Still OK to be an old time peacenik around here?

[Passenger]

[leftstreet]

1. Welcome

[lagomorph777]

2. You'll find plenty of company.

[tblue37]

3. K&R for visibility. nt

[berniesandersmittens]

4. Kick and Rec

[Solly Mack]

5. K&R

[nykym]

6. And both will eventually be replaced by

some guy sitting in an airconditioned bunker with a joystick

[Ferrets are Cool]

67. Roger Waters wrote a song

"The Bravery Of Being Out Of Range"

You have a natural tendency
To squeeze off a shot
You're good fun at parties
You wear the right masks
You're old but you still
Like a laugh in the locker room
You can't abide change
You're at home an the range
You opened your suitcase
Behind the old workings
To show off the magnum
You deafened the canyon
A comfort a friend
Only upstaged in the end
By the Uzi machine gun
Does the recoil remind you
Remind you of sex
Old man what the hell you gonna kill next
Old timer who you gonna kill next
I looked over Jordan and what did I see
Saw a U.S. Marine in a pile of debris
I swam in your pools
And lay under your palm trees
I looked in the eyes of the Indian
Who lay on the Federal Building steps
And through the range finder over the hill
I saw the frontline boys popping their pills
Sick of the mess they find
On their desert stage
And the bravery of being out of range
Yeah the question is vexed
Old man what the hell you gonna kill next
Old timer who you gonna kill next
Hey bartender over here
Two more shots
And two more beers
Sir turn up the TV sound
The war has started on the ground
Just love those laser guided bombs
They're really great
For righting wrongs
You hit the target
And win the game
From bars 3,000 miles away
3,000 miles away
We play the game
With the bravery of being out of range
We zap and maim
With the bravery of being out of range
We strafe the train
With the bravery of being out of range
We gained terrain
With the bravery of being out of range
With the bravery of being out of range
We play the game
With the bravery of being out of range

[panader0]

7. Oh yeah!

A quote from the last decent Republican:
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense,
a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."
Eisenhower

[voteearlyvoteoften]

8. War is not healthy

For children and other living things.

[ShazzieB]

31. Wow, that takes me back!

I used to have a button like this one.



It was also on posters, t-shirts, you name it. It was one of my favorite antiwar slogans during the Vietnam War era, along with "What if they gave a war and nobody came?"

[peacefreak2.0]

9. As one peacefreak to another,

Welcome!☮️✌️

[Jilly_in_VA]

10. It better be

Even though I have huge familial military connections, I resemble that remark!

[Evolve Dammit]

11. welcome to DU from a tree hugging, social justice seeking animal loving peacenik.

[KS Toronado]

12. $80,000 for a piece of equipment that size?

You could buy 3 nice SUVs for that much money. Kinda proves the Military Industrial Complex
is alive and well ripping the Pentagon off.

[Ford_Prefect]

26. The senior officers at Pentagon Purchasing Dept. are all in on the rip-off pricing.

It's a revolving door arrangement along with those in other divisions who believe in Christian empire building as the route to higher rank and financial security.

For the record a "nice" SUV starts around $50,000 for the base model. That's the one with room for a family of 4 to live in. The SUV models arose in response to Gulf War I and the vision of power seen in the original HUMVEE shown in combat news videos.

The Pentagon seems immune to the idea that they will ever spend less. They successfully removed the last president who seriously cut military funding, who looked closely at how much weapons systems cost, who called them out for their lack of candor about their relationship with weapons makers, and who had the audacity to assert that US diplomacy and domestic policies could do more for peace: Jimmy Carter.

[Unknown Beatle]

58. It's wrong.

The price isn't $80,000. It's actually $175,203, and that's for the missile only. The whole unit, the Javelin launchers, and one missile, cost the American taxpayer $206,705.

In 2002, the price of the missile alone was $78,000.

[House of Roberts]

13. It's an anti-tank weapon.

If they're firing it at a 'guy', they're wasting the round. How much does the tank it should be used to destroy cost in battlefield casualties if it isn't used properly?

[BannonsLiver]

15. And who operates enemy tanks?

Monkeys?

[House of Roberts]

17. Soldiers who, if not operating an enemy tank capable of killing our soldiers,

should not be the target of a Javelin missile system.

It's different for folks who are actually on the battlefield at risk. They don't care how much it costs, if it brings them and their comrades home safe. I'm sure the loved ones of our soldiers don't care either.

[Sucha NastyWoman]

19. If we didn't have "strategic interests" in other countries resources

Would we need anti-tank weapons?

[House of Roberts]

27. Why is that question relevant to this thread?

The question is whether or not, if YOU were the soldier on the battlefield facing an enemy TANK, would you rather have the Javelin weapon or not?

[jalan48]

39. This really gets to core of the problem. Some would rather focus on the symptom.

[EX500rider]

45. Yes we would

Likely adversaries like China, Russia, N Korea etc all have fleets of tanks.

[Blue_true]

50. Russia has a buttload of tanks, lots more than we have.

Fortunately, they are easier to take out.

[TomWilm]

61. Those tanks are far away over the Ocean ....

... and cannot even move fast across solid ground. Paper tigers...

[EX500rider]

65. We are allies with S Korea...and would be fighting to help them on the Korean peninsula

How fast they are is irrelevant, US troops on the ground would still need to knock them out.

I find the whole meme kind of silly, the weapon system you need to use to save US troops lives can't cost more then yours or the enemies yearly salary?? I doubt the troops would see it that way "Well we'd like to save your lives and knock out the tank platoon headed your way but the numbers just don't add up, sorry."

[TomWilm]

71. DPRK does not need to move a single tank ...

... their cannons are close enough to hit Seoul. And no US troops, with whatever expensive guns, could stop them firing. And then DPRK would lose that war, but that is another story. It is all stupid theatrics.

[McKim]

56. Yes!!!! We don't need to be over there!

Yes!!! We don't need to do this as a country. We could just be peaceful and stop it all. We could be like New Zealand and just take good care of our own people and ship aid abroad that might help others. But somehow it is "good for the economy" to always have an enemy. Right now it's China and Russia that are the Bogeymen. In 2000 it was Iraw, Afghanistan and Lybia. Who is next to keep the war machine running. Why just not have the army fixing up our hiking trains, national parks, schools, cultural institutions?

[EX500rider]

66. So no allies? Don't help if S Korea or Taiwan or NATO gets attacked?

Mutual defense does not work that way. Plus it would embolden Russia, China, N Korea, Iran etc to start more wars.

[zipplewrath]

69. A tool shed

I saw footage of a squad using a javelin to take out a tool shed (in which there was someone with an automatic weapon shooting at them). I asked a sergeant about that once. Why using an anti-tank weapon on a guy in a tool shed. His answer was illuminating. He said the goal wasn't just to take out the guy shooting. It was to destroy the shed so no one else could use it as a place to shoot at them.

That missile costs so much because it is designed to keep the guy shooting it alive so he can collect that pay check that is referenced. And it is designed to damage tanks that cost millions, so they can't shoot at the people firing the missile, or anyone else for that matter. The question isn't about the cost of weapon, or how much the people shooting at each other make in salary. The question is why are either of them shooting at each other.

[House of Roberts]

70. At least you get to the point I wanted to make.

It is designed to take out a four million dollar enemy tank, but if it takes out a tool shed being used lethally against our troops, and saves lives on our side, it is worth the expense. It costs a lot of money to train, equip, and maintain our troops, and we shouldn't squander them for any cost.

As to why we or an ally, are firing a Javelin missile, (think Ukraine, they bought $40 million of them) the decision has already been made, either by us or for us.

[lunatica]

14. Hi and welcome home!

[FailureToCommunicate]

51. +1 !

[Laffy Kat]

16. Hai! Welcome to DU!

[twodogsbarking]

18. World peace would be costly to arms suppliers.

Stock prices would suffer.

Peace.

[MiHale]

20. Welcome to DU...

From one old hippie to another…enjoy

[IronLionZion]

21. Yeah but it makes oil so cheap!

oh wait...

[AllaN01Bear]

22. welcome to the pack. just quite a few new someones in the fam.

ive been called a card carrying liberal and a communist pinko pig along the way , including libtard and a few other badges that i wear proudly.

[Maeve]

23. 50 recs should be you answer

[Maeve]

63. Recs now at 132--yup, you're ok!

[Notek]

24. Welcome!

I'm a peace loving, nature loving, gun hating, tree hugging old guy.

[Tree Lady]

25. Oh yes make love not war

I could go on a rampage on my feelings of the money spent on the military.

[traitorsgalore]

28. YES. $2.2 trillion for a 20-year war for profit is an insult to all humanity

Now, the MSM is constantly talking about The Taliban and how "they're advancing" like we're all supposed to be scared into supporting endless war profiteering.

[peppertree]

29. War: the greatest racket

I know of one guy - an 100%, certified genuine redneck who could barely put together a coherent sentence - who made millions selling thing-a-majigs to the military at around a 1000% markup.

My understanding is that he had a friend in congress - a good ol' boy Republican, of course - who got him his initial contracts.

He died not too long ago, and left his widow an oceanfront mansion (which she then sold, top-dollar).

Adventures in crony capitalism.

[struggle4progress]

30. Johnny's gone for a soldier

[struggle4progress]

32. Green fields of France

[onethatcares]

46. this should be played,

more than it ever has.

Thank you Struggle4progress. Thank you so much.

[struggle4progress]

33. The vacant chair

[struggle4progress]

34. I didn't raise my boy to be a soldier

[struggle4progress]

35. Soldier blue

[struggle4progress]

36. Ain't marching anymore

[struggle4progress]

37. Give me love

[struggle4progress]

38. Last night I had the strangest dream

[jalan48]

40. Fortunate Son--CCR

[slightlv]

41. I'm fighting anger mgmt issues since TFG,

but I still see and believe myself to be an old hippie... in fact, really, I still see myself as a flower child. I think I'm just going thru PTSD that won't be resolved until the guns start disappearing and TFG is in the grave.

[Bo Zarts]

42. Welcome! I flew combat missions in Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos .. that turrned me peacenik.

Watched Kissinger/Nixon's B-52 arc-light bombing missions in Cambodia and Laos from my un-armed electronic-counterwarfare reconnnaissance aircraft. We were flying radio intercept missions. Nixon and Kissinger were bombing areas that we were never snooping in, which means there were no VC, NVA (PAVN), Khmer Rouge, or Pathet Lao there. IMO, Kissenger and Nixon killed an unimaginable number of non-combatants. Don't get me started (of course I am, but I need to stop).

Came back home, spent some time flying military aircraft state-side (trying to stay out of trouble over my outspoken peacenik tendencies), got an early release from active duty .. two years early actually, a release from my flight school obligation, returned to college life with the beard and long hair, and wore my Vietnam fatigue shirt .. and heavier field jacket and really cool (but very warm) Navy leather flight jacket (I was Army but flew Navy aircraft in the 'nam) .. with all the necessary peace and anti-war patches.

I was VVAW, Vietnam Veterans Against the War, back when John Kerry was active. I was a campus anti-war activist at both Auburn and Georgia Tech, two hotbeds of Young Republicans. So, yes Passenger, you are very welcome here. You are among like-minded folks at DU.

[McKim]

57. Thank You for Your Service in The Peace Movement!

Dear Zarts, Thank you for your service in The Peace Movement. My dear brother in law never came home from Vietnam and we miss him every day of our lives! It has left a great empty space and we turned our grief into action against war these past 21 years. This is all we can do now to stop the next one!!!

[Heartstrings]

43. Welcome! nt

[onethatcares]

44. from my house to yours

Peace

Can we finally take a break from constant war and hostilities? I'm TIRED


candle: :

[peacebuzzard]

47. it sure is...

still hanging in there! been gone awhile trying to negotiate work with this pandemic which continues the wreck in this world

its tough!

[llmart]

48. Oh, this place is full of us peaceniks.

You have a lot of company. I still listen to all the music. I come from a family history on the paternal side where the men were all conscientious objectors. I was like a pariah after 9/11 because I openly refused to support going into Afghanistan, and when I was in D.C. on a vacation I took part in an anti-W war in Iraq protest.

So, hell yeah. You're in the right place.

[spanone]

49. ...

[OxQQme]

52. I was 16 when the Eisenhower Doctrine was approved.

>"President Dwight D. Eisenhower announced the Eisenhower Doctrine in January 1957, and Congress approved it in March of the same year. Under the Eisenhower Doctrine, a country could request American economic assistance and/or aid from U.S. military forces if it was being threatened by armed aggression from another state. Eisenhower singled out the Soviet threat in his doctrine by authorizing the commitment of U.S. forces “to secure and protect the territorial integrity and political independence of such nations, requesting such aid against overt armed aggression from any nation controlled by international communism.”<

Then I was 21, a Marine, when he warned of the military-industrial complex.

>"On January 17, 1961, Dwight D. Eisenhower ends his presidential term by warning the nation about the increasing power of the military-industrial complex.

His remarks, issued during a televised farewell address to the American people, were particularly significant since Ike had famously served the nation as military commander of the Allied forces during WWII. Eisenhower urged his successors to strike a balance between a strong national defense and diplomacy in dealing with the Soviet Union. He did not suggest arms reduction and in fact acknowledged that the bomb was an effective deterrent to nuclear war. However, cognizant that America’s peacetime defense policy had changed drastically since his military career, Eisenhower expressed concerns about the growing influence of what he termed the military-industrial complex."<

War! What is it good for?

[spike jones]

53. On this day, July 16, 1945 first atomic bomb tested. Peacenik Sir Joseph Rotblat

was the only scientist to leave the Manhattan Project when it became clear that Germany would not succeed in making the atomic bomb, and Japan was on the verge of being defeated without it being needed there.

[link:https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/peace/1995/rotblat/facts/|

[VGNonly]

54. Teach Your Children Well

[link:

|

[niyad]

55. KNR and welcome

[MustLoveBeagles]

59. Welcome to DU

[burrowowl]

60. Welcome to DU!

[Withywindle]

62. Of course

I was a small child in the Vietnam era but I learned this from my parents (who were in their 20s and against the war):

The US is a superpower that has not really had to defend itself since WWII. My grandfather fought in that. Every war the US has been in since then was a war of aggression. Including stealth wars via the CIA. My mother is from Brazil, and she fled the CIA-backed military dictatorship in the 60s. The US has been a huge factor in propping up right wing regimes in Central and South America, the Middle East, Africa and Asia in my lifetime.

I want all of this to stop.

I also want peace in my own country, but we can't ignore there is an undercurrent of violent fascism that is rising again. I want to be a peacenik but I'm also afraid, and as a Latina and LGBTQ person, I honestly do kind of think I want to arm myself to defend myself.

[DownriverDem]

64. Yes!

I'm sick of some folks thinking Boomers are repubs too. I have been a Dem my whole life.

[Passenger]

68. I am heartened by the big response.

Hope for the world after all maybe?

Thanks.

[SYFROYH]

72. Sure, but the guy launching the Javelin is probably glad...

... that he doesn’t have to run up to the tank and stuff a grenade down the barrel instead.