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WarGamer

(12,301 posts)
Mon Jun 21, 2021, 11:27 PM Jun 2021

No point vaccinating those who've had COVID-19: Findings of Cleveland Clinic study

First of all... it's a non peer reviewed, MedRxiv study review for now...

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210608/No-point-vaccinating-those-whoe28099ve-had-COVID-19-Findings-of-Cleveland-Clinic-study.aspx

But the data is quite interesting. A larger sample size and a more thorough analysis is in order.

The study was conducted on 52,238 employees in the Cleveland Clinic. A positive RT-PCR test was considered to define SARS-CoV-2 infection. The participants received two doses of the Pfizer/BioNTech or Moderna COVID-19 vaccine at an interval of 28 days. A participant was considered vaccinated after 14 days of receiving the 2nd vaccine dose. Similarly, a participant who tested positive for SARS-CoV-2 at least 42 days before the vaccination initiation was considered previously infected.

Of all enrolled participants, 5% had previous SARS-CoV-2 infection. Compared to 59% of non-infected participants, only 47% of previously infected participants were vaccinated by the end of the study. About 63% of all vaccinated participants received the Moderna vaccine.

...snip

Importantly, not a single incidence of SARS-CoV-2 infection was observed in previously infected participants with or without vaccination.

33 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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No point vaccinating those who've had COVID-19: Findings of Cleveland Clinic study (Original Post) WarGamer Jun 2021 OP
Never has been.... LovingA2andMI Jun 2021 #1
My youngest was an election judge for the 2020 general election LetMyPeopleVote Jun 2021 #2
That study also points out it did not involve Covid 19 variants that have appeared since blogslug Jun 2021 #3
Amazing, given this seemingly contradictory finding. FreepFryer Jun 2021 #4
That's what I've heard. Re-infections are relatively common. lagomorph777 Jun 2021 #19
It would be interesting to know the number of study participants. Doremus Jun 2021 #33
I have read that some of the long term residual effects of Covid are mitigated by the vaccine. Scrivener7 Jun 2021 #5
I'm one of them obamanut2012 Jun 2021 #6
So glad to hear it! I can't imagine getting over this thing and then having Scrivener7 Jun 2021 #8
I'm at least one of the lucky ones obamanut2012 Jun 2021 #10
Glad you came through it. Scrivener7 Jun 2021 #11
Thanks, my friend! obamanut2012 Jun 2021 #12
That's Interesting ProfessorGAC Jun 2021 #29
It retriggered some of mine and set back my recovery by months JCMach1 Jun 2021 #14
Wow. Which makes it so much harder to know the right thing to do. Scrivener7 Jun 2021 #16
I still think the positives outweigh the negatives... I took it to insure immunity JCMach1 Jun 2021 #20
Best of luck with the job search. Let us know when you get one! Scrivener7 Jun 2021 #21
I read an article about a woman that was a recreational swimmer. Blue_true Jun 2021 #31
My long-haul effects have lessened greatly since I was vaxxed obamanut2012 Jun 2021 #7
Right...I think I had Covid last spring.. helpisontheway Jun 2021 #18
Oh well. I got vaccinated despite having had the virus. Treefrog Jun 2021 #9
This is the same study quoted by Rand Paul LetMyPeopleVote Jun 2021 #13
Ahhh,now I understand. Kingofalldems Jun 2021 #23
My take on it is the numbers are too small - Ms. Toad Jun 2021 #15
Had Covid in Sept. Vaxed in March. CrackityJones75 Jun 2021 #17
I don't see the argument against vax... WarGamer Jun 2021 #22
Neither do I. CrackityJones75 Jun 2021 #24
My Moderna #2 sucked WarGamer Jun 2021 #25
I had a little issue with fatigue. CrackityJones75 Jun 2021 #28
I felt literally NOTHING after shot #1 WarGamer Jun 2021 #30
The people that don't want to get vaxxed after having covid19 Blue_true Jun 2021 #32
I'd still get vaccinated, because it's turning into something very different Wingus Dingus Jun 2021 #26
definitely... WarGamer Jun 2021 #27

LetMyPeopleVote

(144,832 posts)
2. My youngest was an election judge for the 2020 general election
Tue Jun 22, 2021, 03:36 AM
Jun 2021

She counted 20 unmasked voters in the first hour. A week later she lost her sense of taste but tested negative on one COVID test. We self isolated in my home for two weeks and I was symptom free. Several months later she got her second Moderna vaccine injection and briefly ran a 104 degree fever which doctors told us was consistent with having a mild case back in November

I am happy that she got the vaccine. According to my pulmonary doctor the vaccine generates even more antibodies than normal for persons not exposed to COVID.

blogslug

(37,975 posts)
3. That study also points out it did not involve Covid 19 variants that have appeared since
Tue Jun 22, 2021, 04:28 AM
Jun 2021
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.01.21258176v2.full-text

...The study has its limitations. Because we did not have a policy of asymptomatic employee screening, previously infected subjects who remained asymptomatic might have been misclassified as previously uninfected. Given this limitation, one should be cautious about drawing conclusions about the protective effect of prior asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infection. It should be noted though, that 12% of the subjects classified as previously infected did not have a symptom onset date recorded, suggesting that at least some of those classified as previously infected might have been asymptomatic infections. It is reassuring that none of these possibly asymptomatically infected individuals developed COVID-19 during the duration of the study. The study follow-up duration was short, being only five months, but this was longer than published mRNA vaccine efficacy studies [1,2], and longer than the follow-up duration of the largest published vaccine effectiveness studies to date [3,4]. Median freedom from reinfection (time from initial infection until end of follow-up) in this study, for those previously infected, of almost 10 months, is consistent with findings in an earlier study that immunoglobulin G (IgG) to the spike protein remained stable over more than six months after an episode of infection [16]. Our study included no children and few elderly subjects, and the majority would not have been immunosuppressed. Data governance policies in our institution precluded us from obtaining detailed clinical information on employees. While one cannot generalize this study’s findings to assume that prior infection would provide adequate immunity in these groups, there is also no reason to expect a vaccine to provide additional protection in these same groups. Lastly, it is necessary to emphasize that these findings are based on the prevailing assortment of virus variants in the community during the study. It is not known how well these results will hold if or when some of the newer variants of concern become prominent. However, if prior infection does not afford protection against some of the newer variants of concern, there is little reason to suppose that the currently available vaccines would either. Vaccine breakthrough infections with variants have indeed been reported...

FreepFryer

(7,077 posts)
4. Amazing, given this seemingly contradictory finding.
Tue Jun 22, 2021, 04:59 AM
Jun 2021
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/17/previous-covid-infection-may-not-offer-long-term-protection-study-finds

Previous infection with coronavirus does not necessarily protect against Covid in the longer term, especially when caused by new variants of concern, a study on healthcare workers suggests.

Researchers at Oxford University found marked differences in the immune responses of medical staff who contracted Covid, with some appearing far better equipped than others to combat the disease six months later.

Scientists on the study, conducted with the UK Coronavirus Immunology Consortium, said the findings reinforced the importance of everyone getting vaccinated regardless of whether they had been infected with the virus earlier in the pandemic.

“If you look at the trajectory of the immune response after infection, mostly it is still detectable six months later, but it’s highly variable between people,” said Eleanor Barnes, a professor of hepatology and experimental medicine at Oxford and a senior author on the study.

lagomorph777

(30,613 posts)
19. That's what I've heard. Re-infections are relatively common.
Tue Jun 22, 2021, 11:47 AM
Jun 2021

Due to variants, and probably due to behavioral patterns.

Doremus

(7,261 posts)
33. It would be interesting to know the number of study participants.
Tue Jun 22, 2021, 09:07 PM
Jun 2021

In the Clinic study it was a large sample of +/- 57K. A finding of zero reinfections is interesting in light of those large numbers.

Scrivener7

(50,890 posts)
5. I have read that some of the long term residual effects of Covid are mitigated by the vaccine.
Tue Jun 22, 2021, 08:07 AM
Jun 2021

That some people find relief in the vaccine.

obamanut2012

(26,027 posts)
6. I'm one of them
Tue Jun 22, 2021, 08:21 AM
Jun 2021

I have gotten back almost all of my sense of taste since I've been vaxxed (Moderna). My first shot was mid March, and I had a noticeable improvement within two weeks, more since the second shot.

In addition, I had some annoying gastrointestinal long-haul issues, and they are about 50% better now.

Scrivener7

(50,890 posts)
8. So glad to hear it! I can't imagine getting over this thing and then having
Tue Jun 22, 2021, 08:22 AM
Jun 2021

to keep dealing with debilitating effects.

obamanut2012

(26,027 posts)
10. I'm at least one of the lucky ones
Tue Jun 22, 2021, 08:24 AM
Jun 2021

No cardio or lung, issues, and little fatigue flareups.

I know an ultrarunner who can't even run a quarter mile anymore, and has trouble it. It's terrible.

obamanut2012

(26,027 posts)
12. Thanks, my friend!
Tue Jun 22, 2021, 08:51 AM
Jun 2021

I had a "mild case," which means I was dead sick for two weeks, and couldn't walk up steps for six weeks.

ProfessorGAC

(64,787 posts)
29. That's Interesting
Tue Jun 22, 2021, 07:39 PM
Jun 2021

I had not heard of such therapeutic effects of the vax.
Even if your experience is rare, 1 in a hundred sort of thing, it's still really positive.
Glad you're continuing to recover!

JCMach1

(27,553 posts)
14. It retriggered some of mine and set back my recovery by months
Tue Jun 22, 2021, 10:25 AM
Jun 2021

Covid can be highly idiosyncratic...

JCMach1

(27,553 posts)
20. I still think the positives outweigh the negatives... I took it to insure immunity
Tue Jun 22, 2021, 05:30 PM
Jun 2021

I am finally back to something resembling normalcy and can actually search for a new job now.

I was essentially disabled since October 2020.

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
31. I read an article about a woman that was a recreational swimmer.
Tue Jun 22, 2021, 08:56 PM
Jun 2021

She apparently was a competitive swimmer when younger, but she was doing 100 lap per session recreational stuff.

Then she got COVID19 and it messed her up, like could not go to the mailbox at the end of her driveway or climb 4 stairs messed up.

Then she got vaxxed with either Pfizer or Moderna, I don’t remember which. She noticed improvement immediately and is back to lap swimming.

obamanut2012

(26,027 posts)
7. My long-haul effects have lessened greatly since I was vaxxed
Tue Jun 22, 2021, 08:22 AM
Jun 2021

I have gotten back almost all of my sense of taste since I've been vaxxed (Moderna). My first shot was mid March, and I had a noticeable improvement within two weeks, more since the second shot.

In addition, I had some annoying gastrointestinal long-haul issues, and they are about 50% better now.

And, I am not the only one.

So, yeah, everyone should be vaccinated.

helpisontheway

(5,004 posts)
18. Right...I think I had Covid last spring..
Tue Jun 22, 2021, 11:44 AM
Jun 2021

No tests available so I can’t say for sure. However, I had gastro issues for many months after I was ill. My symptoms gradually went away after I was vaccinated.

LetMyPeopleVote

(144,832 posts)
13. This is the same study quoted by Rand Paul
Tue Jun 22, 2021, 10:16 AM
Jun 2021

As a general rule of thumb, Rand Paul is never right on any issue and this is true here also
https://www.rawstory.com/rand-paul-appears-to-be-confused-about-19-again/

First, the study is far too small to be taken seriously

However, Dr. George Rutherford, an epidemiologist at the University of California-San Francisco, wrote in an email that he would add one caveat to the wording of Paul's tweet: “Note that in his tweet Senator Paul seems to suggest that the denominator of previously infected health care workers at the Cleveland Clinic was 52,238 — that was the total number in the whole study. There were 1,359 that were previously infected and never vaccinated, and there were no reinfections noted over a median follow up of 143 days. So, the tweet itself is accurate if read literally but the denominator is really 1,359."

The consensus right now is that it is best for COVID survivors to be vaccinated.

First, though natural immunity appears to be very effective against the current dominant U.S. variant (known as alpha), it also appears weaker than vaccine immunity against some of the variants circulating, such as the delta variant, first detected in India. That means if those variants eventually become dominant in the U.S., people relying on natural immunity would be less protected than those who are vaccinated.

Second, there is a lack of data about whether natural immunity prevents asymptomatic transmission and infection. Several other studies, though, show vaccines do.

Third, Crotty said his studies have shown that levels of natural immunity can vary widely in individuals. His team even found a hundredfold difference in the number of immune cells among people.

“If you thought about the immune system as a basketball game and you thought about that as a team scoring 1 point, and another team scoring 100 points, that's a big difference," said Crotty. “We're not so confident that people at the low end of immunity levels would be as protected against covid-19."

But those who receive a vaccine shot have a much more consistent number of immune cells, since everyone receives the same dose amount, said Crotty.

With all that in mind, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recommends that those who previously had covid-19 should get vaccinated and receive both doses of a vaccine, whether it's the Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna vaccine. Fauci, the nation's leading infectious disease expert, reiterated this message during a White House covid-19 briefing last month.

This may be the rare time where Rand Paul may be right but I am not holding my breath. Even my youngest child who may have had a mild case of COVID are all vaccinated

Ms. Toad

(33,975 posts)
15. My take on it is the numbers are too small -
Tue Jun 22, 2021, 11:33 AM
Jun 2021

and the time period too short to tell much of anything.

The relevant population (vaccinated & previosuly infected) was approximately 1220 people. Given the varying times that these individuals had to be exposed it is hard to gauge long-term effectiveness, especially since the vaccine effectivenes (based on this trial) would have been 99.3% (when we know the actual effectiveness is about 95%). I'm not terribly impressed that not a single incidence of SARS-CoV-2 infection was observed in previously infected participants with or without vaccination - since we know breakthrough cases happen. (In recent days a DU member lost a father to a breakthrough case, and another as at least 2 breakthrough cases in her family with serious long-term consequences.) So a study that shows no breakthrough cases isn't large enough (or long enough) to capture the true picture.

WarGamer

(12,301 posts)
22. I don't see the argument against vax...
Tue Jun 22, 2021, 05:34 PM
Jun 2021

Honestly, what's the harm?

It has less side effects than many OTC meds...
Just do it.

WarGamer

(12,301 posts)
25. My Moderna #2 sucked
Tue Jun 22, 2021, 07:10 PM
Jun 2021

1 day of flu like symptoms and 3 days of cold like symptoms.

But then it was done... I'm FREE!!

 

CrackityJones75

(2,403 posts)
28. I had a little issue with fatigue.
Tue Jun 22, 2021, 07:25 PM
Jun 2021

About 2 weeks after the shot I felt really tired and exhausted. But who knows that could have been allergies too.

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
32. The people that don't want to get vaxxed after having covid19
Tue Jun 22, 2021, 09:03 PM
Jun 2021

are typically people that were Covid deniers to start with. So, it is mostly political, IMO.

Wingus Dingus

(8,052 posts)
26. I'd still get vaccinated, because it's turning into something very different
Tue Jun 22, 2021, 07:19 PM
Jun 2021

(at least symptom and transmissibility-wise) than the version that infected people during 2020 and early 2021. I'd get a booster for those variants, or just for continued antibodies if needed, too.

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