Before you throw out the next Nazi, Hitler, Goebbels slur...

[WarGamer]

Let me start by first saying Hello to everyone. Long time DU reader, longer time Political enthusiast and debater.

Trump is a Nazi. Stephen Miller is Goebbels, Barr is Himmler, Wolf is Reinhard Heydrich and Ivanka is Leni Riefenstahl.

Right?

IMHO, it does a great disservice to History and the victims of ACTUAL Nazism to conflate villains and political opponents to historical figures.

I could start by asking you to research what ACTUAL REAL Nazis actually DID but that's probably not fruitful. So let's try this.

Edna S. Frieberg know more about Nazis than I or any of you. She's a historian at the US Holocaust Memorial Museum, she's a fellow at the Jewish Theological Seminary and I hesitate to call her a "friend" but I'll just say an "acquaintance".through our shared interests and social/educational functions.

Give this a read and then think the next time before you call someone a NAZI or Storm Trooper.

https://www.ushmm.org/information/press/press-releases/why-holocaust-analogies-are-dangerous

"The Holocaust has become shorthand for good vs. evil; it is the epithet to end all epithets. And the current environment of rapid fire online communication and viral memes lends itself particularly well to this sort of sloppy analogizing. Worse, it allows it to spread more widely and quickly."

"Neither the political right nor left has a monopoly on exploiting the six million Jews murdered in a state-sponsored, systematic campaign of genocide to demonize or intimidate their political opponents."

"Perhaps most popular this year have been accusations of “Nazism” and “fascism” against federal authorities for their treatment of children separated from their parents at the US border with Mexico. “Remember, other governments put kids in camps,” is a typical rallying cry from some immigration advocates. Even a person as well versed in the tenuous balance between national security and compassion, the former head of the CIA, took to Twitter to criticize federal policies toward illegal migrants using a black and white photo of the iconic train tracks leading the Auschwitz-Birkenau killing center. Nazi comparisons have also been leveled against the federal government in connection with a travel ban on individuals from predominantly Muslim countries. Animal rights proponents have consistently decried what they call “the Holocaust on your plate” in critiquing today’s meat industry. The list goes on."





Be a better debater... give it a thought, ok?

thx.

[FreepFryer]

1. Welcome to DU! As far as your post, nah. Comparisons can and should be made. (Nt)

[Alacritous Crier]

2. Mike Godwin said it's fine.

Welcome to DU.

[Ferrets are Cool]

3. Welcome to DU. Thanks for your concern.

[CurtEastPoint]

6. ditto.

[denbot]

30. Double ditto

[Ms. Toad]

4. That piece was written in 2018,

BEFORE Trump's use of armed forces to drive peaceful protestors away for a photo-op, BEFORE the January 6 insurrection, BEFORE multiple disinformation campaigns that twisted teh truth into something unrecognizable, at least negligently caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands, and attempted to install Trump by both lies and violence despite overwhelmngly being voted out of office.

While I agreee that comparisons to Nazi's are - in general - overused. In this case I disagree. It would be dangerous not to make such comparisons, lest he and his acolytes take the next relatively small step towards replicating the worst of the worst dicators.

They only failed both because their execution of the armed insurrection too fast and unsophisticated to succeed - and because we got damn lucky.

[cwydro]

35. Excellent point.

I wasn’t wild about the Nazi comparisons either, until this last year.

[meadowlander]

5. @1:51

[FreepFryer]

28. Nice :) (Nt)

[Squinch]

7. Thanks so much for joining so you could let us know the error of our ways. Without you we would

have never known the correct way to behave.

[Hermit-The-Prog]

8. Nazis didn't begin their evil with the Holocaust.

"Never again" requires us to not wait until ovens and concentration camps are built.

[Leith]

19. That's what I was thinking, too

The nazis didn't start with the worst atrocities; they did it by degrees, a pattern many of us recognized in the last maladminstration.

As for the rest of us: Let's not be too hard on a new poster. DU does not have the only people who follow politics or know anything about what's going on in the world. Newcomers came here because they are interested in the same thing we are. They are as well-versed as anybody here.

[PufPuf23]

49. Most at DU may know of the book "They Thought They Were Free"

but if one is unfamiliar, I recommend to take a gander.

Synopsis at Amazon:

>>First published in 1955, They Thought They Were Free is an eloquent and provocative examination of the development of fascism in Germany. Mayer’s book is a study of ten Germans and their lives from 1933-45, based on interviews he conducted after the war when he lived in Germany. Mayer had a position as a research professor at the University of Frankfurt and lived in a nearby small Hessian town which he disguised with the name “Kronenberg.” “These ten men were not men of distinction,” Mayer noted, but they had been members of the Nazi Party; Mayer wanted to discover what had made them Nazis.

“What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if the people could not understand it, it could not be released because of national security. And their sense of identification with Hitler, their trust in him, made it easier to widen this gap and reassured those who would otherwise have worried about it.”--from Chapter 13, “But Then It Was Too Late”

[PCIntern]

34. Ex-actly.

[Cha]

75. Thank you, Hermit!

smh..

[Hermit-The-Prog]

85. We had survivors warning us about the threat of trumpism.

It looks like revisionist history to downplay the threat now that we have the White House and a razor-thin majority in Congress. Meanwhile, we still have groups who either claim to be Nazis, espouse the same ideas, or worship Nazis as folk heroes. We have people in high offices -- local, state, and federal -- who court these groups and try to enact or enforce legislation in those groups' favor.

The insurrection of Jan 6 should not be allowed to be a training exercise or precursor to fascist rule; it needs to be made the last gasp of the extremists seeking to replace the Constitution and rule of law with their manifestos and rule by dictator.

DU has historians, researchers, political pros, and just plain news junkies who can, in the current slang, "bring the receipts" to counter attempts to dismiss the threats we all watched and lived through for at least four years. RW extremism is a global problem, empowered by extreme wealth disparity and the sophistication of propaganda tools using personal data collection and targetting never before available.

I'm just an under-educated hillbilly, but I can tell when the weasel's in the henhouse.

[Cha]

87. Oh Yes We Did! & Yes it Does! Mahalo for the

excellent, historical review of the Reality of Putin's Puppet.. Hillary Warned us!

you're Smart! & it doesn't take a genius to figure this out.. not if you've been on DU for the last 4 years.. getting all the Facts. Not the m$m years of attempting to "Normalize" that Psychotic Sociopathic Fascist Wannabe

[Hermit-The-Prog]

90. Celerity just posted one you might enjoy ...

If you haven't seen this yet:

Time: The Secret History of the Shadow Campaign That Saved the 2020 Election

[Cha]

92. I hadn't.. TY! It looks

Intriguing!

[uponit7771]

89. +1, the right thing to do is to call out parallels

[PatSeg]

100. Exactly

Trump and his followers did as much damage as possible in four years. If he could have accomplished more, I'm sure he would have. Plus when Hitler came to power, the country was in a deep depression and unemployment was at 30%. People were very vulnerable and easily influenced. As with Trump, government leaders in Germany at the time thought Hitler was a joke, a relatively harmless clown.

Trump, however, inherited a thriving and stable economy. If he had had more time in office, he could have continued to tear down the institutions that protect us and create more financial and social instability. He had already shown us what he was capable of. With more time and fewer restraints, he could have become a full-blown, fascist dictator. I am quite sure that given four more years, Trump could have destroyed our democracy and comparisons to Nazi Germany would not seem farfetched at all.

[msongs]

9. the similarities are the rhetoric and violent behavior and attempt to take over the government

and the attempt to normalize such behavior as decent and patriotic. Repubs may not invade Poland or set up hundreds of death camps to that extreme but the damage they want to inflict is massive just the same

[lagomorph777]

20. Repubs have set up concentration camps, and thrown thousands of children in them.

The comparisons to Nazis are 100% justified.

[Turin_C3PO]

10. We're not there yet.

But some of the early warning signs are most certainly present. It’s up to good citizens to prevent our country from becoming an analogue to Nazi Germany.

[meadowlander]

17. Yes, this doesn't feel like a stretch:

These people identify themselves as Nazis. Calling them out on it is not the same as PETA calling meat eating an environmental Holocaust.

[Butterflylady]

11. I get, I think, what she's saying,

But I also know how "history has a way of repeating itself."

[onecaliberal]

12. Republicans are fascist. They have no regard for human life and only seek to enrich themselves.

450,000 are DEAD in less than one year. I'm sorry but I can't pretend to not see the striking similarities between the rise of hitler and the rise of the QOP in the United States.

[ZZenith]

13. Welcome to DU.

Thanks for letting us know what we can and cannot say.

Next time a known white supremacist ascends to the highest office in the land I’ll check with you for the proper lexicon.

[Aristus]

14. Nope. We have to call these people what they are before they have the opportunity

to commit their atrocities again.

The "He just tried to make Germany great again" types do not deserve patience and understanding in light of what Hitler said he was going to do from the outset.

When Trump said "Drain the swamp", he signaled his intentions to eliminate from the US government every protection for the poor and marginalized in our country from the economic, social, and racist predators out there.

He nearly succeeded. It was only by calling these monsters what they are that we were able to mobilize progressive decent voters to throw him out of office before the country collapsed.

Calling a Nazi a Nazi is the best way to ensure that they don't get a jackboot in the door again...

[rusty fender]

112. I commend your response to the OP

[Midnight Writer]

15. And ignore that odd mole on your back that keeps growing. Don't compare it to cancer.

You don't have to worry until it turns into a full blown case.

[AntiFascist]

16. "Nazis" are a very fringe element in America, but regarding the threat of fascism...

I would quote from the Encyclopedia Britannica:

https://www.britannica.com/topic/fascism/Intellectual-origins
...
Any study of fascism which centers too narrowly on the fascists and Nazis alone may miss the true significance of right-wing extremism. For without necessarily becoming party members or accepting the entire range of party principles themselves, aristocratic landlords, army officers, government and civil service officials, and important industrialists in Italy and Germany helped bring fascists to power.”
...
In Italy thousands of landowners and businessmen were grateful to Mussolini’s Blackshirts for curbing the socialists in 1920–21, and many in the army and the Catholic church saw fascism as a bulwark against communism.

[Mike 03]

18. This isn't worth a long response:

1. Most of the discussion of the Nazis is in reference to the authoritarian playbook, which didn't even originate with Hitler, and has been used for the last 100 years. The enablers are a key facilitator of the rise of the dictator, so it's quite sensible to compare Trump's enablers to Hitler's enablers (or Mussolini's, Stalin's, Pinochet's, Franco's enablers)

2. The second important analogy is how Hitler acquired power, turning a functioning democracy into a dictatorship. You may not think it is a good analogy, but great thinkers do. Timothy Snyder does. Ruth Ben-Ghiat does. Benjamin Carter Hett wrote an entire book just about this. Richard J. Evans, the greatest Third Reich scholar of all time, thinks it is.

(I've already wasted too much time)

3. Lastly, the psychiatrists... And I don't have time to look them all up but it only takes Google. The crucial thing is that Hitler and Trump were both malignant narcissists. For that reason, they do believe in making this comparison. One of the psychiatrists interviewed for #UNFIT (the documentary) said, to paraphrase: People get upset with me for comparing Trump to Hitler, but I do do it, and I'm going to keep doing it. Why? Because their diagnosis is the same.

Trump is more dangerous than Hitler, says a forensic psychiatrist
https://www.geo.tv/latest/316907-trump-is-more-dangerous-than-adolf-hitler

Anybody who will listen, I tell them the same thing:

If you want to understand the politics of what is happening as authoritarians attempt to overthrow democracies from Hungary and Poland to India, Brazil and the United States, there is no better template to study than the ascent of the Third Reich (starting with the conclusion of WWI). The details may differ, the regime may be left or right, but the entire thing is right there. I would go even further and say, "You only have to study the ascent of the Third Reich" to understand the appeal of authoritarianism and the danger to democracy it poses. It is IMO one of the most well spent uses of time I can think of: Study WW2 in general and the ascent of The Third Reich particularly.

That's my two cents on this.

Yale psychiatrist Bandy Lee says Trump worse than Hitler: 'At least Hitler ... had discipline'
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/nov/2/bandy-lee-yale-psychiatrist-says-trump-worse-than-/

Some Books:

The Death of Democracy by Benjamin Carter Hett is a good place to start.
Strongmen by Ruth Ben-Ghiat is a good place to start.
The Road to Unfreedom by Timothy Snyder is a good second place to go.
Black Earth: The Holocaust as History and Warning, by Timothy Snyder

[Klaralven]

22. Sort of, but its hard to think of the Weimar Republic as a "functioning democracy"

Although it nominally existed from 1918 to 1933, relations were not normalized until the Locarno Treaty of 1925 and it had largely collapsed during the Great Depression in 1930. Except for a brief period in the 20s, political conflict, hyperinflation and economic collapse characterized the period.

[msongs]

23. the largest minority party nazis staged political disobedience to keep govt from functioning so

german chancellors ruled by decree (executive orders)

[Klaralven]

24. Starting in 1930.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weimar_Republic

[thucythucy]

21. I think we're justified in saying

what Trump attempted on January 6th was quite similar to the Beer Hall Putsch. That insurrection also failed because of the ineptitude of Hitler and his band of far right misfits, which included rabid anti-Semites, conspiracy minded crackpots and the like.

Hitler was "punished" with minimal jail time in cushy surroundings, and was thus able once out to start anew his quest for power.

One of the most cogent statements I've seen in recent days goes like this:

Q: What do you call a failed coup that goes unpunished?

A: A rehearsal.

Which is where we are now. Unless Trump and those around him are held accountable we run a serious risk of a repeat in the not too distant future.

As far as comparisons to the Nazis, we should note that there are actual Nazis who count themselves as Trump supporters, and that Trump labelled them "very fine people." But in general I try to avoid such comparisons.

[lagomorph777]

25. Also, throwing children into concentration camps.

There are a million more examples.

Trump wanted to be Hitler. He even stole Hitler's campaign slogan "Make ___ Great Again."

[blm]

26. PreHolocaust Germany is what Trumpism gets compared to

most often.

Timelines matter.

[leftstreet]

27. You just wanted to talk about Hitler and Nazis n/t

[GusBob]

98. Good point

Sure way to get replies on DU
-talk about Nazis
-mention Facebook
-anything Bernie Sanders


Great conversation starters

[WarGamer]

105. Or could be because DU users mention Nazis and Hitler 300 times a day?

[GusBob]

118. 300 times a day! Holy shit! Wow!

That is fucking awesome!

[TheFarseer]

29. Thanks

Now kindly tell the Republicans that we are not Stalin for wanting to make sure everyone has access to health care or raise minimum wage.

[CurtEastPoint]

31. j'ever notice how people post and then a ton of folks comment/rebut and not one peep from OP

[ProfessorGAC]

33. Well, I Sure Did!

No replies, rebuttals, restatement or engagement.
Make me go "Hmmmm!"

[FakeNoose]

39. He's a new guy, give him a chance

We're all ganging up on him.

[WarGamer]

46. thanks...

I Just don't understand why "Fascist, Traitor, Bully, assholes, thugs and Authoritarian trash" aren't sufficient labels for them without delving into the Nazi thing.

Mocking politicians is as old as the USA itself, have at it...

[WarGamer]

42. I'm here... was gone most of the day.

After looking at the replies, I'm kinda' shocked.

I make an opinion, backed up by one of the foremost experts on Nazis/Holocaust and 100% of the replies told "us" to shove it.

Words matter. Understanding the REAL price of Nazism matters.

Some of the responses really surprised me by their complete lack of Historical accuracy.

Are you still asking me why I choose not to reply to them?

[struggle4progress]

32. They clearly and repeatedly signal their intentions, so I say: believe them

[Buckeye_Democrat]

63. This.

It's better to identify them early rather than wait for takeovers, loss of free speech, etc.

[dalton99a]

36. Godwin: "By all means, compare these shitheads to the Nazis.

Again and again. I'm with you."

"If you’re thoughtful about it and show some real awareness of history, go ahead and refer to Hitler or Nazis when you talk about Trump. Or any other politician."

[WarGamer]

43. Mike Godwin is literally a human meme.

He has NO academic credentials in History.

[Mr.Bill]

37. And don't think for one minute that

Trump wouldn't love to slaughter six million or more Muslims, African Americans, Mexicans, etc. Fill it in with your minority of choice.

[WarGamer]

44. If I were your History Professor

And asked you for your best persuasive essay arguing that claim... how do you think you'd fare?

[Mr.Bill]

50. I would probably ask you if you got your history degree

at Trump University. You would have to be deaf and blind to not see what this man would do if he could.

[WarGamer]

55. I don't care if you have no respect for me, that's cool. You don't know me.

How about the author, Dr Frieberg?

Is she an idiot, a right winger or a Nazi herself?

[Mr.Bill]

58. I know nothing about her and I didn't come here

to be directed to read anybody's biography. You should study up on Trump, though. I've been aware of this asshole since the early 70s. Let's just say it disturbs me that even ten people in our entire country voted for him. The only difference between him and someone like Hitler is Trump is not as intelligent and wasn't as focused in his early years. He was distracted by raping children.

[Celerity]

67. You are just full of 'appeals to authority' logical fallacies aren't you.

[obamanut2012]

38. yawn

[Celerity]

40. you will not like this

[WarGamer]

45. It's not about like/dislike

It's about historical accuracy and insulting the REAL victims of Nazism.

[Celerity]

47. I tend to roll with the other replies who think it's fine, as many of the trumpian hordes are actual

real neo nazis.

[WarGamer]

53. yeah...

Please don't think that I'm arguing with you, we're just discussing...

One way it's been explained to me...

Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig and Mickie Mantle were Yankees.

A guy from Wichita with Yankee posters on the wall, wears Yankee jerseys and caps, memorizes all the stats is not a Yankee.

He's a fanboy of the Yankees.




The Nazis are gone. They've been gone since 1945. We're left with an ever dwindling "fan club" of assholes who revere them.

Nazism died. Fascism lives on. Authoritarianism lives on. Assholery lives on.

[WarGamer]

61. I know ALL ABOUT that.

They're dudes from the neighborhood wearing Yankees jerseys.

By definition the NAZI Party ended in 1945.

All that you see now is morons wearing the jersey.

Nationalists, Fascists, Assholes all of them.

[Celerity]

64. you are arguing semantics, and we use the term NEO nazis for a reason

It is all the same underlying white power, jew (and most all other minorities) hating ideology, the only differences are the political power scales of economy and that many of them do not speak German. Let real modern-day neo nazis take over a nation and it will be 1935 all over again.

[WarGamer]

66. correct... it's about semantics. That's the purpose of the article.

[Celerity]

68. I disagree with your premiss and your conclusions. nt

[WarGamer]

70. thanks for the discussion, I truly appreciate it. nt

[PufPuf23]

76. You should make this an OP Celerity

Thank you for assembling this material. Eye opening.

[GoneOffShore]

95. And again - Nope.

"Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, 'regretted,' that unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these 'little measures'... must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing - each act is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join you in resisting somehow.

You don't want to act, or even talk, alone; you don't want to 'go out of your way to make trouble.' But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That's the difficulty. The forms are all there, all untouched, all reassuring, the houses, the shops, the jobs, the mealtimes, the visits, the concerts, the cinema, the holidays. But the spirit, which you never noticed because you made the lifelong mistake of identifying it with the forms, is changed. Now you live in a world of hate and fear, and the people who hate and fear do not even know it themselves, when everyone is transformed, no one is transformed. You have accepted things you would not have accepted five years ago, a year ago, things your father could never have imagined."

From Milton Mayer, They Thought They Were Free, The Germans, 1933-45 (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1955)

[Mr.Bill]

52. Nobody's insulting them any more than you are insulting the families

of the 450,000 who have died from a virus they didn't have to die from.

[WarGamer]

54. I didn't even comment about COVID-19

To the families of victims, NAZI means the men who rolled into villages in 1942 and literally (not figuratively) dragged men, women and children out of their homes outside of the village and shot them in the head... by the hundreds/thousands.

NAZIS were the ones who herded women and children into "showers" and dropped in poison gas or started up trucks with exhaust plumbed into the showers...

Don't trust me, trust the families of the victims that condemn this language.

[Mr.Bill]

56. And before they did those things,

they were on their way to doing those things. Just as those in power here were a few months ago. If Trump had won this election by overturning the Electoral College, it would have been our last election.

[Initech]

41. Actually I would say Sean Hannity was more the Goebbles of the Trump administration.

After all, he had more influence with Trump than the Joint Chiefs did.

But as far as making Nazi comparisons, I think Arnold Schwarzenegger had the best take on the subject recently.

[UTUSN]

48. Sometimes a metaphor is a metaphor. Also, if a current wingnut's orientation is extended to its

natural conclusion, it would be what you cite as what the historical dudes did. Points on the spectrum.

[Maru Kitteh]

51. I sit now about 12ft from the armbands of 12 Nazis killed by my father.

I cannot tell you how many times throughout my childhood he told me "Never forget, it can happen here."

I will not ignore the rise of American fascism or minimize the obvious parallels before us. It is happening here, and it is upon us to stop it.

[WarGamer]

57. You're 100% correct.

American Fascism is a real threat.

Notice how we both didn't use the "NAZI thing"? in this response?

Just curious, did your Dad ever tell you how he got the armbands? German soldiers didn't wear armbands. It was a political thing.

You'd find them on politicians and civilians. If I had to venture a guess, I'd say that about 99.99% of all armbands in 1945 Germany were stuffed in drawers or chests under the bed.

[Victor_c3]

60. Yup, that's exactly what I think

I have taken quite a few college level courses on German history and the Third Reich and even lived in Germany for nearly 5 years. I’ve devoured numerous books on all aspects of the third reich and visited countless area of significance to both the third reich and its consequences.

Comparing anybody but hitler to hitler only downplays the carnage he let loose.

[WarGamer]

62. This is the first post in this thread agreeing with Dr. Frieberg.

Thanks.

[StarfishSaver]

65. Hitler and Goebbels and Himmler, etc. didn't start out as the Hitler, Goebbels and Himmler we know

They started out as political leaders who promised to "shake things up," make the country great again, and protect the "real" patriots from "others" who were threatening to take away their way of life. They didn't start off with concentration camps or extermination or any of the horrors we associate with the Holocaust. They started off with much of the type of language and behavior we watched Trump and his crowd engage in.

And looking back, many people wish they had recognized the danger Hitler posed and stepped in and fought to stop him before they went down the slippery slope.

So while the Hitler comparisons often are overused, when it comes to Trump, they are not misplaced. We were on a very dangerous path and people needed to know that this could have gone a very bad way - and by the time the comparisons are obvious, it would be too late.

[WarGamer]

69. Devil's Advocate here...

How many people have promised to "shake things up" and all the other things and did NOT turn into Fascist murderers?

[StarfishSaver]

77. No one is comparing Trump to early Hitler simply because he promised to shake things up

Did you not read my entire post (or even the entire first sentence) - or follow Trump's entire presidency?

[Mr.Bill]

71. Well said. n/t

[demtenjeep]

72. this is a political message board with obvious bias and we are not here to be lectured and talked

out of our own thoughts.

We are here because we knew how the nation was going with the installation of Bush the dummy and got even closer together at the stolen mess of the whole dotard years.

He admitted the only book he read was Hitlers He wanted to be Hitler x2 and we will continue to talk and us our analogies.


might I suggest free republic if you want positive trump thought

[Solly Mack]

73. People die. Their ideas don't.

By "real" I take it you mean the original NAZIS of Germany that began - formally - in 1920 with a name change of a already existing political party. So began the rise to power of - within the existing system of government that was unprepared for - the man that would change the fate of millions. Billions, really.

Mussolini and his brand of Fascism, around 1915 or so, yes?

Russian pogroms began in the early 1800's.

The Spanish Inquisition began in in early 1200's.

People die. Ideas don't.

Ideas are contagious both for the good and the ill.

The Trail of Tears caused the deaths of about 3k (low end) to 6k (high end). But if saving the life of one person creates/saves generations, then the death of one kills off generations. Think about all those generations lost. I do. A lot.

Around 13 million lives lost. Think about all those lost generations. I do. A lot.

Slavery in the Americas murdered how many future generations do you think? And its ever-present progenitor - racism? How many future generations wiped out completely? That are still being wiped out?

Fascism, the organized idea come to fruition, came to America in the 1920's. Not that long after its rise - as a movement - in Italy. Oh, to be sure, with a decidedly American flavor, if you will.

Fascistic thought was around before it made headlines as a movement. No March on Rome needed.

Authoritarian thought has been around since there have been people to argue over who gets to be boss and why, so to speak. The "Why" of it all being important.

So the appeal of Fascism was always in America, like anywhere else. As authoritarian thinking was already present. But the collective of a movement gains momentum in a way that expressing an idea while out drinking with your friends doesn't. Well, unless at the point of a gun and several hundred thugs. Such things will cause people to pay attention - if only out of fear.

People do some seriously fucked up - I curse, deal - things because of their fear. That's not an excuse. Always check your fear, it's a path to the dark side. Yes, but it's still true.

Some Americans do claim to be NAZIS - usually with its combining form "Neo".

I don't argue with them about how they wish to identify. I accept them at their words and their actions - and I take note.

No one in America is likely to outright call themselves the "Fascist Party". They have admired and sought to implement the ideas of fascism. The direct implementation not so successful - the incorporation, well...

There's implement and incorporation. Incorporation is more insidious, in my opinion.

People might not accept the implementation of torture but they might just find a way to excuse the incorporation of torture into something with a different name -, say, like - enhanced interrogation techniques. But I digress.

Fear is ugly. And deadly.

The Shoah, Cambodian, Rwandan, First Peoples, Slavery, Armenian - the list goes on.

How many future generations that will never be?


A final thought, or idea, if you will...


If you wait for the ovens to be built, it's already too late.

[fishwax]

74. I'm skeptical of how she folds the objection to "Nazis" into the objection to "The Holocaust"

And I reject the folding of "fascism" into that bundle.

They are all connected, of course, but not the same. I would agree with Frieberg that we should be very wary of drawing on "The Holocaust" as a simple shorthand for evil or good vs. evil. If someone were to compare the Muslim Travel Ban to the Holocaust, that would be absurd and offensive. If someone were to refer to the child separation/detention policy as "The American Holocaust," that would certainly be beyond the pale, and Frieberg's objection would certainly come into play.

But the Nazis and Nazism existed prior to the Holocaust and Nazism didn't disappear when the camps were liberated. And while they haven't obviously haven't achieved an evil on the level of the holocaust, there are real living people whose blood has been shed and whose lives have been stolen at the hands of these folks. They're not simply, as you've said elsewhere, like kids from Kansas who grew up with Yankees posters on the wall and think they're Yankees. They're not just fanboys. People have suffered and died at their hands and for their cause.

Don't get me wrong, I certainly think care should be used in such comparisons, but the barrier for these comparisons is, in my opinion, rather significantly lower than with "The Holocaust," because the latter term is both more precise/specialized and more sacrosanct.

"Perhaps most popular this year have been accusations of “Nazism” and “fascism” against federal authorities for their treatment of children separated from their parents at the US border with Mexico.

Fascism exists independently of the Holocaust and even of Nazism, and is very much still with us. It's not even in the same league as a term like "The Holocaust."

[canetoad]

78. Your post presents an interesting dilemma.

If we were to agree that the Nazi's murder of Jews, Gypsies, political opponents, homosexuals, the disabled, prisoners of war and several other categories of human beings was the worst concerted, act of genocide during the 20th century, we will also need to agree that a similar event, if it's in any of our powers, never, ever happens again.

I, along with numerous DUers, was born within the decade following the War's end. Spending my childhood in Europe, I knew Displaced Persons, returned veterans, refugees and survivors. I probably had a closer and more personal exposure to the aftermath of the War than many DUers simply because of geographic proximity and cultural inculcation.

As I write, I'd imagine that several of the remaining WWII survivors have succumbed. They are fewer in number every year. A five year old in 1940 is now eighty.

How do we remember when they are all gone? How do future generations, in the days of txtspk learn how to describe the fear and horror of totalitarian leaders?

We remember and we warn as best we can, given the changing sensibilities, changing generations and changing language.

[EX500rider]

79. "was the worst concerted, act of genocide during the 20th century"

I'd say top 3 after Mao and Stalin who both killed more of their own citizens.

Mao was responsible for the deaths of at least 45 million people between 1958 and 1962.

[canetoad]

80. I didn't realise it was so many

Point taken. Thank you.

[Spider Jerusalem]

82. That was not, by definition, genocide

Mao and Stalin were not trying to eradicate either the Chinese or Russian people, respectively. Hereros in German Southwest Africa? Genocide. What the Turks did to Armenians, the Nazis did to Jews, government of Myanmar has been doing to the Rohingya, the Chinese are doing to the Uighurs? Genocide. What Mao did in the Great Leap Forward? NOT genocide.

[Silent3]

81. Ivanka is Leni Riefenstahl?

Riefenstahl had talent. She put it to evil use, but it was talent.

Ivanka has all of the talent of a mannequin, and less charisma.

[Hekate]

83. I'm watching a program by Malcolm Nance produced in 2020 called "Unfit" on a channel called...

Kanopy, available via the college my husband used to teach at. It no doubt was shown elsewhere before this, probably Nance’s podcast.

It is specifically about Trump. Nance draws heavily on psychiatrists, historians, and so on. All of them draw on the history of the 20th century from 1919 on, with the rise of Fascism, Nazism, Stalinism, and the common psychological characteristics of Mussolini, Hitler, Stalin... and Trump.

We are currently in a historical cycle where authoritarian regimes are on the rise all over the world, most if not all of them secretly funded by Putin.

So, ignore that cancer. It’s probably just a mole that changed colors and has irregular edges. Rest easy.

[Demonaut]

84. "first they came"

[Hekate]

86. See, here's a thing about DU members you may not know: many of us have family connections to...

...Holocaust survivors, and/or are old enough to have grown up with neighbors who were. That gives one a particular perspective on current world events and world history.

Right now, totalitarianism is on the rise all over the planet. Trump is out of the White House, but he is far from gone. Trumpistas are very much among us, including in the House and Senate.

[tavernier]

99. Exactly.

Nazi early philosophy tore families apart, just as our Civil War had brother fighting against brother. Trump started early to inflame the division in our country and destroy any hope for unity. Sadly that is evident more now than ever in our House and Senate. He has brought us very close to a fall.

There is much to compare and repair.

[WarGamer]

104. I agree, 100%

Totalitarianism is on the rise.

Labeling it as Nazism is lazy intellectualism.

[Crunchy Frog]

88. Who thinks Ivanka is Leni Riefenstahl? Ivanka has no talent at all.

As for the rest, TL;DR. Maybe sharpen it up and throw out some of the strawmen?

[canetoad]

91. But that was a throwaway line

And now who is dissing the holocaust?

Empty cans rattle loudest.

[VOX]

93. Your first post, and you want to control content and terminology here.

You didn’t read the room very well.

Welcome to DU.

[WarGamer]

103. I certainly expected a different reception.

Maybe a 50/50 split on the topic.

[MineralMan]

106. I'll bet you did. Here's the thing:

Gaining a useful knowledge about DU and DUers requires a good deal of time and interaction. You posted what is essentially an apologia for the Trump administration. Predictably, that did not go over very well.

The comparison between Trumpist characters and WWI Nazis is more a simile than an exact metaphor. People liken someone like Stephen Miller to Goebbels, in part due to his philosophical leanings and in part due to physical similarities. People likened Donald Trump to Mussolini, because he blatantly copied that dictator's mannerisms when addressing a crowed.

The whole lot of Trumpists resemble fascists from that era more than anyone else. They are fascists, in fact, so the comparison is a natural one.

Saying that the Trumpists weren't quite as bad as the Nazis is different from pointing out just how bad they were, in their own ways.

So, your post backfired on you. Read more and post less for a while. That's my advice.

[WarGamer]

107. So are you saying that Dr. Frieberg is wrong?

It's easy to call me "wrong" or a Trump apologist (which is funny, btw) but shouldn't the opinion of an expert in the field have generated a more open and honest debate?

I understand the abject hatred. In fact, it's something we share. But hatred can NEVER be allowed to weaken the quality of debate. To summarize what I'm saying, call them Fascists, Authoritarians, thugs, bullies and assholes... all accurate terms.

Or simply that DU, as a community... isn't receptive to the argument?

That doesn't make the argument faulty, it simply reflects on the community the argument is presented before.

[MineralMan]

108. From that writer's perspective, no doubt.

There is, however, more than one way to look at it. As I said, the comparisons are more simile than metaphor. While you might see that as a fine point, it's not really. The word Nazi was rarely used there. Fascism, however, was used far more often.

I suggest that you are expanding on what that writer wrote. I don't have time to read the entire thing, nor much interest in doing so.

I never called Trumpists Nazis. Neither did many people here, so your scolding won't work well here. I did liken some of them to individuals in previous fascist governments, though. Simile, not metaphor.

[WarGamer]

109. thanks for the discussion, I truly appreciate it. nt

[GoneOffShore]

94. Nope - but thanks for your concern.

“The middle ground is not halfway between Nazis and antiracists. The reasonable position is not a compromise between rapists and feminists, slaveowners and abolitionists, Natives and General Crook. The truth is not midway between the liar and the truthteller. That has to be a factor in all those calls for reaching out and unity. The murderer and his intended victim don't have to agree on what's right. The people who were harmed don't have to reach out to those who did the harming. The people who told the truth don't need to make liars feel better about themselves or what they said. Those who were targeted by this war don't have to do all the peacemaking. Being gracious, issuing invitations -- sure for those who are up to it and see ways to do it constructively -- but not compromising or normalizing hate and discrimination and destruction. If reaching out and finding unity is good, the haters and liars can go find some olive branches and apologies and do the work to leave their will to destroy the rest of us behind. 

Then it begins. The party of hate never had a mandate; they lost the popular vote last time and this time; they may think of themselves as the real Americans and the gatekeepers but we don't have to, and we don't have to enter their gates or play by their rules. We don't have to hate them either, but we don't have to protect them from the consequences of their choices or sell out our principles for their comfort. When you stand on the ground of truth and justice, let others find their way to you. If you stand firm, many will in the end. Not everyone will; that does not change what truth and justice are.”

     ~~ Rebecca Solnit - Writer, Historian, & Activist

[Roisin Ni Fiachra]

96. Nope. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck,

and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

"History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme." - Mark Twain

No quarter for fascists or Nazis; we recognize the marked similarity, and we will not repeat the tragic mistakes made by Western Europe in the 1920's, 1930's and early to mid 1940's. We are rooting them out right at this moment, and will prevent them from ever gaining power again in the US, like they did during the Trump administration.

The U.S. Holocaust Museum is wrong to deny that Trump’s racism resembles Nazism
Michael Hiltzik
7/15/19
snip.......

Dehumanizing language, Luft told me by email, “does not cause violence, but it helps pave the way when others are silent by normalizing extreme perspectives, raising the costs of protest, and granting legitimacy to those who believe entire social groups are threats to the national community.”

In this atmosphere, it’s not proper for the Holocaust Museum to fence off the Holocaust from its analogies to the present day. Edna Friedberg the Holocaust Museum historian who wrote its 2018 statement, argued there that “the nature of Nazi crimes demands that we study the evidence, alert ourselves to warning signs, wrestle with the world’s moral failure. When we reduce it to a flattened morality tale, we forfeit the chance to learn from its horrific specificity. We lose sight of the ordinary human choices that made genocide possible.”

That’s correct. But what that doesn’t excuse from seeing and exposing the parallels between the methods, policies and rhetoric of the Trump administration and Nazi practices. Luft properly observes that no scholar is arguing that “genocide is next.” But the behavior of the Trump administration is “absolutely a parallel. And it is a parallel we should all fight to change. Mass murder need not be the only form of state violence deserving of protest.”

The museum’s objection to historical analogy is “preparing the way for tomorrow’s horror” Snyder wrote. “That the next atrocity will be different than the last one is not a reason to let it happen. It will be ours, and we have been warned.”

https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-fi-hiltzik-trump-holocaust-20190715-story.html

Thanks for your concern.

[WarGamer]

102. Wow!! So different people have different opinions!! I'm shocked.

I'll stand with the USHMM.

Holocaust deniers and anti-semites certainly enjoy watching people denigrate the pain and suffering of the victims of REAL Nazism.

[Captain Stern]

97. Saying two things are comparable is not saying they are exactly the same.

Generally, when we compare things we are noting similarities between the two things. That is not the same as saying there are no dissimilarities between the two things.

There are definitely many similarities between trump's and hitler's regimes, so it's a fair comparison.

[PatSeg]

101. Welcome to DU!

"It does a great disservice to History and the victims of ACTUAL Nazism to conflate villains and political opponents to historical figures."

I think it does a great disservice to possible future victims to not make historical comparisons. That is the whole point of studying history so we don't repeat it. This is our way of trying to fulfill the promise of "Never again".

You generated an interesting debate however,

[jalan48]

110. Slur? Comparison maybe.

[Mosby]

111. I agree with Dr. Friedberg nt.

[rusty fender]

113. I suggest you watch "Rise of the Nazis"

It is a documentary in 3 parts that was shown on PBS. It never mentions Trump, but you will see him and his enablers in just about every frame

[WarGamer]

114. lol...

I've seen it. It's a fair representation, albeit dumbed down for the masses and sensationalized.

Here's the problem.

Look at ANY Totalitarian regime over the past century or so and you'll see the SAME characteristics. ALL totalitarian regimes share common characteristics.

You see 1920's Weimar Republic in 2020, some might see pre-Revolution USSR. Others might see Maoist China.

[rusty fender]

115. Exactly!

That’s why it isn’t a laughing matter

[WarGamer]

116. the "lol"

was more directed at the documentary with it's musical score and dramatic flourishes...

Nothing funny about Totalitarians, Fascists and Authoritarians.

[Hekate]

117. Before you further accuse us of misusing history, perhaps you should see this propaganda film...

...and its analysis.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100215063237

The rank anti-Semitism is right there, and has been building for some time.

[anamnua]

119. Much as I repudiate Trump he cannot be accused of mass murder. NT

[Hekate]

121. Half a million COVID victims might beg to differ...

Also, Hitler did not start out with gas ovens. He created the enemy/enemies, stirred the mob, and made sure that people who were not in the mob — but adored his mass rallies — really didn’t care what happened to the “other.”

It takes time to unwind a society.

[anamnua]

123. This is a serious stain on his record.

However there is serious difference between lives lost through negligence and incompetence and the planned, deliberate murder of an specific ethnic group. The irony is that many of the half a million must have been Trump voters.
Don't get me wrong, I think Trump is a nasty piece of work. However comparisons with Hitler can only be used in extremis.

[Hekate]

124. We feel the republic is in extremis

[WarGamer]

125. Who bears responsibility for the 740k+ deaths in Europe?

Take the top European countries combined and they have more fatalities than the USA.

Those countries combined, btw... similar population size to the USA.

Just curious where you place the blame for those...

[Hekate]

126. You really want to play devil's advocate, don't you? I'm not that interested, as we just had a devil

...in charge here, by which I mean a malignant narcissist with paranoid and sadistic characteristics. He was not so much incompetent as he was malevolently uninterested in any interests but his own, and the rest of us be damned.

Europe, sad to say, is going to have to take care of its own battles for the time being, as the former “indispensable nation” (America) is reeling under its own assaults from within. Therefore I have little to say about their current troubles that has not already been said elsewhere.

[WarGamer]

127. I'm certainly not going to defend Trump. His response was putrid.

Read a VERY good article recently, can't remember the source...

But it stated that when the USA is compared to nations with similar cultures, economies, infrastructure and demographics the death rates are surprisingly similar except for a few outliers like Germany which the analysis credited to the inherent "obedience" of the German people.

But UK, France, Belgium, Spain, Italy, Netherlands, etc... all similar to the USA.

[AntiFascist]

120. You pride yourself on historical accuracy...

yet I see little discussion on this thread about the origins of German Nazism. In fact, much of that history has probably been swept under the rug due to American involvement.

Italian fascism has deep and old roots, including theoretical writings by Catholic scholars (sorry I no longer have a link). The creators of the Nuremberg Laws (anti-Jewish legislation), however, were directly influenced by the way that America had codified racism into its legal system:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/11/what-america-taught-the-nazis/540630/

If Trump were still president, how much of that "codification" would be getting reinstituted? How much of it still exists?

I would agree that nothing should compare to Nazism at the time of the Holocaust, but the origins of Nazism have really never disappeared and have only gotten rebranded as they threaten to resurface.

[Hekate]

122. Thanks. I'm saving the article & its reference to the book this time around. nt

[Dem2]

128. Good points

It is difficult to draw comparisons at times. I don't have the answer, but your questions are appropriate.

I'm not surprised at the pushback, but I agree that there must be a better way to attack such human filth when it becomes mainstream.