Should hospitals be allowed to turn away patients based on race, creed, suspected gayness...

[Hekate]

… being trans, or in the case of women, suspicion her claimed miscarriage might instead be a botched abortion?

Because, people, this is where you are going when you demand hospitals turn away the suspected unvaccinated.

Would really like your thoughts.

[Iggo]

1. Rec.

[hlthe2b]

2. I treid to make that point earlier. We have to fight our rage and justified resentment.

It helps no one. The ultimate enemy is a virus...

[Eliot Rosewater]

3. i dont know about this "slope" but it makes no sense to turn them away if they are

at the point that they are sick and seeking help, if turned away they will just do more harm, infect more people.

[elleng]

4. No, and they are NOT the same things.

[Aristus]

5. Race, creed, gayness, and abortions are not infectious.

And the first three are not chosen characteristics.

Just as one can choose not to get vaccinated, one can also choose to get vaccinated. And if one wants admittance into the presence of human beings who don't want to die of COVID-19, making the choice sooner rather than later is a good idea.

[lagomorph777]

19. Exactly. If you are unvaccinated, you are voluntarily a danger to staff and patients.

Same thing if you were waving a gun.

[Devil Child]

6. Thank you Hekate

[NNadir]

7. People do stupid things all the time that result in medical tragedy.

Smoking is the one that immediately comes to mind; as it killed my father. Of course, although his manner of death was his own fault, we very much wanted the best medical care, and we wanted it covered.

With the many burdens on our health professionals, we should not ask them to also add the burden of making these kinds of decisions.

The "punishment" for the antivax stupidity is the disease itself.

[CrispyQ]

8. Great answer. -nt

[Maru Kitteh]

68. How many medical professionals did your father ask to die because of

his smoking? How many of those professional's family members did he ask to risk their lives and health due to his smoking?

[NNadir]

72. My father was treated with 5-FU, a known carcinogen itself...

...and frankly, any nurse or pharmacy tech preparing IVs certainly faced risks, if you're trying to make a weak argument that unvaccinated people pose a risk to health officials.

There are many other risks faced by medical professionals treating cancer, radiation, exposure to VRE, MRSA, etc.,.. and then there's cost. It cost my father's insurers, and his estate, close to $300,000 to die.

My father's death involved eating up medical resources that could have been used in a thousand better ways.

Your point is what?

Of course, now, in the case of Covid-19, most medical professionals, competent and wise ones any way, have been vaccinated, so in this case, the risk is extraordinarily low, roughly equivalent, I would guess, to the lifetime risk of someone preparing 5-FU solutions faces as an occupational hazard.

I don't think that stupidity should be a death sentence, and I don't think that we should kick people into streets to die because they watch too much Fox News.

We have anti-nuclear people here who may die from air pollution? Should we have to fill out a survey about our life choices before seeking medical care?

Should we ask doctors and nurses to conduct these surveys and making judgements on top of everything. Call ethicists at midnight before giving a sick person oxygen?

Should we ask people being treated with anti-infectives that fail, protease inhibitors, antibiotics, if they missed doses and led to resistant strains of viruses and/or antibiotics in order to decide to treat them?

What exactly do you want?

[Haggard Celine]

9. People are saying hospitals should turn away the unvaccinated?

That's a foolish thing to say. I know that many of us are annoyed by the people who won't get vaccinated, but we can't have hospitals turning away sick people. Reminds me of the 1980s, when some wanted to turn away AIDS patients. Hospitals exist to tend the sick, even if those sick people are obnoxious and even if some think that they brought their disease on themselves. If you don't want to be around sick people, don't visit or work at a hospital.

[Hekate]

51. At last, someone with a memory. I was thinking both of the early AIDS crisis & the pre-Civil Rights

… era, in which it was well-known that there were “white” hospitals that would not admit a laboring woman or someone bleeding out if they happened to be black.

In the opening acts of the AIDS epidemics, there was a certain amount of fear bordering on hysteria regarding medical care. A gay man getting surgery? It was a dicey situation.

In addition, gods forbid a woman with a fever and a bloody discharge darken their doors because (gasp) abortion/slut/ call the cops.

NO ONE IN NEED SHOULD EVER BE TURNED AWAY.

[Goodheart]

10. Your analogies make no sense.

Somebody's race can't infect other patients.
Somebody's creed can't infect other patients,
Somebody's gayness can't infect other patients.
Somebody's botched abortion can't infect other patients.

Somebody's failure to vaccinate CAN infect other patients.

How in the world did you think those conditions should all be treated the same?

[modrepub]

13. Great Points

[lagomorph777]

20. Somebody's refusal to vaccinate is a voluntary choice.

Unlike most of the other analogies.

[SharonClark]

32. Thank you.

[Hekate]

62. See above

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100215649885#post51

[Goodheart]

74. Oh, I happen to agree that the unvaccinated right now should not be turned away, BUT

that doesn't rescue your poor analogies. And because they're so poor your post appears more motivated by cheap political melodrama than by actual care for the unvaccinated.

[BannonsLiver]

11. +100000

The other thread and responses were really gross.

[PortTack]

12. NO! As a medical professional..absolutely not

[Hekate]

14. There is solid precedent, btw, in the "conscience clauses" demanded by the Evangelicals ...

… and inserted during Dubya’s administration. All you have to do is follow it to a logical conclusion. There are plenty of people in this country who believe everything I listed is a personal choice and it offends them so much they’re just fine if people suffer and die for it.

AND I READ ITERATIONS OF THAT EVERY DAY AT DU

[Tomconroy]

15. Hospitals are there to treat sick people.

If I drive drunk and get injured I shouldn't be admitted?

[Hekate]

46. I would certainly hope so.

[Hekate]

48. Ah, grammar can kill ya if you're not careful. I AGREED with you.

[Tomconroy]

50. Sorry

[Hekate]

58. 's okay

[Crunchy Frog]

16. I would guess that most people saying that are just venting, because many of us

are really enraged at the fact that a significant portion of the population, mostly FOX viewing Trumpers/Qanon, are making the choice to keep the pandemic in this country going, and essentially holding the rest of the country hostage. And then they get sick because of their choice, and end up costing a huge amount in money and especially in the time and energy of medical workers who are already quitting in large number due to burn out from the previous waves of infection.

So no, I don't believe that they should be denied treatment, or turned away from hospitals, and I doubt that very many people on here genuinely think they should. However, I might express that sentiment on some posts, just because of how angry I am at their shenanigans.

Edit: This is the sort of thing that makes many of us so angry.

Link to tweet

?s=20

[smirkymonkey]

67. This is the kind of thing that pisses me off beyond belief.

I am only sorry that he survived. Sorry, I know that's harsh, but it's idiots like this that keep this virus circulating because of thier own ignorance and stupidity.

Also, there is such a thing as triage, and if things start getting bad enough where beds and care need to be rationed, people like him and the willfully unvaccinated should not be getting treatment over others who need urgent care due to accidents/diseases that are no fault of their own. They should be last on the list when it comes to priority treatment.

[MineralMan]

17. Never. It should be the law that they cannot discriminate

in any those ways or in other ways based on any similar factors. Period. There should be very serious criminal penalties for violating such a law, as well. If you're sick enough to need hospitalization, you should be admitted, regardless of such things.

[Celerity]

69. +10000000000000000

[lagomorph777]

18. Bullshit.

[Meowmee]

21. Of course not

And in addition community and other hospitals I believe have to treat people in an emergency regardless of their ability to pay etc.

But if it gets severe people could be turned away as we saw in Italy/ India etc. and some were not given life saving treatments. There were law suits over this in Italy. It is happening in Africa and elsewhere now as well I think due to lack of supplies.

Early on people were not getting optimal care by any means in my area. Treatment etc. was only at the field hospital for covid symptoms etc. to try and keep them away from the hospital and you were told don’t come back to fh or to er unless you’re near death essentially. No real treatments were offered to those enduring it at home.

[Hekate]

22. Self kick

Because

[xmas74]

23. Turn away the unvaccinated? No.

Give the minimum amount of treatment and send on their merry way? Maybe.

[Demovictory9]

24. yikes... are DUers suggesting the unvaxxed get turned away?

[Hekate]

31. Yes: it's been intermittent but vengeful, with pile-ons. I Object....

… for a whole lot of reasons.

[SharonClark]

33. They're just venting.

[hunter]

25. My wife is a medical professional.

She's always treated anyone who shows up on her service with the highest standard of care, including some of the most horrible people you can imagine -- gangsters with teardrop tattoos, violent neo-nazis, child molesters...

Infected anti-vaxxers are small fry. They go to the quarantine floors where they receive excellent care.

[Patterson]

26. Are we going to turn away:

Fat people, smokers, STD patients, sky divers, unmarried mothers, etc?

[Hekate]

45. My brother, who died last year of COPD, started smoking by age 13. Some people are so judgmental...

…that they would have denied him his place in the ICU that gave him 6 more months of life at home. He was 72 — but hey, “he chose to smoke.”

So in case it’s not abundantly clear yet, I agree with you that no one should be turned away.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

27. Public health is not a weapon to punish people we don't like.

[Hekate]

38. TY, WhiskeyGrinder, for being among the few who are getting my point

[Devil Child]

64. +1 WhiskeyGrinder, Best sentence in this entire thread!

[roamer65]

28. As a highly communicable disease threat, they should go to separate COVID facilities.

Last edited Thu Jul 22, 2021, 09:15 PM - Edit history (1)

They should NOT be in the same buildings as uninfected or immunocompromised persons. They WILL infect them.

The viral load of a Delta variant infectee is around 1260 times that of the original strain.

We wouldn’t have an Ebola or SARS-CoV-1 infectee in the same facilities, either.

[Tomconroy]

49. You are spreading medical misinformation. Please stop.

[roamer65]

52. In your opinion.

[Tomconroy]

53. Give me a source.

[roamer65]

54. ...

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/health/why-delta-covid-variant-is-spreading-rapidly-286783

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/21/health/delta-variant-covid-19-explainer/index.html

https://www.koco.com/article/why-isdelta-variant-spreading-faster-than-other-strains-of-covid-19/37095936

[Tomconroy]

57. Well I guess that's sort of a source. Now what exactly does that mean?

[roamer65]

59. ...

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/07/08/1013794996/why-the-delta-variant-is-so-contagious-a-new-study-sheds-light

Read.

[Tomconroy]

60. I read it but your thesis is still crap. Vaccines protect against the Delta virus..

Six foot spacing in a medical facility will protect against the virus. And everyone in a hospital is required to wear masks.
PS: you did get me on that 1250 thing.

[roamer65]

61. No read again. They specifically stated that 6 ft will not work with Delta in one of the articles.

...and not everyone in a hospital is fully protected via vaccine. Many cancer patients are immunocompromised.

Increased viral shedding means you fill a room a LOT faster with it.

[Tomconroy]

63. I did read it again. I guess you are referring to an

Off hand quote from somebody in the CNN article. Even if that were true a separate room in the hospital would be all that you would need at most.

[Ms. Toad]

76. Have you missed all of the studies on aerosolized transmission?

It's been known for months (and the CDC finally acknowledged) that COVID is transmitted by aerosolized matter. 6ft was based on an incorrect assumption of droplet transmission. Transmission can occur by aerosolized matter off much greater distances, and even after the infected person has left the room, since aerosolized matter lingers in the air.

Transmission of SARS-CoV-2 from inhalation of virus in the air farther than six feet from an infectious source can occur
With increasing distance from the source, the role of inhalation likewise increases. Although infections through inhalation at distances greater than six feet from an infectious source are less likely than at closer distances, the phenomenon has been repeatedly documented under certain preventable circumstances.10-21 These transmission events have involved the presence of an infectious person exhaling virus indoors for an extended time (more than 15 minutes and in some cases hours) leading to virus concentrations in the air space sufficient to transmit infections to people more than 6 feet away, and in some cases to people who have passed through that space soon after the infectious person left. Per published reports, factors that increase the risk of SARS-CoV-2 infection under these circumstances include:

Enclosed spaces with inadequate ventilation or air handling within which the concentration of exhaled respiratory fluids, especially very fine droplets and aerosol particles, can build-up in the air space.
Increased exhalation of respiratory fluids if the infectious person is engaged in physical exertion or raises their voice (e.g., exercising, shouting, singing).
Prolonged exposure to these conditions, typically more than 15 minutes

.

I thin it is safe to say that a hospital stay is longer than 15 minutes.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/sars-cov-2-transmission.html

[Tomconroy]

78. And that's why everyone in a hospital wears a mask. Problem solved.

[Ms. Toad]

79. Still not acknowledging that you are wrong about 6'?

And unless you insist that all hospitalized individuals be fed via a feeding tube, it's more than 15 minutes for a single meal, let alone all of the meals during the stay.

I am not advocating separate facilities, by the way merely correcting your way out-of-date understanding that 6' distancing is protective.

[SharonClark]

34. I'll join you in trashing it.

[XanaDUer2]

30. Even idiots deserve quality Healthcare nt

[Dirty Socialist]

65. +1. Nt

[JI7]

35. No, not the same thing at all

[LanternWaste]

36. Which point on your list infects others?

As that is the precise and relevant difference between the one and the other.





Look, I scoff at turning them away as well... but that doesn't give us an excuse to engage in lazy thinking simply to make a sanctimonious point.

And beyond that, no one on DU (despite the weak and ineffectual name-dropping we occasionally see when someone wants attention) has the tools or the agency to affect policy. Visceral reactions to the stupidity of others should not be confused with actual policy positions, any more than hearing my girlfriend say "I'm going to kill you if you keep that up..." is an actual threat of her immediate action.

C'mon, man. You know better.

[Hekate]

37. Read all my comments in this thread and you will understand my point, loud and clear

PS — as Eowyn said: “I am no man”

[Sympthsical]

39. Once someone finds one excuse to deny health care

Other excuses will follow.

And you may not like those other excuses.

I'd like to see this when an OD rolls into the ER. "Well, they made their choice!"

The compassion just oozes.

Wait, no. That's not compassion that's oozing.

[meadowlander]

40. Walking away from anyone who need medical assistance violates the Hippocratic Oath.

[Hekate]

42. Yet right here at DU we have members demanding that doctors & hospitals do just that

I am sick of it

[Treefrog]

66. You're not alone.

[SoonerPride]

41. Can they deny treatment on religious grounds?

I think that already is happening to my LGBTQ community

[Hekate]

43. Those of us in the pro-choice community KNOW they can

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100215649885#post14

[SoonerPride]

44. So yeah. They're already denying medical services

And if I were a doctor I’d say my religion precludes me from helping unvaccinated idiots.

They can go visit trump and ask him to heal them.

[USALiberal]

80. Are you still not wearing a mask? Nt

[SoonerPride]

81. I am vaccinated.

I am not worried about it.

[USALiberal]

82. Lol, Things have change a little bit since you were pushing that.

[SoonerPride]

86. Changed? like what? Breakthough cases are still rare.

Did you not read that I am vaccinated?

That's what the vaccination was for. To return to living. It is not and never was a 100% foolproof shield. I understand that and have no fear of Covid SINCE I AM VACCINATED.

I am healthy and my immune system is fine.

If I did catch Covid I would either be asymptomatic or have mild cold-like symptoms.

I have no comorbidities.

The CDC's guidance is for vaccinated persons to wear a mask while traveling:
For now, if you’ve been fully vaccinated:

You will still need to follow guidance at your workplace and local businesses.
If you travel, you should still take steps to protect yourself and others.
Wearing a mask over your nose and mouth is required on planes, buses, trains, and other forms of public transportation traveling into, within, or out of the United States and while indoors at U.S. transportation hubs such as airports and stations. Travelers are not required to wear a mask in outdoor areas of a conveyance (like on open deck areas of a ferry or the uncovered top deck of a bus).

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/fully-vaccinated.html?s_cid=11406:cdc%20rules%20for%20fully%20vaccinated:sem.ga:p:RG:GM:gen TN:FY21

Until such time as the CDC changes their guidance, I feel zero need to wear a mask in social situations.

Thanks, though, for your concern.

[USALiberal]

89. So you're still not going to wear a mask??

[Skittles]

55. I agree with your assessment

it is especially disturbing to read on a progressive board

[Hekate]

56. Thank you, Skittles

[Celerity]

70. I absolutely agree as well.

[Crunchy Frog]

71. Another perspective on this. Nurses getting abused and threatened by covidiots.

Nurses quitting due to "compassion fatigue" when dealing with those who are sick by choice. There is absolutely no other comparable situation in this country's history that I know of.

The surreal lives of Arkansas nurses fighting Covid-19 inside the hospital and denial on the outside

Video is called: Nurse explains why she doesn't like the term 'healthcare hero'

"Nurses were really the symbol for this pandemic and all of the hate was centered around us -- the hate, the fear, the respect, all of it," Sunny said. A lot of nurses have PTSD from 2020, she said, "And now we're having people come in and look us in the face and be like, 'No I didn't get the vaccine, and now I'm sick."

No, I'm not suggesting that patients should be turned away, but when people see or hear about this kind of shit, I find the sentiment to be understandable. And if too many healthcare workers quit because of burnout or compassion fatigue, or just sick of the bullshit, it's a guarantee that patients WILL be turned away, though it probably won't be the ones who deserve it.

[Jim G.]

73. Don't Turn them Away - Charge Them Or Their Insurance Co. For Treatment Though

Why should taxpayers foot the bill for stupidity?

I don't think insurance co.s would being very happy having to foot the bill for them either & would make changes to quit paying for unvaccinated policy holders treatment as well.

[SKKY]

75. Of course not. How is this even a discussion?

Who is suggesting hospitals turn away the unvaccinated? Every hospital, including the one I work in, have protocols for stuff like this.

[Hekate]

88. As I mentioned earlier, DUers. Very, very angry DUers with vengeful thoughts. Okay, not all...

… or I would be gone. But it has happened frequently enough of late, as frustration grows, that I finally had to say something. And if you read through this thread, you will see some of the vengeful have shown up. Others simply completely misunderstood my point and think I’m an idiot tossing around false equivalencies. A few have gotten my point straight off — you start letting communities decide who they will not treat, for whatever random reason, and you end up back in the Bad Old Days.

[ismnotwasm]

77. First, no it isn't where we are going.It's not the same thing

Second, these kind of discussions are exhausting

Signed

An RN who has being dealing with Covid for well over a year now. I’m tired.

[Wingus Dingus]

83. They should be turned away once the designated covid areas are full.

And shipped to the next closest Covid facility with an opening.

[RobinA]

84. Hospitals Should

not be turning anyone away except in very, and I do mean VERY, select circumstances. I had a client years ago who insisted on smoking in the hospital. She was on oxygen for obvious reasons. They could NOT get her to stop trying to smoke in the hospital and she had the fire alarms going off regularly. They finally discharged her and told her not to come back. She wasn't acutely ill. But she was so dangerous she could not safely be in the hospital. This I didn't have a problem with because she could foreseeably have caused a catastrophe. If hospitals only admitted people who were ill by happenstance they'd be a lot emptier. Hell I was in an ER one late night after having broken my arm ice skating and the place was jammed. Everybody but me and one elderly lady was drunk. Injured from their drunkeness. Should they not have been treated?

[Hekate]

85. WhiskeyGrinder put it most succinctly: Public health is not a weapon to punish people we don't like

Public health is not a weapon to punish people we don't like.

[Caliman73]

87. I don't think it is where we are headed.

I don't think that hospitals should turn anyone away, ever. Hospitals are there to take care of people in emergencies, period. It doesn't matter whether you got shot, or shot yourself, on purpose or by negligence. It doesn't matter if you are a cop, or a cop killer. Hospitals exist to treat people who need medical attention.

That being said, you cannot treat distinctions of skin, color, sex and gender, sexual orientation... etc... the same as behavior. If you come into the hospital suffering from a highly infectious disease, you are isolated from others. If you are disruptive and aggressive, you may be restrained or even turned away if staff cannot subdue you. Choosing to be vaccinated or not, is a choice for most people. There are those who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons, which is not a choice. I do not think that they should be turned away. They are in genuine medical emergency, just like the hand glider enthusiast or parachutist who breaks their legs in an accident. All three engaged in willful risky behavior, or the gang member who gets shot by a rival gang. We should not pick and choose who lives or dies.

It doesn't have anything to do with the person's status. It has to do with duty to treat the sick and injured.

By the way, people are already discriminated against with regards to being transgender or people seeking abortion care. They are regularly discriminated against by private, religiously affiliated hospitals.