot observe or verify the (abstract, invisible, electronic) ballots are true to the forms (state) they were in when cast.

- The general public cannot observe or verify the (invisible, electronic) count of the (abstract, invisible, electronic) ballots.

Elections are far more important than the check-out line at the grocery store, bank or Amazon. Verification is needed by the individual voter, by the rest of the electorate, and by the general public while still maintaining a secret ballot. Physical tokens that human beings can perceive are required.

BComplex

(7,924 posts)
8. Exactly. Verification that who you voted for is the one who is counted is the basis of
Sun Jan 10, 2021, 04:13 PM
Jan 2021

voting to begin with. And for many years we have not had that assurance. Human beings .... without allowing personal bias...need to be tallying the votes for every single candidate.

bullimiami

(12,996 posts)
6. start by making every voter registration an actual form of id. no charge. that solves the id issue.
Sun Jan 10, 2021, 04:11 PM
Jan 2021

then yes. every ballot must be some form of paper ballot.
each needs to be registered so you know exactly how many ballots are cast or unreturned and there can be no duplicates.

the voters should get a receipt with the ID of the ballot they cast and the ability to track it.

each ballot should be public info with votes cast and the ID and a scan of the actual ballot.
they will still be anonymous unless the voter shares their ID that only they know.

anyone or any organization would have the ability to count the ballots on their own and do a manual recount by viewing the scanned ballots.

central scrutinizer

(11,587 posts)
7. Vote by mail
Sun Jan 10, 2021, 04:12 PM
Jan 2021

Works fine in several states already. It’s tried and proven and already on the shelf. Could be in place for 2022 everywhere.

wcmagumba

(2,864 posts)
9. Unfortunately the thuglicans in several states (including Georgia) are already backtracking
Sun Jan 10, 2021, 04:13 PM
Jan 2021

on reforms that had already been made. They want to reduce the number of drop boxes, make mail in/absentee voting more difficult and not available to everyone and even gerrymander the electoral votes within their states by assigning them by (already gerrymandered) district and such, requiring photo ids and other favorite thug ploys...

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/dec/19/republicans-strategize-future-elections-harder-to-vote

BComplex

(7,924 posts)
13. And propaganda channels on cable and radio are stirring that pot. Those are all
Sun Jan 10, 2021, 04:19 PM
Jan 2021

unrealistic reforms, and the propaganda stations need to be disenfranchised!

Response to BComplex (Original post)

BComplex

(7,924 posts)
16. LOL
Sun Jan 10, 2021, 04:22 PM
Jan 2021

We truly are all in the same fight for democracy. And it's a fight we will always continue to fight in the war on authoritarianism.

Silent3

(14,865 posts)
14. Hell, our elections have lost so much trust (even when they're run well)...
Sun Jan 10, 2021, 04:19 PM
Jan 2021

...that we should invite UN monitors. I know that'll never happen (too many people would see it as an indignity), but I still think it would be the right thing to convince our allies that we've escaped becoming a banana republic.

BComplex

(7,924 posts)
15. That's so sad. We have fox propaganda and hate radio to thank for the mess we've become.
Sun Jan 10, 2021, 04:21 PM
Jan 2021

Now they're branching out, thanks to trump, and creating even more insane networks to spread lies.

AllaN01Bear

(16,500 posts)
17. end the madness of all this conflicting metholds to vote .
Sun Jan 10, 2021, 04:26 PM
Jan 2021

. paper ballots only and no electronic machines with out a paper trail and can be locked down weeks before elections and no patches allowed days before .
yes and yess . + billions and billions and billions .

Make7

(8,543 posts)
18. The technical issues with a verifiable voting system are not insurmountable. The politics of it are.
Sun Jan 10, 2021, 04:42 PM
Jan 2021

The stakes of election outcomes are high enough that reform gets bogged down with various interested parties trying to turn it to their advantage – however slight.

A well thought out, detailed election reform plan, available to the public, should be a necessary part of any major political parties' campaign platform. And I mean precinct level detail – not big picture campaign promise platitudes. Everyone seems to agree we need change – so layout exactly what your party is proposing.

I'm a fan of paper ballots and counting ballots at the local level so there are multiple verification paths for the result totals and a way to audit the outcome. But there are also some interesting higher tech solutions that sound good – although they may be more complicated than some people would be willing to put their faith in.

Here's a lengthy article in Wired magazine on one of the possible technological solutions:

A Texas County Clerk’s Bold Crusade to Transform How We Vote

https://www.wired.com/story/dana-debeauvoir-texas-county-clerk-voting-tech-revolution/

BComplex

(7,924 posts)
20. That was a great article, Make7!!! A long read, but well worth the time!
Sun Jan 10, 2021, 05:33 PM
Jan 2021

These guys, and Ms. DeBeauvoir, are awesome!

MissMillie

(38,357 posts)
19. Chris Krebs said on 60 Minutes
Sun Jan 10, 2021, 05:25 PM
Jan 2021

That 95% of ballots were backed up with paper. We really don't have all that far to go to get the other 5%

Ms. Toad

(33,761 posts)
22. It is literally impossible for many poor, elderly, female, minority voters
Sun Jan 10, 2021, 05:38 PM
Jan 2021

to get a voter ID of the kind demanded, no matter how many people volunteer to holp out, so that is a non-starter.

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