Is stripping also violence?

[Charlemagne]

Seriously, Im not trying to troll or to "call out" another thread. I really want to know if stripping, like prostitution, is an example of violence.

I have heard (in a feminism class I took as an undergrad in 2005. Dr. Garner....very good professor) that stripping can be empowering and feminist in nature. However, I have also heard that stripping is demeaning; it objectifies women; and promotes, if not celebrates, the culture of rape.

What exactly is it? It is a trade where someone pays your for a sexual service, much like prostitution. But we have established that prostitution is violence. Is stripping violence as well?


Side note: I dont go to strip clubs or patronize prostitutes.

[NathanTheGreat]

1. No

It's not violence in the least...anyone who tells you otherwise probably has never been socked in the eye.

It is a performance art, strippers are performing on stage and when talking to customers. They are often good actors, because they can actually get men to believe they aren't repulsed by them.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

2. Is posing for the SI swimsuit issue violence?

[Cali_Democrat]

3. Stripping can be extremely violent

See here --->>>http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/Man-Wins-650000-Lawsuit-After-Stripper-Lap-Dance-Injury-104973994.html

[Burgman]

4. Only if one has issues.

[redqueen]

5. I never expected so many people wouldn't grasp the concept of metaphors.

I even posted a link in 143 to try to explain the concept.

Stripping does carry an increased risk of violence, which is why the bouncers often have to walk the women to their cars. It's not as violence prone as prostitution, though.

[zappaman]

7. Umm....

might that have something to do with where strip clubs are allowed to operate?
My wife works at a local charity on some nights and she is always walked to her car.
Are charities violent?

[redqueen]

11. Not all strip clubs are in bad neighborhoods. (nt)

[zappaman]

14. not all strip clubs have to have bouncers accompany women to their car n/t

[midnight]

27. I think you might have hit on a even larger issue here.... Why aren't women safe to walk to their

own cars no matter what neighborhood they are working in...

[Drale]

8. If thats the case

Then going to college also promotes violence because I escort this girl who is in all of my classes around because some guy is stalking her. There is a plus that I like her but I would do so anyway if another asked me.

PS. Before you ask, the police have already been involved but nothing can be proven so they can't do anything, or so they say. I have also had a talk with this guy, and pretty much told him with my intellegence I can think up some pretty terrible things to do to him if he ever hurt her, not my proudest moment but the truth all the same.

[zappaman]

10. so going to college and working at charities promotes violence.

anything else?

[redqueen]

13. I'm glad we're at least addressing rape culture in general...

in this little attempt to pretend that strippers face no more danger than any other women.

As for colleges and violence, look into the problem of rapes on campus. That should be enlightening.

[zappaman]

15. stripers face more danger than other women?

can you back that up?
Oh, I forgot, when you say it, it's just true.

[redqueen]

18. Do you do any research or reading yourself?

Or do you just enjoy pretending that you know what you're talking about?


The results of one randomly selected study:

PART 2: SURVEY DATA

One hundred percent of the eighteen women in the survey report being physically abused in the stripclub. The physical abuse ranged from three to fifteen times with a mean of 7.7 occurrences over the course of their involvement in stripping. One hundred percent of the eighteen women in this study report sexual abuse in the stripclub. The sexual abuse ranged from two to nine occurrences with a mean of 4.4 occurrences over the course of their involvement in stripping. One hundred percent of the women report verbal harassment in the stripclub. The verbal abuse ranged from one to seven occurrences with a mean of 4.8 occurrences over the course of their involvement in stripping. One hundred percent of the women report being propositioned for prostitution. Seventy eight percent of the women were stalked by someone associated with the stripclub with a range of one to seven incidents. Sixty one percent of the women report that someone associated with the stripclub has attempted to sexually assault her with a range of one to eleven attempts. Not only do women suffer the abuse they experience, all of women in the survey witnessed these things happen to other strippers in the clubs. The overwhelming trend for violence against women in stripclubs was committed by customers of the establishments. Stripclub owners, managers, assistant managers, and the staff of bartenders, music programmers or disc jockeys, bouncers, security guards, floorwalkers, doormen, and valet were significantly less involved in violence against the women. According to the women in this study, almost all of the perpetrators suffered no consequence whatsoever for their actions.



Physical Abuse

Customers spit on women, spray beer, and flick cigarettes at them. Strippers are pelted with ice, coins, trash, condoms, room keys, pornography, and golf balls. Men pitched a live guinea pig and a dead squirrel at two women in the survey. Some women have been hit with cans and bottles thrown from the audience. Customers pull women’s hair, yank them by the arm or ankle, rip their costumes, and try to pull their costumes off. Women are commonly bitten, licked, slapped, punched, and pinched. See Table 1 Frequency of Physical Abuse.

http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/stripc2.htm


It's a small sample, but go find another study which contradicts these findings. Show me how many strippers have been surveyed and said that they never encountered such things.

[seabeyond]

28. but this is the point. call it what it is instead of making it pretty so there is no thought

and there are not stupid comments like it is empowering to the women.

thank you

[lildreamer316]

36. It was empowering to me.

I enjoyed it thoroughly. It gave me more confidence in my body and in my self,although I was not really suffering from a problem there.

I spent 14 years in the business.

[cliffordu]

40. If anyone tried this shit in the club I go to they'd need an ambulance.

The dancers, the regulars and the bartender would all make it a teaching experience.

[RZM]

50. I have't been to a strip club in many years

But from what I remember, any funny business and you're going to be tossed out on your ass in seconds. Probably second only to casinos on the security front.

[cliffordu]

62. YEP - Mine is a craptastic little neighborhood bar that

just happens to have dancers.

It's a great spot to hang out, and I count the owner, the bartenders and several of the dancers as friends.

We pet sit for each other, commiserate when hearts are broken and talk about our lives.

Clothing or the lack thereof has nothing to do with these things.

[evilkumquat]

6. Comparing consensual stripping to rape cheapens the severity of that crime.

How many people know or have actually spoken to strippers?

Certainly some women are coerced into the industry and many hate themselves for doing it.

But there are plenty of women who enjoy the job or are at least willing to do something they hate for the financial rewards, just like many of the rest of us stuck in dead-end jobs.

I knew a dancer that paid for her college and was close to paying cash for her home after only a few years in the business. She told me that the work was draining at first and she had to get drunk every night for a while, but eventually she got good at it and was happy she was so financially independent. And this girl danced in Midwest strip clubs, not fancy, upscale Las Vegas or Atlantic City venues.

Yes the work is very demanding and the turnover rate is high, but it's also a choice made by most dancers.

Personally, I can't help but envy those who had their numbers picked in the genetic lottery that they have such an opportunity for high pay for a relatively low skill set requirement.

[CrispyQ]

25. The OP didn't compare stripping to rape, he/she said,

"and promotes, if not celebrates, the culture of rape."

It's a valid point. Read post #18 & tell me that this doesn't contribute to a culture that views women as objects to be used & abused however a man wants.

Perhaps if women made equal pay & had equal opportunities as men, there wouldn't be so many willing to shed their clothes, to be spit upon, so they can earn a living.

Your last sentence makes me want to vomit.

[evilkumquat]

42. Any association of consensual exotic dancing to rape is insulting.

Plenty of dancers love what they do and make good money.

Frankly, if ANYONE is being exploited by stripping, it's the lonely schmucks who blow $300 for a couple hours of emotionless lap dancing.

I've always felt the legal sex industry preyed more on men than women.

[lildreamer316]

41. And what is unfortunate

about what you said (it being a relatively low skill set requirement) is that it is NOW true. But it did not used to be so. The business, like many corporatized ones in this day and age, has really become what many have always believed it to be...a meat market. 'Twas not always so, however.

It would take me all night to comprehensively explain what kind of skill set one needs to truly be successful in the business of exotic entertainment,but we can whittle it down to good salesmanship. While naked.

I worked my first two years completely sober, and I enjoyed almost all of my 14 years of exotic dancing. If you hate it, to be honest you really should not do it; but these days I can't fault anyone for doing what they need to do to survive. I've never hated it,but I've been out for years.My husband still djs at one, and it is much more draining and demanding than it used to be. Again, more due to corporate management styles for profit margins, than any other reason.

[obamanut2012]

9. It is often a financial necessity for women

Which is what I think the real question is for all of us, as a society.

I suggest everyone read the chapter on going to a strip club in Norah Vincent's "Self-Made Man."

[Major Nikon]

12. The answer is our society sucks as a whole

If you are willing to put in a full days work, regardless if it's flipping burgers or working on a pole, you should be entitled to wages and benefits that keep you above the poverty level at the least and provide for the basic necessities of life. Other countries which are more highly evolved have figured this one out which should be a no-brainer to begin with.

[seabeyond]

16. a woman stands there naked, a man clothed. man holds dollar for entertainment for her to eat.

where is her empowerment?

[Charlemagne]

17. Do you have access to JSTOR

If so, I can probably dig up the articles and you can access them.

Essentially (and Im not doing it justice with my rhetorical skills), the woman gets the guy to give up his money simply because she is unclothed. The women is the focal point and the one with the power. Having that power is....empowering.

Again, female PhDs in women's studies programs wrote on it so you can yell at them.


also, she probably doesnt eat the dollar because it isnt food.

[seabeyond]

19. am i yelling? really? the man is not vulnerable. the woman is. the man taunts with a dollar

the performance in order for her to eat. unless you provide some reasonable manner the man is not empowered, besides she is naked, lol, then it does not cut it. he has the power. he has the control. she is dependent on him to eat.

[Charlemagne]

20. I didnt mean "yell"

No you weren't and i didnt mean it like that. Again, harder to convey meaning over the typed word.

The scholars were arguing that being naked does not reduce her ability to have power. It increases it because he is the object of desire and can act upon it however she sees fit. They need her. She can toy with it. They described it in those (and other) terms.

So the clothes issue wasnt, as they say, something that negates the female's power.

I dont care if you agree or disagree. Thats just what the PhDs said. No sweat off my back.

[seabeyond]

21. thank you. i appreciate that. i get it a lot. mad, yell, hysterical. lol. a trend.

thank you for the clarification.

some phd's. one phd? one phds opinion? and many more that would scoff. need a little more than a remembered opinion.

she is vulnerable. he has money. he can degrade her, be vulgar and crude, entice her to demean herself more and more for a buck to eat and pay bills. and she has to take it and smile. to get the bcuk. to eat.

it is her right to do it. many times out of necessity. but it is wrapping a pretty bow on it to say she is empowered. she is not. she is servicing and being paid for it.

[redqueen]

22. They need her?

She's the one who needs them, for money. They get to pick and choose the dancers who get the money. I don't know how that puts her in any control at all.

Now I'm interested. I'm pretty sure I still have JSTOR access, I hope so anyway. If you can provide the publication or name of the study and author I will try to find it later. Thanks.

[Charlemagne]

23. Ill try and fish it up

Send me a pm if I dont get to it by the end of the day. Im doing my syllabus and getting everything together for the semester.

[redqueen]

24. I will at some point.

I'm fairly forgetful but I will remember eventually!

[CrispyQ]

26. He's there for entertainment; she's there to make a living.

Yeah, I can see how that would make the woman the one with the power.

[tnvoter]

29. if she's an adult who is not trafficked or pimped out

she made the decision HERS. I think that kind of freedom -- to be able to make that choice -- is empowerment.

[CrispyQ]

30. Just because you have a choice, doesn't mean you're empowered.

What's the motivation behind her decision? Pay is the reason I hear most often. It sure can't be cuz it's fun to work around rude, drunk men who think because she is a stripper they have the right to grope & grab her. Read post #18 for more info on this empowering line of work for women.

Maybe if women had the same pay & opportunities men have, fewer would resort to this line of work.

[lildreamer316]

31. The motivation behind MY decision to do exotic dance

was pure unadulterated curiosity. I wanted to know what it was all about. I found it to be an absolutely fascinating microcosm of society in several different ways. And yes, I did find it empowering. It gave me confidence in my body. I was already ok with interacting with people.

I spent 14 years in the business starting in 1994. Enjoyed almost all of it.

A book could be written about what it is really all about, but I am no writer.

It was my CHOICE. I dropped out of college in '92. I had highly educated parents. I had a wonderful childhood; no abuse. Both mother and father present for the whole of the childhood, so no 'daddy issues'. I am not a drug addict nor an alcoholic.

I met all kinds of people there; many who are still my friends; a couple who are still my good friends. I married one of my djs. He does not make much in this economy, but makes enough that I can stay home with our son. I have managed my money so that I have no credit cards and no car or house payment (also due to some other fortunate circumstances).

I did not have to 'resort' to that line of work. However, I worked with many women for whom it was one of, if not the only viable option for them to make a decent living and/or support their family. I will mention,however, that just like many other professions, the money has fallen WAYYY down since the 90s and even early 2000's. These days, we often say that what 'regular' people believed to be true about strippers is now actually true. If you want to make money these days you have to get pretty dirty. It's become a whole different animal and is no longer the kind of place to experience what I did.

[NeedleCast]

67. I find it interesting that the DU women who are most outspoken against stripping

never respond to you.

Why do you think that is?

[HappyMe]

68. Good point.

[MineralMan]

69. I've also noticed that you're not getting replies

from some people here. I'm not sure I understand that, really. It seems to me that you're the only person in the thread who can discuss this with real knowledge of what exotic dancers experience.

[treestar]

33. There could be some imbalance though

Men are free to make that choice too. But do they have equal opportunity? Only for bachelorette parties!

[Taverner]

54. Same thing could be said for any non-union construction job

Which is why I think Prostitutes should have unions

[Kellerfeller]

64. By that logic

No actors are empowered. Especially ones who get naked in movies.

So Matt Damon (Or AAAHnold, years ago), commanding millions of dollars while making a living, is the one who isn't empowered? Really?

[CrispyQ]

65. If you can't see the difference between

Matt/Arnold being naked, for one scene, in one movie, on a movie set, surrounded by cinema professionals, and a woman stripping five nights a week, surrounded by assholes who think she's a slut & doesn't deserve to be treated civilly, then I give up.

Actresses who portray strippers, are not thought of at all in the same context as the actual strippers they are portraying.

[Kellerfeller]

66. You said "He's there for entertainment; she's there to make a living."

Actors are in the same situation. She does have the power. If he doesn't produce $$, she goes and dances in front of someone else and doesn't deal with him.

OK, that last part is an assumption. I've never been to strip club. I just never saw the point in paying to get all hot and bothered and not be able to do anything about it.

[evilkumquat]

43. She doesn't have to strip.

If it's so degrading, she can always find a job in fast food or retail.

[treestar]

32. No and we have male ones

My patriarchal old fashioned relatives love to congratulate feminists when there is a down side to equality, such as a female pilot in the Air Force getting killed.

But then there's the new exploitation of men by women to make up for it - male strippers and such.

[lildreamer316]

35. Oh, and you know what's crazy?

Of course having been an exotic entertainer for 14 years, I have had a lot of male friends in the biz who stripped. It is WAYYY harder for them.

The standards for touching and grabbing in a male strip club are non-existent. The women are allowed to grab, smack, pull, kiss and etc. at ANY time on any man, anywhere. And they do, with impunity.

Male strippers work four times as hard as female strippers at the same job. Now, they also usually make twice or three times the money on average per show/night than a female entertainer. But the men I knew had a burnout problem. Most of them could do it for 5 to 7 years, and then they would either never want to do it again, or would take a loooooong break.The format for a male strip show or in a club is much more demanding than for their female counterparts; requiring a 'theme' every time they appear on stage; including full costumes and props. Couch and table dances do exist just as they do in a female club,but these are often only squeezed in between costume changes for the next stage show. If I recall correctly, on a typical night a dancer performs between 2-5 shows.

[Taverner]

39. And not only that, they have to keep these insane diets

A little padding on a female stripper is OK (AS IT SHOULD BE!!!!!)

But for dudes, if you aren't a body builder, you aren't shit

[Scout]

56. hmm, the 3 or so times i saw male strippers, we weren't allowed to touch them...

(and once i saw them up close, i sure didn't want to). and they would do this stupid fucking thing where they grab your head and pull your face fast to their crotch.... hey, asshole, when i'm the one paying you bet your ass i'm not gonna be putting my face in your crotch. grab me like that again and you'll pull back a stump.

oh, and the table dance, what a scream!! they come to the table and do their little dance on the stool, then they'd squat down close and stretch their dick out of their g-string and show it to you all furtively, like that was supposed to make us hot or something. i laughed!

and then there were the women who were getting on their knees in front of these guys and putting the money into their g-strings with their teeth. gross, have some self-respect. and again, if i'm paying, i'm not the one getting on my knees.

i'm over the "excitement" of seeing strippers. the drinks are weak and overpriced, the dancing was almost laughable for most of the guys (some could actually dance). if i'm gonna waste my money, it won't be on strippers.

oh, it's been probably close to 10 years since the last time i went... twice in the us and twice in canada.

[lildreamer316]

59. Oh, I'm not saying

that encouraging such behavior isn't part of what the male strippers do. But it's a paradox for them..it's part of the job, but it's a serious problem for them in the end. It's, ironically, part of the mostly-unspoken double standard that implies that men don't ever mind being grabbed, groped, and the like.

Strangely (to some) I feel exactly the same way you do. I don't want my head grabbed and forced into his crotch; I don't enjoy getting on my knees and putting in a dollar with my teeth, etc. I find it embarrassing and crass. I don't want to treat the man in that way..it feels cheap. Just as I would not want the same done to me.He is not a side of beef. I may see him as a sexual entity, but as something to fuel my fantasies only. I greatly respect the effort and time they spend on their bodies to get them in shape, and the effort and time they spend on their stage shows.

[lildreamer316]

34. If you have not been in the industry you can't really judge it.

Sorry. I've been involved in MANY of these discussions here on DU and on other sites, as well in the real world. After much back and forth, it's kind of like those that don't really grasp what it's like to be a waiter or a bartender or cashier,etc. in the service industry. I am not saying everyone should work in the sex industry once in their lives, (although I do believe that about the service industry); but there is just SO MUCH that goes on in the subtext; so much that you can't really understand unless you work within it on a daily basis. Different people will have different experiences, but it's just not black-and-white sexual abuse and degradation. Well, it wasn't when I was in it. It can be worse now, for a long list of reasons.

[seabeyond]

37. thanks for your two posts.

i have always appreciated your no holds bar on this subject. you said something a couple years ago i remember and respected.

it was a stripper thread and the argument of respecting the stripper. yada yada yada.... in that i dont remember the gest of it. you said... we in the strippin business dont want it respectable. we like it as is.

understanding that you were not referring to the situation today you speak of. but you didnt want to wrap it up in a bow that it wasnt. you were a stripper, and not needing to prettify it. you know what i mean.

the good, bad and ugly of it, that was the world you found so interesting.

"It can be worse now, for a long list of reasons."

i would like to hear what you think.

[lildreamer316]

46. Oh goodness.

Thanks, and thanks for remembering that, but it *may* have been TorchTheWitch who said that ..we tend to have similar replies on threads like this. But either way, yes...I found it all interesting, even the parts that were not so pleasant. That's life, that's real, that's humanity.

Why is it worse now?

Well, it really IS a loooooong list of reasons, but it can be boiled down to corporate mismanagement..like so many other business today, ironically. The biz has become more and more mainstreamed. Everyone saw how much money those who had small chains in the late 80s and early 90s were making, and it attracted those who wanted to make big conglomerates. There are now several top corporations who own between 15 to 80 clubs apeice, all over the US and in many countries abroad.Just as in other kinds of business, this lead to streamlining of standards of operations, multiple managers in many clubs, and a heavy emphasis on profit margins over any other consideration (there are at least two publicly traded corps in the biz that I know of,maybe more). So of course, it ends up that the actual work environment has become a lot harder to deal with for your average employee.

Dancers are usually considered independent contractors, and we do sign such a contract upon hire. Djs are sometimes considered that also,but most these days are considered employees, as are the waitresses and floor hosts/bouncers. (A good point: djs are now more often considered employees so that the managers/owners have more control over what they do. This is important to the big picture. Bouncers, on the other hand,may eventually be relegated to contractor status because of the tendency for ppl to sue the club/corp after being forcibly thrown out)

Because dancers are independent contractors, we PAY a house fee to work every night. This means we pay the house between (depending on club and city) $15-$300 to work. Sometimes this is demanded at the beginning of shift. This money goes straight into the club's coffers, so of course it behooves any management type that wants a promotion to hire as many girls as possible, no matter what attitude, what condition (drug addicted, prostitution convictions, etc.); or what appearance. This, in turn, peoples the clubs with entertainers that do not have the skill set to provide good *entertainment* (yes, dear readers, I do mean that, lol!); as well as ones that will do anything for a dollar. This trend has lead to a business that is now full of girls (it seems the average age is lower every year) that really do have absolutely no self-respect; who have no respect for co-workers; who do not understand that one is not selling sex but a fantasy (so they sell actual sex); and managers who simply don't care; as long as the house fee is paid. It leads to overcrowding of girls in any given club, which brings each girl's opportunity for nightly earnings way down. It leads to overworked girls (going in more shifts to make up for the decreased earning capability of each shift) which leads to burnout and general disgust with the job (assuming you could enjoy it in the first place). It leads to heavier alcohol and drug use by these overworked girls. It leads to irritated coworkers such as housemoms, waitresses, bouncers and djs, who have to deal with managers who pressure them to keep the girls happy no matter what; so they girl count does not go down.

Of course with the spread of clubs, that means that an entertainer has many more choices than she did ten years ago when it comes to employment. But because of the mainstreaming of stripping (in music videos; corporate expansion and partly also because of the economy tanking); this means many,many more girls entering the biz because they think it is easy money and they want to be just like the girls on the video. They don't care about anything but making the money, and the fastest way to the first buck. It's sales.
In good sales, you build on your last sale. You create lasting, returning customers; instead of ripping off the customer the first time so that he has no desire to return. It is, pure and simple, a long sale. The game is to get the most money out of someone over a period of time,and to make the customer feel he got value for his dollar. These girls just grab-and-go, and the fastest way to the customer's dollar these days is to offer some sort of sex. And to offer it cheaper than the next girl.

Now, lest it seem as if I am completely blaming the girls I am referring to here for the woes of the industry, I believe the buck stops with the owners. They, like the others of the 1% we regularly lambast here, have put profit over anything else, and I believe have damaged the earning capacity of the industry majorly. They are short-sighted and greedy. They've overpopulated almost every major and most minor cities in America with a plethora of strip clubs,numbing the average customer to the experience and creating an environment where drugs and sex are so commonplace and accepted that not only has the original fun been lost,but the local vice can't keep up. *This* has lead to much stronger laws being considered and in many places passed, which in most cases hurts the bottom of the totem pole (the dancer, and other tipped employees) more than anything else. It creates an atmosphere where a dancer, in order to make what she needs to, will more often cross her personal boundaries . It also carries the risk of being busted by the vice/police for infraction of these more stringent rules. Then one is really up a creek w/out a paddle..being an independent contractor, the club can deny all legal responsibility for your behavior, and leave you to swing in the wind. I've seen this happen because a girl touched her rear end. On the cheek.

And to attempt to return to the original topic of the thread (sorta); this mainstreaming and overpopulation of clubs has lead to, of course, an increase in violence against entertainers. Because the managers are overworked, unqualified, or just don't care, they don't look out for the girls and do not instruct their floor hosts and bouncers to enforce the no-touching rules (that exist in almost every club). This just completes the circle of problems by reinforcing in the girls' minds that no one cares/they are not worth caring about. Customers see the laxness and take advantage. Nothing is done about it,because the corporation,having spread itself so thin with so many clubs, needs every customer dollar they can keep in the doors. This is the crux of the violence problem.

There's more,but I'm sure how you can see that this would create a perfect storm of bullshit-that-I-sure-as-hell-don't-want-to-deal-with-now. LOL.

Unionization is another topic for later. I'm not particularly in favor,but it may be necessary.

Note that as entertainers we usually also have to tip the dj and the bouncers, and sometimes the housemoms and floorhosts.

[seabeyond]

47. i think i have heard a lot of this before. i dont know if it is reading

or listening to you and i know i have listened to torch about some of this.

but you were very good in getting into the specifics. thanks.

since you have been in it so long, have you seen a shift in the customer reception from the past. has their expectations and behaviors changed. i can understand the laxness causing issue. the point of any business is to have strong, consistent rules and i would imagine that is an absolute with this business where so much could go wrong.

on edit... and i get the tipping everyone. i was a waitress. was hard busting ass for the tip and then tipping all. but they are part of the whole. so i had to set mind to generous, lol, to do it gracefully

[lildreamer316]

58. Yes, you've hit on it exactly.

Because the rules do need to be so absolute,but are not enforced, the customer base has changed dramatically. They have been conditioned to expect everything for nothing.They feel entitled to do or say almost anything to an entertainer simply because they gave them a dollar, or even a compliment.They come and sit for hours, nursing a single on-special beer or well-liquor cocktail; staring and grabbing and generally being a drain. On couch dances, they expect the world for $25. Some people blame the girl for putting herself in that situation. I don't agree, but as an observant person I would not put myself in that situation today.

It's a quandry for me these days when I get into a discussion like this, because my personal experience was good, and something I would not trade for the world. But I have to admit freely that the business is now one of almost complete degradation and not generally a good place for any woman (Torch may not agree with me on this; she still works regularly if I am not mistaken). It saddens me in great measure to admit that we've come to embody what everyone always thought we were, and what many advocates for women's rights have believed. At one time it was an empowering, entertaining and really fun choice of employment; an almost Hunter S. Thompson-esque part of the American experience, that was worth exploring. Now...well. My husband has characterized several clubs he's worked at as 'the Wal-Mart of strip clubs'. I think that about covers it.

I don't mind the tipping. Where it becomes a problem is, again, the corporatizaton of the clubs. If we have a ridiculously high house fee, then we are obligated to pay that first. Then it becomes harder and harder for us to tip the people that really help us out..our dj, our waitress, our bouncer. It becomes an issue of safety,because if a bouncer feels under appreciated by a girl, he will be less likely to interfere if she's being sexually harassed or groped. Also, it shows that the owners are pawning off the responsibility of paying a living wage to their employees on the entertainers, by expecting them to tip said employees.

And now, some clubs are requiring the girls to tip the managers. Because they don't want to pay their managers a living wage either. So it just gets worse...

I still believe in the viability of the business to be a fun and interesting place to work. I believe there are people who can work in the biz who will find it empowering and enlightening. But, like many things in business today, the model needs to change, drastically.

[seabeyond]

61. ya.

Last edited Wed Jan 11, 2012, 09:00 AM - Edit history (1)

i listened to torch some and she has said a lot of what you say. i dont know if she is still working in it, but the last time she talked about it she was not saying a lot of nice stuff.

i think in the past, with so little access to porn, the men were awfully damn appreciative of seeing the stripper , but today, the way women have been so over exposed in the world of porn, there is just an over all disrespect.

thank you again lib. for giving me all this info. i had a couple girls work for me. one had to get out of stripping. she didnt like the feel of it. she had support and love from her hubby. a young son. the other so damn fragile and messed up. a friend of theirs would come over and we would have lunch and they would talk about it. the one that was messed up ended up going back. the other walk away grounded and fine.

my nieces mother was a stripper. she was a user. and not just people. she was mean. hated men. she had no problem making sure everyone hurt when she was around.

there are all kinds of experiences in it.

[Taverner]

38. Aw Jeez...not this shit again...

Sex-Negative IS NOT FEMINISM!!!!

Why do I have to keep saying this???

My opinion is that people want to ban stripping, prostitution and porn because they hate women, and want to limit their choices.

Fuck them.

[evilkumquat]

44. Absolutely!

My fellow liberals are always screaming "Pro Choice" and privacy in the bedroom because consenting adults should be left alone.

Why doesn't that courtesy extend to the legal sex industry?

[Taverner]

52. Agreed. Women should be able to make money any way they want.

If you don't agree, then you are NOT A FEMINIST.

[seabeyond]

53. geez tav, it gets old you making up your own argument and then yelling it out.

repeating, again.... not one person has said that a woman does not have the right to choose to be a stripper. NOT ONE.

[Taverner]

57. Just sick of the puritanism - And that is what they are saying, between the lines

'There oughta be a law!' is the flaw here.

I think all women should be able to choose their profession.

I think all PEOPLE should be able to choose their profession.

I think EVERYONE should unionize.

I say this as a tech worker, in an industry that never unionized. And it cost us. Can you say 'Bengalored'?

[seabeyond]

60. no tav, that is not what they are saying. again, you are making up your argument

where has anyone discussed making a law in this thread about stripping?

we were talking about the industry and the effects on women. that is a different discussion than telling people they cannot be strippers.

now, i am going to go join hubby.

[Scout]

48. ah, "sex-negative" ... DU's favorite, false accusation....

oh, wait, or is the favorite pearl clutchers? panties in a twist? hysterical? prudes? victorians? control freaks? ugly man-hating feminazis who can't get laid? oh a girl just can't keep up these days.

[Taverner]

51. If you have a problem with sex, you have a problem with yourself

Seriously

Get help

[seabeyond]

55. here you are again, making up shit about someone you dont know then lecturing what she needs to do

what was this about a woman making her choices? even if they are made up ones by you

[Scout]

63. *I* don't have a problem with sex...

despite the continual accusations of same thrown at me and others.

seriously, grow the fuck up or get some help yourself. or you can go jack off into a tube sock, for all i care.

[tabasco]

49. Yeah, pretty much everything is violence,

except the NFL, where you get fined for that shit.