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Cheezoholic

(1,996 posts)
Wed Mar 24, 2021, 12:06 AM Mar 2021

I am done being sick to my stomach

40 years I've heard the left denounce gun violence, the right defend, falsely, the 2nd amendment right for individuals to own guns unimpeded. I am so tired of promises from the left that we're going to fix this. I am so tired of the right saying guns don't kill people do. I'M FUCKING TIRED OF BOTH SIDES BULLSHIT!! I can't drive a car without it being registered, without a history of that car's ownership. Both sides need to get the fucking money out of their pockets and do the hard thing. Democrats are just as guilty, they've had opportunity's, Democrats are not immune to this sickness damnit. Go ahead kick me off here for saying something bad about the left again. This couldve been solved 30 years ago but the left didn't stand up when they had the chance.

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I am done being sick to my stomach (Original Post) Cheezoholic Mar 2021 OP
Agree that it's time to do something without playing politics. Hoyt Mar 2021 #1
When did we have a chance 30 years ago? electric_blue68 Mar 2021 #2
Exactly. Sogo Mar 2021 #5
Think when Clinton signed the Brady Bill wellst0nev0ter Mar 2021 #6
Brady Bill 👍 Gingrich - barf 😠 electric_blue68 Mar 2021 #7
What have you done to help 'the left' to 'solve this' in the past 30 years? Hugh_Lebowski Mar 2021 #3
Good questions. To paraphrase a good Dem president, wnylib Mar 2021 #9
1991? Claire Oh Nette Mar 2021 #4
I share your frustration. Laffy Kat Mar 2021 #8
We (that is republicans) are waiting until it's too late. Turbineguy Mar 2021 #10
Independents from rural states have voted against gun control. betsuni Mar 2021 #11
I'm fucking tired of ignorant both-siders blaming Democrats for Republicans' actions. Scrivener7 Mar 2021 #12
Well since my post is "crap" and I'm doing nothing but blaming the left for the rights sins... Cheezoholic Mar 2021 #13
Why ban hollow points? Dial H For Hero Mar 2021 #14
You ever been shot? Cheezoholic Mar 2021 #15
And as a note Cheezoholic Mar 2021 #16
Do you know why the cops use hollow-points? Straw Man Mar 2021 #17
Respectfully I'm not a cop Cheezoholic Mar 2021 #21
No. You said the purpose of self defense is to remove the threat. Hollow points are the load of Dial H For Hero Mar 2021 #23
To your first point.. Cheezoholic Mar 2021 #24
hollow points need to be banned, and I am sorry you are so frightened that you need big murderous Demsrule86 Mar 2021 #28
This message was self-deleted by its author ExTex Mar 2021 #18
My guess is you are going to continue "being sick to my stomach" and do nothing Kaleva Mar 2021 #19
What the hell are you saying? Cheezoholic Mar 2021 #20
What have you done? Kaleva Mar 2021 #22
Once again, wth are you talking about? Cheezoholic Mar 2021 #25
I asked a simple question which you've bee unable to answer. Kaleva Mar 2021 #30
I too would be interested Disaffected Mar 2021 #31
How do you know whether or not the poster has done anything? Treefrog Mar 2021 #26
When I've asked if he's done anything, he doesn't give examples. Kaleva Mar 2021 #29
Ok I get it but you don't Cheezoholic Apr 2021 #32
More blaming Democrats with much heat amd emotion but no solutions. Demsrule86 Mar 2021 #27
More than votes.... Cheezoholic Apr 2021 #33
K & R for truth n/t malaise Apr 2021 #34
I don't see it that way. pwb Apr 2021 #35
 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
1. Agree that it's time to do something without playing politics.
Wed Mar 24, 2021, 12:21 AM
Mar 2021

Biden led the way today, but at best we’ll get some watered down legislation to say we did something.

 

wellst0nev0ter

(7,509 posts)
6. Think when Clinton signed the Brady Bill
Wed Mar 24, 2021, 01:18 AM
Mar 2021

And the assault weapons ban, that was the last major pushback against guns, but of course we had the Gingrich revolution and dems have been skittish on gun control ever since.

 

Hugh_Lebowski

(33,643 posts)
3. What have you done to help 'the left' to 'solve this' in the past 30 years?
Wed Mar 24, 2021, 12:28 AM
Mar 2021

Lay it on me, I'm all ears.

What's been your active contribution?

And separately from that, I think 'the right' and 'the courts' (and the Founders) bear quite a bit more 'blame' than 'the left'.

wnylib

(21,244 posts)
9. Good questions. To paraphrase a good Dem president,
Wed Mar 24, 2021, 02:35 AM
Mar 2021

Ask not what your party can do for you; ask what you can do for your party.

Claire Oh Nette

(2,636 posts)
4. 1991?
Wed Mar 24, 2021, 12:42 AM
Mar 2021

Democratic President Bill Clinton got a ten year ban on assault weapons through in 1994. The one that cut mass shootings by 1/3? That legislation the GOP allowed to sunset in 2004? After which, mass shootings increased by over 225%?

Yeah, the Left...

Licenses. Background checks. End Gun Shows, period. Psych exams.and ban all military style assault weapons.

Turbineguy

(37,276 posts)
10. We (that is republicans) are waiting until it's too late.
Wed Mar 24, 2021, 04:20 AM
Mar 2021

Putin has the greatest war strategy ever. A country that invades itself.

Scrivener7

(50,888 posts)
12. I'm fucking tired of ignorant both-siders blaming Democrats for Republicans' actions.
Wed Mar 24, 2021, 08:42 AM
Mar 2021

It is a great way to let Republicans off the hook and ensure nothing gets done.

This OP is crap.

(PS: I changed my name y'all. I used to be Squinch.)

Cheezoholic

(1,996 posts)
13. Well since my post is "crap" and I'm doing nothing but blaming the left for the rights sins...
Thu Mar 25, 2021, 12:29 AM
Mar 2021

I have one question, why hasn't anything been done. Brady Bill? Thats Swiss Cheese and we all know it. The assault weapons ban? So weak and did not address the issues AT ALL which is registration, which is licensing, which is background checks, which is requiring, at a minimum, to regulate weapons the same way we regulate the only other potentially deadly weapon citizens own, a fucking car. Democrats have pussy footed this issue long enough. Yes they have passed more legislation than the right on this, but it's always with weak legs at best. Yes the left has the right ideas that need to be done but those ideas get washed out by the time it gets to any type of law.
Taking guns away from people won't work. Making it unlawful to own weapons that people already own won't work. Denying people from owning an AR-15 won't work. Requiring licenses and requiring registration of ALL firearms will work. More importantly, strict regulation of ammunition, by type, even banning ammunition like hollow points, from the current firearms in the wild should be of the highest priority. There's no reason for any gun enthusiast to own hollow points period for example. That would immediately reduce the the potential lethality of any firearm by 30 or 40%.
I am a liberal gun owner. I have 23 different firearms. I enjoy shooting guns. I was raised shooting guns. Before the NRA was hijacked in the late 70's I was trained on gun safety by that very body. That's what the NRA was then, gun safety for hunters and especially for young people. It was almost a requirement to go through an NRA safety course before you could even hunt with your elders, many of which went through the same NRA safety training when they were young. Local NRA meetings were almost like going to a Moose Lodge dinner. Not so much anymore.
What have I done? I have many friends that I go shoot with at the range. Most of them have been avid anti gun regulation. I can tell you, and I am emphatic about this, I have opened up their understanding of gun regulation to the point most of them are now all for proper gun regulation. It's not gun control. I despise that phrase and wish the left and right would quit using it. It immediately implies Army trucks driving through cities and towns forcing people to throw their firearms in the trucks at gun point. Yes, this is what many gun owners believe.
The misinterpretation of the 2nd Amendment has forever cursed us with the most heavily armed population per capita in the world, we're not going to get rid of what's out there. What we can do, should've already done, is license and regulate firearms just as we do vehicles. And that's what I meant about 30 years ago. You can't "ban" firearms that are already out there. You can't make it illegal to sell firearms that were legally purchased for decades. How would you feel if cars weren't regulated and suddenly the government decided that certain vehicles were deadly weapons and must be surrendered and you had 30k invested in one of those vehicles.
The entire reason of my post was yes, I get sick to my stomach because just not the right refusing to acknowledge the issue using it as a policy point to play politics at the expense of innocent lives, but also at the lefts ineptitude at properly addressing the issue. For Gods sake, this issue can be fixed if either side would stop going to the extreme for political gain. Regulate the damn things like cars, shit can ammunition that even the Geneva Convention has banned from warfare, and acknowledge we're in too deep when it comes to firearms. Education like the NRA used to do, regulation like we currently do with vehicles and licensing like we currently do with drivers. IMHO this is the only way out of the infection of firearms that has festered way to long in this country. Both arguments can be satisfied with truth and honest leadership that doesn't have Smith and Wesson in their pockets.

 

Dial H For Hero

(2,971 posts)
14. Why ban hollow points?
Thu Mar 25, 2021, 01:08 AM
Mar 2021

The point of a gun used in self defense is to stop someone intent on unjustifiably harming you. Under that circumstance, I want the most effective tool possible. I'm not going to use a BB gun, or a .22. If I use a handgun, it's going to be a 9mm of normal capacity (15 rounds or more), and I'm not about to load it with full metal jacket rounds. I'm going to use the most effective ammuntiion I can, high quality hollowpoints that reliably expand to a diameter of .6 inches or more.

Similarly, if I'm using a shotgun for self defense I'm not going use a double barrel loaded with birdshot. It will be something along the lines of a Benelli M4 semiauto loaded with 8 rounds of 00 buckshot.

Cheezoholic

(1,996 posts)
15. You ever been shot?
Thu Mar 25, 2021, 02:40 AM
Mar 2021

No reason for hollow points for self defense. You got time to put hollow points into someone you got time to unload a straight up 9mm jacket clip. Self defense is about removing the threat. If you hunt you don't use hollow points unless your a shitty shot and want deer chili. I took a .223 in the thigh into my femur in a hunting "accident" when I was 17. I was on the ground in a millisecond. If that would've been a hollow point I'd have 1 leg, if I lived. The argument that one needs the most lethal ammunition to defend oneself is ridiculous. When in that position you either get the first shot off or you don't. Standard ammo, especially modern ammo, is more than enough to knock someone on their ass if your the first to respond. You don't take a bazooka to kill a mosquito. It makes no sense and there is no proof that a hollow point makes you more safe than standard ammo. Self protection scenario studies have never shown that the more lethal ammo the victim has saves there lives anymore than standard ammo.

Cheezoholic

(1,996 posts)
16. And as a note
Thu Mar 25, 2021, 02:51 AM
Mar 2021

I am not a member of the NRA. I revoked my membership at the urging of my grandfather, a WWII vet and lifetime member which he revoked, back in 1978 when Harlon Carter and his crew of terrorist's enacted a coup on the NRA to fully turn it into what it is today, a terrorist organization as far as I'm concerned.

Straw Man

(6,621 posts)
17. Do you know why the cops use hollow-points?
Thu Mar 25, 2021, 03:08 AM
Mar 2021

Two reasons:

1) One or two shots will usually stop the assailant and end the encounter. Medical attention can then be sought. The purpose of hollow-points is to cause massive tissue damage and immediately debilitating injury. Full-metal-jacket bullets don't cause as much tissue damage, but penetrate deeper, causing injury to vital organs. Putting 15 rounds of full-metal-jacket into the assailant will not stop the threat as quickly, but will almost certainly guarantee fatal injuries.

2) Full-metal-jacket bullets are much more likely to pass completely through the assailant and end up who-knows-where -- possibly in the body of an innocent bystander. For people who may have to use their handguns to defend themselves in a setting where there are other people around, hollow-points are much safer.

Cheezoholic

(1,996 posts)
21. Respectfully I'm not a cop
Thu Mar 25, 2021, 08:00 AM
Mar 2021

Regardless of anyone's feelings on law enforcement use of deadly force, law enforcement officer's are roughly 600 to 700 percent more likely to be in a weapons hot scenario with bystanders close by than an individual citizen. Using the fact that HP's are technically "safer" to bystanders for the reasons you suggest, statistically true reasons, but because law enforcement uses them is kinda skewed. Does that justify HP's being made available to the general public? While thinly debatable I don't believe that argument is sufficient. Besides the fact that law enforcement will engage more often than individuals in a weapons hot scenario there is zero non biased data out there that shows HP's making a difference in any weapons hot self defense cases. There certainly is no data or for that matter, reason, that a civilian needs access to HP's for rifles, such as the dreaded AR-15, which I might say is a false "dread" as it's just a deer rifle made to look like a military weapon to sell more, hence my previous points.
90% of civilians will never need to defend themselves with a firearm. Of the 10% that may, 90% of them will never get to their defensive weapon. Of the few left, it's 50/50 whether they survive.
Look, you can have a glock on your hip walking out of Taco bell with a bag full of Tacos and some asshole cocked and ready sticks a barrel to your head wanting your wallet, car whatever. Youre not gonna snap that quick release, pull your glock and shoot him first, hollow point or not. This ain't Cisco Kid shit man. If one thinks they're John Wayne they're gonna die.
The point is to keep highly lethal ammunition where it belongs. 75gr HP .223's in Boulder at 4k ft per second. Indefensible man.

 

Dial H For Hero

(2,971 posts)
23. No. You said the purpose of self defense is to remove the threat. Hollow points are the load of
Thu Mar 25, 2021, 02:32 PM
Mar 2021

choice for that very reason.

If you hunt you don't use hollow points unless your a shitty shot and want deer chili.


If that is the case, then why do 99% of hunters use expanding bullets such as soft points and polycarbonate tipped hollow poinits when hunting big game? In point of fact, using full metal jacket bullets on big game is considered to be poor sportsmanship, as they're more likely to simply wound the animal rather than kill it cleanly.


Self protection scenario studies have never shown that the more lethal ammo the victim has saves there lives anymore than standard ammo.


On the contrary, I can link to a number of studies which show that expanding bullets stop an attacker more quickly and with fewer shot fired. Would you like me to do so?

Cheezoholic

(1,996 posts)
24. To your first point..
Wed Mar 31, 2021, 03:06 AM
Mar 2021

of course hollow points are the ammo of choice. Just like nukes are the ammo of choice. But you can't convince me that hollow points made available to the general public are anymore effective in self defense than other available ammo. All that does is make lethal ammo available to everyone and the ammo dealer wins.

To your second point you made my case. I never condoned FMJ for hunting ammo. Hunting ammo is supposed to be lethal and humane. Principals the OLD NRA stood on. The ammo you listed are not full blown hollow points. Manufactures have the technology to produce a lethal but humane piece of ammo.

Post the studies you you say you can reference. I'm not trying to hide anything or spread misinformation.

I posted this reactionary to my disgust of yet another mass shooting by an unstable individual that not only wasted the lives of innocent people but also that threatens my ability to engage in a sport/hobby I enjoy, a sport/hobby I take great lengths to make safe, a sport/hobby that I wish to protect. I will be the first in line to hand over my guns if thats what is called for' But I'm also first in line to try and educate people about this and to also 100% promote regulation and training. It is a sport/hobby, it is not a right period. If you think it's an individual right then I don't know wth I'm doing on this board. The founders never conceived automobiles. They began as a sport/hobby then they became weapons of crime they became weapons used to kill. Automobiles became a privledge because they became harmful to the untrained innocent.. That's why they are regulated. We have speed limits, safety requirements of the construction, LICENSING to make sure you are trained in the operation. REGISTRAISION to track the potential dark side of millions of these potential weapons being sold every year.
I have a drivers license, but I cant drive a semi. I want to buy hollow points I should need a license at a minimum.

Demsrule86

(68,440 posts)
28. hollow points need to be banned, and I am sorry you are so frightened that you need big murderous
Wed Mar 31, 2021, 08:47 AM
Mar 2021

guns to defend yourself. Personally, I would move. As a woman who some years ago actually defended herself in a rural area, I can assure you a regular shotgun or even a rifle works just fine.

Response to Cheezoholic (Original post)

Kaleva

(36,222 posts)
19. My guess is you are going to continue "being sick to my stomach" and do nothing
Thu Mar 25, 2021, 04:13 AM
Mar 2021

It's human nature to take vigorous action when dealing with a situation that the person feels very strongly about. Like Martin Luther King getting arrested or Gandhi going on a hunger strike.

It's also human nature to do little or nothing when dealing with an issue the person perceives to be of little to no importance. An example would be posting about one's opinion about an issue on a social/political forum and that's about it.

Which camp are you in?

Cheezoholic

(1,996 posts)
20. What the hell are you saying?
Thu Mar 25, 2021, 06:15 AM
Mar 2021

What makes you think I do nothing? Pretty pretentious of you to be accusatory on a social/political forum. I'm starting to understand that the expression of ones views around here is policed like an HOA. There's a reason I left this board 10 years ago. Perhaps I should just take my monthly dollars and contribute them somewhere else that I do nothing. Better than dealing with blind hypocrisy. Get over your self righteous self.

Kaleva

(36,222 posts)
22. What have you done?
Thu Mar 25, 2021, 11:35 AM
Mar 2021

How many times have you been arrested for engaging in peaceful civil disobedience protesting the lack of sensible gun control laws? My guess is not once.

You may think you feel strongly about this but your lack of actions show the opposite. It's human nature. It's a scientific fact that humans take vigorous action when dealing with an issue they feel is very important. It's a scientific fact that humans do little to nothing when dealing with an issue they feel is of little importance.

There's nothing wrong in not caring about gun control. That your decision.

Kaleva

(36,222 posts)
30. I asked a simple question which you've bee unable to answer.
Wed Mar 31, 2021, 10:03 PM
Mar 2021

Human nature being what it is, the logical conclusion then is that this really isn't that big of a deal for you despite what you claim in your OP.

Disaffected

(4,533 posts)
31. I too would be interested
Wed Mar 31, 2021, 10:14 PM
Mar 2021

in what you have actually done to address the problem. Please cite some examples if there are any.

Kaleva

(36,222 posts)
29. When I've asked if he's done anything, he doesn't give examples.
Wed Mar 31, 2021, 09:59 PM
Mar 2021

The correct assumption would be that he hasn't then.

Cheezoholic

(1,996 posts)
32. Ok I get it but you don't
Sun Apr 4, 2021, 06:36 AM
Apr 2021

First of all if you read anything I posted on this subject I did explain some things I've done, probably more important things than most. Actually engaging gun owners and changing their minds from the NRA bullshit that's been fed to them. Get off your accusatory keyboard or your self righteous rule based checklist to judge the validity of ones dissent. I could make your question of my integrity rhetorical but I "assume" you've been following me for the 45 years of my adult life and already know the answer to your bullshit question.

Demsrule86

(68,440 posts)
27. More blaming Democrats with much heat amd emotion but no solutions.
Wed Mar 31, 2021, 06:55 AM
Mar 2021

The bottom line is you need the votes.

Cheezoholic

(1,996 posts)
33. More than votes....
Sun Apr 4, 2021, 06:56 AM
Apr 2021

the NRA is in a very vulnerable position right now. This is a time to revamp the NRA back to what it was 50 years ago. This is the basis of Bernies firearm philosophy. Instead of attacking and trying to destroy the NRA there needs to be a big push to convince NRA membership to turn it back into what it was, gun safety for hunters and their families. It simply was that before the firearm manufactures hijacked a group with millions of members in order to promote their own agenda, selling weapons. That has been my focus locally and I tell you what, the more of my friends that understand the corruption that has infected the NRA the more it pisses them off. Just like our country, it's time NRA membership takes their group back and sees through the bullshit being fed to them. To be honest, in my circle, I am surprised by the number of NRA heads that are coming to this conclusion.

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