Years ago we had more of a camaraderie at DU

[Cary]

Last edited Mon Jul 19, 2021, 05:30 PM - Edit history (1)

Once upon a time I regarded DU as home. Later I found myself relegated to one group or another and, unable to rise above the silliness, I participated in various battles.

We seem to have moved beyond those battles, yet I experience the same puerile tactics and find myself still pondering the best way to reply. "If you don't like it, don't look at it." "If you have a problem, then you have a problem." In response to heavier abuse: " You don't say?" or "Is that right." ... I could devise any other number of platitudes designed more to hold myself back than to express any sort of substance. Several times I announce flat out, with surprising success, that obtuse replies will be ignored.

A better man than I might simply walk away, or put abusive people on ignore,.
as responding at all to an internet flake is a waste of good energy. And perhaps my plea, here, is a waste of good energy. People are what they are and those who come here in bad faith are not going to hear my plea.

Watch. There will be several who twist my words and will attempt to hijack this thread and distract me. In my last opening post I estimate the nonsense replies at 30%.

So here is my plea: Can we be nicer to each other? It isn't difficult. We used to be nicer to each other. If we play the same stupid.games with each other, what hope do we have dealing with the cult? Don't we need to be better than they are? Don't we need to be more functional, more rational, and more resolute?

Where is it written that I have to be perfect? Why do other people have any right to challenge my person or try to belittle me? If you disagree then you can express that in a nice way. Why do you want to gaslight? What's the point? If you do this you don't actually hurt me. If you play these.games with me you're telling me that you're an asshole, and nothing more.

I expect nothing. Such is the state of my confidence in my fellow liberals. Surprise me for a.change.

[MineralMan]

1. Yours is not an uncommon complaint.

I've only been here since 2008. I don't remember a time when my posts did not sometimes generate personal attacks or sharp negative comments from some DUers. I expect that, since politics is a contentious sort of discussion topic. Even a minor disagreement can be result in a harshly negative response.

Clearly, there are factions on this discussion forum. Some members are staunch progressives, while others take more moderate positions. That often leads to angry words or even attacks. It shouldn't, but that's the nature of this place. It always has been. Some DUers seem to remember every post some other DUer has ever made and will call up old posts from years ago to insult or attack another DUer. That's a shame, but such things occur on all discussion forums.

You mention the responses to a previous opening post you made, but you don't provide us with a link to that post, so we can better understand what led to this current OP. That would be helpful.

I don't have any particular opinion of you. I'm not familiar with your positions, since you post only once in a while. So, I have no real idea what you're discussing. I can say this, though: Anyone who posts from a solid, strongly held political position here will get arguments, some of them sharp and even harsh, from other DUers who do not share that position.

So, please post a link to the previous OP that triggered this one. I promise I'll go look at it to see what happened there.

[Cary]

4. It is not one post, my friend

You and I have had regretful words in spite of my best efforts.

But here is the last thread:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100215540535

[MineralMan]

9. Oh, OK.

Well, I didn't read that thread yesterday. Its title just seemed to me to be some sort of fantasy question, so I just passed the thread by. I have read it now. In fact, I found it by searching for your screen name in my browser, after pressing Ctrl-F.

Since Donald Trump once styled himself as a Democrat, it's not all that fanciful a thought to wonder if he might try that again. It would be a stupid move on his part that would cost him a good deal of his base, and gain him no followers among Democrats. I think he knows that, so he won't try it.

Trump is a mentally-disturbed populist as a politician. He doesn't care about political parties one bit. He doesn't know what either party stands for. He is a self-aggrandizing person seeing only to enrich himself and assume powers he does not deserve.

I didn't read your thread when you posted it. It simply slid past my vision. Had I read it, I doubt that I would have replied anywhere in it. Your proposition was a fantasy so unlikely that it isn't worth a lot of thought, really. I skip a lot of threads for similar reasons. Others did reply, and some of them pointed out that such a circumstance is only vanishingly likely to occur.

[NewHendoLib]

2. Good OP and a few observations on where we find ourselves

I came here in the Bush years and it felt like a haven (though I was not particularly adept at political conversation yet - that's what - 17 years ago) and got nipped at a few times. But Bush was so horrific (in different ways than he who I won't name) that it felt like we were largely aligned against a common enemy.

When we don't have a common enemy, then the rifts within the Democratic party tend to show more - from far left (for which change can never happen fast enough - I raise my hand as part of this camp) to more middle - and the infighting tends to flame up. The four years of he who won't be named were so horrible that alignment returned (I actually left DU for quite awhile due to the Hillary/Bernie wars, so to speak).

Now we have Joe (thank goodness) and we can once again start to splinter a bit due to the differing priorities, rates of change, etc - and having Manchin and Sinema as so-called Democrats doesn't help at all.

Also - don't underestimate the pressure that the four orange asshole years - and COVID - is having on so many people. Frustration is high, patience is low. I have a very few on ignore (long time repeated disagreements, so it is better this way).

Finally - we are a tribal species. we have a long history of conflict. We seem to like to argue. Narcissism is at an all time high, in my opinion due to social networking (talk about both a blessing and a curse).

I myself am trying much harder to just not take the bait - when I think I have something to say I say it - and then I take whatever the responses are, hoping best intent, but realizing how different we all are.

[malaise]

6. Great post

[NewHendoLib]

7. you are just the best, my friend!

[smirkymonkey]

12. +1000

Great post.

[Treefrog]

3. True enough. I had to laugh at a comment on a thread today where a responder had decided the

Op “didn’t like” du-ers. I see so many personal attacks here that I’m amazed that poster even could say that with a straight face. Hell, there was even someone putting people down on one of the Champ threads!

[Cary]

5. smh

Too many such stories

[StarryNite]

26. "Hell, there was even someone putting people down on one of the Champ threads!"

Yes, I saw that too. What is wrong with people? Are some so miserable that the only joy they get is trying to make others feel miserable too?

[Treefrog]

34. It was weird.

[mcar]

61. In short, yes. nt

[jalan48]

8. Identity politics and the power struggles between groups.

[Cary]

42. DU is an internet b.s. board

DU is of no consequence. DU is representative of nothing.

The malicious, inspid games that some seemed compelled to play are just pure stupidity. The only thing more pathetic are the right wing moper sites where the cowards repost our comments and fall all over each other to make a bigger fool of themselves.

[jalan48]

49. Yes, and that's why I try not to take it too seriously. Politics can cause animosity.

[VegasVet]

58. 100% this... That is much, much worse. Good call.

[electric_blue68]

68. I disagree with your "of no consequence" pov...

...unless...I'm misunderstanding this comment.

I've been here only a year, but this year will be my 50th year voting!

I've been paying real attention to politics since I was about 14. I've marched and rallied both in NYC & DC, phone called, phone ne banked, volunteeed in campaigns, and single issues, later also e-mails, computer designed, xeroxed, and put up my own 'vote for' signs through 3 Presidental elections, plus the election help phone #, then I lost access 😔 to such computers, talked to, and informed people etc

Can DU be of so little consequence *when* people:
do find comarderie here, share breaking news, exchange good info and act on it, made donations through here, shore each other up through terrible ble times politically, or personally, share fun, laughter ( hi, DU Lounge in particular), and beauty (looking at u photo group 😁 ) which relieves, or uplifts us.

🤔 I don't think so. 🙂 👍

[JudyM]

71. Agree. All a matter of perspective and expectations. Plenty of good happens here.

[electric_blue68]

77. 🙂 👍

[Caliman73]

10. Oh FFS!!!

I tend to answer posts as if I were having a conversation with the person asking the question or making the claim. I don't always succeed, and surely I have made snarky remarks based on my own emotional reactions. But I truly try not to say anything to anyone that I wouldn't say to their face.

[ChrisF1961]

11. People with different positions are not the problem

There are a lot of different points of view here and I’ve read many thoughtful discussions on issues.

However, there does seem to be a small minority of members who try to be divisive. They will pick fights over silly semantics or some other inconsequential point. Sometimes they just reply with a snarky comment to try to bait another poster. It’s a shame the mostly good and thoughtful people here have to put up with this small minority of disrupters.

[SunImp]

25. People like that think they own the party and any dissenting members should be vigilantly attacked

To me they are pretty much like magats, but they vote blue.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

65. Wouldn't bet on the last part of your last sentence ;)

[betsuni]

46. The literal thinkers, the gaslighters!

You post that X said it was sunny yesterday and get a reply that X said no such thing. So you find the exact quote, "The skies were clear yesterday," but they insist that unless X says the word "sunny" they do not mean it was sunny. You try to explain. It does not work. These conversations can go on for a surprisingly long time. Then you post a link and the rest of the discussion is about how terrible the source is, as if it has anything to do with a direct quote.

[hamsterjill]

69. Yes. This.

I see the same screen names over and over and over doing the baiting and parsing of words. Then they accuse the poster of being less of a Democrat than they are.

Eventually and hopefully, they are recognized and simply ignored, whether with the Ignore function or merely by choice.

[Mosby]

13. I don't think we did.

I have been here since 2003.

How many purges have we had? I've lost count. Remember the meta group? That was a blast, lol.

I would be happy if we could be civil, which I think we do a lot better with than most all discussion boards. Still room for improvement.

I've always had a good impression about you, fwiw.

[Kaleva]

18. Yes. The purges, Meta, 2008 primary and other things seems to have been forgotten by some.

[MineralMan]

19. I haven't forgotten, and neither have many others.

[ProfessorGAC]

22. Agreed

I'm coming up on 20 years.
I'd say the first few months, small crowd, more activity in peripheral groups, lent a collegiality that didn't last long.
But, as the site grew the POVs became more & more diverse.
But, all the way back in 2001 they were cliques.
A certain "journalist" here had a tribal following that divided folks. Those that fawned, and those that criticized. Those 2 sides seldom reconciled, even when there was little difference in goals. The messenger became more important than the message.
Eventually, that person got launched over his "POSUCS" tantrum.

[Blue_Adept]

27. Yep

Been here since the start - I used to run the DCForum software DU is based on at the time on my own site so I connected with the folks here regularly on updates and customizations and all and have been here since the start. 9/11 was a wild time.

Anyway, it's not the congeniality that's the problem, it's the purges of the diversity that has become the problem imo. Everything just feels older and whiter here than ever before in the twenty years you and I have been here. The ghosttowns of the groups and the opinions and ideas that would foster there and bleed out are long gone and we're the worse off for it.

[Cary]

44. Thank you

It's not all negative. I have made good friends here.

[anamnua]

14. You obviously weren't around for the 2008 Obamabot/Hillbot spitefest.

I still carry the scars!

[Crunchy Frog]

37. I joined at the height of the pre primary season for 2004..

That was every bit as bad as I can ever remember this site being.

I got accused of being a Republican, loving GWB, and being part of some sort of organized invasion of the site, operating under military type discipline, because of the candidate I supported.

2008 was the last season that I ever really participated in candidate discussions. Just too toxic

I don't think this place was ever the paradise that people imagine, though it was much better in early 2003 when I first started lurking. At least everyone was pretty much united in opposing the imminent invasion of Iraq.

I missed the first couple years of this place. Maybe that's when paradise existed here.

[Jedi Guy]

39. "I don't think this place was ever the paradise that people imagine"

I agree with you there. To some extent, everyone pines for the "good old days" and views the past through rose-colored glasses.

[Withywindle]

81. The primary forums in an election year are always toxic as hell

I've been here off and on since 2004 (didn't post much during the Obama years - I probably should have, in hindsight). I did learn to avoid the primary-specific forums because, frankly, my election year strategy remains the same it's always been: vote for the farthest-left VIABLE candidate in the primary, vote for the Democratic nominee in the general whoever that may be. I live in a late-primary state anyway, so it's usually de facto decided before it even gets to us.

[Cary]

38. Oh yes I was

Very much so.

[anamnua]

54. Then you must have managed to suppress it.

Lucky you.

[Cary]

63. Suppress it?

[Blue_true]

67. And 2016.

I joined in 2010. 2016 was a big problem during the democratic primary race and even during the General. People were putting our nominee down, some even implied that they were not excited about voting (though they cleverly avoided saying that they would not, their tone was clear enough).

[H2O Man]

15. Recommended.

When I joined in late 2003, DU was a great place. I made a lot of good friends, almost all of whom I remain in close contact with -- though few are still here. Obviously, topics will change as time goes on -- especially going from Cheney-bush to Obama to Trump to Biden. But more than topics have changed. There isn't the closeness there was when DU was inhabited primarily with progressives and liberals. As the site has become much more of a liberal-moderate and even conservative Democrats, the tone has changed. Also, as the general society has gone from conversations to tweets -- the language of Trump as president -- even more is lost. We used to have great, long discussions, and at least two gentlemen from MSNBC used to read things such as the "Plame threads" for information coming from sources here.

[Hekate]

53. This

[Kaleva]

16. The fighting between the Obama supporters and Hillary supporters in 2008 was vicious

[zipplewrath]

30. Bernie Bro's and PUMA's

Not sure which was worse (around here).

[Kaleva]

33. this was before my time but there was the Deaniacs in 2004

[Crunchy Frog]

50. The Edwards supporters were total shits though.

[Saoirse9]

17. I miss the old days

Great post.

[H2O Man]

21. Seriously!

Nothing compares with the days when there were serious discussions, such as on the Plame scandal.

[Saoirse9]

23. Yes I miss serious discussion

I like twitter a lot in fact there were some that I follow on there who saved my sanity in the days after the 2020 election. You were also very helpful when it seemed at first that we had lost.

But I find that now people just repost twitter and there isn't the meaningful discussion nearly as often as there used to be.

Don't get me wrong -- I still find meaningful stuff on here all the time. But it isn't the same with little news bites as it was with longer articles and even longer discussions about them.

I am aging myself. I am probably way too old to enjoy DU anymore.

[H2O Man]

24. Wait until you are my age.

There are still a number of really good people on DU, such as you. But as a cranky old man, I always reserve the right to yell, "Things were better when I was young!"

[Polly Hennessey]

31. Keep yelling it H2O because you are right.

[Blue_Adept]

28. It's why I mostly just read in the editorials section these days looking for good articles people

link to instead of actual on-board discussions.

[Saoirse9]

29. Good tip thank you!!

[blogslug]

35. I used to do a lot more research and post it here but I'm old and exhausted

The last four years wore me out. So much chaos every damned day. I sure as heck don't have the energy for journal-length posts and frankly, those dropped like rocks more than they floated to the top. If information is being shared through Twitter shorthand, it's still being shared.

I think this board is fine. People have mourned DU old-days for as long as I've been here. We get flareups where users lament this or that but that's part of the cycle of a thriving community. I think it's healthy for posters to (constructively) criticize this place. It keeps us mindful.

People come, they stay, some leave, others join, sometimes members return. Overall this place is still full of righteous Democrats.

[Saoirse9]

36. Well said

Thanks for the reminder that we are always evolving.

Twitter shorthand did come in handy during the previous admin when everything was happening so fast, one outrage after another.

[femmedem]

52. I don't initiate discussions or comment in depth as much as I used to

because of the snark if people disagree with me. I love a good back and forth of ideas, but the just-this-side-of-alertable attacks just isn't anything I need in my free time.

So some days I just lurk. Some days I look for news articles interspersed with animal videos, and I comment when someone is going through a hard time or has posted some original art. Once in a while, I still put forth a political opinion, but so much less frequently than I used to.

I realize this means I'm not doing my part to make this community what I wish it was. (I also work more than full time, so that's a factor too.)

[I_UndergroundPanther]

41. I miss the old DU too

Been here a long time, before bush I think.

Had to change my user name after the hack.
Lost my post count.

Used to be undergroundpanther.

I remember DU having a get together in DC.
It was a blast. Got to meet the people I had conversations with online.

Used to write posts out of my heart here and for the most part the threads were thoughtful,inspiring,
honest and insightful .

With the changes here I'm really hesitant about writing my heart out here.

[Saoirse9]

47. Please don't hesitate

I would love to hear what you have to say.

[I_UndergroundPanther]

48. Thank you for saying that.

[Saoirse9]

55. Well I meant it

If you feel moved to express yourself you should always do it.

You might help a lot of people.

You lost your post count but you still have twice as many as I do. I am a woman of few words.

I hope I can see your next OP. Send me a private message when you post it okay?

[I_UndergroundPanther]

66. Ok I'll letcha know

[mopinko]

70. in person get togethers were def part of 'the good old days'

they stopped when trolls started showing up.
library girl's obsession started at a meet up. she stalked poor greatauntoftriplets.
but back then i think about half the lounge lizards had met each other.
hell, people met here and got married.

but more and more people turned out not to be who they pretended to be. some of them bought and paid for.

i have had the pleasure of meeting quite a few folks here in real life, and it is always a great joy.

[happybird]

73. Oh my goodness.

I have been thinking it would be fun to do a meet up for lunch and maybe a little museum hopping with any interested DUers in the DC area now that it’s safe to go out again. I haven’t been downtown, or made new friends, in ages... now I’m not so sure!

That is crazy trolls, fakes, and a stalker (!!) showed to past meet ups! I never thought something like that would happen.

[mopinko]

74. meet up was a big thing at the time. i'm sure the trolls were already on the prowl.

we did try only giving out the info by pm.

it is always great to meet folks.

[KentuckyWoman]

32. Bullies

DU has a lot more of them over time. The owners have seen fit to generally let the community set our own standards, so the more bullies, the more it is tolerated.

Such seems to be the way of the world generally.

[SunImp]

43. Some people would rather take their anger out on other DUers instead of RWingers or trolls

Last edited Tue Jun 22, 2021, 04:23 AM - Edit history (1)

I see these people daily getting angry or annoyed at other DUers because they don't agree with them 100% or
the person or position that they support. I don't understand why these people don't just take their annoyance out on RWers on twitter or trolls instead of people who genuinely want to better our country. Some of them are here trying to act innocent lol

[Peacetrain]

40. I went away for almost 2 years at one point.. I was mad

about how President Obama was treated, and well I was just mad.. and that seems to happen to all of us at some time.. there are some really great posters in here who I love to read.. and honestly Cary that is what I do mostly now.. is read.. and the temperature of the site goes up and down but it is just a great place to catch up on all the sides of of the left.. from center left to far left.. and it keeps me from going to far left or too far center.. just in that sweet spot.. where I can argue with everyone (that is a joke

[Cary]

45. The BOG was a lot of fun

I hear you

[treestar]

82. It's better when there is a Republican in the WH

Some people cannot refrain from complaining and attacking a Democrat in the WH when it doesn't go smoothly and Congress does not cooperate.

There is more unity in opposing an R WH, especially the Dotard of Orange.

[stillcool]

83. I did the same thing! Learned a bit

from that hiatus, but not enough to make myself trigger-proof. What a journey.

[JI7]

51. DU was a mess before and full of trolls spreading conspiracy theories

[VegasVet]

56. This is the exact reason I stopped participating years ago and now largely lurk.

Been a member since 2004, but lurked when I was still in the Army without an account. Participated from about 2004-2006 fairly heavily, but the incivility by some -- including a decently well-known writer made this place a real cesspitt for me and I pulled back. The primaries in 2008 and 2016 convinced me that I'd rather only read and occasionally comment. I've no interest in doing original posts because of the over abundantly loud voices of jerks.

[GulfCoast66]

57. Depends on your perspective. I joined right as the 16 primary was cranking up.

Compared to my first 10 months it’s Nirvana.

[Paladin]

76. That was a rough time to come onboard.

I've been here since 2001, and I still regard the 2016 campaign as ground zero for ugly behavior on this site. That's when I started using my "Ignore" function in earnest. You're correct, it's a hell of a lot better now---but I don't know that we've ever quite restored DU to its pre-2016 pleasantness. Gotta keep trying, though.

[mcar]

59. Having been here since 2002, my observation is

that things are more contentious when a Democrat is in the WH. I've never quite figured that out.

But I agree with you: we should be able to be kinder to each other. Disagreement is fine, even welcome. But the vitriol gets tiring.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

60. We all need to work to make DU a beloved community

[Cary]

64. Is that too much to ask?

[UTUSN]

62. Human nature (and DU) are a mix of all traits and don't change. We are not better than "they" are.

Because we have the filter here of a threshold of being Democratic, we probably have a higher percentage of more like-mindedness *in general* but we still have a mix of backgrounds and intellectual/emotional maturity.

[Thtwudbeme]

72. I miss the PEOPLE- oh, yes- I do

It's amazing that I look at the "In Memoriam" page, and miss so many people that I never even met. Right now, I wish I knew where SoCalDem and Crewleader are.

Some I am friends with on Facebook like ZombyWoof, and Matcam. LynneSin (I probably just spelled that wrong)....some I knew in "real life" like ShakeyDave.

One I married-- We have been married 18 years this summer!

BeachBuckeye (OK, I KNOW I have that wrong) and his radio show- and driving down to sit in the room while JanMichael and he were on the air, live while DUers called in...that was serious fun!

Brainshrub (I still keep up with him) had a great blog-

Yes, indeed, I miss the "olden" days of DU- I do.

[Tommy Carcetti]

75. Yep. 2008 was a blast.

2016? Even better!

[MissMillie]

78. What do you mean I'm not perfect???? :P

I'm not sure I see all that much difference from when I first got here.

That could be because discourse in real life has become ugly of late.

[wellst0nev0ter]

79. I knew this forum changed to something I didn't recognize

When some posters suggested calling Republicans "goops" was akin to using a racial slur

I prefer the days when we were free to throw around epithets like "GOopers" and "rethugs" without being scolded for it.

[Cary]

84. Indeed

[Cary]

85. Indeed

[LetMyPeopleVote]

80. I agree with your assessment

As a fellow member of the bar, I tend to ignore most of the disagreeable/decisive crap Legal training helps in ignoring divisive crap and not taking such divisive crap personally