General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI have visited prostitutes, and I don't apologize for it. It was 1971, in a place called Vung Tau.
I was 20 years old and rated R&R after having just spent two months in the A Shau Valley as a part of Operation Lam Son 719. We had been in combat damned near non-stop for most of that time, and I had tagged and bagged friends of mine. I also knew that I would be headed back into the exact same fucking meat grinder after my week at VT. In short, I had no idea if I would ever see 21.
So what did I do? I got laid. Every fucking night.
Am I proud of it? No. But am I embarrassed by it? Again, no.
Have at me.
There wouldn't be prostitution if there weren't a market and a need.
Legalize it.
Ecumenist
(6,086 posts)in the situation you were facing. I understand and Christ's sake, you had no idea if you would see the sun rise the next day when you were in that bloody theatre. Thank God you're here to talk about it. It might not have been what I would advise you to do but you were 20 and facing the horror of a lifetime.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)phleshdef
(11,936 posts)...the right to be one, if thats what they want to be, or to hire one if thats what they want to do. Period.
Fool Count
(1,230 posts)If there were such people, they would go to prostitute colleges to fulfill their "dream".
And I didn't hear of any such educational institutions even in countries where prostitution
is legal.
phleshdef
(11,936 posts)Not everyone is like YOU or like ME.
Its naive and ignorant to say that every prostitute is a prostitute against his or her personal will or out of some dark desperation.
Its also naive and ignorant to say every prostitute is a prostitute because they enjoy sex and want to get paid to have it.
Whether you are talking about prostitutes, strippers, adult film stars, males, females, what have you... you could make a list of reasons of why people become these things and that list would range from one extreme to the other. YES, some people do become prostitutes because its what they WANT to do. There are plenty of prostitutes in areas where its legal that will go on record and proclaim this to your face. And YES, some people do get involved in that kind of work because they are desperate or they are forced into it somehow and thats awful.
Regardless, people need to stop pretending like its either one way or the other and accept the fact that not everyone fucking thinks about the world the way you do.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)One was a high priced part time call girl, a college grad, who had a respectable day job that didn't pay enough money for what she wanted so did weekend "dates" on the side. She retired when she was thirty-five with a really nice bank account. She married and had a family soon after. Her husband knew what her former profession was too. There were a couple of girls I knew that were of that category. Don't know how they ended up.
Then there were the street walker junkies on the other end of the spectrum. These girls were exploited by pimps, boyfriends and in one case her husband. I became the person they called to get them out of jail. There's all kinds of variations in between. Why did I know these women? I was a bartender and there was a topless bar in the same neighborhood of one of the places I worked in. The girls would patronize where I worked in so I got to know them. Not all but some of them were also hookers.
There is a variety of ways to sell yourself for sex to men. Many are exploitive and victimize women, but many are not. I do believe in legalized prostitution with strict laws governing it. Sure there will always be the illegal forms of it, but it at least narrows it down to what is a crime so that the police can go after the gangs or pimps that are victimizing women into these types of prostitution.
Response to 11 Bravo (Original post)
MineralMan This message was self-deleted by its author.
MineralMan
(146,288 posts)and kicking it back to the top. We're still learning how to manage this hosting stuff and interpret the GD Statement of Purpose. My apologies for the inconvenience. Carry on.
11 Bravo
(23,926 posts)I got pretty hot and you were never anything but calm, collected, and respectful. I sincerely say, "Thanks".
MineralMan
(146,288 posts)DU3 is still finding it's level. Occasionally, a thread gets locked, then unlocked after discussion among the hosts, and sometimes with input from the admins. The SOP for GD and other main forums gets refined each time that happens. I don't know if it will ever be understood completely, but we're all trying.
rug
(82,333 posts)FarLeftFist
(6,161 posts)pipi_k
(21,020 posts)how easy is it for people to get all up on their high horses and pass judgement on someone else for something he did 40+ years ago when he was still basically a kid.
It absolutely infuriates me when people smugly say, "Well I would never have done that!!!!"
Yeah. As the song goes, "Walk a mile in my shoes..."
Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)were forced into that life because of living in a war torn country as a means to stay alive or support their families. It is not an unusual occurance during war. I don't fault what anyone did when they were young but because the op has a good memory of it it does not follow necessarily that the women he was with have the same memory. A lot of women in that way had children that were not accepted in the community. I worked a clinic as a volunteer overseas at a military base in the 70's. I gave out the vd packets to men coming back from r and r in the phillipines. Obviously there were a lot of infected prostitutes there and from what I was told lots of very young girls working. These guys got to come back, get treated and go back with their lives but the girls and women left behind did not have that luxury.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)a lot of women would face a violence of a different kind: starvation.
Poverty fuels a lot of prostitution.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)there are so few truly black and white, either/or issues in the world.
People rant on about clothing factories in certain countries where workers are not treated well and making disgustingly pitiful wages.
Alternatives?
Starvation. Death. Prostitution (even for children)
We're not supposed to buy things from other countries, but if we don't, families over there starve.
People think they have all the easy answers, but they don't because there often are no easy answers.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)When the factories close, particularly foreign ones, the populace is even worse off. Their money, what meager little they got, is all gone, and they've got a rotting factory leeching pollutants into the soil. Many factories also sit on land which used to be forest or farmland.
After that, you have even MORE prostitutes in the region, trying to survive in worse conditions than they had before.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)your first sentence is:
As a woman I wonder if those prostitutes were forced into that life because of living in a war torn country as a means to stay alive or support their families.
You don't really know. Nor do I.
Maybe they were, maybe they weren't.
I think I would question whether the OP has a good memory of his experiences with the prostitutes there. No doubt it's all wrapped up in the horror that was Vietnam. Just a way for him...indeed, a whole lot of people...to live another day.
I'm a Baby Boomer myself, and even though I was nowhere near Vietnam at the time, I can't even see footage from the war without sobbing.
Response to 11 Bravo (Original post)
Bunny This message was self-deleted by its author.
book_worm
(15,951 posts)RebelOne
(30,947 posts)Snake Alchemist
(3,318 posts)Saving Hawaii
(441 posts)It's sometimes hard to make ends meet. Worse when bombs are being dropped on your hometown, but there's plenty of people with few opportunities here and everywhere else. Why deny them a living because you think it isn't respectable. Perhaps not the best living, but it ain't much worse (is it at all worse) than being a fry cook at Mickey-Ds.
Snake Alchemist
(3,318 posts)justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)Most women that enter into prostitution do so because of two things--economics and childhood sexual abuse. And when you figure in that a street prostitute makes roughly enough money to buy a rock, they aren't making all this great money people seem to think they make. Yes, there are women who are "escorts" who make more money but guess, what, they are rare and usually are not in the same position the majority of women (and young boys) on the streets are in. Keep in mind, most of the women who are prostitutes are street prostitutes who have to share their $5-20 pay with their pimp. So if you want to claim that's better than working at McDonald's, you go ahead and flounder under that belief (and read this blog post while you're at it: http://vickiesprostitutionblog.blogspot.com/2009/10/how-much-money-do-prostitutes-make-part_12.html)
ADULTS
One million women and girls work as prostitutes.
1% of US women have worked as prostitutes at some point, with four years being an average length of career.
There are 100,000 arrests annually for prostitution.
Of women held at the Cook County Jail during a one-year period, about 75% were first arrested for prostitution.
Of women held at the Cook County Jail in October 2001 and charged with non-violent offenses, 34% were regularly involved in some form of prostitution.
CHILDREN
500,000 to 1.2 million children are involved in child prostitution. There are at least 300,000 male prostitutes under age 16.
Between 300,000 and 400,000 American children and youth are victimized by sexual exploitation each year.
In one study, 1/3 of the women entered prostitution before the age of 15, and 62% of the sample were in prostitution before their 18th birthdays.
Most children enter prostitution at the age of 14.
60% of child prostitutes are first recruited by peers.
96% of prostitutes who entered prostitution as juveniles were runaways. Most stated they had no other option for making money.
http://bit.ly/ABmTxH
TalkingDog
(9,001 posts)Yes, it will still go on illegally. But, barring the 1% giving up some of their tax dollars so that there can be a social safety net, that's never going to change.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Since you're into blog posts, you might want to check this one out also:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bethany-st-james/sexuality-romance_b_1196610.html
Most of the problems associated with prostitution arise because the practice is driven underground either through its criminalization, public perception, or both. The same principle happens with drugs. Advocates for drug criminalization point out all the problems associated with it, yet they fail to acknowledge that many of these problems are a direct result of drug criminalization itself. When you make something illegal, you generally abdicate any effective means of regulating it.
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)and I'm referring to street level prostitution is children running away from home because they've been sexually abused by a guardian/parent/relative and feel they have no choice but to get away from that form of sexual abuse... only to run into the arms of far worse sexual abuse.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)It's a pretty easy argument to make that children should not be involved in prostitution.
Scout
(8,624 posts)being a cum-bucket is such a great way to feed yourself!
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Seriously! And it's not cause most of them were sexually abused, physically abused, etc. So stop saying that!
The level of denial around here is... typical.
I guess next we can expect threads defending sweatshops, cause it's better than starving, and by god they have agency and if they want to do it then that's their choice dadgummit!
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Even if you really could make the case for "most" which is not actually all that easy, you're still left with millions of women and men who enter some type of sexually oriented career of their own free will without harming anyone. Pointing this out often results in the predictable response that one must be an advocate of child rape if they believe that.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)and someone who considers anyone coerced into the underground sex trade to be just so much collateral damage, to be written off and ignored, because heaven forbid we try to change as a society.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)What you're saying is that if anyone is an advocate of civil liberty, they must also be an advocate for any "collateral damage" which results. This is a flawed argument. It is entirely possible to be both for civil liberties and against the problems which may result from some people exercising those civil liberties. Consider the analogy that because I am for alcohol consumption, I must be writing off or ignoring drunk driving. This is easily debunked, yet you're making the exact same argument in regards to sexually oriented workers.
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)What really often happens around here is someone points out the obvious, like my post above you commented on and instead of addressing the very real issue of how poorly prostitutes are treated before they even become prostitutes is turned into the argument your're making now. You're taking no part in a genuine discussion of the actual problem--you just end up attacking or ignoring people who bring in real facts to the debate.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)You can point to problems associated with prostitution all day long and still not make the case that prostitution itself is inherently wrong. What you're saying is that if someone believes in people's right to do something that doesn't hurt anyone else, they must be ignoring the problems associated with some of that activity. This is fallacious and demonstrates dichotomous thinking. Just because I point out that there is nothing inherently unethical about prostitution does not mean I think children should be abused.
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)Yet even if we legalized prostitution the problems associated with it doesn't go away and I'm of the mind that you shouldn't ignore the issues associated with it. Your argument that prostitution doesn't hurt anyone else is simply false. Prostitution is not a victimless crime as many like to claim. I don't know that any street-level prostitute really wants to be a prostitute; she does because she has to survive but that doesn't mean that she isn't a victim. It doesn't mean that a man who hires a street-level prostitute because he wants to go bareback and then goes home to his wife and gives her an STD means it's victimless. As I've stated in several posts now, the majority of prostitutes on the streets have already been victimized with sexual abuse. That in no way says that I think you agree that children be abused, it means I think you don't want to think about the abuse that continues into prostitution.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)I don't have much interest in continuous discussion if one side refuses to be objective. My patience does have limits. If you want to continue to make unreasonable assumptions about my assertions, at some point I'm simply going to invite you to go piss up a rope. If you want to be objective and engage in reasonable discussion, I'm more than happy to participate.
Once again you're pointing out problems that are associated with prostitution rather than prostitution itself. If you really want to address a problem, your first step should be identifying what the actual problem is in the first place. You continuously reference "street-level" prostitution, which is an example of unregulated prostitution. It's silly to assume that advocating for any civil liberty means it should not be regulated. Every civil liberty you have is regulated in some way. Furthermore in order to make your argument you continuously pretend that I don't want to think about the "abuse" or any other problems associated with prostitution. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I think prostitution should be legalized (not just decriminalized) and regulated. I see that as the best and most reasonable way to deal with all the problems associated with prostitution that you've mentioned. That doesn't mean those problems are simply going to disappear, but it does go a long way towards reducing those social issues, especially when you compare that to simply dreaming about prostitution going away.
EOTE
(13,409 posts)How nice of you. And if that's not what you're suggesting, just what ARE you suggesting?
Snake Alchemist
(3,318 posts)EOTE
(13,409 posts)You talked about it as if it's a bad thing, right? I do IT work to survive. If they'd give me a paycheck anyway, I certainly wouldn't be doing it. Do you want to ban IT work as well?
Snake Alchemist
(3,318 posts)EOTE
(13,409 posts)And things which increase due to the war should be what? Eliminated? Many horrible things happen due to wars. Which ways of supporting one's self or one's family should be eliminated? Ones which people normally wouldn't do if a paycheck wasn't provided? That would eliminate 99% of all jobs. This line of thinking is just asinine.
Snake Alchemist
(3,318 posts)EOTE
(13,409 posts)I don't support minors in the sex industry period. And yes, I'm very well aware that in countries where the sex industry is not regulated, there are plenty of minors to be found. That's why it needs to be tightly regulated. Any more strawmen?
Snake Alchemist
(3,318 posts)Men will tell themselves a lot of things to help them sleep at night.
EOTE
(13,409 posts)That still means nothing. Are we to eliminate all jobs which tend to attract employees more likely to have been abused? Does having been abused mean that a woman is no longer capable of choosing her own profession? Logic is tough, ain't it?
Snake Alchemist
(3,318 posts)EOTE
(13,409 posts)How the fuck does this have anything to do with the issue being discussed? Are you capable of following a discussion even in the slightest?
MattBaggins
(7,904 posts)her for pleasure.
If you have money to spare to pay a woman for sex, you could pay her the same money for something less selfish.
EOTE
(13,409 posts)Unfortunately, the world is not a perfect place. People don't always get to choose exactly the profession they want or get to dictate their salary. If it was, I'd be an F1 driver and not an IT worker. And I'm sure you never spend your money on something you actually want, all of your money goes to orphanages in third world countries and you live in a box because of it. Give me a break, if it weren't for strawmen and other logical fallacies, I'd imagine you'd be completely out of ways to make an argument.
yardwork
(61,599 posts)War is all hell.
cliffordu
(30,994 posts)"...I do declare, I took some comfort there...."
To quote S&G.....
Desperate times make for behaviors outside the norm.
Welcome home, brother.
sfpcjock
(1,936 posts)in most places, but goes on everywhere, and puts the women at much greater risk.
Response to 11 Bravo (Original post)
Post removed
RZM
(8,556 posts)I'm no expert on prostitution, but I imagine being the oldest profession, prostitutes have their ways to ensure that they don't get pregnant from every encounter. I imagine many of the children born out of conflict don't come from encounters like this, but from flings/relationships where money doesn't change hands.
Saving Hawaii
(441 posts)That's why I always tip my gf a penny. So she doesn't get pregnant.
MattBaggins
(7,904 posts)handle pregnancy?
I would image it involved a metal object and being held down. The fantasy of "Pretty Woman" has even become part of a mythos of war time prostitution.
Response to Post removed (Reply #15)
Post removed
unionworks
(3,574 posts)Sickening
oneshooter
(8,614 posts)2 tours, 71 and 73. 0311
Raine
(30,540 posts)because of that situation either did that or they and their families would starve. Hopefully the women you used were able to later live a life that wasn't tainted by their war-time experiences.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)The OP may have been going into combat, but these women were living in hell.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)That makes it all ok! We don't have to care about anything else, so long as they decide to do it for whatever reason! Right?
This is progressive! We're letting them choose!
Enrique
(27,461 posts)soldiers also kill people in war, which is not something to judge the soldier for, but it also doesn't mean killing people is right.
MattBaggins
(7,904 posts)Even in war there is legal killing of the enemy and illegal murder.
Robbery would still be illegal for a soldier.
Extortion would be illegal for a soldier.
Torture would be illegal (well it was till that asshat Bush changed that).
Upton
(9,709 posts)at one time or another, in one form or another, for sex. It's going to happen no matter how hard people try to legislate morality. So, lets legalize and regulate prostitution, much like I feel drugs, particularly pot, should be..
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)here it is again. so consistently said and allowed on du. the forum of progressives.
all of us are prostitutes.
one way
or
another.
Occulus
(20,599 posts)Many people, at one time or another, have paid for sex. As much as you hate that, and no matter how bitterly your tears may fall over it, it's a statement of cold, hard fact.
What in the blue fuck does that observation have to do with DU, DU being a progressive discussion board, or the observation being allowed to be made on DU?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Snake Alchemist
(3,318 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)We all of us rationalize many of our actions throughout our lives.
Sometimes we request to play the role of martyr while we're at it.
w8liftinglady
(23,278 posts)So did my dad.
It was stress-relief,plain and simple.
I personally have no problem with legalized prostitution....between consenting adults,with std oversight.
Snake Alchemist
(3,318 posts)EOTE
(13,409 posts)Snake Alchemist
(3,318 posts)EOTE
(13,409 posts)Many nationalities provide a number of reasons as to why they think that prostitution should remain legal. Basic freedom is primary amongst those.
Snake Alchemist
(3,318 posts)EOTE
(13,409 posts)Snake Alchemist
(3,318 posts)People will always justify their actions though.
EOTE
(13,409 posts)Do you have a legitimate reason for not supporting legalized prostitution? Or do you just want to insult people who have no problem with it?
roody
(10,849 posts)Dorian Gray
(13,493 posts)It's funny (not ha ha) because I understand the inclination to finding comfort through sex in such circumstances. Or, if not comfort, then "forgetting." But I also can't help but think of what led those women to choose prostitution. The circumstances that led them to selling themselves to American GIs. And that makes me sad for them. But I am also sad for the soldiers who were living through their own hell.
Anyhow, I am glad you are home and alive and well today. I hope the women who lived through the war (and were probably on the wrong side of the Vietcong) are alive and well today, also.
Major Hogwash
(17,656 posts)I had a friend come home hooked on heroin, and another one came home in a box.
They both did what you did, and neither one of them were embarrassed by it later, either.
MattBaggins
(7,904 posts)WilmywoodNCparalegal
(2,654 posts)Kudos to you. Now, back to 2012. I was in college not that long ago and I had friends who worked as escorts to pay tuition, cars, trips, etc. None of them had been sexually abused and they could have gotten free rides via family and/or scholarships. One plainly loved having sex. We don't penalize men for publicly admitting that - yet we penalize women for enjoying sex.
The other two felt that many of our peers were having just as much sex in the name of fun and hanging out with the 'right' crowds that they thought... ok why not get paid for it?
The way I view the issue is that a woman who is not a minor, not abused and not coerced should be able to make a living from her body parts the same way Kobe Bryant makes his living using his athletic gifts (and apparently other body parts, but that's a different topic).
I realize my friends' experiences (all of whom are highly credentialed professionals with husbands and kids) are the minority, but the point is that a sexually active and sex-positive female should have the right to make a living at something she enjoys, which may very well be sex.
EOTE
(13,409 posts)Yes, it's very sad that women who enter in these kinds of professions tend to be more likely to have been abused, but would you deny them a personal choice because they've been victimized?
WilmywoodNCparalegal
(2,654 posts)It's not up to me to tell another woman who is an adult and has not been coerced or forced what to do or not do with her body parts - including uterus and vagina.
But my point remains that there are plenty of healthy (mentally and physically) sexually aware and positive women (and men, of course) who enjoy sex and who don't feel like making a profit out of this is a disgrace or automatically means they were sexually abused or victimized.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)We "penalize women for enjoying sex" by rewarding them with "tuition, cars and trips"?
I agree with you. Not all women who choose to be prostitutes are victims. At least some of them are their own agents.
WilmywoodNCparalegal
(2,654 posts)it is a penalty for the women involved because of the 'reputation' their chosen means of financial 'aid' if you will, and that choice is subjected to intense and negative scrutiny, which is why they keep it secret.
But there's no doubt that women are penalized by society for being sexual beings. Men who like sex are seen as studs. Women who like sex are seen as 'easy' or sluts or worse.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)I'm so sorry for the things you had to see and go through over there.
My heart literally aches for ALL the victims of war, including the men and women who had to fight them.
I'll not have at you. You were young, scared, homesick, and I would imagine that the majority of us here at DU have no idea what that must have been like.
Thank you for your service.
Bandit
(21,475 posts)Buku bokinuk
tallahasseedem
(6,716 posts)Period.
Liberal_in_LA
(44,397 posts)hedgehog
(36,286 posts)better off starving, maybe we should admit this is what happens to women when countries are at war or revolution, and work to prevent those situations.
Generic Other
(28,979 posts)I have always felt that some people viewed my parents' relationship as little better than prostitution. They were married for nearly 40 years. War makes strange bedfellows.
You have no reason to beat yourself up over this.
unionworks
(3,574 posts)JerseyMac
(12 posts)and other troops feel? I don't see one word about it in OP. You do know that a lot of those women were actually underage girls, girls who were forced or outright sold into prostitution. Do you know that your actions were akin to terrible abuse? You had 40 years to think about it but apparently you don't get it - you got what you wanted and you don't care that women/girls whose bodies you used were human beings only that you got laid.
unionworks
(3,574 posts)...go into combat. kill people to keep from being killed. Wonder every day if you are going to see another sunrise. Then come back on here and pass judgement on the poster and I will listen to you. Till then, no.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)All of which doesn't appear to address the relevant question: "How did the women feel about...?"
unionworks
(3,574 posts)...about it than the young men who had to be there. After the war, the Vietnamese government opened "rehabilitation" camps for prostitutes...
" IBTimes Home > World
December 6, 2011 11:37 AM GMT
Vietnam: Prostitutes and Drug Addicts Abused in Rehab 'Work Camps'
By Anissa Haddadi
The United Nation's has called on the Vietnamese government to close down rehabilitation centres for drug users and sex workers, calling them "counter-productive."
Following criticisms from rights groups and claims of abuse and at the end of a ten-day visit in Vietnam, Anand Grover, a special rapporteur for the UN Human Rights Council said Monday that the centres violate rights by forcing treatment upon the patients.
"The detainees are denied the right to be free from non-consensual treatment as well as the right to informed consent in all medically related decisions," Gover said Monday in a statement.
His criticism followed a report by Human Rights Watch calling for Vietnam to shut down drug rehabilitation centres after abuse on inmates were reported.
Grover said the compulsory detention in the centres violates the detainees' situation as they "have no right to know about their case against them and challenge it at a hearing before the decision is made."
He called the centres "ineffective and counterproductive," and said he "wholeheartedly" supports their closure.
"It's essential to ensure that the considerable resources now invested in these centres are used instead to expand alternative treatments for injecting drug users, "he added.
Grover, who also co-founded and directs the HIV/AIDS unit for India's Lawyers Collective, a nongovernmental organization that promotes human rights in India warned that Vietnam's rehabilitation centres contribute to the stigmatization and discrimination of drug users and sex workers.
In September, Human Rights Watch issued a 126-page report urging Vietnam to shut down drug rehabilitation centres after inmates said they were subjected to abuse and forced labour."
Spare us from the tender mercies of "moral" fanatics...
JerseyMac
(12 posts)killing other people, being scared for your life 40 years ago does not justify lack of empathy for those women found in OP - I mean he didn't even mention them.
11 Bravo
(23,926 posts)Being a newbie willing to spout off about something you know nothing about does not justify bigoted and intolerant assumptions.
There, see how easy that was? It's not too difficult to play "Most Righteous and Empathetic Lefty Dude On The Planet".
You have no fucking idea how I felt about or feel to this day regarding that woman (just one ... all week), and yet you feel free to chime in on my supposed lack of empathy with an ignorant post which could easily be construed as displaying a lack of sensitivity to gay GIs.
I guess my point is, don't try so hard; and if you don't know what the fuck you're talking about .. don't try at all.
unionworks
(3,574 posts)...well delivered.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)People still try to claim that I only mean women, but gay men are a disadvantaged minority subject to exploitation as well.
JerseyMac
(12 posts)something still bothers you about this experience, I wonder how do women who were forced to do sexual favors feel about it now - are they as angry as you are? You already stated in OP you are not embarrassed by it - and as I said you didn't mention the other person involved. My point is you only seem to think about your feelings - don't you think that woman you spent that week with might feel something different?
unionworks
(3,574 posts)...and you've already made my ignore list! A D.U. record!
JerseyMac
(12 posts)EX500rider
(10,842 posts)There was prostitution there before and after the war, not surprising there would be during.
One of the reasons prostitution increases when GI's are around is they pay much more then the local rate, even if it seems cheap to the GI's.
Many 3rd world countries don't have the hang ups or stigma about sex workers as Americans do.
Maybe she thought getting what might have been a weeks wages in her village was better then slaving away in a rice patty for 12 hours a day... For all you know she enjoyed her time with Bravo11 AND got paid 10 times what a local would have paid.
Is it impossible to believe he treated her nicely and she had fun? Just because money is involved doesn't rule out the possibility of the woman enjoying herself.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)I'm guessing she's happy that she wasn't shelled to death one fine morning.
I'm guessing she felt some relief at some time or another that she didn't starve to death, as so many innocents do during wartime.
I'm guessing that she probably doesn't see 11B as a hero or as a villain, but again, that's just a guess.
And I'm guessing you wouldn't ask questions like this from some virtual ivory tower if you had smelled the stench of dead bodies next to you in the hole you're hiding in.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)...to know that I'll never understand what it's like. I'm reading a 700 page book on the events of World War 2 right now, and I'm findint out some details I'd never imagined. The descriptions of actual battle are harrowing. The survival rate of submariners, tank drivers, Russians in general...it's appalling. A common thread in this book, which spends lots of time focusing on the words and thoughts of front-line soldiers, is that the people back home couldn't possibly understand what war is really like. The author of this book does a wonderful job of trying to describe what the war was like. But he does such a good job that he argues for his own descriptive limitations. In other words, I could read a 5000 page book on war, and I might gain a greater appreciation for the events of that war. But I'll never know the visceral fear, the pissing in your pants when you hear the first artillery shell (yes, even the manly men), the privation, the conviction that you'd never see another sunset. This is not a part of my life experience, and as such, I'm not going to get down on someone who used the services of a prostitute while in Vietnam. By the way, I'm a veteran of the peacetime Navy, and just want to reiterate, I have no freaking idea what war is like, and I'm fortunate for that. To see some of the posts here that sneer at the experience just helps me realize that these people have no idea what they're talking about--they know even less than I do.
I'm not going to "thank you for your service". That's a BS line used by too many people. I'm going to thank you for your story, and let you know that I wish I did understand it better than I'm able to from the safety of my keyboard. Thank you.
treestar
(82,383 posts)I still feel as bad for the women too, and wish they hadn't had to do that (and that their country had not been invaded).
unionworks
(3,574 posts)...is an example of the respectful display of empathy. Please give lessons to some of the people here who don't know how.
HopeHoops
(47,675 posts)slackmaster
(60,567 posts)unionworks
(3,574 posts)I'm not even going to dignify this with an alert...
girl gone mad
(20,634 posts)to defend themselves against such abuses.
Some day women will learn to fight back.
unionworks
(3,574 posts)Many who were prostitutes fought with the Viet Cong, or provided intelligence obtained from loose lipped G.I.s. I will withhold from further dignifying your comments with replies. Welcome to ignore.
demmiblue
(36,845 posts)that are victims of the war? Do you think that their wounds are less than the soldier's wounds? If anything, war, in general, hurts women far more than men.
EOTE
(13,409 posts)That's pretty damned disgusting. And yeah, I'm sure that war effects women far more than men. I'm quite certain that the 65,000 men who died in Vietman, many of them dying slow, agonizing deaths thought to themselves while taking their last breaths: "Things are pretty good now, at least I never had to have sex for money." Dear god, ridiculous just isn't strong enough a word to describe you.
liberaltrucker
(9,129 posts)191st Assault Helicopter Co. By his accounts, he went went through pretty much
what you did as a Huey door gunner. His R&R was in Hong Kong, he referred to
it as I&I-intoxication and intercourse.
I have no right to pass judgement since I've never been in combat. I'm just happy
that you and my brother came back still breathing.
JerseyMac
(12 posts)happens to people who've been in combat. Can they do whatever and everybody has to say "oh well I've never been in combat so I cannot pass judgement"? What about those who HAD TO service needs of those who've been in combat - is war zone prostitution (and all abuses that go with it) OK for troops?
liberaltrucker
(9,129 posts)Neither you nor I have no fucking idea how it feels not knowing if
you'll survive the next 30 seconds.
Neither the OP nor my brother partook of the services in a war zone.
The were on R&R-rest and relaxation. In my brother's case, that was
Hong Kong where, at that time prostitution was legal.
I absolutely don't excuse rape, which happens all too often in a war
zone. In the case of the US military, that is dealt with very harshly.
In any case, how is the soldier supposed to know?
I pray that neither you nor I ever experience what the OP and my
brother did. But unless we do, I choose to STFU.
MattBaggins
(7,904 posts)Being afraid for my life didn't give me card blanche to kill innocents, rob people, torture them or any other number of criminal activities.
It also didn't give me an excuse to abuse women.
JVS
(61,935 posts)Germany was an extremely duty conscious society. This resulted in a justification based on "Just following orders"
The USSR justified the actions of their soldiers in WWII based on individual privation and need for revenge.
In the US we already had plenty of people willing to renounce duty in the form of protest, conscientious objection, and draft evasion. Also, US soldiers have generally enjoyed material conditions better than their opponents as well as very favorable kill ratios. But we do have a tradition of being judged by our peers, so that is glommed onto and used to silence those who object to excesses.
FreakinDJ
(17,644 posts)So yes - they were some one of the opposite sex that you could talk to - amongst other things
NightTemplar
(49 posts)but I have known a stripper who performed "private shows"... and NOTHING in the world could have made her give it up. She made 3-5k per week while her girlfriends were making $300-400 per week. She loved it, she had a load of cash on her at all times. She had a great apartment and was always helping her friends.
So in her case... I think it's more likely SHE was the one doing the abusing lol.
unionworks
(3,574 posts)...they died years after coming home, from heroin addiction, suicide, agent orange poisoning, PTSD related mental problems, drinking themselves to death. The average age of the American GI was 19. I cannot believe there are as many ignoramuses on DU as I have seen on this thread. I have 4 or 5 friends who would set you straight if they were still alive.
EOTE
(13,409 posts)On edit: I'm not quite sure that I understand your post. Just what do you mean by setting the OP straight?
unionworks
(3,574 posts)Those attacking the poster of the op. Sorry, hope I cleared that up.
EOTE
(13,409 posts)The attacks, especially from people who could have no idea what it must be like, are utterly sickening. No one benefits from this kind of hysteria.
unionworks
(3,574 posts)....of the left calling soldiers baby killers and worse was over. A nice long talk with John Kerry might be of benefit to them. Really don't pay them too much mind anyway, mostly they are trying to show off in front of their cliques.
noamnety
(20,234 posts)We have a unique ability to empathize more with the oppressor than the oppressed.
(paraphrasing a quote from a blog post I saw a couple years ago - by a nonAmerican - that I wasn't able to shake.)
unionworks
(3,574 posts)...were "Oppressors". Sorry, not taking the bait. Welcome to ignore. You'll meet lots of like minded people there. It will keep you from feeling oppressed and lonely.
noamnety
(20,234 posts)I am a former army sgt.
JVS
(61,935 posts)Yeah, that sounds totally legit.
unionworks
(3,574 posts)I am finding out who the people are I really want to avoid. Welcome to ignore!
Vattel
(9,289 posts)If you were culpably involved in the abuse of girls forced into prostitution (and I'm not saying you were), then obviously you should feel bad about what you did. You just say that you were sleeping with prostitutes, something that I don't think is inherently wrong. So I will assume that they gave you their free and informed consent, and that you behaved admirably in every respect.