The Catholic church, already losing members like mad, decides to kick out a whole bunch more members

[Binkie The Clown]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/catholic-bishops-vote-draft-communion-181141171.html

Catholic Bishops Vote to Draft Communion Guidelines that Could Exclude Abortion Proponents

The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops voted to create draft guidelines on the meaning of Communion that could eventually bar people who express support for abortion from receiving the Eucharist.

The proposal to draft the guidelines passed a 168-55 vote on Friday during an annual spring meeting of the conference, held virtually this year because of the coronavirus pandemic. Bishops engaged in discussion on whether to include a statement on the church’s teaching on abortion in the guidelines for receiving Communion.

“The eyes of the whole country are on us. If we don’t act courageously, clearly and convincingly on this core Catholic value, how can we expect to be taken seriously on another matter?” San Francisco Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone said in comments reported by the Washington Post.

Old white men vote against the younger members yet again. They will have nobody to blame but themselves when they become a tiny remnant of a once widespread religion.

[MagickMuffin]

1. Could someone please point me to the passage in the Bible where it discusses abortion?

I don't recall ever seeing such a passage.


Meanwhile it is fine and dandy for these bishops to grope on the alter boys and protect each other in the process.


Hey old white bishops, STAY OUT OF WOMEN'S REPRODUCTIVE HEALTH. We don't need your interference.

[Sympthsical]

3. It's about the taking of life, i.e. "Do not kill"

(Note: I'm an ex-Catholic and staunchly pro-choice. Just laying out answers).

The Catholic Church believes that life begins at conception. Once egg meets sperm, that's an individual life. An abortion is taking that life. There's a lot more theology and philosophy behind it all, and you can get lost in the weeds if you read too far. But that's more or less the crux of it.

[Caliman73]

17. Agreed. Plus Catholicism is not Bible based like many Protestant denominations.

What people do not seem to understand is that Catholicism is based on Apostolic tradition as well as the Bible. Catholicism imbues the Pope with infallibility when discussing spiritual and dogmatic concepts so the abortion thing is not about it being in the Bible or not. It is from Encyclical letters.

Within the context of the Bible, before Jesus ascended into heaven he made Peter, the Rock upon which the church was founded. Essentially Peter was the first Pope. Supposedly what Peter and the Church founders held upon earth, would be held in Heaven, meaning that the rules that were made by the Pope and Church leadership were recognized in Heaven.

Of course there were critics of that doctrine, which created the basis for the Protestant Reformation.

I would not be sad if the Church disappeared or made themselves irrelevant. Catholicism served me well for a time, but I too have moved past the need for that kind of structure and belief system.

[ret5hd]

23. So, if the pope said abortion is ok, then...

it’s ok with god also?

[Caliman73]

33. Essentially, yes.

If you accept the doctrine of Papal infallibility with regards to spiritual teaching, what is held fast on earth is held fast in Heaven.

The statement would have to be made in the form of a Papal Encyclical letter, it would have to be official documentation which would likely require discussion among the College of Cardinals and undergo doctrinal review.

Vatican II was a conference held in the 1960's that had a profound effect on how the Church interacted with people. It changed rules, it changed how Mass was celebrated, etc... It is still highly contentious among liberal and conservative factions in the Church.

There are a ton of people in the world who take this very very seriously.

I grew up Catholic and studied doctrine for 11 years, from 2nd to 12th grade. I no longer practice and thus am "in a state of mortal sin" I also do not believe. It is a sore spot in my family, who still practice. I just could not get past the idea that men (literally) were making these profound rules for people to live by based on a book cobbled together from oral tradition and created in "smoke filled rooms", as well as political machinations. Like I said however, there are a lot of people who would die for this idea and kill.

[ret5hd]

41. Well, sounds like a solution then.

[soldierant]

49. Provided the Pope is speaking "ex cathedra," yes.

[Escurumbele]

62. Great question...I guess it would be because according to Catholics, the Pope is the representation

of God on Earth.

I used to be a Catholic...and if I recall correctly, whatever the Pope says becomes law for the Catholic church.

All this talk about "Not killing". I walked out of a church (I was there because my wife insisted) because when Bush/Cheney/republicans sale of the Iraq invasion, during his sermon the priest started peddling the invasion, I found it so disgusting and hypocritical for a priest to be promoting killings, because that is the only thing that comes out from wars, that I just got up and walked out. Now I wish I had said something while I was walking out, but I didn't.

[janterry]

91. The Pope cannot change this doctrine

n/t

[Midnight Writer]

51. As a lad, I (raised Southern Baptist) was surprised when I dated a Catholic girl.

To us, everything is Bible Bible Bible.

To her, she said the Bible is not something she pays attention to. She goes by Church teachings and sees that as separate and more important than anything in the Bible.

While I was drilled in Bible studies, she was all about catechism.


We used to have some lively discussions about religion.

[Freddie]

58. And the Pope said to NOT use the Eucharist as a weapon

So much for obeying the ultimate Catholic authority.

[Caliman73]

72. upwards of 90% of Catholic women of childbearing age have used birth control

So... yeah. We don't tend to follow doctrine.

And people wonder why, right?

[DenaliDemocrat]

61. Actually, it was German lords who wanted to seize Papal lands

That led to the Reformation. Feudalism and greed were what fueled the acceptance of Luther’s “new” religion. Not some great theological hand wringing (save a few).

Just as Anglicanism was born from another disgruntled monarch, not the masses having fundamental issues.

The ironic thing is Jesus was literally preaching against the same sorts of adulterated “rules” and abuses by the Sanhedrin.

It’s also interesting how so much Catholic teachings are viewed through the lens of Aquinas, but his theology on ensoulment is summarily rejected

[TheBlackAdder]

32. But life doesn't start until the first breath. And causing a miscarriage results in a fine.

[uponit7771]

103. +1, lets you know how many people have actually even skimmed the bible vs being dragged to

... hear what is in it

[marybourg]

63. They only started believing that life begins at conception, when it

became evident that Catholics were not reproducing in sufficient numbers to maintain the Catholic clergy in the manner to which they had become accustomed. To justify condemning birth control and abortion, it was necessary to “ believe” that life began at conception.

[Willis88]

70. That's a load of malarkey

Not just Catholicism but Muslims too I believe have beliefs that a pregnant women represents two lives. It’s a central theme going back to the birth of Christ at least.

I do think abortion os a choice, and it’s a choice I promise myself not to use, but I don’t see why I should enforce my beliefs on everyone else.

[marybourg]

89. Catholics used to believe life started at "ensoulment",

or “quickening “, known to women as feeling life.

And this is just the expressed doctrine. Actual behavior towards pregnant women, babies and children was even more telling of their real intent.

See, for example:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/catholic-church-teaching-on-abortion-dates-from-1869-1.1449517

[Willis88]

95. The link speaks nothing to the topic at hand

That link speaks nothing to support the following claim that was made:

“They only started believing that life begins at conception, when it became evident that Catholics were not reproducing in sufficient numbers to maintain the Catholic clergy in the manner to which they had become accustomed. To justify condemning birth control and abortion, it was necessary to “believe” that life began at conception.”

[marybourg]

98. It shows that they only started to believe that life begins at conception

about 150 years ago. Before that, they believed life began at quickening.

[flibbitygiblets]

137. Malarkey eh?

I love that Biden has brought that word back from antiquity.

I have no opinion on anything related to religion, just wanted to say welcome to DU!

[Sympthsical]

86. That's just really not true

There's a whole history there, including verses in the Bible, theology, philosophy, eschatology, etc.

For example, Aristotle had a lot to say about ensoulment (when we gain souls), and one stage of it included an embryo. An embryo was considered to have a kind of "sleeping" soul. These ideas are not at all recent. They literally go back millennia and were much discussed among the educated religious throughout the Middle Ages. A lot of Greek and Roman philosophy continued on into the Western Catholic canon.

So when life begins, when are we ensouled. It's all there in Catholic theology and has been for a very, very, very long time.

[marybourg]

92. See # 89.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

76. So is the Church opposed to the death penalty?

It should be.

However, hypocrisy is all too common a trait in all churches and so-called Christians.

[iemanja]

79. They are

but clearly they don't make it a priority.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

81. They hardly make it even known.

And whenever I've seen various debates on the death penalty, I've never seen a lawmaker say, "I'm Catholic and therefore opposed."

I was raised Catholic, and I can recall having serious doubts about things by the time I was seven or eight. All during high school I'd fight my mother over having to go to mass. One of the reasons I left home as soon as I could. Interestingly enough, about twenty or so years down the road, neither Mom nor any of her six kids were still practicing Catholics.

[janterry]

100. Church teaching was that, there might be an extreme situation

in which one had no choice but the death penalty. But they meant really no choice (no ability to incarcerate someone). There were some in the church who used to think that meant it was permissible.

Pope Francis has made church teaching on this front and center. He even changed it to say there is NO circumstance where it is permissible.

https://www.vaticannews.va/en/pope/news/2018-08/pope-francis-cdf-ccc-death-penalty-revision-ladaria.html

Old text: 2267. Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

New text:
2267. Recourse to the death penalty on the part of legitimate authority, following a fair trial, was long considered an appropriate response to the gravity of certain crimes and an acceptable, albeit extreme, means of safeguarding the common good.

Today, however, there is an increasing awareness that the dignity of the person is not lost even after the commission of very serious crimes. In addition, a new understanding has emerged of the significance of penal sanctions imposed by the state. Lastly, more effective systems of detention have been developed, which ensure the due protection of citizens but, at the same time, do not definitively deprive the guilty of the possibility of redemption.

Consequently, the Church teaches, in the light of the Gospel, that “the death penalty is inadmissible because it is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person”,[1] and she works with determination for its abolition worldwide”.

[iemanja]

77. Yet they focus now only on abortion in these pronouncements

Not the death penalty or anti-vaxx campaigns, or the deaths of black people at the hands of police. I don't believe for a second they give a shit about human life. Their mission is to keep women subjugated.

This from a once sort-of Catholic.

[SharonClark]

88. That's the point - they want abortion to be the

preeminent issue. War, death penalty, poverty, fascism, etc. aren’t important.

[Skittles]

90. aren't they anti-birth control too?

I'll never truly understand why people tolerate this nonsense.

[spike jones]

50. Numbers 5, 11-31 is thought by some to describe a drug-like induced abortion.

https://carm.org/abortion/does-numbers-511-31-prescribe-abortion-drugs-in-cases-of-ad

[Lonestarblue]

59. From Numbers 5.

“20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”

Sanctioned abortion through the use of herbs to cause miscarriage—not exactly support for the religious right.

[jmowreader]

69. Numbers 5.11-29

The title is "Test for an Unfaithful Wife," but it's pretty much a step-by-step guide for performing an abortion.

A lot of fundies seem to like Jeremiah 1.5 - "before I formed you in the womb I knew you" - but they don't seem to realize they're talking about one person in that passage - the Prophet Jeremiah.

They also seem to like Exodus 20.13 - "you shall not kill" - but Leviticus 20 - a very long list of people you have to kill - and all the carnage in the OT kinda throws that one out.

[Hestia]

85. The Greek segment on this part of the bible was misinterpreted - it's not do not kill, it's do not

do murder. Two wholly different meanings.

[Maraya1969]

101. Here is where it explains when an abortion is not only OK but done by the priest. They don't talk

about this one ever.

Numbers 5:11-31

The Test for an Unfaithful Wife
11 Then the Lord said to Moses, 12 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah[a] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing.

16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”

“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”


----------------------------------------------------

Here is the Wikipedia response about it's references to abortion

Abortion interpretation
Several commentaries on the Bible maintain that the ordeal is to be applied in the case of a woman who has become pregnant, allegedly by her extramarital lover.[13][30]

One reading is that the ordeal results in a prolapsed uterus if she is guilty.[31] Some interpretations of the ordeal describe the bitter potion as an abortifacient, which induces a purposeful abortion or miscarriage if the woman is pregnant with a child which her husband alleges is another man's. If the fetus aborts as a result of the ordeal, this presumably confirms her guilt of adultery, otherwise her innocence is presumed if the fetus does not abort.[13][14][32][33][34][35][36]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordeal_of_the_bitter_water

[Sympthsical]

2. Withholding Eucharist isn't "kicking out"

There are all kinds of reasons you're not supposed to take communion. Divorce is a big one. Not having gone to confession or living with a mortal sin for which you have not said an act of contrition.

This n' that.

It's pretty ignored by most parishioners. It's not like priests can read your mind. I remember, some years back, my aunt's ex-husband showed up at a funeral. He basically cheated on her and dumped her for a much younger woman. When he went up to take communion, my father just about blew a gasket.

Honestly, outside of media-highlighted cases, no one's going to notice much or care. It's not a huge change from what is already in place.

[Binkie The Clown]

5. Eucharist is kind of the whole point of being Catholic rather than, say Lutheran, or Methodist.

Begin excluded from participation is like being shunned.

[mcar]

7. And it gets them a lot of attention

[Sympthsical]

11. It's really not a big deal

I'm an openly gay man with a partner. I don't go to confession, or really even pray.

During things like weddings or funerals, I go up for communion with everyone else. Just because cultural tradition and things.

No one cares.

[Binkie The Clown]

52. So church is purely a social thing for you. I understand that.

I'm an atheist who used to attend a neighborhood church because they had great people and enjoyable social events. I get it. I didn't take their teachings seriously, and neither do you apparently.

[Delmette2.0]

56. My child who was never part of Catholic or Lutheran...

went to a Catholic service and wanted to experience their communion. No one challenged him and he was not struck down by a bolt of lightning. I think that made him an atheist.

[Willis88]

71. Catholic Church is wrong on this, IMO

People “living in sin” should be encouraged to take the Eucharist so that God may enter their heart and change their ways.

Jesus broke bread with Judas, too.

This control deciding who can or cannot receive the Eucharist doesn’t seem Christlike. Plus the Pope already cautioned against it. American bishops should all be demoted and replaced with the good parish priests that are actually close to the people they survive.

I say this as a devout Catholic and risk excommunication! But in my heart I know right from wrong.

[janterry]

99. I think this is an interesting point

But the catechism already says they should exclude themselves from communion. I mean, that's the teaching. A good Catholic couldn't go up to the altar.

I have not practiced formally in years. But if I did go back (I am considering it), I would have to go to confession first. I know this. I wouldn't just go and break church rules/teaching.

I think the Bishops are in a bit of a bind. Look at this thread. How many people understand church teaching? (Like.....no one. The misconceptions are crazy). So, if you have public leaders saying the catechism doesn't matter - or it can bend the way I wish. Or, sure - it's wrong according to the church but I don't care.

That's quite a thing.

And on an individual level - what do you have to do to be excommunicated lata sententia?

I don't know. I am no ones moral arbiter. But I do think these are hard questions about the church and her teaching.

[GumboYaYa]

4. The Catholic Church is a child molester protection racket....

Who cares what they say. They should be shut down for the generations of child abuse they covered up and the many molesters they protected.

[OhioTim]

53. Not Generations...

Centuries

[mcar]

6. Church of the Holy Pedophile says what?

I'm speaking as a cradle Catholic who even went to a Jesuit college. I have not attended Mass in years.

[Ritabert]

9. I gave it up 50 years ago

The hypocrisy was too much to take.

[secondwind]

8. It's not about " supporting abortion" .......

It’s about supporting a woman’s RIGHT TO CHOOSE.

[Permanut]

14. +1,000.

So much twisted language on this subject from the RW wacko thumpers.

It's also not about "Abortion proponents".

[moonscape]

35. Indeed. I've not met a single

abortion ‘proponent’ during my long years.

[krkaufman]

87. "proponents"

Exactly.

And that is in the article headline, so clearly journalism is failing.

/// ... is what I typed before seeing that it is a National Review article laundered through "Yahoo News."

[Ritabert]

10. Biden would be welcome in the Episcopal church

That's my suggestion.

[Freddie]

15. And in my ELCA church

But as a Lutheran, I’m not welcome either to receive communion in a Catholic Church. Oh well.

[Jilly_in_VA]

20. And in my Orthodox Church

because even though the Church is against abortion, we don't presume to tell everyone else to do. At least that's what my priest said.

[Ritabert]

27. Good for your minister

..

[Ritabert]

26. Good for ELCA.

..

[shrike3]

132. The Bishop in Delaware is not going to deny him communion.

Wilton Gregory in D.C. has said the same.

Biden's already been denied communion once, during the primaries in South Carolina. The church is not a monolith, no matter what outsiders think.

Biden will not be leaving the church. And if I had a dollar for every time the Episcopal Church was offered as an alternative for a Catholic, I'd be rich. I'm sure even Biden's heard it already.

[malaise]

12. The fewer the better for humanity

That is all

[Phoenix61]

13. Awesome! Now if we could pull their tax free status...nt

[Jilly_in_VA]

21. When they get involved in politics

we damn well should. And Papa Francisco told the bishops not to politicize the Eucharist. Anyway, Bp. Gregory of the Diocese of DC said his bishops will NOT refuse Biden communion, so there's that.

[spanone]

16. I was raised catholic.

FUCK THEM.

[twodogsbarking]

22. If you were raised Catholic there is no explanation needed.

If you weren't raised Catholic there is no explanation possible.

[Ritabert]

29. No explanation needed

Ten years in Catholic school

[twodogsbarking]

36. First twelve years in the same building.

Four college years at a college with the same name. I survived but not without scars. Life is good, real good.

[spanone]

65. I escaped after my first year in high school. My parents were losing interest too.

Church was against the pill and my folks had five kids.....

[Solly Mack]

18. I don't take them seriously on any matter.

Religion/religious leaders only have the power over you that you give to it/them.

[DFW]

19. There the guy who's got religion'll tell you if your sin's original

If it is, try playing it safer
Drink the wine and chew the wafer…..

[twodogsbarking]

25. It takes approximately 98,000 wafers to

eat an entire Christ.

[EarnestPutz]

28. Funny. I really prefer your response to the others here who absolutely condemn the....

....Catholic Church and would see it shut down. Like almost everything in my life, the Catholic church has it's contradictions. I hope that it tries to correct its shortcomings, but want it to continue to be one of world's clearest voices in the struggle for human rights.

[Hortensis]

44. Yes, nice that someone joked up for it. And that you spoke up

as a Catholic. You're hardly the only one here, of course.

[EarnestPutz]

136. Thank you.

[shrike3]

134. European leaders who don't particularly like the church support Francis because of his advocacy

for immigrants and climate change. Sort of the enemy of my enemy is my friend, sort of thing.

[TheRickles]

31. It just might be the best of all of Tom Lehrer's songs.

[Dial H For Hero]

66. 2, 4, 6, 8, time to transubstantiate!

[twodogsbarking]

24. My hope is that people are now caring more about the earth and other people

than they are about religion. Maybe they are thinking more.

[czarjak]

30. During Jim Crow, the klan hated Blacks, Jews and Catholics. In that ordet.

[Marrah_Goodman]

38. Many Protestant churches still preach that the Catholic Church is satanic.

[SharonAnn]

121. Yup, shocked that an acquaintance in East TN referred to Church as "Whore of Babylon"

[shrike3]

133. Catholics get it from all sides.

[shrike3]

115. Yep. It's absolutely bizarre to me that Catholics would ally themselves to the right wing.

[Corgigal]

34. They wouldn't even

allow a baptism for my newborn, because it was with my second husband. Who I’m still married to over 30 years later.

They can Kiss my ass. Bunch of old male fools.

[Marrah_Goodman]

40. Where was that?

That is pretty nuts and frankly it's like the church shooting itself in the foot. They are already losing members and closing parishes. So now they want to alienate a huge portion of society that are divorced, remarried and have another child? Stupid.

[Corgigal]

42. Where?

Tampa Florida, Hillsborough County. Child. Baby girl with red hair, born Apr 21st 1991.

Yeah, it really happened.

[Marrah_Goodman]

43. Geesh, that is nuts.

Sorry you went through that.

[Marrah_Goodman]

37. The Pope already told these clowns not to do this.

They might be in trouble with their boss.

[shrike3]

117. They're being ignored by their boss. And rightfully so.

Most people don't know this, but in 2019 conservative American bishops mounted what could be called a coup against Francis. Calling for him to resign. Of course he didn't. Life went on as usual.

[patphil]

39. The Catholic Church hasn't actually followed the teachings of Jesus since the Romans took it over.

Emperor Constantine seized control of what was then called the Church of the Desposyni in the early 300's AD. He turned it into the Roman Catholic Church, and had the teachings of Jesus revised to suit his liking.
From a spiritual standpoint, the Roman Catholic Church has never lived up to the teachings of Jesus. And, with 1700 years of doubtful leadership and self-serving modifications, it no longer bears much resemblance to it's original roots.

[ansible]

83. Still honestly amazes me how old the Church is though, oldest organization in the world

I know many hate it, but they aren't going away anytime soon. Latin America and Africa are still quite religious.

[shrike3]

109. Only eight percent of the church is in America

Every American Catholic could leave and it would make little difference. Sixty-six percent of the church is in the Third World. That's where its future lies. Asian church, African church, Latin church. This is partly a temper tantrum on the part of the U.S. bishops. They've slid into irrelevance and they hate that.

This is inside baseball, but in 2019 the American bishops tried to mount a coup. I'm serious. Called for Francis to resign. I ate popcorn because of course it didn't work. No one backed them up. Since they can't go after Francis, they go after Biden.

[shrike3]

110. I'll have to tell the lovely Franciscan priests I know

That they don't follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. I'm sure they'll find it enlightening.

[patphil]

126. I hope so.

[shrike3]

130. They've been around the world, sometimes in dangerous places.

Comforting those who need it, giving of themselves. I think they know a little more about makes a Christian than you do.

They're also well educated. They probably know more about church history than you do.

[patphil]

135. Ask them who Yeshua is.

Also ask them about Yeshua's parents.
Joseph was an Essene priest, not a poor carpenter. Mary was an Essene priestess.
The family name was ben Panther; not to be confused with the false stories concerning a Roman soldier by the name of ben Pantera. That was one of the ways the history of Yeshua ben Panther was corrupted.
For the record, "ben" means son of, and Panther means lion.
His family were the Lions of Judah. That's why Yeshua is referred to as the Lion of Judah.
Mary Magdalene was not a prostitute, she was also an Essene priestess, and the wife of Yeshua. Again, she was denigrated by the Romans when they took over the Disposnyi.
Yeshua's inner circle was comprised of 3 people: Mary Magdalene, the apostle Thomas, and the apostle Judas.
Interesting thing about Judas. There were two people by that name in the New Testament. Judas Iscariot, and Yeshua's brother Judas.
So, the question becomes: which one was the apostle, and which one was the betrayer.
I'll let you guess. Hint: Yeshua wouldn't pick a violent man.
Thomas was also denigrated as a doubter.
And then there was Peter, who was called the rock. Not because he was the foundation of Yeshua's church, but because he was, as they would say today, thick as a brick.

The Romans perverted all of Yeshua's teachings to suit their needs. The centuries just continued the work of rebuilding the Roman Catholic Church as something quite different from what Yeshua created.
Your friends sound like really good people, but that doesn't mean they know the true history of their religion. It's deliberately held back from almost everyone in the church. Only those with a need to know have any idea of the truth.

[justgamma]

45. Remember, they did the same thing

to John Kerry when he was running for President.

[TlalocW]

46. Alternate headline

Kid-Fuckers and Protectors of Kid-Fuckers Mistakenly Think They Can Dictate Morals to Others

TlalocW

[Duppers]

68. Bingo!

Perfect response!

[uponit7771]

104. +1

[DallasNE]

47. Is Weaponizing The Eucharist The Goal?

Be causing that will be the outcome. Also, didn't Pope Francis recently warn against such action? If so it is these Bishops that are out of step with Church leadership..

[janterry]

48. This is not a change to doctrine in the least

This was ALWAYS doctrine. This is being reported on as if it is something new. It is not. No Catholic who aids or supports or encourages or whatever an abortion is supposed to receive communion. It is a grave sin. The bishops are just clarifying the catechism of the church.

If you facilitate or help or support or whatever an abortion you are not allowed communion. The thing they are discussing is whether the Bishop should step in and let a communicant know the church teaching and tell them they have been excommunicated.

A practicing catholic is not supposed to go to communion of their own accord - because they have gravely sinned. They have effectively been excommunicated ALREADY (latae sententiae excommunication).

https://catechism.cc/articles/abortion-excommunication.htm

I was raised Catholic. This has always been church teaching.

[shrike3]

119. Except that Francis has already been on record saying the Eucharist is not to be used

as a weapon.

Joe's home church in Delaware has already said he will not be denied communion. Wilton Gregory in D.C. has said the same.

Joe was already denied communion in South Carolina, during the primary. The American church is much like America itself: red and blue areas.

[janterry]

120. I think this is getting too much national media - and articles written by those not

well versed in Church teaching. Here is what is reported from the Church itself

The full body of bishops also voted to task the Committee on Doctrine to move forward with the drafting of a formal statement on the meaning of the Eucharist in the life of the Church. Requiring a simple majority vote for approval, the action item passed with 168 votes in favor, 55 against, and 6 abstentions.

https://www.vaticannews.va/en/church/news/2021-06/us-bishops-vote-in-favor-of-drafting-document-on-eucharist.html

There is NO statement from the Bishops. The US Bishops and the Pope are not in disagreement. All that has happened, is that they want to draft a statement reinforcing basic Catholic Catechism.

Here is more detail:
The doctrine committee’s proposed outline covers teachings including the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, a “recovery of understanding the Eucharist as sacrifice,” “the importance of Sunday as a day of obligation,” the need for beautiful liturgies, Catholics living as a “Eucharistic people” in daily life, the Eucharist as a “call to conversion,” and the importance of practicing the works of mercy.

Here's the part that might impact Biden and Pelosi (well, in a public Bishop way, the teaching is there right now - they both know it). Anyway, from article:

General worthiness to receive Communion – “Eucharistic consistency” – is included as a sub-section in the document outline; the problem of Catholic politicians supporting policies contrary to Church teaching is also mentioned in the introductory note.

Thursday’s vote is merely to begin drafting a document, they argued, and the bishops will have the opportunity later on to debate the document’s text once it is approved and written.

https://www.ncregister.com/cna/a-eucharistic-document-what-the-usccb-will-be-debating-and-voting-on-today

[shrike3]

123. You're right in that there's a lot of semantics here.

You're also right in that this vote was to move forward in drafting a document. No action has been taken yet. The bishops are such a lightning rod (very much their fault) that anything they do draws ire.

John Kerry was denied communion I think once. Biden was denied during the primaries. I honestly do not think he'll be denied unless the celebrant at that moment decides to do so.

Martin Sheen, a devout Catholic, said that why he personally cannot support abortion, he also cannot force a woman to make the kind of decision he'd like her to make. He's never gotten any pushback about that. Wonder if he will, considering what's happening.

[The Unmitigated Gall]

54. Well, I have a problem

With an institution which covers for and enables pedophiles, so they can shove their eucharist. Moral midgets presuming to dictate morals...F them.

[Joinfortmill]

55. They're looking at even more empty collection boxes.

They lost me forty years ago.

[roamer65]

129. Defund religion!

...and tax it too.

[NanananaFatman]

57. Great news😜

Anything that diminishes that world wide criminal organization is a good thing.

[AZizzy]

60. Somebody explain to me

Somebody explain to me how Exodus 21: 22-23 is not an abortion that simply results in a fine.

[3Hotdogs]

64. --- Send money.

[OldFriend]

67. RICO for Catholic Priests

Well...

The unvirtuous church attacking abortion.

According to Worldometer, there were 19,695,764 abortions, so far, this year.

That whole, men telling adult women what to do, isn't working very well.

Seems like, the catholic church is much better at communicating with young boys.

Come to think of it, Biden should take the gloves off at hit them with a RICO charge for an organized sex organization, then for the second punch, take away their tax exemption.

The catholic church has been operated as a pedo sex ring since the dawn of the church.

Close down the lie.

[Pepsidog]

73. As a white catholic make father of four I'm finished with the church.

[shrike3]

112. Find a parish of color.

Especially an African-American one. It'll be life changing.

[Pepsidog]

127. Good suggestion.

[Pepsidog]

74. As a white catholic make father of four I'm finished with the church.

[The Jungle 1]

75. This is stupid.

Abortion has been around forever. The native Americans did it with a goose quill.
Brazil is 90% Catholic and abortion is illegal. Abortion is rampant in Brazil, at rates that are higher than the US.
We could work together to do the things that would reduce abortion.
Education
Living wages
Affordable housing
Healthcare
But the church and the republican party refuse to address these things. They only support corporate welfare and the failed policies of trickle down.
We can reduce abortion! However laws and church doctrine will not reduce abortion.

[iemanja]

78. True

I never knew so many people who had abortions as in Brazil. They would take a kind of herb and get really sick. It got rid of the fetus though.

[Pas-de-Calais]

80. 64 yr old Catholic here

Mom was most religious
Dad came back from WWII different, most likely PTSD. His sister noticed it first.
My oldest sister is most religious. Also a MAGA, which doesn’t make sense to me.
Rarely go anymore.
Feel I should but ya know?
Same masses all year every year.
idk anymore especially with the holy righteousness bishops spouting off,,,

[luckone]

82. What nasty men Is this an attack on Biden ?

He won’t be able to accept communion and it will be looked on as disapproval by the church? Why now assholes ?

[SharonClark]

93. It's an attack on Biden and pro-choice Dems.

His policies are too popular and undermine their conservative authority.

[shrike3]

111. The bishop in his home church has already said he won't be denied communion.

Wilton Gregory in Washington has already said the same thing.

This is a temper tantrum. Most people wouldn't know this, but in 2019 conservative bishops called for Francis to resign. Of course he didn't. Biden's a closer target.

[luckone]

114. Thanks for info . They have their followers- I read a large percentage of Catholics voted R

[shrike3]

116. The church is extremely disorganized.

People have this notion it's a monolith, but it's anything but. If Biden visits a diocese where the bishop is sympathetic, he'll get communion. Simple as that.

Here in Chicago, there's a church with a gay/lesbian ministry. Lots of very active gay Catholics. No one says a word.

[Progressive Jones]

84. It's hilarious that they believe their little votes and documents actually mean anything.

They should clean up their rampant sexual assault problems before they run their mouths about anything else.

[Tomconroy]

94. I remember my mother telling me

About a conversation my parents had probably 65 years ago with Father O'connell, the parish priest. He told them, not approvingly:"All of the Bishops vote Republican".

[Takket]

96. i actually laughed when i heard this

way to alienate yourselves from the general populace. this is going to drive down their attendance just so they can "stick it" to Biden. cutting off their noses to spite their face.

[empedocles]

102. My friend who was a Catholic deacon, and became a priest, reported that

some years ago, that the seminaries were getting angry, right wing types.

[shrike3]

108. Definitely. Too bad.

The Franciscans in my area are wonderful, but they are a different breed.

[SharonAnn]

122. Oh, instead of the "gay types"?

[shrike3]

131. Gay men have been known to be extremely conservative.

I've known a few. Avid Trumpers.

[ShazzieB]

138. Three words: Log Cabin Republicans.

https://logcabin.org/

[MineralMan]

105. Unsurprising, Really. Archaic Institution Makes Archaic Pronouncement.

The RCC does not have a solid moral place to stand. Nope.

[shrike3]

113. The American church is eight percent of the church worldwide.

This makes absolutely no difference in the greater scheme of things. Francis is focused on climate change and global poverty. At its 2020 meeting, the USCCB said the issue to override all others was abortion.

Sixty-six percent of the church is in the third world. That's where its future is. The USCCB is sliding into irrelevance and has been for quite some time. This is basically a temper tantrum by a bunch of guys few take seriously anymore.

[JHB]

106. So much for the adage "Church is a hospital for sinners, not a showcase for saints"

[shrike3]

107. Eight percent of the RCC is in the U.S. Every Catholic in America could leave

And the church would largely be intact. Sixty-six percent of the church is in the Third World. That's where its future lies.

The USCCB has been sliding into irrelevance for quite some time. In a lot of respect, this is a temper tantrum by those bishops. They want to be top dogs and bishops elsewhere in the world frankly aren't having it. Francis has already said a schism with the American church could happen and that he doesn't fear it. Why would he? The church will go on. His office is focused on climate change and global poverty. Meanwhile, the USCCB's top issue at last year's conference? Abortion. As one observer put it, the American church could end up howling and alone.

[Deep State Witch]

118. Two Divergent Views of the US RCC

I gave up on Catholicism years ago when I became a Wiccan, but my husband still attends Church. His view is that there are two divergent views within the US RCC. The conservatives are more focused on being "against" things, like abortion, LGBTQ+ rights, birth control, etc. There's even a lot that want to bring back the Latin Mass. (Ugh! Boring!) There are more progressive priests that are more concerned with what used to be called "Liberation Theology", and concerned about helping the poor, not overly concerned about birth control, abortion, etc. They're more accepting of the LGBTQ+ community. Fortunately, he managed to find a more progressive church.

[shrike3]

124. Your husband's take is spot on.

I'm in a very liberal parish in a part of the diocese run by Franciscans. There's sort of a red state, blue state going on with the church.

[Sur Zobra]

125. A conference of pedophiles says what?

Their conference should always be held remotely because no one wants a bunch of pedophiles congregating in their city

[roamer65]

128. Betcha they would give it to Dump.

Probably Hitler and Mussolini as well.