To whoever burned an American flag in Seattle....

[garybeck]

At this point it is not clear to me what's going on in the Pacific Northwest, with these rallies at ICE and the Democratic headquarters. News is reporting they are left wing extremists, antifa,... But are they really lefties? or are the righties pretending to be lefties (as some here have suggested).

I'll say this, I DON'T CARE WHO it is.

I stand against destruction of property, smashing windows
I stand against violence
I stand against burning our flag
I stand against any organization that is "anti-government"

these kinds of actions accomplish nothing, other than to give Fox News lots of photos and videos and opportunities to say "see, look at the radical left violence"

"one protester said watching Biden call for unity during his inauguration felt like an insult to those harmed by racism, xenophobia and homophobia."

I agree those issues need to be addressed, but give me a freaking break. I completely disagree that Biden is insulting anyone with his efforts and rhetoric. What exactly would they like him to do in one day? I'm impressed and proud of the things Biden did in his first day, and while mostly symbolic, his orders address each of those issues directly and show a commitment to change in course, in the right direction. That is all we can ask for at this point.

burning the flag, attacking the democratic headquarters, or even ICE, or criticizing Biden now for not doing enough, on his first day of office is pure stupidity. what do these people want? it seems that they want nothing short of the same thing the capitol rioters on the 6th want: to take down our government and start over.

If you really want change, now is our opportunity. Now is the time to speak your mind peacefully and have your voice heard because the people in charge agree with your ideals. We should respect the institutions because the institutions are the means we have to make change happen. To shun the whole system at a time like this is stupid.

People are more apt to listen and respond to your concerns if you are respectful. No one is going to listen to a word you have to say if you're burning our flag.

The American flag should be raised high today.
Burning it at a time like this is shameful.

that's my two cents.

[The empressof all]

1. It's my understanding they are anarchists

Black bloc anarchists are to the far left as the kkk and proud boys are to far right. At times they seem to merge and rage riot. They will find a hot button to draw more mainstream folks in then start acting up. They destroyed the democratic headquarters last night. Not the normal lefty antifa or BLM folks. These loosely formed cells have been active for years in the PNW. They are not helpful to Democrats nor do they care to be

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_bloc

[Hortensis]

3. Yes. Anarchists, nihilists. They're into destruction. Not only are they NOT

fighting fascism or racial injustice, they see social problems as facilitating their goal of bringing our nation down. They want to grow them.

These guys are "accelerationists." The term originated in Marxism and referred to activities that would hasten the destruction of governments and replacement with socialism, but it's been since adopted by far-right extremists. They're accelerating civil disorder.

[nolabear]

4. Accelerationists is a good term. It's exactly what they are.

I’m north of the city now but lived in Seattle for many years.starting with WTO these little bastards have inserted themselves into every protest from May Day marches to BLM to union protests. They like to break things and get attention.

They care not one bit for any cause. They’re just high on destruction. They’re playing sides off against one another.

Seattle’s done with them on all fronts I think. I hope legit protest groups band together to disavow and help stop them.

[Hortensis]

28. Glad to hear about Seattle. We need to break these groups. Interestingly,

apparently some who join extremist groups can be distracted away by something new in their lives, job, girlfriend, four-wheeler, whatever. Not all are hard-cores.

[stopdiggin]

8. yes. lets STOP assigning these people a platform

or a real coherent agenda. There is almost zero legitimate political intent here. It is nihilism and destabilization.

(and we're quite destabilized enough -- thank you!)

[fearnobush]

2. Amen

These Extremists burning flags and breaking shit are no different than extremists removing American flags and replacing them with MAGAt flags and breaking shit. They need to be locked up just same as MAGAts for breaking shit.

[Progressive Jones]

5. Thank You. nt

[JonLP24]

12. There is a big difference

With a protest with some property damage compared to a failed coup attempt by the far right which was also organized by powerful people including the former President.

They are not the same.

[wnylib]

15. Yet.

Don't give them a chance to become the same because they surely will if not stopped now. They offer nothing and accomplish nothing but chaos and destruction.

[JonLP24]

17. Stop how?

The left wing in the West coast are a big reason why the West Coast are safe blue states. There are right wing extremist groups in Western Washington & Oregon. Proud Boys showed up to Portland many times and they were the same group at the Capitol.

Groups like Antifa wouldn't exist if not for Trump or Trump supporters because they tend to recognize the threat of fascism sooner than most people.

---

Police 3X More Likely To Use Violence Against Liberal Protesters Than Far-Right
New statistics from the U.S. Crisis Monitor and the Armed Conflict Location and Event Data Project (ACLED) show that police used violence against leftwing protesters three times as often as against rightwing demonstrators

Black Lives Matter, Indigenous, anti-war, and other progressive activists reacted with a complete lack of surprise to data reported by The Guardian on Thursday that shows U.S. police are three times more likely to use violence against left-wing and social justice protesters than against those on the political right.

The report, based on statistics from from the U.S. Crisis Monitor—a database created this spring by researchers at Princeton and the nonprofit Armed Conflict Location and Event Data project (ACLED)—found that the overwhelming majority of the thousands of total protests across the nation over the past year have been peaceful.

While most demonstrations in general were not attacked by police, officers used tear gas, rubber bullets, beatings with batons, and other violence against protesters at 511 left-wing events as opposed to just 33 right-wing ones since April 2020, according to ACLED data.

https://crooksandliars.com/2021/01/report-police-3x-more-likely-use-violence

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100214946378

DHS draft document: White supremacists are greatest terror threat

White supremacists present the gravest terror threat to the United States, according to a draft report from the Department of Homeland Security.

Two later draft versions of the same document — all of which were reviewed by POLITICO — describe the threat from white supremacists in slightly different language. But all three drafts describe the threat from white supremacists as the deadliest domestic terror threat facing the U.S., listed above the immediate danger from foreign terrorist groups.

“Foreign terrorist organizations will continue to call for Homeland attacks but probably will remain constrained in their ability to direct such plots over the next year,” all three documents say.

Russia “probably will be the primary covert foreign influence actor and purveyor of disinformation and misinformation in the Homeland,” the documents also say.


https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/04/white-supremacists-terror-threat-dhs-409236

I don't think both sides are the same.

[wnylib]

20. What they share in common is

a preference for violence to achieve whatever their goals are.

How does the destruction of Democratic headquarters serve the left?

I do not believe, and never will believe, that anarchists are the reason that the Pacific NW is blue. NY is blue. New England states are blue. California is blue. Georgia has just turned blue. None of them owe this to the extremist tactics of anarchists.

The people of Georgia faced political corruption and police and sheriff brutality as bad as or worse than the Pacific NW. They did not achieve change through anarchy. They achieved it through the hard work of Stacy Abrams and the people who worked with her to SUPPORT government - a government without the corruption and brutality they opposed. They achieved a worthwhile system without violence, chaos, destruction, and anti government sentiments.

Extreme right and extreme left are flip sides of the same coin - anti democracy.

[JonLP24]

23. I don't blame whoever caused destruction at the Democratic headquarters

On every protestor there. I didn't say it was the tactics though there is nothing wrong with protests but they vote. The political culture in the Pacific NW is more progressive than most places in the US. I lived in the Sea-Tac area and I prefer it to my home state.

It is like with BLM protests. If there was an opportunistic looter I didn't blame the entire movement or think their demands were unworthy of listening to. I already agreed with their positions when it comes to policing and racial injustice.

I posted who the DHS thinks is the biggest terror threat which was dated before January 6th which the extreme right proved their point. There was also a plot to kidnap Whitmer from the far right. I disagree they are the same whether that is a flip side of a coin.

[wnylib]

29. What about the attack on the Capitol?

Do you blame only the people who made it inside, or do you hold the ones who supported and encouraged the attempted coup and crowded on the outside pushing forward responsible, too?

There are a lot of questions about who was actually responsible for destructions at BLM protests.

Extreme left and extreme right are definitely two sides of the same coin. Extreme right, as in the fascism of Nazi Germany, and extreme left, as in the communism of the USSR, are mirror images of totalitarianism. They both make democracy impossible.

The opposite of authoritarian, abusive government is not the absence of government. The opposite of totalitarianism from either end of the political spectrum is democracy.

Anarchist movements create a vacuum that leads to one extreme or the other. They do not serve the interests of a stable, successful democracy.

[pazzyanne]

25. Well said!

I'm on the same page that you are. When protesters become rioters, they are breaking the law, NOT exercising their first amendment rights.

[stopdiggin]

6. the fourth line of your creed

kind of gets to the crux of it (for me)

I stand against any organization that is "anti-government"

There are of course all manner of degree, nuance -- twist, turns and takes ....
But if you're against our government -- then you're primarily in the same camp as the people that tried so mightily to de-legitimize the election 160 million American citizens participated in 2 months ago. And if that is the creed you march under -- you get no succor, and you are no kin to me.

(and you might want to think about the bedfellows you are currently sleeping with ..)

[Doreen]

7. Like the banner that was in Portland

saying "We are ungovernable" means you are an anarchist. The split second I saw that banner in Portland I knew what they are.

They stand with no one or any law or anything at all.

[TheBlackAdder]

9. While originally a left-leaning principle, anarchists can be sectarian Libertarian w/a fascist bent

.

Some forms of these are trying to bring about a fascist response, to fuel a paramilitary takeover of society.

They want troops on every street corner and a panopticon to monitor everything people do.


===

I light of the fascism that is prevalent in Oregon, Idaho and Washington State, I tend to hold the belief that these people are not left-leaning by any means, but ultra-right leaning fascists.

.

[wnylib]

18. You might be right that they lean fascist.

I also think we should remember that authoritarianism can come from the extreme right or the extreme left. Nazi Germany and the communist USSR were flip sides of the same coin.

[Mariana]

10. Honestly, it's much better if they burn their own flags

rather than burn or otherwise destroy other people's property.

[JonLP24]

11. I'm against property damage & violence

However burning the flag is a free speech issue. Flag burning amendments failed on free speech grounds.

Anyways, I'm more worried about what happened on January 6th.

[Gore1FL]

13. I am not that hung up on symbols

I am more concerned about the CO2 released into the atmosphere.

[BGBD]

14. The left has extremists too

and they can be very bad. The far right is a much, much greater threat right now but far left violence shouldn't be discounted or glossed over as something that can't exist.

Breaking windows and burning a flag, however, isn't the same as blowing up a building.

[ansible]

16. Last year you could get in serious trouble for criticizing the whole CHAZ thing here

[AmyStrange]

19. I agree, but...

-

burning the flag will ALWAYS be a protest option.

Why?

Because it shocks, just like this OP suggest.

If it stopped shocking people, it probably wouldn't be an option anymore.
=============

[DanieRains]

21. What Is Worse Burning Flags Or Paradise / All Of California Burning?

I would never burn a flag, but I come from fire hell, Methow Valley WA.

If it hasn't burned yet, it will burn soon.

[DanieRains]

22. BTW It Was 134 Degrees In California Last Year

We don't need no stinkin' future.

[struggle4progress]

24. I call them libertarians

[Cha]

26. Thank you! I completely agree!

Burning the American Flag is stupid, too. It's the magats who hop to trump who hops the Russia.

We are the Patriots... We want Democracy.. It's our Flag. They have the Fucking trump flag Stormed & Terrorized the Capitol building to prove it.

[JI7]

27. They are the ones that always start causing problems during peaceful liberal protests

[WhiskeyGrinder]

30. Abolish ICE.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

31. "No one is going to listen to a word you have to say if you're burning our flag."

Sounds like burning the flag is exactly what got you to listen to them.