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Sat May 1, 2021, 09:55 PM

So when do we cut out the anti vaccine idiots and start living our regular lives?

I have a science education and have always looked to data to drive my decisions. Which is why until the the wife and I were fully vaccinated we were super careful.

The numbers are starting to stack up. 100 million Americans vaccinated. Less than 10,000 Covid cases among them. Less than 150 deaths. Admittedly there are probably more who have it with no symptoms because vaccinated people are not really tested.

But if you are vaccinated and still afraid of going into public, you really should not drive on our roads. Because your chance of getting into a wreck or dying is way greater than you even getting Covid, much less dying from it. Way more likely.

Unless a new variant proves resistant to the vaccines, which obviously none currently are since we have them all in the US, once all Americans who want the vaccine have it I am done with masks and distancing. Until then I will continue to mask up and be separated. Which is really Kabuli theater since my risk is almost nonexistent. But Iíll be a team player.

The reason I made this post is political. If our Democratic leaders try to keep restrictions past the point where everyone, mainstream liberals, independents and covid conserved conservatives realize they are just being risk adverse it will damage us in future elections.

We all know conservatives, older, white evangelicals will never get the vaccine. And will keep dying from the virus. Fuck if I care.

I want to stress Iím still masking up, still distancing. But once no one is showing up to get the jab, Iím done.

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Reply So when do we cut out the anti vaccine idiots and start living our regular lives? (Original post)
GulfCoast66 May 2021 OP
LymphocyteLover May 2021 #1
marybourg May 2021 #2
GulfCoast66 May 2021 #10
Mister Ed May 2021 #29
RobinA May 2021 #86
brush May 2021 #3
GaYellowDawg May 2021 #41
CentralMass May 2021 #4
GulfCoast66 May 2021 #15
CentralMass May 2021 #20
GaYellowDawg May 2021 #42
CentralMass May 2021 #46
GulfCoast66 May 2021 #69
CentralMass May 2021 #71
GulfCoast66 May 2021 #73
beaglelover May 2021 #91
muriel_volestrangler May 2021 #74
GulfCoast66 May 2021 #75
Crunchy Frog May 2021 #25
GulfCoast66 May 2021 #27
Treefrog May 2021 #30
GaYellowDawg May 2021 #40
womanofthehills May 2021 #60
GaYellowDawg May 2021 #81
RobinA May 2021 #88
Laura PourMeADrink May 2021 #5
tritsofme May 2021 #6
womanofthehills May 2021 #11
GaYellowDawg May 2021 #37
Laura PourMeADrink May 2021 #47
womanofthehills May 2021 #50
GaYellowDawg May 2021 #82
womanofthehills May 2021 #87
GaYellowDawg May 2021 #93
womanofthehills May 2021 #63
GulfCoast66 May 2021 #8
TraceNC May 2021 #16
GulfCoast66 May 2021 #17
TraceNC May 2021 #18
GaYellowDawg May 2021 #28
TraceNC May 2021 #44
GaYellowDawg May 2021 #83
Treefrog May 2021 #31
womanofthehills May 2021 #19
TraceNC May 2021 #21
GaYellowDawg May 2021 #32
womanofthehills May 2021 #52
GaYellowDawg May 2021 #80
GaYellowDawg May 2021 #38
dem4decades May 2021 #7
GulfCoast66 May 2021 #9
dem4decades May 2021 #12
womanofthehills May 2021 #22
GaYellowDawg May 2021 #33
former9thward May 2021 #24
GaYellowDawg May 2021 #39
womanofthehills May 2021 #64
dem4decades May 2021 #72
Stallion May 2021 #13
womanofthehills May 2021 #23
GaYellowDawg May 2021 #34
Treefrog May 2021 #35
Silent3 May 2021 #14
GaYellowDawg May 2021 #36
Beachnutt May 2021 #26
leftyladyfrommo May 2021 #43
scarytomcat May 2021 #45
marie999 May 2021 #48
apnu May 2021 #49
Ace Rothstein May 2021 #55
GulfCoast66 May 2021 #65
Calculating May 2021 #66
Elessar Zappa May 2021 #51
bluestarone May 2021 #53
GulfCoast66 May 2021 #76
Ace Rothstein May 2021 #54
Treefrog May 2021 #56
HipChick May 2021 #58
Treefrog May 2021 #59
HipChick May 2021 #61
Treefrog May 2021 #62
GulfCoast66 May 2021 #68
Chakaconcarne May 2021 #92
llmart May 2021 #57
Iggo May 2021 #67
Buckeye_Democrat May 2021 #70
djm5971 May 2021 #77
Buckeye_Democrat May 2021 #78
djm5971 May 2021 #79
RobinA May 2021 #90
Wingus Dingus May 2021 #85
Wingus Dingus May 2021 #84
beaglelover May 2021 #89

Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sat May 1, 2021, 10:04 PM

1. I hear you. I think most vaccinated people are very eager to go out and be normal again

I think we're getting there. The administration is being overly cautious perhaps but we still have too much COVID circulating and would like to drive it down before completely getting rid of masks. The big wild card is the variants and hopefully they won't cause a new spike that would delay us going back to normal.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sat May 1, 2021, 10:05 PM

2. Anyone more careful than me is too timid.

Anyone less careful than me is too careless.

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Response to marybourg (Reply #2)

Sat May 1, 2021, 10:52 PM

10. WTF does that even mean. From a scientific standpoint.

Last edited Sat May 1, 2021, 11:27 PM - Edit history (1)

I used CDC numbers in my post. If you are vaccinated and still afraid to go out, you should not drive a vehicle. Because your chance of dying is far greater.

One of the reasons I made this post is there are so many fully vaccinated people on DU still living in fear. And after the last year who can blame them? I sure as hell was. The wife and I have been super careful. It was traumatic to all of us.

But if a person is fully vaccinated, they have a greater chance of dying in a car wreck then of Covid.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #10)

Sun May 2, 2021, 01:37 AM

29. I got that "living in fear" crap now and then this past year.

There were people I knew or encountered who preferred to think of their carelessness and selfishness as "courage", and my own caution and consideration for others as "fear".

It's odd, really, because I personally have felt more relaxed and at-ease this past year than I have in a long time. I haven't "lived in fear" of the virus. I've simply taken steps to avoid it.

I don't live in fear of dying in a car wreck either. When I drive, though, I try to remember to drive with caution and consideration for others. That reduces my chance of dying in a wreck, or - far worse to me - of killing or maiming another person.

After my second shot has taken full effect later this month, I will continue to try to operate with caution, and with consideration for others.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #10)

Mon May 3, 2021, 01:21 PM

86. I Know Several People

that fall into this category. I think in some ways the isolating has gotten to be a habit. I'm essential and have worked every day of COVID in a community living environment. I've been lightly exposed to people with COVID, but haven't gotten sick because I am reasonably careful. I'm very glad that I worked throughout, because I'm not, nor have I ever been, afraid to go out. Plus, I think that, maybe through necessity, maybe not, there has been a bit of fearmongering. They never report that incidence is significantly down in the US since January. There seems almost to be a rule against saying anything good about COVID. Even when vaccinations started there was nothing good to say, just warnings about how you could still get sick, you could still spread it, we were going to need boosters, another surge was a week away. It seemed like they were almost sabotaging the vaccine, which I think for a significant number of people they managed to do.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sat May 1, 2021, 10:06 PM

3. I feel you. I'm fully vaxxed and still mask and SD in crowds. The co-vidiot...

non-maskers are going to create hot spot around the nation unfortunately. It'll get to the point, I hope, that we all just get a booster every year like with the flu and who cares if the magats keep getting it and dying because they're a large percentage of the population.

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Response to brush (Reply #3)

Sun May 2, 2021, 02:14 AM

41. Boosters will probably not be a necessity.

The vaccines confer a high degree of protection against all known variants and are likely to continue doing so.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sat May 1, 2021, 10:08 PM

4. I hit two weeks after my 2nd tomorrow and have no plans to engage in any indoor public activities

like dining in a restaurant or going to the movies any time soon. I'll also drive on our roads as much as I damn well please.

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Response to CentralMass (Reply #4)

Sat May 1, 2021, 11:05 PM

15. I just don't understand? Why not engage?

I, like you have been through a traumatic time. But you are fully vaccinated. You really have nothing to fear, based on the science. And this is a science and fact based site.

Data shows that once vaccinated you are more likely to die driving to a dinner at a restaurant then from Covid once you get there.

I still mask up and distance because not all Americans who want the jab have had it. But you are not at any risk. Youíre vaccinated.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #15)

Sat May 1, 2021, 11:37 PM

20. Unless you are an immunologist or have some other particular qualifications

that make you an expert beyond your vaccination it doesn't give you the privilege of brow beating people for making their own choices. You cite data on having nothing to worry about if you are vaccinated but there is not any conclusive data yet. This is a fluid situation and the virus keeps mutating.
I have no need to prove a point or end up being another body taking up medical resources. I'm active. I spend a lot of times outdoors walking/jogging, etc. I still carry a mask and wear it when I encounter people on trails etc.
https://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/2021/apr/08/new-worry-doctors-getting-reinfected-even-after-taking-two-shots-of-covid-19-vaccine-2287291.html

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Response to CentralMass (Reply #20)

Sun May 2, 2021, 02:28 AM

42. There's missing information in your link.

First, which vaccine was taken? Not all vaccines are as efficacious as the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines.

Second, what's the timing on the illness? A full primary immune response does not run its course for up to two weeks after the second shot. It's possible to catch the virus in between the actual stick and the full development of the immune response. How many of those doctors who contracted the disease stayed home from work until two weeks after their second dose? Most likely, none of them did, and were in the worst possible environment before the vaccine had had time to take full effect.

Third, what's the rate of hospitalization and deaths among those doctors? If the vaccine reduces COVID-19 to a mild illness in all variants - and it has done so in every single variant - then you won't be another body taking up medical resources.

I'm not going to browbeat you, but once you're two weeks past your second shot, you're at a very low risk for getting even a mild case from any variant out there. You're more likely to win the lottery than to get hospitalized from COVID-19 after a complete vaccination series. If that's not acceptable risk for you, then that's your decision.

If you're looking for qualifications, I have a B.S. and M.S. in biology, with 2 additional years of Genetics coursework at the PhD level that were required for my PhD in science education. I've taken molecular biology, molecular genetics, biochemistry, cytology, virology, immunology, epidemiology, and biostatistics courses at the graduate level. I've also taught human anatomy and physiology at the collegiate level for 10 years, which includes an examination of the immune system at the same level of rigor as any other system. I've also read a lot of primary literature and discussed my interpretations of those papers with infectious disease experts so that I can be sure I'm giving my classes accurate information. So I'm not someone whom Dr. Fauci would consider an expert, but I am far better informed than most people.

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Response to GaYellowDawg (Reply #42)

Sun May 2, 2021, 06:26 AM

46. I can appreciate your qualification but not your attitude

It appears that there have been a small numbers of break through cases, about 9,245 , across 46 states.The article from the CDC suggest that the number of such cases is likely under reported.
While that number is small relative to the number of people vaccinated it is, not unexpectedly, possible to get infected after receiving the vaccination. With the possibility of getting ill or being aspyptomatic and able to spread it in any event.

We have 23 high risk counties here in Oregon with 11 qualifying to be at extreme risk. However, because the statewide hospitalization criteria for extreme risk have not been met, the counties will remain at high risk.

I think it would be foolish to try engage in normal public activity and will be for weeks or months to come.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/health-departments/breakthrough-cases.html

CDC received reports of vaccine breakthrough infections from 46 U.S. states and territories.

Total number of vaccine breakthrough infections reported to CDC
Total number of vaccine breakthrough infections reported to CDC 9,245
Females 5,827 (63%)
People aged ≥60 years 4,245 (45%)
Asymptomatic infections 2,525 (27%)
Hospitalizations* 835 (9%)
DeathsÜ 132 (1%)
*241 (29%) of the 835 hospitalizations were reported as asymptomatic or not related to COVID-19.
Ü20 (15%) of the 132 fatal cases were reported as asymptomatic or not related to COVID-19

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Response to CentralMass (Reply #46)

Sun May 2, 2021, 02:03 PM

69. You are supporting my general point.

I really donít care if someone continues to live like we are forever. None of my business. But is does bother me that there are people who donít understand statistics and get their news from Mr. Google.

So they see almost 10K people have been vaccinated and the caught Covid after vaccination. And 800 or so were hospitalized and 150 or so died. And they get frightened. But if they understood that risk level compared to things they do everyday they would not worry at all. Driving, eating raw oysters or sushi, skiing, skating, hiking, running. All those are more of a risk to a person than getting the virus after the vaccine.

It is my opinion that some on DU have started considering any conversation supporting finally ending this pandemic and the resulting sacrifices as something only republicans do. And that we will for some reason have to live like we are now forever. I consider that as delusional as people who deny we had reason to take the actions we rightly are taking.



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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #69)

Sun May 2, 2021, 03:55 PM

71. I have no great desire to try out the efficacy of my Pfizer vaccine in the name of science or for

some political agenda. I have no great urge to rush out to a restaurant (I do order takeout) or to sit in a movie theater etc. These things are largely still shutdown and or greatly limited in my state anyway. I plan to let this play out longer and I doubt that I will ever return to my prepandemic normal. I live alone, my family is 3k miles away and I don't want to end up being on the losing side of the statistic for this virus or the next one that will inevitably come down the pike.

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Response to CentralMass (Reply #71)

Sun May 2, 2021, 04:14 PM

73. That's cool. But I am ready for the shutdown and mask mandates to be over.

Not yet, certainly while we still have people wanting the vaccine. But by July everyone who wants it will have it. Absence new developments like a strain that the vaccine does not work against it will be time to open up.

The 20-25% of luddites among us will continue to die.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #73)

Mon May 3, 2021, 03:25 PM

91. I'm with you. Hopefully by July, the mask mandate indoors will be history.

I no longer where one outside unless around a bunch of people. But on my walks, if I encounter one or two other people, I just give them some distance and keep on walking. No mask anymore. I'm over it.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #69)

Sun May 2, 2021, 04:44 PM

74. If you're going to claim to be taking a scientific stand, you need to stop the hyperbole

"All those are more of a risk to a person than getting the virus after the vaccine.". Clearly not, because people are at more risk from covid after the vaccine that they are from running. Many millions run, very few die from it.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #74)

Sun May 2, 2021, 06:46 PM

75. I was talking about injuries and deaths. Of the under 10,000 who got it

150 or so have died.

And people do die running. Cardiac arrest happens. Getting hit by cars more often. Too lazy to look up the numbers. Regardless my point remains. Your chance of getting the vaccines then getting Covid, much less dying from it is tiny. As is the danger running. Driving is more dangerous than either.

But my point was meant to be political. I truly donít care what individuals do. I expect to see people with masks the rest of my life and will now wear one myself when I have a cold. Out or respect for others.

But if Democratic Office holders try to keep restrictions on place after every willing person is vaccinated it will harm us politically. That is my only point.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #15)

Sun May 2, 2021, 12:32 AM

25. Why so judgemental? If it's not harming you then

what do you care if someone else's comfort level is different from yours.

Are you planning to become like the Magats and start harassing people for wearing masks in public?

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Response to Crunchy Frog (Reply #25)

Sun May 2, 2021, 01:06 AM

27. WTF? I'm just trying to bring trust in science.

100 million Americans fully vaccinated. Less than 10 thousand have got Covid. Less than 150 have died! You are at more risk driving to the grocery store than dying from Covid if fully vaccinated.

We have all been through a once every 4 generation trauma. The wife and I for a year have been like monks. Because that is what science suggested we should do. But now we are vaccinated. Faster than I thought possible thanks to Joe. We got our jabs at a FEMA sight his administration set up.

You you what is MAGAT behavior? Denying science. And up til now the data is pretty impressive. You get vaccinated you are not going to get Covid.

If something wants to keep living in a quarantine situation thatís their choice. And I really donít care. Knock yourself out. But science does not back that up.

Why are we all getting vaccinated if nothing changes? And politically it will kill us. Once vaccinated you have nothing to fear.




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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #27)

Sun May 2, 2021, 01:49 AM

30. You do know you can still get the virus, right?

Iíve had the damn thing and no interest in revisiting that experience. I got my second jab today, but my precautions will stay the same.

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Response to Treefrog (Reply #30)

Sun May 2, 2021, 02:12 AM

40. COVID vaccines have a higher degree of protection than most vaccines

And the protection extends to the variants as well. Because of their specificity in targeting the spike protein (see a more detailed explanation lower in the thread), vaccination confers a greater degree of immunity than catching the virus, especially with respect to variants. You were very smart to get the shots even after having had the virus. And if you want to keep your precautions the same, that's certainly your prerogative, but it's very, very likely that they're not necessary.

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Response to GaYellowDawg (Reply #40)

Sun May 2, 2021, 11:00 AM

60. No one can say right now that the protection extends to the variants

As we write, researchers are studying the many mutations in India to see if the triple mutation strain evades vaccines. With so many people Ill there, the mutations and variants are in the thousands.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #60)

Mon May 3, 2021, 12:41 PM

81. That's a flat out lie.

Experts can and have stated that the protection extends to the variants. As we write, the "triple mutation" - which you'd know was a misnomer if you knew how to read the literature - has been characterized as an accumulation of variants that have already taken place in other strains which are protected against by the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #27)

Mon May 3, 2021, 01:32 PM

88. I Asked That Question

after I was vaccinated the second time. Still wearing a mask, can't travel to Europe, a bunch of stuff still not open, people saying that wearing masks may be the new normal. Why did I bother getting vaccinated? OK, I don't have to worry about getting my 91 year old mother sick, she's vaccinated too, so that's something. The day will come (not soon enough) when the masks just go away for a lot of people. Enough of this nonsense.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sat May 1, 2021, 10:11 PM

5. ???? India variant?? Thought first case in TN yesterday?

Thought that strain bypassed immune system? Yes, it will take a while to spread. Feel like deja vu... Early last year when a handful had covid in Washington state?

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Response to Laura PourMeADrink (Reply #5)

Sat May 1, 2021, 10:17 PM

6. Bypassed immune system?

What is that even supposed to mean?

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Response to tritsofme (Reply #6)

Sat May 1, 2021, 10:54 PM

11. It means that it can out smart our natural immunity and vaccines

The current vaccines were made for the original Covid strain - so for the variants the vaccines will be sub optimal until the booster shots are available. The new Indian double and triple mutation strains have two or three mutations on the spike protein which is very worrisome.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #11)

Sun May 2, 2021, 02:04 AM

37. Some misconceptions here.

There is not enough variation in the shape of the spike protein from the new variants to completely escape an immune reaction in vaccinated individuals. Therefore, vaccinated individuals get mild cases at worst. I have written a much more detailed explanation in another reply to you.

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Response to GaYellowDawg (Reply #37)

Sun May 2, 2021, 07:42 AM

47. I would like to read that. Because I think the whole subject

Is very worrisome. Why are there such differing opinions on this subject? The answer one way or another means life or death

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Response to GaYellowDawg (Reply #37)

Sun May 2, 2021, 09:11 AM

50. Lots of scary headlines out there the past few days - I doubt immune escape equals a mild case

from Yahoo! News ( Business Insider)

Business Insider
Researchers are investigating if a COVID-19 with multiple mutations found in India is more deadly and resistant to existing vaccines

The Times of India spoke to Vinod Scaria, a researcher at the CSIR-Institute of Genomics and Integrative Biology in India, who said the triple-mutant was also an "immune escape variant" - a strain that helps the virus attach to human cells and hide from the immune system.

He added that it could have evolved from the double-mutant variant - which experts say is likely behind the recent surge of COVID in the country.

Sreedhar Chinnaswamy, a researcher from the National Institute of Biomedical Genomics in India, told the Times of India that the variant also carried the E484K mutation, a characteristic found in the variants first identified in South Africa and Brazil.

"In other words, you may not be safe from this variant even if you were previously infected by another strain, or even if you have been vaccinated," Chinnaswamy said.
https://news.yahoo.com/covid-triple-mutant-found-india-050506455.html

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #50)

Mon May 3, 2021, 12:53 PM

82. Have you not been listening or reading?

"Immune escape variant" refers to the ability to elude the immune system in non-vaccinated individuals. There is no evidence to demonstrate that there are variants that elude the immune systems in vaccinated individuals to the extent that they cause hospitalization or death. None.

By the way, do you know what "E484K" even means? I do. I suspect you don't. Quit stoking fear.

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Response to GaYellowDawg (Reply #82)

Mon May 3, 2021, 01:25 PM

87. I'm not stoking fear, I'm dealing with reality

Stop talking down to people. Immune escape variant includes escaping vaccines. There are 6000 vaccinated people who recently got Covid - so far we have no info on what variants they were exposed to. From CDC Director: ďSome of these breakthroughs are, of course, failures of an immune response in the host and then some of them, we are worried might be related to a variant that is circulating, so weíre looking at both,Ē Walensky said.

7% of the 6000 vaccinated people were hospitalized and a few died.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #87)

Mon May 3, 2021, 06:11 PM

93. Stoking fear is exactly what you're doing.

That 6000 - actually, 5800 is more accurate - is a scary number until you realize that itís out of SIXTY-SIX FUCKING MILLION. This is why you get talked down to: because you quote mine and donít provide context to push your unproven fears about vaccine efficacy on everyone else.

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Response to GaYellowDawg (Reply #37)

Sun May 2, 2021, 11:06 AM

63. In India, there are actually 7000 variants now

Some of the new Indian major strains have two, three, four, etc mutations- not good. Some strains have the African, Brazilian and UK strain all in one. Pharma would not quickly be making boosters if the current vaccines worked so well against these mega strains.

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Response to Laura PourMeADrink (Reply #5)

Sat May 1, 2021, 10:32 PM

8. Has any vaccinated person got it?

Because not as crazy by half as the anti-vaccers the we will wear masks forever are not far behind. Show me data that there is a strain in Tennessee that the vaccine does not prevent and I will willingly change my opinion.

If the Democratic Party does not use science to make our decisions we as screwed.

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Response to TraceNC (Reply #16)

Sat May 1, 2021, 11:19 PM

17. India is a cluster.

Get back to me when US vaccinated people start dying. I canít base my decisions on one or two news stories. But on the info from the CDC.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #17)

Sat May 1, 2021, 11:30 PM

18. Asked if vaccinated people are getting this strain of Covid.

Gets answer. Doesnít like answer. Dismisses.

Sounds familiar.

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Response to TraceNC (Reply #18)

Sun May 2, 2021, 01:17 AM

28. But that's not the important question.

The important question is, on the rare occasions when vaccinated people actually get infected by one of these variants, has it been demonstrated to cause anything other than a mild case? The answer is no.

You can read this article; it's a good summary, very readable, and cites experts.

https://www.womenshealthmag.com/health/a36232744/what-is-triple-mutant-variant-coronavirus/

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Response to GaYellowDawg (Reply #28)

Sun May 2, 2021, 04:52 AM

44. It wasn't my question, it was the other poster's.

But in any case, 5 of the 37 doctors who tested positive have been hospitalized. I suppose we could squabble over the meaning of ďmild.Ē

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Response to TraceNC (Reply #44)

Mon May 3, 2021, 12:57 PM

83. What we would "squabble" over

Is your assumption that the vaccinations were given time to have their full effect. Full immunity does not develop until 10-14 days after the second shot. There is simply not enough information given to know whether the doctors in question were quarantined until their vaccinations had had time to take effect; therefore, you cannot make the assumption that a variant or variants eluded fully vaccinated individuals and caused a degree of illness severe enough for hospitalization.

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Response to TraceNC (Reply #18)

Sun May 2, 2021, 01:50 AM

31. Well stated.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #8)

Sat May 1, 2021, 11:34 PM

19. The double Indian variant is already in the US

Besides Mississippi and Michigan, 4 cases were just discovered in Houston. This is the double variant but now they are talking about the triple Indian variant and people are still arriving from India for the next few days. In India, they are also seeing variants with more than 4 mutations. These vaccines, unlike the polio vaccine which is made from the whole virus (killed) are very narrow vaccines - made not from the whole virus but a lab copy of one part of the virus -the spike protein. Now the new variants have different spike proteins than the original virus had - so boosters are needed. What is driving me crazy is that all my friends who are vaccinated think they no longer need a mask including a doctor friend.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #19)

Sat May 1, 2021, 11:37 PM

21. I'm seeing the same behavior from friends and family.

Weíre reaching a point where some peopleís desire to get ďback to normalĒ (whatever that means) just canít deal with any information that doesnít fit that plan.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #19)

Sun May 2, 2021, 01:55 AM

32. What you're saying is not quite accurate.

The new variants do NOT have "different spike proteins." They have amino acid substitutions in the spike protein. When mutations occur, they sometimes (not all the time) cause a change in the amino acid sequence during translation from mRNA into proteins. Sometimes, this will change the way that the protein folds, and therefore changes its shape. As the spike protein's shape determines its ability to bind to the ACE-2 receptor, any changes in that shape are much more likely to negatively affect its ability to bind. Therefore, there's a very limited number of mutations/variants of the spike protein that still allow the virus to be infectious.

The "narrowness," as you put it, of the vaccines is actually an extremely strong point in their favor. With an attenuated vaccine, such as the polio vaccine, the immune system won't recognize the entire virus. It will recognize portions of the virus, called epitopes. Each protein that makes up the viral capsule (the exterior) is potentially an epitope. This means that different individuals can develop immune responses to different proteins on different sections of the virus. In a virus with a slow mutation rate, that's not a problem. In a virus, such as influenza or coronavirus, which have higher mutation rates, strains will arise that will have differently shaped proteins in their capsules, which can then escape immune responses to older viral proteins with different shapes.

The COVID vaccines cause a type of immune cell called an antigen-presenting cell to manufacture copies of the spike protein and "show" them to helper T-cells, which begin a primary immune response resulting in a population of T-cells and B-cells specifically geared to react to the spike protein. In natural immunity, or with a vaccine with attenuated SARS-CoV-2, it may or may not be the spike protein that's the trigger for a subsequent immune response. If the immune response was directed against a protein that doesn't particularly need to retain its shape for viral infection and function, the individual in question would be very potentially vulnerable to a second infection. Because, as I mentioned before, the spike protein can't change shape much without losing its function, and because the spike protein is the only means for infection by SARS-CoV-2, a vaccine specific to the spike protein is a much more effective vaccine against COVID-19 than an attenuated virus vaccine would be.

The odds that a change in the protein will occur that both retain the ability to bind to the ACE-2 receptor and make such significant changes to the protein as to escape the secondary immune response in vaccinated individuals are so vanishingly small as to be just about impossible. In fact, there's no evidence to suggest that any known variant can cause anything other than a mild case of COVID-19, and that was entirely predictable.

Quotes about the Indian variants from Amesh Adaljia, assistant professor at Johns Hopkins University's Bloomberg School of Public Health, and Dr. Jeffrey Klausner, MD, clinical professor of preventive medicine at U.S.C.'s Keck School of Medicine:

"What's important to remember is that anytime we see these variants, vaccines still are able to prevent what matters: serious disease hospitalization and death," says Adaljia. "The bottom line is that our vaccines induce not just antibodies but also T cell immunity. They are able to protect against the variants, even if they can get around the vaccine in terms of giving someone a mild infection. The solution to these variants is to vaccinate."

"You're going to keep seeing news about new variants because we are looking for new variants and sequencing new variants," says Dr. Klausner. "Be reassured that the current COVID-19 vaccines, particularly ones developed in the United States, still are highly effective against any variants."

The article with the quotes is here:

https://www.womenshealthmag.com/health/a36232744/what-is-triple-mutant-variant-coronavirus/

Also worth noting is that the CDC has not classified any COVID variant as a variant of high consequence:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/variant-surveillance/variant-info.html

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Response to GaYellowDawg (Reply #32)

Sun May 2, 2021, 09:42 AM

52. SARS-CoV-2 incidence and vaccine escape - The Lancet

What's going on in India is conductive to immune escape - too many cases - too many mutations.



earlier this year described the potential for the evolution of SARS-CoV-2 variants that render vaccines less effective (vaccine escape), assisted by waning immunity following vaccination. This raises a crucial question: how can COVID-19 exit strategies be planned while limiting the vaccine escape risk?
A key component of any plausible strategy towards the permanent removal of non-pharmaceutical interventions (NPIs) is ensuring low case numbers in the short to medium term using NPIs and vaccination. Assuming a fixed vaccine escape mutation probability per infection (p), the risk of a vaccine escape variant arising in a specified time period is 1 Ė 1 Ė p)N, where N represents the number of cases in that period. Crucially, this expression indicates that the vaccine escape risk is sensitive to background incidence; the risk of an escape variant appearing within a fixed time is an increasing function of incidence (figure). Reducing cases is not only beneficial for decreasing the pressure on health-care systems, but also for lowering the vaccine escape risk.


In summary, high SARS-CoV-2 incidence rates act to increase the vaccine escape risk. Maintaining low case numbers using NPIs and vaccines is crucial at this time.





https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00202-4/fulltext

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #52)

Mon May 3, 2021, 12:38 PM

80. Nice link, but

the fixed vaccine escape mutation probability per infection is going to be much lower with this vaccine and this virus because of the specificity of the vaccine to the spike protein and the importance of the spike protein to infectiousness.

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Response to Laura PourMeADrink (Reply #5)

Sun May 2, 2021, 02:07 AM

38. By definition

Any virus that results in illness has bypassed the immune system - and there is not a single variant that has arisen that has the ability to cause more than a mild disease in vaccinated individuals. I have another reply in this thread with more detail.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sat May 1, 2021, 10:28 PM

7. Why don't insurance companies deny Covid coverage for those that refuse a vaccine?

Why should they pay thousands of dollars that could have been avoided by a free shot?

That should make compliance improve.

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Response to dem4decades (Reply #7)

Sat May 1, 2021, 10:38 PM

9. That's probably coming soon.

Red states like mine will have a quandary. Use the power of government? Or let the free market control?

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #9)

Sat May 1, 2021, 10:56 PM

12. As if Florida had that problem with telling companies how to run their business.

They're just hypocrites, they have no real values.

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Response to dem4decades (Reply #7)

Sat May 1, 2021, 11:41 PM

22. Because with all the new variants, vaccine protection will be sub optimal until we have a booster

Sorry - you only had 2 shots - no insurance for you. Lose your house.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #22)

Sun May 2, 2021, 01:58 AM

33. Suboptimal

In this case, doesn't mean that the vaccines are completely ineffective against the variants. It means that they still prevent hospitalizations and death. See my other reply to you for a fuller explanation. So with "only" 2 shots, someone might lose a box of Kleenex, but they're not going to lose their house.

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Response to dem4decades (Reply #7)

Sun May 2, 2021, 12:14 AM

24. Are insurance companies going to deny coverage to people that overeat?

Main cause of heart disease. They could make billions if they could do that.

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Response to dem4decades (Reply #7)

Sun May 2, 2021, 02:08 AM

39. I think that's an excellent idea

And I wouldn't be surprised to see it happen soon.

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Response to dem4decades (Reply #7)

Sun May 2, 2021, 11:09 AM

64. As another DU'er posted on another thread -

Thatís not far from refusing to insure the obese.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #64)

Sun May 2, 2021, 04:01 PM

72. Obesity is highly contagious? And if there was a free vaccine

People could get that would end obesity, and they didn't take it, yes then I would support denying coverage to them too.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sat May 1, 2021, 10:58 PM

13. You Are Definitely On Point-We Should Be the Party Seeking to Quickly Reach Herd Immunity

so we can all move on

spotlight what an outstanding vaccination program Biden rolled out and focus on finishing the job quickly. The Democratic states are almost universally ahead of the game on vaccination. Preach the good news!!! We might not get to herd immunity in the South and other evangelical states for quite awhile. Hopefully, it will become quite clear that these Democratic states have the correct strategy. Point to them as they reach herd immunity. We will get punished if we are the party of restricting movement after 70% of the population in a specific area are vaccinated.

I've been thinking about posting something similar lately.

Great post

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Response to Stallion (Reply #13)

Sat May 1, 2021, 11:44 PM

23. All well and good - as long as variants that evade the immune system don't start spreading

I think I will mask up forever

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #23)

Sun May 2, 2021, 02:00 AM

34. I think you have a misconception about "evade the immune system"

That phrase refers to natural immunity obtained from catching the actual virus, not vaccinations. Vaccines are still very highly effective against all known variants, as well as some that have been manufactured in labs.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #23)

Sun May 2, 2021, 02:01 AM

35. I'm with you.

Second jab today, but Iíll be wearing my mask. I donít find it that much of a chore really.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sat May 1, 2021, 11:01 PM

14. Pretty much the main reason I mask up now...

...is because it's still required in many places, and I want to continue to be a part of setting a good example rather than acting privileged.

Even half-vaccinated as I am right now, I'm feeling pretty safe between that and COVID stats in my area. Current data shows that just two weeks after one shot of Moderna or Pfizer (I got Moderna after having J&J canceled on me, dammit!) your chances of spreading COVID if you catch it, or getting sick enough to die or require hospitalization, are very low.

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Response to Silent3 (Reply #14)

Sun May 2, 2021, 02:01 AM

36. That's why I do it, too.

I'm three weeks past my second vaccination. The odds I could catch it are very low, and the odds I could spread it are even lower.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sun May 2, 2021, 12:40 AM

26. I totally agree, the non vaccinated folk equate to someone

walking down a highway on the middle yellow line,,,
sooner or later they'll get hit.
Sad really and if only faux, bretbart and others could be shut down.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sun May 2, 2021, 04:32 AM

43. Things are seeming a lot more normal here in KCMO.

Masks in public places but that's no big deal

Restaurants are opening up again. No restrictions.

I have both shots and that made me feel a lot better.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sun May 2, 2021, 06:11 AM

45. Proof of vaccination should be required to enter inside spaces

Stores restraunts airplanes offices mass transit
Foreign entry must be restricted
maskholes need not apply
If they don't care about me F them

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sun May 2, 2021, 08:24 AM

48. My husband and I had our 2nd Moderna shots 1 month ago.

We still wear our masks when going shopping. We are in our 70s so even a mild case can be fatal. I think people should follow the CDC rules or more if they wish. Just not less.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sun May 2, 2021, 08:53 AM

49. To achieve protection, 70% of the population needs to be vaxxed.

Weíll be lucky if we hit 60%. And thatís just America. World wide, it would be a miracle if 50% of the adult population got vaxxed.

Look at India, 1.3 billion people, they arenít getting them vaxxed any time soon.

Look at Japan, 1% vaxxed, but having the Olympics anyway.

Sorry, but we are never going back to Ďnormalí again. Have and keep masks for the rest of your life. Wash your hands frequently. Avoid crowds. All this is the new normal.

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Response to apnu (Reply #49)

Sun May 2, 2021, 09:57 AM

55. Not the new normal.

Many of us are not ok with living the way we've had to over the last year for the rest of our lives.

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Response to apnu (Reply #49)

Sun May 2, 2021, 11:35 AM

65. No way in hell I or most Americans are wearing a mask forever.

And any political party that pushes that idea will be out of power.

Despite what some want to believe the vaccine works very well. Out of 75 million Americans who have received the shot less than 10000 have caught Covid. Less than 150 have died. If I was afraid of those odds I would never drive again.

And the variants are prevented as well.

Iím not criticizing those who want to wear masks forever. Their choice. But when they use spurious science to claim everyone should do it I will object.

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Response to apnu (Reply #49)

Sun May 2, 2021, 01:05 PM

66. I am not wearing gd masks forever

You can hide for the rest of your life, I got vaccinated and intend on living somewhat normally again.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sun May 2, 2021, 09:22 AM

51. I agree with your post.

I have cystic fibrosis and have been very careful. But in about a month, when everyone will have had the opportunity to get the vaccine, I will cease masking and resume normal activity. That could change if a variant spreads that evades the vaccine. But otherwise I refuse to indulge in unreasonable fear.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sun May 2, 2021, 09:46 AM

53. I would like to see that if YOU got your second vaccination, then

YOU do whatever you want. Let OTHERS decide how they want to handle their own situation. Pretty plain and simple that way!

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Response to bluestarone (Reply #53)

Sun May 2, 2021, 06:54 PM

76. My view exactly. But my concern is Democratic office holders will keep restrictions going

Well after every American who wants the vaccine has it. That will kill us politically.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sun May 2, 2021, 09:56 AM

54. I'm already there.

Had my second shot two weeks ago Friday and spending the weekend in Chicago. Enjoying some restaurants we've been missing and just the city in general. So nice to be able to walk around outside without a mask as we had to do on previous but shorter visits.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sun May 2, 2021, 10:06 AM

56. How, exactly, do we "cut out" the anti-vaxxers?

How do you even know who is vaxxed or isnít?

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Response to Treefrog (Reply #56)

Sun May 2, 2021, 10:55 AM

58. I ignored the hell out of my Bible Thumper anti-vax neighbor...

yesterday....she tried to come over and talk to me unmasked...I waved her off and walked around her, like she had the plague...
I'm sure it hurt her feelings, but I'm out of fucks to give for ignorant people

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Response to HipChick (Reply #58)

Sun May 2, 2021, 10:59 AM

59. Well, yeah, easy if you have prior knowledge of the person.

But in general, thereís no way to know who is or isnít vaccinated. I had my second shot yesterday, didnít expect much of a reaction, but my arm is much more sore than the first time. Feeling a bit rocky too. Going out for a hike and hope that helps!

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Response to Treefrog (Reply #59)

Sun May 2, 2021, 11:03 AM

61. Hope you feel better Treefrog...I'm am 2 weeks post 2nd jab

Only thing I had was fatigue for about 5 days...
Debating on whether to return to the gym this week..

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Response to HipChick (Reply #61)

Sun May 2, 2021, 11:05 AM

62. Thanks! Yeah, I slept really well for the first 4 hours last night.

Then felt achy and chilled. Definitely donít have my usual energy. What a great feeling to be two weeks past it! Youíre fully vaxxed! Woohoo! Looking forward to it.

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Response to Treefrog (Reply #56)

Sun May 2, 2021, 01:44 PM

68. Once everyone is vaccinated that wants it

We stop the masks and all. Because these vaccines are proving incredibly effective against even the variants. 100 million vaccinated. Less than 10,000 have then caught Covid. Less than 150 dead. If vaccinated you are at way higher risk of dying in a car wreck than from Covid.

As long as that does not change we open things up after everyone who wants the vaccine gets it. Iím not going to continue to live like we are for the worst amongst us. I could give a shit if they get it after refusing a vaccine.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #68)

Mon May 3, 2021, 03:50 PM

92. Exactly.....x 100

I say give it til the end of July for people to get vaccinated.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sun May 2, 2021, 10:52 AM

57. I agree with you.

I'm still masking up because our Governor asked us to. Social distancing is easy for me since I'm retired and there still aren't many places to go to that I would frequent even without a pandemic. My state is at 50% vaccinated, so once it reaches 70% or so, then she'll probably lift many of the restrictions if not all and I'll no longer mask.

I've never been one to live in constant fear of the "what ifs".

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sun May 2, 2021, 01:30 PM

67. I don't hate wearing a mask.

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Response to Iggo (Reply #67)

Sun May 2, 2021, 02:13 PM

70. Me neither.

Ohio won't lift the mask, distancing and group mandates until we reach 50 new cases per 100k people over a two-week period.

I'm frequently upset at this state, but I appreciate having an objective measurement like that as our guide.

That's about 3.57 new daily cases per 100k people here, and no state in the country has reached that low level yet! Not even California, which has about 5 daily cases per 100k according to the NYT.

Anyway, if I see people continuing to wear masks after the mandates are over... it's no skin off my nose.

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Response to Buckeye_Democrat (Reply #70)

Mon May 3, 2021, 08:07 AM

77. Same here

I will continue to wear a mask even though I am vaccinated. For one, I used to catch 1 or 2 severe colds every year and haven't caught a single one since wearing masks. That alone is enough to keep me wearing one.

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Response to djm5971 (Reply #77)

Mon May 3, 2021, 08:13 AM

78. Absolutely.

I used to look at pictures of the Japanese wearing masks in public during their cold/flu seasons, and I felt envious that they were more sensible than us.

I've also not had any cold or flu ever since the Covid pandemic developed here.

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Response to Buckeye_Democrat (Reply #78)

Mon May 3, 2021, 10:51 AM

79. Agreed

Yes, the Japanese were decades ahead of us when it came to wearing masks to prevent illnesses.

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Response to djm5971 (Reply #79)

Mon May 3, 2021, 02:20 PM

90. They Aren't Doing

too well on the vaccination front. That really surprises me.

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Response to Iggo (Reply #67)

Mon May 3, 2021, 01:05 PM

85. It doesn't bother me, unless it's really hot.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Mon May 3, 2021, 01:03 PM

84. I'm about there. I have less than a week to go for full immunity, and

while I will wear a mask according to whatever mandates or policies are in place, I am going to start doing my thing again. Which is, restaurant dining indoors, shopping without feeling nervous (and guilty--yeah, I felt weirdly guilty every time I browsed in stores for recreational shopping, even with a mask on and trying to distance), visiting family. I hope everything opens up again soon, and if stubborn antivaxers and maskholes (they're almost always the same people) want to keep spreading the crud, let them--and let them suffer the consequences. I understand there's a risk of breakthrough infection, post-vaccine, or that a variant might cause trouble, but I'm not going to let the loonies restrict my life anymore.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Mon May 3, 2021, 01:49 PM

89. For me, it's one week away. That is when I'm 2 weeks out from my 2nd shot.

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