Prof. Bandy X Lee, psychiatrist, fired by Yale U. for her anti-Trump tweets

[pnwmom]

https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2021/03/23/former-professor-says-yale-fired-her-over-tweet-on-trump-dershowitz/

Bandy Lee MED ’94 DIV ’95, a formerly Yale-affiliated faculty member in the Department of Psychiatry in School of Medicine, filed a complaint against the University on Monday alleging “unlawful termination… due to her exercise of free speech about the dangers of Donald Trump’s presidency.”

University spokesperson Karen Peart declined to comment on the specifics of the case. Yale was the only named defendant.

Lee’s complaint alleges that Yale fired her in response to a January 2020 tweet that characterized “just about all” of former president Donald Trump’s supporters as suffering from “shared psychosis” and said that Alan Dershowitz, a lawyer on Trump’s legal team, had “wholly taken on Trump’s symptoms by contagion.” Dershowitz responded to the tweet with a letter to Yale administrators, in which he complained that Lee’s tweet constituted “a serious violation of the ethics rules of the American Psychiatric Association” and requested that she be disciplined.

The legal action listed five causes, including breach of contract, breach of good faith and wrongful termination.

AND FROM THE DC REPORT, STANDING BY ONE OF ITS WRITERS.

Yale University fired Lee, an established professor on its medical school faculty, citing the misnamed Goldwater Rule. That non-governmental policy — a gag order in Lee’s view — directs mental health professionals to hold their tongues about the mental well-being of officials.

American citizens discuss Trump’s mind every day around their kitchen tables, in public forums and on national television. To deny the citizenry the insights of educated mental health professionals is more than absurd; it is an attack on the very principle of American democratic self-governance.

We believe every one of her opinion columns and interviews falls well within the boundaries of the highest standards of responsible journalism.

The rule is itself of dubious provenance and relevance. And, it is outdated. Yet one of America’s leading universities clings to this orthodoxy in firing Lee after 17 years on its medical school faculty for advancing and widening human understanding of public mental health and the deleterious effects of governance by a leader who suffers from severe delusions.

https://www.dcreport.org/2021/03/23/bandy-lee-we-stand-with-our-writer/

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

Side note: Yale is the same university that took no action against the professors who worked for Woody Allen in his custody action. The Yale prof who wrote that report never actually met the child, Dylan. None of the professors agreed to testify in the custody trial -- and, worst of all, they destroyed the notes that had been made of meetings with Dylan. Woody must have made a nice big donation.

[jimfields33]

1. Wow!

Now maybe trumpers can shut up acting like they are persecuted all the time which is annoying.

[gratuitous]

2. Dershowitz whined to the Yale powers-that-be

Story from Lawyers Guns & Money blog here.

Lee is suing Yale for firing her. I hope she gets a lot of money.

[ScratchCat]

3. She should have known better

And she isn't going to win this suit. It wasn't her personal opinion. Her comments constitute a medical diagnosis. Dershowitz is unfortunately right here about those comments being a serious violation of the ethics rule.

[pnwmom]

4. The actions she analyzed were all in the public sphere. Discussing them

shouldn't be a breach of ethics. He wasn't her patient.

[Irish_Dem]

9. Psych professionals are not allowed to make a public dx for people who are not patients.

Of course such matters are discussed privately amongst professionals. But cannot be made public if you want to keep your license. The premise is that you have not interviewed or examined the patient personally and making a dx would be using very limited information.

For example, if a public figure exhibits manic behavior you don't really know what the dx is until you talk to him or her. Could be mania, could be drugs, could be a number of issues.

[pnwmom]

16. The premise doesn't apply in this case, because she was making the diagnosis

Last edited Wed Mar 24, 2021, 04:11 PM - Edit history (1)

based on a mountain of information -- far more than any psychiatrist would have about a patient sitting in his office.

She hasn't been a member of the American Psychiatric Association, the only org that promotes the Goldwater rule, since 2007, and Yale never required her to.

[Irish_Dem]

42. Ethical rules still apply. Even with a great deal of public information.

It is against the rules. You may not make public dx without examining the patient.

For example in the case of Trump, we know he is mentally ill.
He displays manic behavior, but we don't know if it is from drugs or bi-polar illness.
We would have to interview the patient to determine this.

A mental health professional associated with a university needs to follow the law and ethics of their profession, whether or not they are in the APA. They set examples for students.

[pnwmom]

43. You may have to interview him to determine the cause of his mania, but not

of his unfitness for office, which he demonstrated every day. And hundreds of other mental health professionals signed her document, but they haven't lost their jobs because Alan Dersh didn't complain about them.

Link to tweet

This rule is far more lax than the psychiatrists' guideline, because it does not prohibit psychologists from making public statements about celebrities' or politicians' mental health. ... And again, this rule applies only to APA members — not all psychologists, and not all mental health professionals.

The Goldwater rule is an outdated, archaic ethical guideline that applies only to psychiatrists who are members of the American Psychiatric Association — and no one else. The media would do well to educate and inform themselves moving forward, and understand the paternalistic, outdated reasoning behind the rule. Trotting it out as though it were a widespread and well-accepted ethics guideline is a farce and factually incorrect. It clearly is not.

https://psychcentral.com/blog/what-the-media-get-wrong-about-the-goldwater-rule#1

[progressoid]

23. 350 health professionals sign letter to Congress claiming Trump's mental health is deteriorating...

Dr Lee told Business Insider by email on Friday morning that the number of signatories had risen to 773. She said that she was prepared with two other psychiatrists to consult with lawmakers about the effect of impeachment on the president's mental health.

...

Lee told Business Insider that they were not breaking ethical rules for psychiatrists, because of a clause in the APA rules obliging psychiatrists "to educate the public when asked about a public figure, so that we may improve the community and better public health."

She said "whenever the Goldwater rule is mentioned, we should also refer to the Declaration of Geneva, established by the World Medical Association 25 years earlier, which mandates physicians to speak up if there are humanitarian reasons to do so. This Declaration was created in response to the experience of Nazism."

https://www.businessinsider.com/psychiatrists-submit-warning-trumps-mental-health-deteriorating-2019-12

[Ilsa]

25. Her comments might fall under the Duty to Warn

Others of a nonpatient's instability and dangerousness.

[mopinko]

10. it was 1 thing w trump. but throwing out a blanket dx

of ppl she never spoke to is bound to get you in trouble.

[AZProgressive]

5. I think many psychiatrists would find Trump dangerous

I don't think Dershowitz has much credibility these days. I wish more people listened to the Duty to Warn people sooner.

[tblue37]

6. Death is always defending right wingers because he thinks their free speech is

being censored. He is defending Mike Lindell against Dominion on the basis of free speech, even though the government is not involved.

Apparently he thinks only Trumpers have a right to speak their minds.

[malaise]

7. She deserves national honors

Fuck Yale and the Skull and Bones posse

[malaise]

8. She deserves national honors

Fuck Yale and the Skull and Bones posse

[BSdetect]

11. She deserves a huge settlement and full reinstatement with apologies.

[lagomorph777]

12. If I was vastly rich and had a kid,

I would never send that kid to Yale. So many corrupt people and policies. Didn't Junior Bush go there?

[RVN VET71]

18. Georgie was a "legacy"

a word that, in this context, means a punk with no credentials who is admitted because of his Papa and, thereby, excludes a deserving student who lacks the clout and genes.

All Ivies do it, it’s just that with Bush it wasn’t a matter of a mediocre student given a tremendous opportunity to succeed. He was, in fact, a lousy student, intellectually dull and incurious, who evidently wasted his time at Yale. Millions of “Muricans”, especially Texas ‘Muricans -- would love to have a beer with him for precisely that reason.

[lagomorph777]

19. I'd like to have a beer with him.

I'd toss it in his smirky face.

[RVN VET71]

24. Do it and I'll buy the next round.

Let’s see: allowed 9/11 because he dismissed Clinton’s warnings; launched an illegal war in Iraq, based on bald-faced lies, killing 5,000 Americans (military and contractors); allowed New Orleans to languish in hell after Katrina; cut taxes unnecessarily and thereby created a huge increase in the national debt and budget deficit; engineered the worst Depression since 1929; and don’t forget Admiral Poindexter (Georgie’s appointee to the Pentagon) and the plan for Total Information Awareness. I could go on, but there isn’t enough beer in the country to throw in his face for all the ugly things he (and Dick Cheney) did to America and the world.

[DFW]

35. Make that "Texas Republicans," please

There are over 5 million Texas Democrats who wouldn't cross the street to say hi to him.

[marie999]

13. Any doctor that makes a clinical diagnosis of someone not his/her patient

or of a patient without a signed HIPAA form should be fired.

[pnwmom]

15. They merely analyzed publicly available videos. They don't need a signed HIPAA to do that.

They breached no confidentiality, and there was far more evidence in the public sphere than any psychiatrist would get by talking to a client in their office.

[bucolic_frolic]

20. Yes it would be interesting to know what's clinical about public information

[marie999]

22. She made a psychiatric analysis from watching some videos.

What she did is against the rules of the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, and the American Medical Association.

[pnwmom]

28. It is against the rules of the APA, and she hasn't been a member of that since 2007.

And membership in that org was never required by Yale.

Also, she's not a psychologist, so that org wouldn't apply.

Now please explain where in the rules of the AMA does it say that she can't offer her professional opinion based on a mountain of publicly available evidence. And, why, if she violated any of their rules, she still has her medical license.

[marie999]

37. 2017 Council on Ethical and Judicial Affairs.

[pnwmom]

39. I didn't find it in there. Where is it? n/t

[erronis]

34. All of those groups you list (APA, APA, AMA) are cartels and lobbyists. Add the ABA, NRA, etc.

They are there to collect fees and to keep members in line.

[grantcart]

30. "Just about all" of T's supporters "have a shared psychosis" lol

[lindysalsagal]

45. Yes, but, rules are bent when it comes to publicly elected officials.

I wonder if they warned her before firing her? Did they give her the chance to take them down and stop posting?

[marie999]

49. Very good questions.

[Pachamama]

14. I'm not sure she should reply & retweet to someone named Bloopie Mcbloop

[kcr]

46. Okay, Pachamama n/t

[bucolic_frolic]

17. Power gonna side with power

[Duppers]

31. Great point....and quite possibly. nt

[Silent3]

26. I know there are professional ethics issues with this kind of stuff...

...but I think that needs to be balanced against the public good. It was blindingly obvious that Trump was terrifyingly unfit for office, and that much of the Republican party was going off the deep end with him. I only wish more mental health professionals of all kinds had been ringing alarm bells loud and clear before Trump even took office.

And they should still be sounding off about how this cult continues to threaten our democracy.

In the case of diagnosing Trump and his followers, and saying no one should do it without conducting a personal examination, it's like saying a doctor shouldn't say out loud that someone's arm has been cut off when everyone can see the severed limb on the ground and the bleeding stump. You don't need to wait for the X-rays and the blood panels to see what the fuck is going on.

[Duppers]

32. Exactly but they've different standards for mental health.

Lots of gray areas there.


(Sorry, the pun was too obvious. )

[Sympthsical]

27. She was dumb

It's one thing to give an opinion about a single public figure. That happened a lot during Trump's years, and no one was sanctioned for it.

What she did was diagnose all of Trump's supporters as suffering from a shared psychosis. That's what she's getting nailed for.

You just don't do that as a professional. Yeah, it's fine that people here on DU do it. We're not licensed professionals. We can spout off as we please. She cannot. And she knew that.

Just because she agrees with our politics does not mean she is not held to account of her ethical responsibilities.

"I agree with her, so no consequences!" Yeah, that's not how all this works.

[AZProgressive]

29. She is likely correct

She said this before the Capitol riots. Part of psychosis are delusions or false beliefs.

I'm not a psychiatrist so there are no ethical concerns with me but I am familiar with the condition. I don't think it is all Trump voters but the Qanon followers & others definitely.

'Shared psychosis': Mental health expert dissects Trump voters' unwavering support that 'defies rationality'
Bandy X. Lee, DC Report @Raw Story
December 05, 2020




Yesterday, Donald Trump gave a 46-minute speech that alarmed many. Here are some of the things he said: “We were leading in all swing states far greater than they ever thought possible.” “Millions of votes were cast illegally[, and] I went from leading by a lot, to losing by a little.”

Those who still have their rationality intact will not find anything compelling about his repetitive arguments and will rather find only his persistence puzzling. But he is conditioning the minds of his followers to take up his cause as their own and going so far as to give implicit orders. I have stated on a number of occasions that mental symptoms can be more persuasive than rational strategy because of their emotional drive. They can recruit you into an alternative system of thinking that defies rationality.

Donald Trump’s former national security adviser, Michael Flynn, and his former attorney have already suggested that he step outside the Constitution to force some sort of military-supervised re-vote. In addition to their corruption, opportunism, and criminal disposition, a powerful emotional drive underlies this alignment. This is an example of what is called “shared psychosis,” or “folie à plusieurs” (madness in several), which is a well-documented phenomenon whose power not be underestimated.

Its impact and danger are huge, as it divides the whole nation into those who are living in reality and those who are not, as we confront two immediate crises: the election and a pandemic that is now killing Americans at the rate of one 9/11 per day.

https://www.rawstory.com/2020/12/shared-psychosis-mental-health-expert-dissects-trump-voters-unwavering-support-that-defies-rationality/

[Sympthsical]

33. She violated professional ethics

It's not even a contest. She's leaning on her politics for support. Which isn't a great thing, either.

I'd never go to a mental health professional who was comfortable with diagnosing all her political opponents with such blanket statements.

Would you seek mental health assistance from someone who was posting on Twitter, "Liberals are mentally ill?"

You wouldn't. Neither would I. And that's precisely what she did here.

[BigmanPigman]

36. Dershowitz, figures.

That slime should probably be in jail. Start with his associations with Epstein, that needs to be investigated more.

[marie999]

38. If some psychiatrist said that President Biden was psychotic

you all would be screaming.

[pnwmom]

40. Why are you making blanket assumptions about us?

If there was a mountain of evidence that Biden was psychotic, I wouldn't object to university professor psychiatrists pointing it out. I would want him to step down and let Kamala Harris take over.

[Hekate]

41. You were not here during the bulk of Trump's misbegotten reign. Over & above the sickening...

...sense of being appalled, was the overwhelming question of WHY. As in WHY, GOD, WHY?

Many of us, laypersons and professionals, tried to sort that out as best we could. Frankly, we were grateful for the medical and psychiatric pros who chimed in, as it helped lend some context to what we were experiencing.

Incidentally — do you also object to Mary Trump’s book? Do you also think she needs to be expelled from her academic job? And if so, why?

[kcr]

47. Is President Biden psychotic?

[marie999]

48. I don't think so, but I don't know since I am not a psychiatrist and even if I was,

I have not treated him.