Great recent quote by Bill Clinton about today's Republicans

[DFW]

From an interview in TIME:

"If somebody disagrees with you based on agreed set of facts, that's a debate in a healthy democracy. The new Republican right is brilliant at making everything into an us-vs.-them identity conflict. And so the only thing that matters is whose side you're on."

He has them pegged most accurately.

[Arkansas Granny]

1. Exactly. The are purposely dividing our country into us vs. them.

It's not about policy, it's identity politics.

[czarjak]

49. "It's not Obama, it's his policies"? Heard it several times.

[young_at_heart]

2. Us-vs-them mentality is very toxic

Dictators purposely use this strategy to gain power. It usually doesn't end well.

[Kid Berwyn]

3. The Republicans have made Democrats into the enemy.

That’s what Flush Limpnuts was all about.

[wnylib]

26. That's a characteristic of fascism,

the demonization of liberals, and the creation of "enemies" in order to unify people against "the other."

[DFW]

36. Nazi Luftwaffe boss Hermann Goering spelled it out exactly as his cabal saw it:

“Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war: neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But after all it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or fascist dictatorship, or a parliament or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peace makers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”

Let me repeat that last part:

"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peace makers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”

It most certainly does. Whether it's the Propagandaministerium of Göbbels or Fox "News" of Murdoch, or Stalin's NKVD, it DOES work the same in any country. Tell people that the Jews/Bolsheviks are coming to get them, tell people the Liberals are coming to get them, tell people the Capitalists are coming to get them, and the excuse for repressive policy is established. It doesn't matter what name you give the Bogey Man, as Göring noted.

My father-in-law WAS that "slob on a farm." He was not interested in risking his life in a war. He was drafted off his farm at age 17, and sent to Russia at age 18. He did NOT return in one piece. He returned from Stalingrad minus a leg at age 19. Now useless as a farmer, he then became a loan officer at a local bank, and helped postwar farmers get back on their feet after the war was over. He had no use for the Nazis before being drafted, and a whole lot less after he returned minus his leg. For McTurtle, of course, he would have counted as nothing further than collateral damage. Trump, I'm sure, would have merely said he had no respect for guys who got their legs blown off after being sent on some useless mission as cannon fodder, even if he was the one who sent them.

[wnylib]

40. Very good quote. Thanks.

So true that anyone can use the us vs. them division to motivate people to go to war, regardless of the type of government. Vietnam - Gulf of Tonkin. Iraq - Muslims, so they must have been behind 9/11 and developing WMD for a worse attack. Just two examples from my lifetime.

But, in my previous post, I was referring to how fascists gain leadership and control within their own country through bigotry, racism, and misogyny, turning fellow citizens against each other in peacetime before going to war.

Each society or system of government uses us vs. them divisions to motivate people to go to war. (I like Bob Dylan's critique of the Ametican method in his song, With God on Our Side.) But there are identifying traits in how specific ideological systems develop in a society. Soviets claimed equality for all from the left by demonizing ruling classes and religion. Fascists in Germany claimed national and racial superiority from the right by demonizing liberals, "deviants," and non-Aryans.

Who a society demonizes in us vs. them politics demonstrates which type of ideology it is, or is becoming.

[DFW]

42. What's defining about today's Republicans is that they hate EVERYBODY

If a Republican disagrees with something, then the hate him/her, too. It takes a special propaganda skill to get people who really don't have anything against others to despise them nonetheless.

People who supposedly are not devoid of the capacity for rational thought nonetheless buy dozens of firearms to be ready to protect their homes from an invasion by the Taliban. Never mind that the Taliban considers them odious infidels, and wouldn't think of setting foot on the same continent where these infidels hold sway.

[wnylib]

46. RE: Republicans hating everybody,

even their own, who disagrees with them. And buying weapons to fight a Taliban invasion.

Sounds like the paranoia of ultra conservatism. Anyone who isn't "like us" is a threat. Hitler purged the SA. Noone dared openly disagree with him as he consolidated and then held his power. He was known for his paranoia. (I like the depiction of his paranoia in the book and the film, War and Remembrance, by Herman Wouk.)

But, paranoia and purges also occur on the extreme left. Stalin's paranoia and purges, for example.

Whether left or right, dictators can't tolerate dissent and are constantly vigilant for anyone who differs with them. As I see it, although this is a generalization, right wing authoritarianism focuses on ethnicity/race, nationalism, gender identity, and uses religion to claim supernatural endorsement of their way. Left wing authoritarianism seems to focus more on ideology than physical or biological traits, enforcing sameness in the name of equality, and uses agressive opposition to religion to eliminate ideological or philosophical competition.

I am NOT saying that either religion or atheism is anti democratic. I am saying that both views can be used to promote political ideologies.

[SouthBayDem]

4. Couldn't find anything on Google for this quote

Link? Thanks

[DFW]

8. America must be too internet-obsessed

I didn‘t get this from the internet. I read it in the TIME double issue of June 21/June 28. Page 112.

Real life tangible printed pages. I‘m afraid the only link I can offer you is a trip to your local newsstand or library. If it‘s any help, I did quote from the interview word for word, so you can use the TIME issue and page as a reference. The article/interview (with co-author James Patterson) was by Tessa Berenson.

[Cyrano]

39. Couldn't agree more about the printed page, DFW

Sitting quietly and reading a book, or magazine, or newspaper is, in some way, much like a yoga exercise. To me, it's peaceful, relaxing and a lifelong habit that I can't imagine being without. I love the feel and the texture of books, and I even like the inconvenience of having to often lick my fingers in order to turn the page.

Although I check in and read online daily, it doesn't compare to holding and reading an actual book.

Seems that Ray Bradbury was onto something when he wrote "Fahrenheit 451." His vision of a dystopian world, where all books were destroyed, was almost as close to today's reality as Orwell's "1984."

[DFW]

41. I got my daughters pissed at me because of that

They gave me a Kindle as a Christmas present once so I could bring books galore with me wherever I went. I haven't used it once. I wouldn't even know how. I feel the same way as you about the printed page. I'm not against the internet being a vast source for finding stuff and finding stuff out, don't get me wrong. But it's a fact of life that there isn't a "link" to EVERYTHING. Not yet, anyway.

Ironically, I DID find a link to the Clinton article, but a Google search with the quote alone didn't suffice. You needed the source (TIME) and the interviewer's name to find the article.

[summer_in_TX]

53. I love technology, so my husband had the great idea of buying me a Kindle.

Luckily he told me his idea first. No way.

I like books, printed pages, being able to pass them on to others. I used to say you couldn't read in the bathtub with a Kindle (a former favorite way to linger over a book), but a meniscus tear converted me to taking showers in my 60s.

[DFW]

37. I looked, by the way, and there is a link. Here you go

https://time.com/6050417/bill-clinton-james-patterson-novel-interview/

[SouthBayDem]

43. Thanks

It appears that the original post overtly condensed Clinton's quote - should've included ellipses around the bolded parts (roughly).

First of all, you have to realize that you’re doing two things at once all the time if you’re somebody who wants to get back on track. You’re dealing with the facts at hand. If somebody disagrees with you based on an agreed set of facts where they would read it different than you did, that’s human nature. That’s a debate in a healthy democracy. Nobody’s right all the time and a broken clock’s right twice a day, and we live in the gray area between those two extremes. The second thing you have to realize is that somebody said, if the contest is between belonging and the facts, the facts will lose every time. And the new Republican right is brilliant at making everything into an us versus them identity conflict. And so the only thing that matters is whose side you’re on.

[BlueJac]

5. The Republicans are the party of no, no ideas and no shame!

Disgraceful!

[DFW]

10. They seem to enjoy the label, too

There is a funny musical video in the works about that. We‘re hoping it will be ready by the end of the month.

[niyad]

21. Please let us know when it is. Very much looking forward to it.

[Takket]

6. they make us fight the culture wars, the media falls for it, and we can't fix real issues

rinse and repeat. and it is only getting worse.

[DFW]

12. The media falling for it is the worst part

Journalists abdicating principal in favor of sensation is poison for the nation

[Staph]

7. "...on an agreed set of facts..."

There's the problem in a nutshell. Republicans have their own set of facts, alternative facts.

[Martin Eden]

52. We hold these truths to be self evident ...

... unfortunately, we don't.

[Mr. Ected]

9. The trick of the devil is to make today's Republicans believe

That the above quote by Bill Clinton applies equally to Democrats, adding justification to their intractability.

They only see what they want to see, facts be damned.

[DFW]

11. Facts are inconvenient to Republicans

So they treat facts as irrelevant

[uriel1972]

13. Not just inconvenient....

They are like salt to snails to them

[DFW]

15. Except that they don't shrivel and die when exposed

They look at a dog, claim to see a moose, and then call you blind for not seeing antlers.

[uriel1972]

17. Unfortunately I think you're right. Sigh

[Blue_true]

19. That is a pretty good saying that hits what they are about on the dot. nt

[7wo7rees]

28. Hi DFW. Read you made it back easily this time! You are spot on

in everything you have written in this post!

Enjoy the 4th, tell your bestest we said hi!

[DFW]

30. We did, thanks!

We drove out here in a blinding, driving rain storm, got attacked by the Cape Cod Air Force (10,000 mosquitoes), but survived, went food shopping, and are starting our down time.

I told my wife, as I do every year, that our time here will go by in an instant, but now, it's just our second day. As I have mentioned, I give all the people who work under me as much vacation time as they want/need, so this year, I'm making an exception, and taking for myself the same thing I'm giving everyone else. Lobsters and scallops of the western North Atlantic, be forewarned--I'm coming for you!

[7wo7rees]

35. ENJOY!! And Mangia, the whole stay!!

[DFW]

38. Tu sai che pensiamo fare precisamente questo!

And the whole stay, for sure!

[BootinUp]

14. He's always had a way of putting things

So that it hits between the eyes.

[jalan48]

16. "Identity Conflict" says it all. It's where politics is at these days.

[colsohlibgal]

18. Bubba's Dead On

We now have one Party mostly based on racism, anti Semitism, and hatred of the “”Other” whatever that is.....oh and raw power.

There are comfortably more of us than them. The Institutional set up though helps them and they have moved into high gear with some startling acts that scream Autocracy.

Game really on and moderate Dems need to know this.

Oh and there is the Supreme Court.....where McConnell has basically stolen seats. I despise him as much as I do Orange Hitler redux.

[DFW]

20. Unless we have a 1984 style of history revision

Moscow Mitch will go down as one of US history‘s most evil and destructive figures. I‘m worried that he is proud of it,

[dlk]

22. Remembering GW Bush's administration and the demand, "If you're not with us, you're against us."

Republicans have been at this game for awhile.

[Lithos]

25. Goes back to Newt and his Might is right

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/11/newt-gingrich-says-youre-welcome/570832/

He believes in metaphors of the male lion taking the kill that the Lionesses worked cooperatively to achieve as being evolutionary and worthy of emulation and admiration. Obviously a filter bubble to prove what he wants vs seeing what's really there.

The belief that politics is a zero-sum winner-take-all sport of predators and prey really entrenched itself in Washington with him. It's not what he can do for the country, but what he can wrangle from the country. The man has shown he has zero ethics and is a perpetual liar and the perfect role model for Trump to fill. His screams of corruption in the Democratic party are just extreme forms of whataboutism to cover his far deeper sins.

L-

[dlk]

34. Yes, indeed

[Lithos]

23. Very true - to add

The last CAFE insider with Preet Bharara had a man named Derek DelGaudio who said something similar, but with an added piece. Basically, Democrats are playing by a set of rules and a set of facts with the assumption the Republicans are doing similarly. But, the Republicans are not playing by rules and are using their knowledge that the Democrats will not cross the rules against them.

What I got from this - the Democrats should keep playing by rules, but should be prepared to change them whenever the Republicans are essentially cheating. This is where people like Manchin need to step up their game. It's ok to try to get the Republicans to play by the rules, but when they choose not to do so, then you should be prepared to change the rules to help entice them back to playing by the rules. Oh - you don't want to talk facts - but just go Republican vs Democrat - then we'll just deny you that opportunity. You accept the facts of reality and play by the rules, then we'll play too.

L-

[Evolve Dammit]

24. Us vs. them. It has taken hold. And they want a race war. Putin smiles. He knows it has manifested.

[GETPLANING]

27. And then Republicans decry "identity politics."

I have always said, projection is the first characteristic of conservatism.

[liberal N proud]

29. Exactly!

[WarGamer]

31. The most underappreciated POTUS of our time...

He's clearly top 10 material and should consistently be ranked ABOVE Reagan.

The 90's CLEARLY were a better decade than the 80's.

[Boomerproud]

32. I wish he spoke out more often and more forcefully

like someone else with the same last name.

[Hekate]

33. KnR

[RANDYWILDMAN]

44. Really all about Owning the Libs

Sad kinda proves how out of ideas the repubs really are...

[DFW]

54. It is why they resort to voter suppression

The alternative is coming up with ideas that appeal to more voters than our ideas do. Unable to accomplish that, they have no other option except cheating if they want to “win” elections.

[bucolic_frolic]

45. Clinton on the correct side of everything, but tone deaf for creating popular buzz words & phrases /

Surprised he never developed that talent.

[crickets]

47. There was one. Carville's "It's the economy, stupid." was great.

Dems really haven't come up with another really good one since that I can recall.

eta oops!

Almost forgot - Obama had "Yes, we can."

[JI7]

51. Becsuse that type of stuff mostly works on simple minded right wingers

Yes we can was more about just motivation of those that already supported you.

It's the economy refers more to an idea of what influences election outcomes than a phrase to appeal to the public .

[PAMod]

48. Great post; great thread n/t

[Skittles]

50. I remember when I could have healthy debates with the conservatives I know

but now - WTF, if you still support DONALD FUCKING TRUMP, I don't even want to KNOW you, let alone know what you think

[DFW]

55. You can always have a healthy debate with a genuine conservative

Trump supporters are not conservatives any more than Rocky Mountain Oysters are really oysters.

Just because they hijack the term doesn’t mean it actually applies. Labeling themselves as “conservative” is no more accurate than placing a “Vegan” label on a Porterhouse steak.

[Dukkha]

56. That's the only reason T**** got 70m votes

because the only thing worse than keeping a fascist brainless man-child dictator in power was crossing party lines and voting for a Democrat. They are so deeply entrenched in tribalism that anything that doesn't fit in their narrow minded views is seen as the enemy. Everything is politicize to the point where even simple common sense in preventing the spread of a deadly virus is rejected as "the liberal agenda".