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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsYo, brother Carville? Ain't no such thing as "too woke."
We need to talk. You need to listen.
Ain't no such thing as "too woke" in the service of democracy.
NO, Carville, "wokeness" is not a "problem." WOKE IS CONSCIOUSNESS. Of America's actual history of racism, sexism, pollution, voting rights politics.
"Woke" is only a problem for the stupid, as in "It's the economy, stupid."
You need to stop serving up RW talking points to Republicans.
Black people coined that term, and right wing whites think they can denigrate it -- starting with Bill Maher, a Democrat who barely tolerates Democrats.
This "woke" denigration is a re-hash of the old denigration of "political correctness" -- which was always really about moral correctness and how it aggravated the shit out of Americans who wanted to be judgmental of their fellows in the name of freeedom! Something Christians ought to recognize.
Woke has become a dog whistle for anti-Black sentiment. Black people coined the term WOKE back in the pre-BLM days. Now racist whites think they can denigrate it. Bill Maher ain't woke, and neither are you to try to "start somethin" in your party.
You, brother Carville, muddy public discourse and "start shit." You seldom think through how to shatter right wing sound bite bullshit.
Yours is the help that is no help. Fall back.
As Fran Liebowitz thoughtfully says: Think before you speak. Read before you think.
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Hawker123
(74 posts)Sadly I think we will lose seats in 22 because some don't see it. We will no longer get any help from republicans sitting out or voting for Biden. Redistricting and gerrymandering won't help. We need to start working today on getting voters to the polls to get around the voter suppression laws. I fear we we will come up up with more terrible slogans and wait to long to act again. I truly fear we will lose both house and senate even as 70 plus percent approve of most of Biden's policies. Republicans will lie and their voters will believe the lies.
ancianita
(36,048 posts)Woke is about knowing the issues you raise. He's just starting wedge-talk within the party which distracts from the issues you raise.
You can channel your fear toward thinking like Biden. He's woke.
We outthink and outvote Republicans by party registration numbers alone. Go read more numbers when you fear what you fear.
Hawker123
(74 posts)Nice to know, thank you 👍
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)Republicans did a better job at registering new voters than democrats did in the run up to the election. And because many never Trump republicans were still republicans and either voting for Biden or skipping voting for President, voted straight republican on down ballot races.
ancianita
(36,048 posts)The only numbers that can be linked are numbers from gerrymandering and voting suppression in red states that have worked against free and fair elections for a long time.
Black people like Stacey Abrams, Eric Holder, Greg Palast and Marc Elias are the most woke fighters in that arena.
Demsrule86
(68,556 posts)liberal, I believe we are a center-left country at best. Biden was perceived as a moderate. He is not a moderate. I told people on this board that he would surprise them if he was elected. He is a liberal really. But while we have big numbers in California and New York...given our system of government, we need to be able to win North Carolina, Alabama, Montana, etc. in order to hold significant majorities. Carville is correct. A 50 state strategy with candidates tailored to the state or district as Howard Dean did is our best chance to win a significant majority where we can implement policy. And while great progressives like AOC can win in very blue districts, she can't win in moderate districts or states. I would like to see that change as we win hearts and minds but that only is possible if you win. Every time the GOP gets into power we move further to the right.
ancianita
(36,048 posts)I agree with most of what you say, but this thread isn't about that; it's about nipping squabbling about the clear misuse of the word. We must not let that become a sales pitch for the Right in the states we have to win.
Demsrule86
(68,556 posts)moment and to deny that is to deny reality. Also, we have no way to stop gerrymandering in these states. We have lost 9 house seats by my reckoning with the new census. And with more states in GOP hands than in ours that is going to cost us. I hope we hold the House. It will be tough...the Senate is up for grabs too. Hershel Walker will give Sen. Warnock a run for his money. Football stars are worshipped in Georgia. I used to live there. I wish Breyer would retire right now or we could end up with a 7-2 court.
ancianita
(36,048 posts)I know what we need to do and yes, it will be tough. But we need to not give Carville a national platform on strategy.
Demsrule86
(68,556 posts)are quite a few Democrats here but many don't vote mostly over manufacturing issues...(please Democrats never say the jobs are not coming back). I see how many states are in GOP hands and the gerrymander which is going to be even worse than before and realize there is a very narrow path to hold a majority in 22 and beyond. And the only way to do this is to run moderates in the states we need to win...and terms like "defund the police", or "woke"...are going to hurt this effort. Sure, I get it, but I am already voting Democratic...nothing will change that. The voter we need will not get it and they are not locked in to vote for us. Look at where our Senatorial gains have been...red and purple states. Also, it was moderates that gave us the House- not progressives. We need to remember that.
BumRushDaShow
(128,905 posts)No. I will disagree. And we had Hershel Walker here in Philly briefly playing for the Eagles.
The black folk in GA are not stupid. Walker has a past history of being used as a spoiler and his full-throated support for 45 is not lost on the Democratic "base" in GA that put both Warnock and Ossoff into office. And as a note, I have multiple cousins and my mother's sister living there right now and people like Walker get the side eye.
appmanga
(571 posts)Walker is dumb as a brick and last I heard, he doesn't even live in Georgia. For most voters in Georgia Herschel Walker is like Columbus: someone from the history books. Tim Scott wins in South Carolina because black people there haven't been corralled into an organized opposition. They have been in Georgia. Also, no one should underestimate the continued influence of the black church and Sen. Warnock has that advantage.
Boydog
(718 posts)and he beat a very smart and capable candidate in Doug Jones. Those football guys in southern states are really looked up to.
CrackityJones75
(2,403 posts)Ok. Do you know much about Walker? Wait until he has to get up and talk.
Demsrule86
(68,556 posts)CrackityJones75
(2,403 posts)
Celerity
(43,333 posts)the voter rights/protection bills and cock-up police reform, both of which will supress the hell out of our base in two diffrent ways.
Another POS to watch out for is Lara Trump in NC. That last name will have every shitkicker QMAGAT vibrating in dark ecstasy/hate. The local Dem prognosticators in NC are not as high on Jeff Jackson as I am atm.
Hassan in NH (which is now Rethug trifecta at state level so suppression city here we come) is also in for a hell of a fight if Sununu runs.
Cortez Masto is at risk, but not a huge one after Sandoval turned down running.
Kelly should be safe I hope in AZ.
PA is by far our best chance for a pickup flip.
WI depends in what Johnson does and whi we chose and hiw bad the suppression and turnout is, especially with the Milwaukee black vote, which is notoriously hard to turn out.
I fear the House is perhaps gone, or damn close to it, as if your redistricting number is correct we are now down 4 seats in reality, instead of a 5 vote majority, and we have to fight that horrid historical tide that may come, plus the suppression.
Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #26)
CrackityJones75 This message was self-deleted by its author.
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)Marcuse
(7,479 posts)
intheflow
(28,463 posts)Instead of confronting our unequal, anti-BIPOC past, we change up the narrative and make the discussion not about the problem, but the people who bring the problem to light. People who bring up a problem are not the problem.
You point is a kind of quid pro quo: Woke people agree to shut up and be gaslit so you can get a more liberal government. Seriously, what the fuck? How about more robust defense of Black people 100% legit grievances. Maybe if the chorus was shouting that, it would drown out the lies that would lead to your supposition of losing seats, AND empower more people of color to GOTV. That would be a quid pro quo I could get behind.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)mountain grammy
(26,619 posts)luckone
(21,646 posts)
PunkinPi
(4,875 posts)marriage equality. They were told to wait their turn and not cause any waves during the election, right here on DU.
Withywindle
(9,988 posts)PEOPLE WHO BRING UP A PROBLEM ARE NOT THE PROBLEM.
Shout it from the rooftops.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)LetMyPeopleVote
(145,168 posts)I personally support reforms to the police. I worked hard and we got a good Democrat elected as District Attorney in my county two years ago and this cycle we got a good man elected as sheriff of my county. Our new DA has made a tremendous amount of difference in my county and I believe that the new Sheriff will also help. However, it is clear that we lost races that we should not have lost Defund the police was used very effectively by the GOP in down ballot races. A good number of races that Democrats should have won were lost due to this issue.
Link to tweet
Link to tweet
The GOP ran a ton of ads using this issue
Out of 31 broadcast TV ads that Trump and other allied campaign groups used to attack Biden and other Democrats for being soft on law and order, 11 spots ― that aired a total of 77,647 times ― explicitly mentioned “defund the police,” according to an analysis Kantar Media/CMAG conducted for HuffPost. And out of 216 Republican broadcast TV ads in congressional races blasting Democrats, 157 spots that aired 103,000 times used the phrase.
I was disappointed to seen Susan Collins re-elected. It seems that Collins was able to use the "defund the police" issue very effectively
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)LetMyPeopleVote
(145,168 posts)In the real world, we lost house seats that we should not have lost and we did not pick up any state legislatures. I worked on two state house seats that we lost when they ran "defund the police" ads. I like living in the real world
Link to tweet
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)LetMyPeopleVote
(145,168 posts)Do you tire of being wrong? I live in the real world and I have worked on campaigns and have been active on party issues for a long time. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2021/03/07/usa-today-ipsos-poll-just-18-support-defund-police-movement/4599232001/
The call to redistribute police budgets stemmed from Black Lives Matter activists and protesters who called to "defund the police" after the deaths of unarmed Black Americans at the hands of police, such as George Floyd and Breonna Taylor.
While some believe defunding the police is a call to get rid of law enforcement completely, many activists behind the slogan intended to make a more nuanced argument for police budgets to be steered toward community social programs so officers were less often required to take on roles better suited to social workers.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)LetMyPeopleVote
(145,168 posts)I like living in the real world. Do you ever tire of being wrong? https://thepoliticalinsider.com/gop-launches-ads-highlighting-defund-the-police-to-target-vulnerable-2022-dems/
The ads will run in five Democrat-held districts the GOP hopes to flip in 2022 on their way to a House majority.
The ad highlights left-wing calls to defund the nation’s police departments, and highlights ‘Squad’ member Rep. Rashida Tlaib‘s demand to abolish prisons.
From Yahoo News, NRCC Spokesman Michael McAdams said of the ad push,
“We are going to ensure every voter knows Democrats want to Defund the Police. Whether it’s Rashida Tlaib demanding an end to policing and incarceration, or Maxine Waters encouraging rioters to engage in violence, Democrats can’t be trusted to stand with law enforcement and keep Americans safe.”
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)They will attack us no matter what we say or do. And they tend to make the biggest deal out of whatever we're doing or saying that is the most effective.
So, no. The GOP running ads targeting something is not, in and of itself, proof that there's something wrong with it.
LetMyPeopleVote
(145,168 posts)Why make it easy for the GOP to attack us? These ads were effective because they in effect implied that some high profile progressives spoke for the party.
In 2018, we got a good man elected as District Attorney in my county A group led by a good friend got Soros to spend a good amount in this race and we defeated a GOP asshole. This led to some bail reform in part due to the COVID pandemic and a policy of in effect decriminalizing small amounts of pot due to a stupid hemp bill passed by the Texas legis (it was not economical to test small amounts of pots and so these cases were not prosecuted). The GOP is gearing up to try to unseat my friend because he is soft on crime and I am expecting a battle.
We do not need easy ads on "defund the police" to be part of this campaign
LetMyPeopleVote
(145,168 posts)Your lack of experience in the real world is sad
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)LetMyPeopleVote
(145,168 posts)Read the material posted or have someone who has worked in an actual campaign read it and explain it to you. Again, your claims that democrats who lost races due to GOP ads on Defund the Police are offensive and wrong. The GOP made good use of prominent progressives in ads attacking real Democrats using this ignorant slogan. Your claim that these real Democrats are bad candidates and bad Democrats is both wrong and shows that you have never worked in a campaign in the real world.
Again, we lost a number of races that we should have won in 2020 and your lack of experience in how races are conducted is very evident in your posts. Again, it is wrong and offensive to claim that Democrats who lost races due to these attacks are bad candidates.
caber09
(666 posts)Some people are just living in denial, it was one of the dumbest slogans in political history. If we..(meaning if the aocs etc drag us down with it) run on that again we will get creamed. I am in New York, it hurt in nyc for Christ sake and even worse in update and on Long Island. We should've expanded our numbers not lost them.
Hell defund is so unpopular in very liberal nyc along that almost no leading mayoral candidate is anywhere near for it...imagine how unpopular it is in other areas. You have showed different polls and comments from top politicians who agree with you and me...some people just cannot see the forest through the trees and are willing to lead us off the cliff resulting in more republicans in power.
Thankfully a non-defund the police candidate will probably win the nyc mayor race so here in the nyc area we can recover from the deblasio wing of the party that damaged us so much
LetMyPeopleVote
(145,168 posts)It has been clear to me that you have never worked in a campaign and have no idea as to how campaigns work in the real world. Your emphasis on exit polls has been a source of amusement to me in that this is a great example as to how little you understand how the real world operated. Thank you for the laughs
I finally decided to humor you (after all you have provide me with some good laughs) and found some exit polls for you. https://www.realclearpolitics.com/2020/11/09/defund_the_police_backfired_on_democrats_528914.html
I beg to differ. I think this was a law and order election.
According to early exit polls, here were the reasons that voters voted for Trump and presumably other Republicans: The economy (82%), crime and safety (71%), health care policy (36%), the coronavirus pandemic (14%) and racial inequality (8%).....
Maybe the slogan “defund the police” backfired.
Democrats might reply: But Biden and Harris rejected the phrase “defund the police.” Indeed, they did. And Donald Trump has repeatedly denounced and rejected white supremacy and white nationalism. Nevertheless, the mainstream media and Democratic propagandists (but I repeat myself again) have told us for four years that by denouncing white supremacy in public, Trump is secretly approving of white supremacy, dog-whistle-style.
Turnabout is fair play. Having tried to persuade voters that all Republicans are closet Nazis whose public statements cannot be taken at face value, Democratic spinmeisters in the media cannot be surprised if it turns out that some swing voters have concluded that apparently mainstream Democrats are closet antifa sympathizers. Possibly many swing voters thought that actions—or, in the case of the summer riots, inaction—spoke louder than words about the Democratic Party’s attitude to law enforcement, particularly when many Democratic urban governments from Minneapolis to Austin proceeded relentlessly to cut police budgets in the name of racial justice, even as the violence was going on.
When you put together two facts—the fact that the Republican Party as a whole picked up voters, and the fact that 71% of voters for the Republican presidential candidate said they were motivated by “crime and safety”—it all adds up. The voter backlash following the urban riots of 1967 helped to produce the Nixon victory of 1968. And the voter backlash following the urban riots of 2020 helped to produce the Republican electoral wave in November 2020.
LetMyPeopleVote
(145,168 posts)It has been clear to me that you have never worked in a campaign and have no idea as to how campaigns work in the real world. Your emphasis on exit polls has been a source of amusement to me in that this is a great example as to how little you understand how the real world operated. Thank you for the laughs
I finally decided to humor you (after all you have provide me with some good laughs) and found some exit polls for you. https://www.realclearpolitics.com/2020/11/09/defund_the_police_backfired_on_democrats_528914.html
I beg to differ. I think this was a law and order election.
According to early exit polls, here were the reasons that voters voted for Trump and presumably other Republicans: The economy (82%), crime and safety (71%), health care policy (36%), the coronavirus pandemic (14%) and racial inequality (8%).....
Maybe the slogan “defund the police” backfired.
Democrats might reply: But Biden and Harris rejected the phrase “defund the police.” Indeed, they did. And Donald Trump has repeatedly denounced and rejected white supremacy and white nationalism. Nevertheless, the mainstream media and Democratic propagandists (but I repeat myself again) have told us for four years that by denouncing white supremacy in public, Trump is secretly approving of white supremacy, dog-whistle-style.
Turnabout is fair play. Having tried to persuade voters that all Republicans are closet Nazis whose public statements cannot be taken at face value, Democratic spinmeisters in the media cannot be surprised if it turns out that some swing voters have concluded that apparently mainstream Democrats are closet antifa sympathizers. Possibly many swing voters thought that actions—or, in the case of the summer riots, inaction—spoke louder than words about the Democratic Party’s attitude to law enforcement, particularly when many Democratic urban governments from Minneapolis to Austin proceeded relentlessly to cut police budgets in the name of racial justice, even as the violence was going on.
When you put together two facts—the fact that the Republican Party as a whole picked up voters, and the fact that 71% of voters for the Republican presidential candidate said they were motivated by “crime and safety”—it all adds up. The voter backlash following the urban riots of 1967 helped to produce the Nixon victory of 1968. And the voter backlash following the urban riots of 2020 helped to produce the Republican electoral wave in November 2020.
Treefrog
(4,170 posts)uponit7771
(90,335 posts)LetMyPeopleVote
(145,168 posts)uponit7771
(90,335 posts)LetMyPeopleVote
(145,168 posts)Have you ever actually worked on a campaign in the real world? I have in a red state. Texas Democrats went from having 49 state house seats (out a total of 150 seats) after 2010 elections to only needing 9 additional seats to get control of the Texas House. Control of the Texas House would cut off the voter suppression law being considered and give the Texas Democratic party a vote in redistricting. I had two friends run for Texas state house seats and the GOP ran ads that used "defund the police" and socialism to great effect. One of the assholes who beat a friend is a child abuser and slum lord who fled to Orlando during the freeze. This asshole ran ads using socialism and defund the police and defeated a friend
I support police reform but I also live and work in the real world. Right now, we are organizing to fight the upcoming voter suppression laws by among other things forming a statewide organization of Democratic Lawyers. Things would have been a great deal easier if we had won these state house seats. Now, we are gearing up to defend my local district attorney who is up for re-election (I was part of the group that helped get Soros to help elect this man). My friend who is up for re-election in 2022 is going to be attacked because he in effect decriminalized pot in our county by refusing to test small amounts of pot to prove that this is not hemp. The local repugs are going to be attacking him as being soft on crime and it will take some work to defend this seat.
I live in the real world in a red state and I have seen exactly what happens with idiots use stupid slogans like "defund the police" in the real world. The claim that my friends who ran in 2020 and lost due to Defund the Police GOP ads is really offensive to me and totally wrong. These candidates did not deserve to lose and did not run bad campaigns. I will be happy to tell my friends who lost that they deserved to lose because posters from deep blue states believe that they ran bad campaigns.
Again, I live in the real world. Your claims that candidates who lost due to Defund the Police are bad democrats and bad candidates is simply wrong and offensive
LetMyPeopleVote
(145,168 posts)It has been clear to me that you have never worked in a campaign and have no idea as to how campaigns work in the real world. Your emphasis on exit polls has been a source of amusement to me in that this is a great example as to how little you understand how the real world operated. Thank you for the laughs
I finally decided to humor you (after all you have provide me with some good laughs) and found some exit polls for you. https://www.realclearpolitics.com/2020/11/09/defund_the_police_backfired_on_democrats_528914.html
I beg to differ. I think this was a law and order election.
According to early exit polls, here were the reasons that voters voted for Trump and presumably other Republicans: The economy (82%), crime and safety (71%), health care policy (36%), the coronavirus pandemic (14%) and racial inequality (8%).....
Maybe the slogan “defund the police” backfired.
Democrats might reply: But Biden and Harris rejected the phrase “defund the police.” Indeed, they did. And Donald Trump has repeatedly denounced and rejected white supremacy and white nationalism. Nevertheless, the mainstream media and Democratic propagandists (but I repeat myself again) have told us for four years that by denouncing white supremacy in public, Trump is secretly approving of white supremacy, dog-whistle-style.
Turnabout is fair play. Having tried to persuade voters that all Republicans are closet Nazis whose public statements cannot be taken at face value, Democratic spinmeisters in the media cannot be surprised if it turns out that some swing voters have concluded that apparently mainstream Democrats are closet antifa sympathizers. Possibly many swing voters thought that actions—or, in the case of the summer riots, inaction—spoke louder than words about the Democratic Party’s attitude to law enforcement, particularly when many Democratic urban governments from Minneapolis to Austin proceeded relentlessly to cut police budgets in the name of racial justice, even as the violence was going on.
When you put together two facts—the fact that the Republican Party as a whole picked up voters, and the fact that 71% of voters for the Republican presidential candidate said they were motivated by “crime and safety”—it all adds up. The voter backlash following the urban riots of 1967 helped to produce the Nixon victory of 1968. And the voter backlash following the urban riots of 2020 helped to produce the Republican electoral wave in November 2020.
Cha
(297,184 posts)LetMyPeopleVote
(145,168 posts)This article explains why Democrats did poorly in the 2020 elections.
Link to tweet
Here’s what Rep. Harley Rouda (D-Calif.), who lost, told The Washington Post: “Many [voters], I believe, bought into the message that Democrats are marching in that direction [of socialism], and that was a false narrative. I would tell you, the Democratic Party, in my opinion, is more moderate than it has ever been. We did not combat that message as effectively as we should have.”
“My opponent only talked about three words: Defund the police,” Democrat Cameron Webb said on a private call this week, Politico reported. He lost what Democrats hoped was a winnable race in Virginia.
“I’m not sure that as a party we took that attack head on, and provided our counter narrative,” Rep. Stephanie Murphy (D-Fla.) told Politico of “socialist” attacks resonating with Hispanic voters in Florida, costing Democrats two House seats. “It’s not enough to say what you’re not, you have to define what you are. And we have to define it in a way that doesn’t scare the American people.”
“[T]he [liberal] rhetoric and the policies and all that stuff — it has gone way too far,” Rep. Conor Lamb (D-Pa.) told the New York Times. “It needs to be dialed back. It needs to be rooted in common sense, in reality, and yes, politics. Because we need districts like mine to stay in the majority and get something done for the people that we care about the most.”
Cha
(297,184 posts)hard to understand?!
Cha
(297,184 posts)LetMyPeopleVote
(145,168 posts)uponit7771
(90,335 posts)LetMyPeopleVote
(145,168 posts)caber09
(666 posts)Enough with this bs it cost us huge stop living in denial
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)caber09
(666 posts)She flew around and/or campaigned for others around the country and she lost almost everywhere including in surrounding districts from her home district in liberal nyc...defund cost us no matter all the proof and numbers you ignore. There is a reason why the leading nyc mayoral candidates are against defund the police and I'm thankful they are against it..I'd like to actually win and keep republicans out of power instead of helping them hang on. This was a huge chance to build our numbers instead it cost us hugely and now we have minimal majorities..thanks for helping to hurt our side, brilliant! I'll take biden Obama spamberger clyburn words over yours and the defund/abolish people
caber09
(666 posts)And we as a party got dragged down by it, meanwhile in nyc your no one is running on it is also proven wrong...
"In the wake of the Floyd case and other recent police killings, several candidates on the left, including Ms. Wiley and Mr. Stringer, (and Dianne morales) have adopted the goals of the “defund the police” movement and want to significantly cut the police budget and divert resources into social services."
Thankfully none of those three have a shot in the primary as things stand today.
CrackityJones75
(2,403 posts)
Loki Liesmith
(4,602 posts)electric_blue68
(14,888 posts)will add details later. Waaaay too tired right now.
Loki Liesmith
(4,602 posts)electric_blue68
(14,888 posts)asking for full equality?
DiamondShark
(787 posts)StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Well, I guess you think there's such thing as being "too woke" if you're white and think civil rights and social justice are hobbies that are nice to do untill you get bored or they start to get in the way of the things that really matter to you.
But no. There's no such thing as being "too woke."
Loki Liesmith
(4,602 posts)StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... the word you CAN NOT be "too woke"
BannonsLiver
(16,370 posts)
FBaggins
(26,731 posts)You’re just using the word differently.
The ironic thing is that you can’t prove him wrong without proving him right.
"Woke is a problem" is right wing lingo. Right wing. If you don't get that, you haven't read the history of the word.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)It's also common among some white progressives who think civil rights and social justice are only worth working for as long as it's convenient and comfortable for them (and as long as they get the merit points they think they deserve for participation) but can be jettisoned the minute they think it "gets in the way" and that they should be the ones to decide when that should be determined.
ancianita
(36,048 posts)When it comes to political rhetoric, Carville and progressive hobbyists have got to rethink their "perfect as the enemy of the good" pop-up outbursts.
Democrats do dignity, get shit done and make good trouble. We're a big tent, but we don't have to go along with sloppy talk that helps bad faith opponents.
Biden would never fall for these internally divisive right wing talking points.
oldsoftie
(12,533 posts)Speaking out about voting laws & such all While continuing to do business with, and stifle dissent against, CHINA.
They're playing "woke"
Oh, MLB pulled the all star game from GA! Yay! But they still partner with China; who is doing far worse things on a huge scale.
LeBron James tweeting about voting rights & police abuse, but staying totally silent on MASSIVE Chinese human rights abuses. Because the NBA likely told him to keep his mouth shut. Like that Houston coach; look what happened to him when he gave just a little support to Hong Kong.
"Woke" hypocrisy.
ancianita
(36,048 posts)Woke Biden can take American foreign policy from there.
oldsoftie
(12,533 posts)People are happy to see the All Star game pulled from GA but say nothing about all the travel to China by the NBA. And Disney doing the same thing. We rightfully bitch about trump & his spawn doing big business with the Saudis & China (Ivanka), this is no different.
MONEY.
A lot of celebrity & corporate "wokeness" is simply for image and convenience. Gotta try to keep that "cool" factor going. At some point the average voter sees it for what it is too
But hey, its the cool term now; kinda like "clap back" and "engaged" was so hip a few yrs ago.
ancianita
(36,048 posts)Last edited Wed Apr 28, 2021, 02:04 PM - Edit history (1)
prove that there is "woke hypocrisy." In terms of the GA pullouts, we can take it in the corporate sense that voter suppression is bad for business. We can talk about profit driven corporate inconsistencies without misusing the word's meaning.
When
It's not just a word of image or convenience. I can't agree that it's just another "cool" word. That's how Republicans have tried to latch onto and twist the word to use it as dog whistle. When I say Carville's wrong to say that "everybody knows it," I'm correcting his "cool" ignorance and his version of "everybody," because it's a mentality that's wider and deeper than that.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)uponit7771
(90,335 posts)Last edited Wed Apr 28, 2021, 08:54 AM - Edit history (1)
Using the word the way the racist use it of course you can be "too woke"
and
Letting republicans frame the debate the way the racist do is stupid on its face, if democrats had a get behind attack strategy from messaging Carville would be too busy to worry about semantics
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)It needs to be said. And the reaction to it is further proof of its importance - unfortunately, the people who need to hear it most will be the ones to resist mist strongly.
I have a lot of respect for Carville and what he's done for the party, but his efficacy diminished a long time ago and his political chops haven't been too sharp for awhile. I remember this guy as he watched the returns come on election night 2018 shaking his head and saying that Democrats had overpromised and raised expectations too high because there was clearly no "Blue Wave" and the Democrats would be lucky not to lose seats in the House.
So, while I think he may have some interesting insight generally, I don't see him as any great seer.
ancianita
(36,048 posts)We are completely in accord about the judgments of old schoolers like Carville.
Loki Liesmith
(4,602 posts)StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Usually you jump into these threads with this complaint much faster. Slept in this morning?
If all goes according to the normal plan, your wingmen should be here any minute.
ancianita
(36,048 posts)
sorry I just spit up my coffee 
Loki Liesmith
(4,602 posts)Baitball Blogger
(46,703 posts)Still trying to appease the white conservative. We need to move forward and empower minorities. It's the only way to find fairness in this country.
ancianita
(36,048 posts)What you post is exactly the woke mentality the Democratic Party talks about.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)zaj
(3,433 posts)The reporter first reframed his remarks as a "problem with 'wokemess'". Carville agreed and went in to describe a whole bunch of problems that have nothing to do with "wokeness".
Here's a few examples:
"We have to talk about race. We should talk about racial injustice. What I’m saying is, we need to do it without using jargon-y language that’s unrecognizable to most people — including most Black people, by the way — because it signals that you’re trying to talk around them. This “too cool for school” shit doesn’t work, and we have to stop it."
And
"Take someone like Democratic Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. She’s obviously very bright. She knows how to draw a headline. In my opinion, some of her political aspirations are impractical and probably not going to happen. But that’s probably the worst thing that you can say about her.
Now take someone like Marjorie Taylor Greene, the new Republican congresswoman from Georgia. She’s absolutely loonier than a tune. We all know it. And yet, for some reason, the Democrats pay a bigger political price for AOC than Republicans pay for Greene. That’s the problem in a nutshell. And it’s ridiculous because AOC and Greene are not comparable in any way."
And
"And maybe tweeting that we should abolish the police isn’t the smartest thing to do because almost fucking no one wants to do that."
And
"People always say to me, “Why don’t Democrats just lie like Republicans?” Because if they did, our voters wouldn’t stand for it. But I’m not saying we need to lie like they do. I’m saying, why not go after Gaetz and Jordan and link them to Hastert and the Republican Party over and over and over again? We have to take these small opportunities to define ourselves and the other side every damn time. And we don’t do it. We just don’t do it."
RussBLib
(9,006 posts)In my opinion, ANYTHING can be overdone, including "wokeness".
But the rest of the article is key.
Dems shod be tying the GOP to the Jan 6 insurrection EVERY day. We should be tying Gaetz, Jordan, and Dennis Hastert together.
We don't need to lie. Just get aggressive with these dirtbags.
BeyondGeography
(39,370 posts)How we miss the mark and what we need to do to up our messaging. And they’re spot-on. “Communities of color” (activist-speak) as opposed to “neighborhoods,” eg. People aren’t seeing the forest for the trees. Surprise, surprise.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Surprise, surprise, indeed.
BeyondGeography
(39,370 posts)Barack Obama basically said the same damn thing. Hello?
Meantime, let’s completely ignore what’s actually original and politically useful in the article instead of yet another road-to-nowhere conversation.
For instance:
So when Jim Jordan was pulling all these stunts with Anthony Fauci [Fauci was speaking at a congressional hearing about ending coronavirus precautions], why didn’t someone jump in and say, “Let me tell you something, Jim, if Fauci knew what you knew, if he knew that a doctor was molesting young people, he would’ve gone to the medical board yesterday. So you can go ahead and shut the fuck up.”
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)For someone so concerned about language, Carville needs to be more careful about his if he doesn't want people to think he's saying what actually came out of his mouth.
ancianita
(36,048 posts)that political opponents will use. Since they're non-thinkers they'll use what he provides them that can get hyped in right wing media to cast doubt on this party.
He needn't amplify a false equivalency re "both sides" messaging problems.
We don't have messaging "problems" except for his careless blurts.
The "woke is a problem" part.
BeyondGeography
(39,370 posts)Take what he has to offer and move on. Sheesh.
ancianita
(36,048 posts)Itty bitty? Okay. I'm not blowing this into national public debate. It's good to think about this chipping away at Black rhetoric, and if his itty bitty words are misused as hype by media or opponents to club Democrats with, we can answer.
I'll take what constructive advice he and you give, thanks.
brooklynite
(94,517 posts)...and Republicans used it against vulnerable Democratic incumbents.
Back in 2018, I had a private one-on-one dinner with Ben-Ray Lujan who at the time was the Chair of DCCC. He said his goal was to win the House by at least a 10 seat margin, in order to have a cushion for possible losses in 2020. That cushion is now largely gone (we lose 5 more seats, we lose the House), we're vulnerable to redistricting, and Republicans have made it clear they're going to run on cultural issues.
(nb - "Latinx" is also too woke. Most hispanic voters don't relate to the term, and a growing share of them voted Republican in 2020.
ancianita
(36,048 posts)That's exactly why we have to stop this anti-woke stupidity about the meaning of woke.
We have known from the beginning what "defund" means. We failed to nip that stupidity in the bud back then. So we weren't perfect in messaging. That doesn't make the word "too woke." As it now stands, the more that police murders say about the funding of qualified immunity abuse, the more vindicated by facts and truth defund is.
The politics you describe are anti-woke. The realities we face mean that we don't need to muddy our understanding of who we are with right wing lingo.
I refuse to play the politics of what Democrats are called. I only play the politics of of what Democrats answer to.
No Democrats should line up with Carville criticisms of the party. He hasn't served us well in twenty years and certainly didn't serve us well in the Obama years.
https://newrepublic.com/article/156523/obsolete-politics-james-carville
brooklynite
(94,517 posts)"we know what it means" is a pointless comment. The question is, what do voters who aren't part of the Democratic base think it means? And they tend to default to what the WORDS actually mean.
DEFUND (transitive verb): "Prevent from continuing to receive funds." (Oxford English Dictionary)
ancianita
(36,048 posts)I've never classified language by how others decide to misuse it. I'm about flogging opponents with their letter-of-the-law definitions and will not be told that my spirit of the law thinking falls into Webster boxes. Just moral boxes. I know what a democratic socialist, marxist, progressive liberal is, because I use their language in various contexts. I can be called any of those labels and defend their moral politics.
Language, like civilization, advances and changes. Especially English. Our political language should change, and be about not giving our political opponents an agreed upon definitional club to beat us with.
Schools have been defunded. Has anyone fought against that defunding but teachers? No. Both still exist.
We can beat them at their lingo game because we decide what words matter.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)That is not the same thing as being "Woke," which is an attitude, a state of mind, a way of seeing and understanding the world and the people in it.
Insisting that "defund the police" is the equivalent of being "woke" is like saying that the term "it's the economy stupid" is the equivalent of being progressive.
empedocles
(15,751 posts)there for target practice by Dems
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)If you have a problem with a slogan, fine. But using that as an excuse to tell people they're "too woke" is actually a form of gaslighting.
empedocles
(15,751 posts)be costly in November Elections. Suspect that is Carville's prime concern.
"Woke' is already fox's biggest ridicule target. Out the food chain to Sen. scott'.
There is a cost.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Black and Brown people do not need to have our language policed.
FYI, Fox will ridicule, demean, attempt to diminish ANYTHING that has ANYTHING to do with Black and Brown people and our allies advocating for our rights. The word used to describe it is not the problem. And the fact that we're expected us to speak in ways that aren't "costly" to elections (and to be "careful" with our words) - while everyone else, including Carville, feels perfectly entitled to say whatever they damned well please whenever they choose to and then whine about being "clobbered" and "cancelled" when anyone objects - is one of the reasons we have to keep speaking up.
Maybe it's Carville who needs to be more "careful" with his words.
empedocles
(15,751 posts)for a black advocacy organization.
LBJ had all sorts of problems with various left groups; needs, rights, . . . [as well as the legions on the right].
History is on LBJ's side.
Tradeoffs are common, and sometimes worthwhile.
JanMichael
(24,885 posts)brooklynite
(94,517 posts)Not the social benefits arguments that some people try to define it as.
JanMichael
(24,885 posts)I thought it was ironic at best, maybe funny, or possibly an intentional slight.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/misspelling
janterry
(4,429 posts)It's wrong to try to make them change their language (imo). I'm not latino or hispanic. It's not my place.
eta: agree with the rest of what you wrote, as well.
ancianita
(36,048 posts)We don't have to agree. Latinos can correct the country's use of the word, and they wouldn't be rightly criticized as "politically correct" for doing so. But our own party language should not be exploited as GOTV talking points by right wing bad faith opponents.
janterry
(4,429 posts)if you do a simple search - like I did, I found multiple polls.
Better to look at aggregate data (more scientific) than msnbc guests.
ancianita
(36,048 posts)janterry
(4,429 posts)shoot ALL the polls say the same thing
Geez. I gotta run.
ancianita
(36,048 posts)When you make a claim the burden of proof is on you.
Why not at least try to help the thread along a little.
n/t
oldsoftie
(12,533 posts)Depending on who is asking
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latinx
https://thinknowtweets.medium.com/progressive-latino-pollster-trust-me-latinos-do-not-identify-with-latinx-63229adebcea
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/08/17/latinx-not-preferred-term-among-hispanics-survey-says/
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Over-90-of-Hispanics-and-Latinos-don-t-like-to-15899232.php
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... once republicans say "democrats hate meat" and they 04JohnKerry that too.
Melee mouth lose, lack of conviction isn't attractive to humans
AZProgressive
(29,322 posts)For others it is a much more up close and personal issue also one of the leaders of the movement was helping prisoners deal with the Coronavirus so I trust her. I don't trust that many people in politics.
I have seen your Twitter profile because you occasionally post Tweets from your account here and I have seen a lot of Hispanics refer to themselves as Latinx so how are you going to tell them what to call themselves?
Kyrsten Sinema Began as an Activist, But Now Arizona Latinos Say Mark Kelly is the One Who Listens
In 2006, just two years after leaving the Green Party to join the Democratic Party, when she considered herself "the most liberal legislator in the state of Arizona" and proudly boasted that she was a "former socialist," Kyrsten Sinema showed up to a march against former Sheriff Joe Arpaio at 6 a.m.
(Snip)
Latino activists in the state now say that portrait of Sinema just serves to make her about face with advocates and the immigrant community even more confounding. In fact, when comparing Arizona's two influential moderate Democratic senators, Mark Kelly and Sinema, they say only one gives Hispanic community members the time of day, and it's not Sinema.
"Sinema is in the camp of she doesn't really feel she needs Latinos to win her elections," said LUCHA Arizona co-executive director Alejandra Gomez, whose group is part of the One Arizona table that was launched in response to SB 1070 and has registered 550,000 voters over the last decade.
(Snip)
“As she has risen in leadership, her relationship with Latinx and immigrant communities has changed over the last ten years plus,” Contreras said. “What is holding her back? What is that tension? What is the fear in sitting down with Arizonans?”
https://www.newsweek.com/kyrsten-sinema-began-activist-now-arizona-latinos-say-mark-kelly-one-who-listens-1587191
I live in Arizona and I have heard a lot worse words from right wing Republicans that I won't repeat. At least with Latinx your post won't get deleted.
It is kind of silly to make a big deal out of the word when we just had Trump and Tucker Carlson broadcasting White Nationalist talking points every night but let's keep focusing on the left.
As far as DTP you're wasting your time on DU. You need to go to Twitter and tell the organizers to stop saying that but good luck with that.
It is interesting the OP points out the right wing uses as a dog whistle and you continue to use it. I also cringe every time a white person tries to fake AAVE.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)Jon King
(1,910 posts)Fighting climate change means Dems want to ban hamburgers. Respecting trans kids means your daughters will be forced to compete with sports teams loaded with boys who are pretending to be girls. Defund the police to shift monies to community resource officers instead of weapons means abolish the police. Teaching race respect in schools means progressives are teaching white kids to hate themselves.
Repugs are relentless in their messaging. They will use these twisting of the messages and lies to win enough swing voters to win the House and perhaps the Senate.
If that is what Carville meant to convey....that Repugs will twist the Dems woke message like they did defund the police, then he is correct. And of course re-districting will only make things worse with trying to keep the House.
ancianita
(36,048 posts)He can flog them with their own twisted lingo and do us much more good. He can start with "fear talk" and how relentlessly lying fear talk is anti-Christian, as in "It's about the ten commandments, stupid."
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)FalloutShelter
(11,859 posts)The problem lies with white liberal Democrats who cannot overcome their "Intellectual bias'
against the use of African American Vernacular to encapsulate the energy of the justice movement.
It is not the concept of "Wokeness" they have an issue with; it is the actual term. They would prefer, perhaps, Awakened.
IN this, they express the last vestiges of deeply buried racism and bias within themselves and the Democratic party.
Carville is a prime example of this. Time to drag that shit out into the sunlight and let it die. Stop hiding behind white intellectualism and admit to the kernel of racism that still exists within the party. I remember the uproar over "Ebonics" in the eighties. Same shit, different year. Cultural bias is cultural bias, period.
Let's stop dividing and start uniting.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)LetMyPeopleVote
(145,168 posts)uponit7771
(90,335 posts)Allowing the Republicans to frame dtp as a candidates messages is bad campaigning !!!
I don't know why we're going back and forth on this, I feel in another context you'd agree with exactly what I'm saying
LetMyPeopleVote
(145,168 posts)Have you ever actually worked on a real campaign? I have in a red state. Texas Democrats went from having 49 state house seats (out a total of 150 seats) after 2010 elections to only needing 9 additional seats to get control of the Texas House. Control of the Texas House would cut off the voter suppression law being considered and give the Texas Democratic party a vote in redistricting. I had two friends run for Texas state house seats and the GOP ran ads that used "defund the police" and socialism to great effect. One of the assholes who beat a friend is a child abuser and slum lord who fled to Orlando during the freeze. This asshole ran ads using socialism and defund the police and defeated a friend
I support police reform but I also live and work in the real world. Right now, we are organizing to fight the upcoming voter suppression laws by among other things forming a statewide organization of Democratic Lawyers. Things would have been a great deal easier if we had won these state house seats. Now, we are gearing up to defend my local district attorney who is up for re-election (I was part of the group that helped get Soros to help elect this man). My friend who is up for re-election in 2022 is going to be attacked because he in effect decriminalized pot in our county by refusing to test small amounts of pot to prove that this is not hemp. The local repugs are going to be attacking him as being soft on crime and it will take some work to defend this seat.
I live in the real world in a red state and I have seen exactly what happens with idiots use stupid slogans like "defund the police" in the real world. The claim that my friends who ran in 2020 and lost due to Defund the Police GOP ads is really offensive to me and totally wrong. These candidates did not deserve to lose and did not run bad campaigns. I will be happy to tell my friends who lost that they deserved to lose because posters from deep blue states believe that they ran bad campaigns.
Again, I live in the real world. Your claims that candidates who lost due to Defund the Police are bad democrats and bad candidates is simply wrong and offensive
George II
(67,782 posts)George II
(67,782 posts)....opponents AND slogans from their own party members doesn't constitute "bad campaigning".
"Defund the police" was the message of not few, but too many, and some with relatively large following.
LetMyPeopleVote
(145,168 posts)I am truly offended by posters who attack good democrats for losing due to these GOP ads. Again, in the real world, the GOP will take quotes from prominent progressives who are in safe blue districts in blue states and use these statements to attack good democrats running in competitive districts. I have seen these ads used to good effect against friends. Invariably the Democratic candidate has less funding compared to the GOP candidate and these ads are very effective in the real world.
The concept that a poster from a very blue state or district is comfortable telling me that only bad candidates lose to these ads is truly offensive and wrong. It is clear that such posters have never worked on a campaign in the real world and their statements are so poorly informed that they are offensive.
We lost a number of races in 2020 that we should had won but for dumb slogans such as defund the police. Carville is correct in his analysis and if we do not listen to him, we will lose the House and Senate in 2022.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... running on, that is TEXT BOOK 04JohnKerry !!
What are people not understanding if you're not primarily attacking with stream and a theme of messaging your losing and the opponent can come in with silliness such as something you don't even agree on.
"democrats hate red meat" will be the kGQP's next message against us and democrats will run around like chickens with our heads cut off
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)brooklynite
(94,517 posts)James Carville is a Democrat and political strategist. He's brought on to discuss political strategy and what he thinks Democrats need to do to win. Another voice criticizing Republicans isn't going to change anything.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)"woke culture" in language that is clearly insulting to large swaths of Democrats.
Funny how Black and Brown people and our allies are supposed to be so careful about what we say and how we say it because Republicans will supposedly use it against us - but people like Carville can say whatever they want however they want and they're just speaking honest truths that need to be said and the fact that Republicans are picking up on it and using it to justify their own racism isn't even a consideration.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)peggysue2
(10,828 posts)Carville may be blunt but Jamie Harrison has also spoken to the need to improve our messaging and branding.
We cannot assume all Americans know who and what the Democratic Party stands for. That's a genuine problem when you want, when you absolutely must win elections to move the country forward. It matters little how morally right the words Woke or Defund the Police or any other slogan may be if it loses buckets of votes. This is about political effectiveness, messages that work and counter Republican propaganda.
The Biden Administration has a very progressive agenda which will shrivel and die without an expansion of our majority in the House and Senate. That's the reality of 2022 and 2024. Winning is what matters to get the results we want. Though it may be distasteful, the Dems need to be as pointed, ruthless and effective as the Republicans are with their messaging. That means words that work politically with the electorate, attract, inspire, turn the opposition upside down.
Republicans have honed their messaging skills to a pointed spear. We need to stop acting like we don't know this already.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)Jon King
(1,910 posts)Carville is 100% correct.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Interviewer: Why not?
Carville: Because they’ll get clobbered or canceled. And look, part of the problem is that lots of Democrats will say that we have to listen to everybody and we have to include every perspective, or that we don’t have to run a ruthless messaging campaign. Well, you kinda do. It really matters.
I always tell people that we’ve got to stop speaking Hebrew and start speaking Yiddish. We have to speak the way regular people speak, the way voters speak. It ain’t complicated. That’s how you connect and persuade. And we have to stop allowing ourselves to be defined from the outside.
He's blaming "wokeness" for the Democrats' messaging problem. That's crap. Messaging is completely separate from "wokeness" but Carville is using the latter term as a pejorative and targeting it as the cause of a problem it has nothing to do with.
Claiming that Democrats who speak truth will "get clobbered" by "woke" people is swimming in the same stream with those people who consistently whine that they can't say whatever they want to say, regardless how offensive, because of political correctness or cancel culture - he actually used the word "cancelled."
And that's really a coded way of telling Black and Brown people to be quiet because if we talk too loud and too much and keep engaging in "identity politics," we might drive away the skittish, easily offended and usually confused working class white people that Carville and his ilk believe are indispensable to the political success of our party, against all evidence to the contrary
ancianita
(36,048 posts)It's fine for Democrats to examine context.
This thread doesn't intend to reflect the whole interview.
This thread is for answering out of context misuses of his "woke is a problem" blurt.
Happy Hoosier
(7,295 posts)It’s hard to be too aware of social injustice.
There can be a problem when “wokeness” transforms into self-righteousness.
I’ve seen a little of that. I won’t pick scabs, but there are a number of bad ideas and policies advanced under the banner of being “woke” that are political poison.
ancianita
(36,048 posts)Except that, imo, his saying that is a problem.
I’ve seen a little of that. I won’t pick scabs, but there are a number of bad ideas and policies advanced under the banner of being “woke” that are political poison.
I won't disagree, but just say that the little I see of self righteousness is in not-woke privilegesplaining. I'll try to think of another example, though Carville's is the latest, imo.
I'd like you to bring up bad policies, or even just one, under the banner of "woke," (we've already brought up "defund the police" ) because we as Democrats should be ready to answer to them. We can admit mistakes, learn from them and change our actions thereby, right?
Happy Hoosier
(7,295 posts)I am a white upper-middle-class straight cis male. Other than the fact that I am fat and an atheist, I am about as privileged as they come in this country and I try to be aware of that.
Carville, likewise, is ultra-privileged.
He is ALSO an astute political strategist. The trouble comes when his confidence as a strategist intersects with his privilege and he shouts people down more than he should. The confidence that such ultra-privilege instills exacerbates the issue.
But it doesn't mean he's completely wrong. And we saw some of that in the last election cycle. "Woke" or not, some policy issue issues have to be handled with a political sensibility. Self-righteous defeats are still defeats.
ancianita
(36,048 posts)And no one said here that he's completely wrong.
Much as I agree with his attempts to be a help to the party, this thread is about how "Wokeness is a problem and everyone knows it...." That part is the part he got completely wrong because he doesn't know what he's talking about, he doesn't know that he doesn't know.
Or may be he does. The fact that it's already hit Twitter has started some right wing for-profit shit stirring. Could he have prevented that?
As for the rest -- about his being an astute strategist -- it's not necessarily the rest they care about, is it.
Happy Hoosier
(7,295 posts)We must never forget that black people, and black women in particular were heroes this last election.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)PunkinPi
(4,875 posts)LetMyPeopleVote
(145,168 posts)ancianita
(36,048 posts)Did this source convince you? https://twitter.com/DiazHub?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1387283907012345860%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Findex.php
"Could cost the Democrats in future elections" is fear talk that gaslights Black voters, whether he intended it or not.
"Could cost the Democrats in future elections" can be said about anything Rethugs or profiteers can latch onto when they've got nothing but fear and stealing our words. He needn't give them something for Rethug racists and to run with, Twitter or otherwise.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)White liberals have been telling Black folks to "tone it down" until the time is right for decades.
Dr. King addressed it beautifully in Letter from a Birmingham Jail. People should read it before deciding that James Carville is bringing all kinds of new wisdom to this discussion.
ancianita
(36,048 posts)Black folk were woke since the nation's founding and before.
Another of my favorite woke writers who shows up.
lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)Shut up until you're woke.
Polybius
(15,390 posts)However, you can definitely be too much into cancel culture.
Caliman73
(11,736 posts)What are we talking about when we say "cancel culture"?
Before there can be a discussion about too much or too little, there has to be an agreement on what it even is, and from what I have seen, what some people call "canceling" and what the right calls "cancel culture" are very different things.
So, again. Please tell us what cancel culture is.
Polybius
(15,390 posts)Some I agree with, and some I may not. I won't say which ones, as I don't want an argument. Anyway, here's a few:
1: Wanting to edit out Trump out of Home Alone.
2: Editing out offensive verses of old books, mostly in online reading such as Kindle.
3: Removing the Native American from Land Of Lakes, the Aunt Jemima name and picture, Uncle Ben's, and Eskimo Pies.
4: Changing the name of the Washington Redskins and Cleveland Indians.
5: Not showing certain episodes of an old TV serious because it's offensive, or editing parts out.
6: Changing names of offensive school names.
7: Removing statues of Washington and Jefferson because they had slaves.
8. Telling us not to use the "ok" sign or fly the Betsy Ross flag because White Nationalists got into it over the past few years.
9: Firing those who are out of the mainstream politically.
10: No longer printing certain Dr. Seuss books.
Like I said, some of these I agree with. I'm not saying they all are bad. However, some I'm vehemently against changing.
JonAndKatePlusABird
(312 posts)Caliman73
(11,736 posts)As you said, some of the things on the list are acceptable to you, but you would still define them as "cancel culture". Why? People have always engaged in boycotts, public campaigns, social shaming, and activism to change the way things are done.
The Civil Rights movement was a massive effort to cancel Jim Crow laws and systemic racism that prevented Black people and other groups from fully participating in citizenship.
The problem with using terms like "cancel culture" is that the right is trying to define it as something negative but only as it applies to calling out their racism, misogyny, and overall being assholes. In a move of splendid hypocrisy (or just normal functioning for right wingers) they went into CPAC decrying "cancel culture" from the left and promptly cancelled one of their own speakers that they had presumably spoken with, booked, and were expecting as a prominent voice at the conference. They cancelled the speaker after they were told that the speaker had a documented history of denying the Holocaust and even denying the existence of Jews as a people and culture. I would argue that it was correct not to give someone like that a platform to speak at an event that gets national attention, but the point is that right wingers cancelled this person and thought nothing of it, but when interested people create a movement to change offensive logos or names of sports teams, THAT is the epitome of cancel culture.
Cancel culture is difficult to define as some of the practices are subjective. There are some videos on YouTube that make good efforts to define Canceling and juxtapose it to what the right is trying to do by labeling things "cancel culture". You may want to check out Tom Nicholas and Natalie Wynn (known as Contra Points. Here is a link to a story and interview Ezra Klein did with Wynn and another person about the topic. Hopefully it isn't behind a paywall.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/27/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-cancel-culture.html?showTranscript=1
BannonsLiver
(16,370 posts)Anything and everything that impedes that process is an unnecessary distraction.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)But that's a common argument made for why Black and Brown people need to shut up.
Shhhh! Don't rock the boat. We need to win first.
We win.
Then ...
Shhh! Don't rock the boat. We need to win again ...
Caliman73
(11,736 posts)I mean we win right?
If we stuff ballot boxes like they say we do. If we call Republican voters and give them false information. If we pass laws that disadvantage Republican voters. If we Gerrymander the shit out of districts to give us the advantage.
All of that is cool because winning is all that matters?
BannonsLiver
(16,370 posts)Hope that clears it up for you.
LexVegas
(6,060 posts)uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... like semantics that don't affect the real problem at hand.
LetMyPeopleVote
(145,168 posts)The real world is a nice place to learn what works and what does not. You are wrong in your claims as to how to deal with these ads in the real world and your attacks on real democrats who lost races due to these attacks are offensive to me. I know candidates who had these ads used against them and these democrats are good people. Your attacks and claims that these Democrats are really bad candidates who did not fight strong enough is sad and wrong.
Again, go work on campaigns in the real world and you will find how sad and wrong your attacks on good Democrats who lost races due to these attacks are. My friends were brave enough to run real campaigns in a red state and your claim that they are bad democrats/candidates is offensive
Caliman73
(11,736 posts)They agree in principle with the idea that Black and Brown people are disadvantaged in society, but they get scared that too much will be given to those people and they will be somehow disadvantaged.
Look, I am Mexican-American. I grew up between working and middle class neighborhoods. I knew all the gangsters in the neighborhood I grew up in. I have specific prejudices against my own people, Black people, and other groups; that I actively fight against internally so as not to allow those prejudices affect how I approach people different than me. I had the opportunity to get a University education and learn about different ways of seeing people, and seeing the problems in society. Some people do not have that same experience.
While Defund the police is a bad slogan because it implies elimination of all police services, the reality is that the policies proposed are about gradually reducing the need for more police by addressing the factors that contribute to crime, namely poverty, homelessness, disconnection from community, substance abuse problems, mental health problems, joblessness, and the despair that comes from these and other problems. If you can take the billions upon billions in funding that is given to police over other human services, then it will very likely lead to steep declines in the need for police. There will always be a need for police because regardless of the improvements in society, there will be people who steal and who hurt others, but if you actually put in the money that is needed to address the factors that facilitate crime, you will see a major reduction in problems. The problem is that what I said, does not fit on a bumper sticker.
We have been conditioned by society in general, but more aggressively by right wing framing, to think that the plight and needs of people of color are separate and opposed to the needs of society in general. We are told to see these things as special requests that do not align with what is needed in society. We are a color blind society and all of this "woke" stuff just divides us. The reality is that if you see things from a perspective of power, then you have a majority group with most of the power in society, that is afraid that if minority groups are given equal power, that the power and norms of the majority will be diminished. A small part of that is true. If I have to think about what is offensive to Asian people, who are a much tinier portion of the population than Hispanics, then I can't just go about my day not caring about what I might say that would be offensive. I have to think and go out of my way to consider someone else's experience. That can be work. If I have to consider the basic inequality that women suffer, as a man that makes me have to check myself to see if my actions contribute to that, then I might have to do some work to change my behavior, and that could suck because I am working on other things, but you know what? Ultimately it makes the world better for women and Asian people AND it makes the world better for me because I am no longer anchored to attitudes and behaviors that were oppressing me too.
Conservatives want to hang on to power. They want to restore a hierarchical system like during the monarchy. That is their philosophy in a nutshell. They will do anything to keep that or get there again. Separating us by our own prejudices is part of the playbook and Carville helps them by treating "wokeness" as if is needs to be divisive. Everyone needs to wake up and realize that we are actually fighting against very wealthy, White men who do not give a shit about anyone but themselves, and there are so many more of us than them if we understand that.
LetMyPeopleVote
(145,168 posts)We need to listen to Carville and not let dumb slogans be used.
Link to tweet
The GOP is already running or preparing to run ads that will be very effective in the real world. https://thepoliticalinsider.com/gop-launches-ads-highlighting-defund-the-police-to-target-vulnerable-2022-dems/
The ads will run in five Democrat-held districts the GOP hopes to flip in 2022 on their way to a House majority.
The ad highlights left-wing calls to defund the nation’s police departments, and highlights ‘Squad’ member Rep. Rashida Tlaib‘s demand to abolish prisons.
From Yahoo News, NRCC Spokesman Michael McAdams said of the ad push,
“We are going to ensure every voter knows Democrats want to Defund the Police. Whether it’s Rashida Tlaib demanding an end to policing and incarceration, or Maxine Waters encouraging rioters to engage in violence, Democrats can’t be trusted to stand with law enforcement and keep Americans safe.”
Caliman73
(11,736 posts)I have seen this post over and over again in response to specific questions posed to you.
I have stipulated in the past and will continue to say that Defund the police was a bad slogan. SO, yes we can move past that argument.
We need effective ways to combat the right wing lies about what Democratic politicians stand for. We need to keep doing the work of the actual people, which means having to legislate alone, against Republican obstruction.
When people start seeing their lives improve because of Democratic policies, they will stand with Democrats.
If we run scared from our principles, we will lose regardless.
What is your proposal to actually do better in 2022?
LetMyPeopleVote
(145,168 posts)I am busy in the real world gearing up to deal with GOP voter suppression however a start may be to listen to what Carville was saying https://politicalwire.com/2021/04/28/democrats-need-to-talk-differently-about-race/
You ever get the sense that people in faculty lounges in fancy colleges use a different language than ordinary people? They come up with a word like “Latinx” that no one else uses. Or they use a phrase like “communities of color.” I don’t know anyone who speaks like that. I don’t know anyone who lives in a “community of color.” I know lots of white and Black and brown people and they all live in … neighborhoods.
There’s nothing inherently wrong with these phrases. But this is not how people talk. This is not how voters talk. And doing it anyway is a signal that you’re talking one language and the people you want to vote for you are speaking another language. This stuff is harmless in one sense, but in another sense it’s not.
We have to talk about race. We should talk about racial injustice. What I’m saying is, we need to do it without using jargon-y language that’s unrecognizable to most people — including most Black people, by the way — because it signals that you’re trying to talk around them. This “too cool for school” shit doesn’t work, and we have to stop it.
Caliman73
(11,736 posts)He doesn't hear people talking like that, well maybe he should step out of his massive bubble and go into places where people do talk like that.
When he says "most people", he likely means White people.
I hear it all the time. Guess where I live? A community that is heavily non-White.
LetMyPeopleVote
(145,168 posts)Carville makes a number of points. I guess that you also object to the concept of Democrats holding the GOP accountable. Gym Jordan and his ilk should be held accountable for Dennis Hastert and I agree with Carville that Maxine Waters should had called Gym Jordan out about this and the Ohio State sex abuse
Link to tweet
I am glad that Carville is making these points and I suspect that people running campaigns will be paying more attention to Carville that to your views. Joe did not lay back when attacked on Defund the Police and was happy to point out that he was not a member of the group pushing these proposals.
BTW, I live in a blue county in a very red state where we have flipped control of the county government. My precinct constable and county judge (the CEO of Texas county govt) are both Muslims and the district attorney and county sheriff are both African Americans. I was part of a group who helped the DA get Soros involved to help him flip the county and as a result we have some bail reform and some minor decriminalization of pot (hemp is legal in Texas due to the GOP and my friend and other Texas DAs take the position that it is too expensive to test small amounts of pot).
We are headed to fun re-election fight for the DA and a fight on the GOP voter suppression efforts. You are welcomed to use your tactics and others will use tactics that work. We know that the local republicans will be using defund the police, socialism and soft on crime in 2022.
Caliman73
(11,736 posts)I have never run for office, so I have not won anything. I worked on 2 campaigns, in minor roles but our candidate won both times.
SO, getting back on track. No one that I am aware of, is objection to Carville's entire message. What people are objecting to here, in this thread and conversation, is Carville's take on "woke" and discussion of race.
Definitely, Democrats need to hit back hard against Republican lies. As I said either down thread or another one. We need to stand behind people like Val Demmings and Mondaire Jones who are calling people out in Congress. We need to push and back Democratic efforts on filibuster reform and push through bills that benefit everyone. We need to back people like Stacey Abrams who are going into states and laying down the ground game.
None of that is what people are calling out Carville for. If he had just stayed in his lane and talked about what you put out in this deflected response, there would have been no problem. Instead he had to go an talk about "woke".
Good luck in the races you are working on.
LetMyPeopleVote
(145,168 posts)Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)or say. Please don't read more into this. I absolutely hate that you and others are so upset. I wish the rest of his interview was read. He is looking at the entire party. ALL of us. And ALL that we believe in.
maxsolomon
(33,327 posts)I tried to make some of these points on a FB group but I can't put it this clearly.
Woke isn't just slogans.
ancianita
(36,048 posts)we gotta work at this together. It can't help but improve our messaging.
Wikipedia's even got a link on it if you'd like to post it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke
Thanks for your post.
ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)Being used by some dudebro douchebag youtubers as a perjorative.
When i see it in a negative context coming from someone on "our side" it casts THEM in a negative light for me.
And "defund the police" is bad messaging for what people are actually trying to accomplish but the right wing is ALWAYS going to try to turn every Democrat in the country into Ilhan Omar or Alexandria Occasio Cortez.
ancianita
(36,048 posts)how unconscious and desperate dudebro douchebags are to sound like cool racists. They move from 'lock her up' to 'all lives matter' to pejoratives, afraid of their 'replacement.' They care fuck all about democracy, just hangin' with power.
Marcuse
(7,479 posts)
ancianita
(36,048 posts)uponit7771
(90,335 posts)LetMyPeopleVote
(145,168 posts)uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... tell us to stop using terms we've been using for 100 years cause they're not aware of what they mean.
On this very subject Carville can't be more wrong and overtly privilleged.
LetMyPeopleVote
(145,168 posts)In the real world it is clear that the moronic slogan cost us seats in the the House. It is sad that you are defending this slogan when it is clear that you are totally wrong in your claims.
Your insults to real democrats who lost races due to this slogan are offensive and you should apologize for these sad and offensive comments. Real Democrats lost races that we should have won due to the GOP being able to weaponize comments from prominent democrats and used these comments in very effective ads.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... you multiple times to show me some polls were DTP affected the down ballot votes like people I respect said they did and you keep sniping with "you're wrong" and no polls.
Come on, this is looking ... bad
LetMyPeopleVote
(145,168 posts)Again, your false claims that any real Democrat who lost their race due to the moronic "defund the police" slogan are really bad democrats and deserved to lose. Such a claim is both ignorant and offensive. I had two friends who ran in state house races in my county who lost after the GOP ran another of ads using socialism and defund the police. These ads quoted or featured members of the squad (who are not popular outside their deep blue districts) and were effective. Both of my friends are actual members of the Democratic party and ran campaigns that should have won but the negative ads used.
These ads were effective. For example these attacks were used in the Maine Senate race which Susan Collins won
Link to tweet
This line of attack was used in South Carolina against Jaime Harrison
Link to tweet
President Obama is clear that this line of attack cost Democrats down ballot races
Link to tweet
In an interview with Peter Hamby, who hosts the Snapchat political show “Good Luck America,” Obama said “you [lose] a big audience the minute” a slogan like “defund the police” is used, making “it a lot less likely that you’re actually going to get the changes you want done.”
“Defund the police” refers to the reallocation or redirection of government funding from police departments to social services for minority communities. As Rashawn Ray of the Brookings Institution noted, defunding does not mean the abolishment of police departments but instead “highlights fiscal responsibility” and “advocates for a market-driven approach to taxpayer money.”....
Obama ― echoing other centrist Democrats who’ve similarly taken issue with “defund the police” and what they’ve decried as radical messaging ― told Hamby that Democrats could benefit from adopting softer rhetoric when talking about police reform.
“If you instead say, ‘Hey, you know what? Let’s reform the police department so that everybody’s being treated fairly. And not just in policing, but in sentencing, how can we divert young people from getting into crime?’” he said.
Joe Biden is clear on this also That is how the real worls works Here is a good explanation https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/huge-catastrophe-democrats-grapple-congressional-state-election-losses-n1248529
In leaked recording, Biden says GOP used 'defund the police' to 'beat the living hell' out of Democrats
Republicans barraged swing districts with ads linking moderates to the most far-left voices in the party, which has led to bitter recriminations between the factions.
"When you're Joe Biden and you have 47 years in public life and you have a billion dollars behind you, you can build your own brand," said Matt Bennett, executive vice president of the centrist think tank Third Way. "But when you're down-ballot, it's hard to outrun that brand in red and purple districts."
I saw this in two down ballot races in my county where the GOP ran a ton of defund the police and soclialsim ads
I have forwarded you polling that showed that the defund the police was toxic and the fact that you are unable to understand such polling is another source of amusement to me. The fact that you do not understand the polling does not mean that it does exist. Clearly the GOP understood this polling and used such polling to win some races
Again, I trust the polling posted and I trust Presidents Obama and Biden on this issue. Your claims are false and offensive
LetMyPeopleVote
(145,168 posts)It has been clear to me that you have never worked in a campaign and have no idea as to how campaigns work in the real world. Your emphasis on exit polls has been a source of amusement to me in that this is a great example as to how little you understand how the real world operated. Thank you for the laughs
I finally decided to humor you (after all you have provide me with some good laughs) and found some exit polls for you. https://www.realclearpolitics.com/2020/11/09/defund_the_police_backfired_on_democrats_528914.html
I beg to differ. I think this was a law and order election.
According to early exit polls, here were the reasons that voters voted for Trump and presumably other Republicans: The economy (82%), crime and safety (71%), health care policy (36%), the coronavirus pandemic (14%) and racial inequality (8%).....
Maybe the slogan “defund the police” backfired.
Democrats might reply: But Biden and Harris rejected the phrase “defund the police.” Indeed, they did. And Donald Trump has repeatedly denounced and rejected white supremacy and white nationalism. Nevertheless, the mainstream media and Democratic propagandists (but I repeat myself again) have told us for four years that by denouncing white supremacy in public, Trump is secretly approving of white supremacy, dog-whistle-style.
Turnabout is fair play. Having tried to persuade voters that all Republicans are closet Nazis whose public statements cannot be taken at face value, Democratic spinmeisters in the media cannot be surprised if it turns out that some swing voters have concluded that apparently mainstream Democrats are closet antifa sympathizers. Possibly many swing voters thought that actions—or, in the case of the summer riots, inaction—spoke louder than words about the Democratic Party’s attitude to law enforcement, particularly when many Democratic urban governments from Minneapolis to Austin proceeded relentlessly to cut police budgets in the name of racial justice, even as the violence was going on.
When you put together two facts—the fact that the Republican Party as a whole picked up voters, and the fact that 71% of voters for the Republican presidential candidate said they were motivated by “crime and safety”—it all adds up. The voter backlash following the urban riots of 1967 helped to produce the Nixon victory of 1968. And the voter backlash following the urban riots of 2020 helped to produce the Republican electoral wave in November 2020.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)LetMyPeopleVote
(145,168 posts)Your claims about polling are false and the your offensive attacks on true democrats who lost races that they should have won in 2020 due to this offensive slogan are disgusting and false. Your claim that any Democratic candidate who lost in 2020 due to the disgusting "defund the police" slogan is both wrong and offensive. I know a couple of good democrats who had ads using this slogan and socialism used against them in 2020. These ads were effective in that that these ads featured prominent progressive members stating that we need to defund the police and end incarceration.
It was fun proving your false claims wrong. Both President Obama and President Biden agreed with my analysis and disagreed with your false statements. I noticed that you have dropped your offensive attacks when exposed to the truth from real democrats such as President Obama and President Biden
Running for office is a very hard job. The people who run for office have to devote their time and reputation to take this step. I had a good friend who was former party chair and I watched the time and effort he had to take to recruit candidates to run. I admire persons who have the courage to run for office in a red state and I am offended when supposed democrats attacked these candidates and call them bad democrats for losing. I guess that we need to warn potential candidates that if they run and lose due to offensive GOP ads that use slogans favored by the progressive wing of the party, these potential candidates need to expect to be attacked as being bad democrats and bad candidates. It is already hard enough to recruit good candidates but lets add one more barrier
You really need to apologize for your offensive and wrong claims. Candidates who lost in 2020 due to GOP ads using slogans like defund the police are not bad Democrats or bad candidates. Calling good Democratic candidates names because these candidates lost is not a good look
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... going to change your mind so why not leave it alone.
I respect Obama etc but I don't think they're correct without seeing the exit data etc that dtp was a top gating factor in voting against democrats
and
If it was then its still bad campaigning to ALLOW a slogan to be ascribed to a candidate that never ran on it.
OK question for you
If some people at a protest and a couple of democrats said they don't like beef then do you think that will be a campaign loser democrats in 22? jj
Cause that's what basically happened with dtp
Thx in advance
LetMyPeopleVote
(145,168 posts)Why are you attacking good democratic candidates who had the courage to run for office? Such attacks are truly sad and disgusting.
LetMyPeopleVote
(145,168 posts)Last edited Sat May 1, 2021, 01:23 PM - Edit history (1)
I saw that the GOP plans to use this same ignorant slogan again in 2022
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... a slogan no one's going to run on
Democrats can't fix a problem they won't recognize is there
LetMyPeopleVote
(145,168 posts)It has been clear to me that you have never worked in a campaign and have no idea as to how campaigns work in the real world. Your emphasis on exit polls has been a source of amusement to me in that this is a great example as to how little you understand how the real world operated. Thank you for the laughs
I finally decided to humor you (after all you have provide me with some good laughs) and found some exit polls for you. https://www.realclearpolitics.com/2020/11/09/defund_the_police_backfired_on_democrats_528914.html
I beg to differ. I think this was a law and order election.
According to early exit polls, here were the reasons that voters voted for Trump and presumably other Republicans: The economy (82%), crime and safety (71%), health care policy (36%), the coronavirus pandemic (14%) and racial inequality (8%).....
Maybe the slogan “defund the police” backfired.
Democrats might reply: But Biden and Harris rejected the phrase “defund the police.” Indeed, they did. And Donald Trump has repeatedly denounced and rejected white supremacy and white nationalism. Nevertheless, the mainstream media and Democratic propagandists (but I repeat myself again) have told us for four years that by denouncing white supremacy in public, Trump is secretly approving of white supremacy, dog-whistle-style.
Turnabout is fair play. Having tried to persuade voters that all Republicans are closet Nazis whose public statements cannot be taken at face value, Democratic spinmeisters in the media cannot be surprised if it turns out that some swing voters have concluded that apparently mainstream Democrats are closet antifa sympathizers. Possibly many swing voters thought that actions—or, in the case of the summer riots, inaction—spoke louder than words about the Democratic Party’s attitude to law enforcement, particularly when many Democratic urban governments from Minneapolis to Austin proceeded relentlessly to cut police budgets in the name of racial justice, even as the violence was going on.
When you put together two facts—the fact that the Republican Party as a whole picked up voters, and the fact that 71% of voters for the Republican presidential candidate said they were motivated by “crime and safety”—it all adds up. The voter backlash following the urban riots of 1967 helped to produce the Nixon victory of 1968. And the voter backlash following the urban riots of 2020 helped to produce the Republican electoral wave in November 2020.
USALiberal
(10,877 posts)Response to ancianita (Original post)
Post removed
Sympthsical
(9,073 posts)But it's like Catholicism. I don't talk people out of what they weren't talked into.
The current dogmatism of wokeness has no logical underpinning. There's no arguing against it. I might as well debate the sunrise.
And it's going about as well as all that.
ancianita
(36,048 posts)Dogma like Catholicism's is a trained belief system used to train thought and behavior. Dogma began with, and exist in, the context of storied belief systems with 'holy books' than in any other context.
Consciousness (woke) is awareness of realities that one is exposed to -- such that even degreed professionals, trained in social sciences like politics, philosophy, basic school subjects, even STEM studies -- don't necessarily acquire consciousness along with high level logic, concepts, skills and even the building of new knowledge. Temporarily, 'woke' is waking up to new learning about history, human equality and rights, policies and practices that deviate from or ignore those.
So you're onto something when you say that arguing against woke is like debating the sunrise. Which makes it all the more apparent that in Carville's political understanding, for him to say "It's a problem and everybody knows it" says more about him, his knowledge of what "everybody knows" than about his understanding of anything 'woke'. Undoubtedly, 'woke' is a problem for power politics, but not necessarily for moral or democratic politics.
An old saying is that all truths begin as heresy. It's not a problem for 'woke' people to see others mock misuse or make claims about words they don't understand. "Woke" is one of them. Woke people know that one can't prescribe, or otherwise force awareness; they can only describe woke language and actions and try to live consciously for themselves, trying to map and adapt to nature, and do the greatest good for the greatest number. I can give examples, but probably so can you.