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AndyS

(14,559 posts)
Mon Aug 9, 2021, 11:24 AM Aug 2021

More detail on the Mexican Government vs US gunmakers lawsuit.

Last edited Mon Aug 9, 2021, 08:17 PM - Edit history (1)

It is a long shot in the courts but there's more at stake than just the gun lawsuit. It's also a diplomatic issue.

Mexico has very strict gun control and issues perhaps 50 permits to purchase a year. The lawsuit alleges more than 200,000 illegal guns have been sold into the country and that US gun makers are tailoring their marketing to drug cartels. Funny how that marketing thing keeps cropping up isn't it? As evidence of the intentional marketing to cartels the Mexican Government cites the limited edition Emiliano Zapata gold plated .38 1911 inscribed with Zapata's quote "It's better to die standing than to live on your knees." The gun is a status symbol among cartel leaders. Detractors claim Mexico is part of the problem being the largest importer of US guns for police and military use and having lax controls on them. Seems Mexico 'lost' about 1,700 guns over two years. 1,700 vs 200,000? Looks like a red herring to me.

As an example of US guns used by cartels an assassination attempt on a Mexico City police chief included: three Barrett .50 caliber sniper rifles*, a Smith & Wesson 9mm pistol and 5.56mm caliber carbine, a Ruger 5.56mm caliber rifle and a Colt 5.56mm caliber carbine. All traceable to the US. In fact up to 90% of recovered crime guns are from the US.

Mexico is seeking $10 billion in damages for economic loss but the stakes are higher. The suit is used as leverage against the DEA and the US war on drugs. As pressure is put on the Mexican Government to stop the flow of drugs into the US, Mexico is responding with pressure to stop the gun flow into their country. Sounds reasonable to me.

This is from an NPR article. Not that long but doesn't lend itself to cut-n-paste. It is well worth the read.

https://www.npr.org/2021/08/07/1025636092/mexico-lawsuit-united-states-gun-companies-analysis

*The Barret .50 cal sniper rifle fires a bullet about the size of an adult thumb at speeds approaching 4000 feet per second. It's accuracy is measured in miles but the real attraction is that it will penetrate most armored vehicles, brick walls, any vehicle's engine block and is an 'if you can see it you can kill it' kind of gun. If you can pass a background check you can buy one from any licensed gun dealer over the counter. I ask again, What the fuck is wrong with us?

edit: I will no longer respond to any reply to this post. The gunners are trying for another lock and I won't give it to them.

33 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
More detail on the Mexican Government vs US gunmakers lawsuit. (Original Post) AndyS Aug 2021 OP
Thanks for this informative and interesting post! CaliforniaPeggy Aug 2021 #1
What the fuck is wrong with us? HAB911 Aug 2021 #2
Kick! CaliforniaPeggy Aug 2021 #3
"In fact up to 90% of recovered crime guns are from the US." Not really EX500rider Aug 2021 #4
Thanks for gun'splaining that to us. AndyS Aug 2021 #5
I didn't realize accurate facts were gun explaining EX500rider Aug 2021 #6
No, but I believe we are the major culprit. AndyS Aug 2021 #7
Lots of choices EX500rider Aug 2021 #9
The Mexican military is a major source of cartel guns NickB79 Aug 2021 #11
And what % of the cartel guns etc are from the Mexican military? AndyS Aug 2021 #12
This message was self-deleted by its author NickB79 Aug 2021 #18
This is an excellent read regarding that NickB79 Aug 2021 #20
Excellent article and it points out some glaring issues with gun sales to Mexico. AndyS Aug 2021 #27
Zapata is an effing hero. SYFROYH Aug 2021 #8
Congratulations! You've won a free cup of coffee at Starbucks! AndyS Aug 2021 #13
And why can't the advertising be aimed at American citizen Latinos EX500rider Aug 2021 #15
'Cause they're not and any idiot would know that. AndyS Aug 2021 #24
Are you somehow assuming that Zapata is not popular with Latinos north of the border EX500rider Aug 2021 #26
Uh, no but I am assuming that the marketing is aimed at the drug cartels in Mexico as the AndyS Aug 2021 #28
Maybe you should check who posted that cuz it wasn't me EX500rider Aug 2021 #29
I doubt it EX500rider Aug 2021 #30
More than a few Haitian police guns malaise Aug 2021 #10
Yeah, the borders are pretty porous for high demand commodities. AndyS Aug 2021 #14
Sounds like Mexico should search vehicles entering their country a little better EX500rider Aug 2021 #16
Nothing like a little victim shaming. nt AndyS Aug 2021 #17
Mexico is a victim of their own citizens EX500rider Aug 2021 #19
So you're gonna double down on that? Thank you for posting and letting AndyS Aug 2021 #21
Based in reality I assume you mean? EX500rider Aug 2021 #22
So you blame the Mexicans. OK. Thanks for posting.nt AndyS Aug 2021 #23
You mean blame the Mexicans for violence caused by Mexicans EX500rider Aug 2021 #25
This won't be popular but this could be curtailed if we and Mexico had better control of our border ripcord Aug 2021 #31
Exactly, if Mexico is worried about contraband entering their country... EX500rider Aug 2021 #33
"The gunners are trying for another lock and I won't give it to them." EX500rider Aug 2021 #32

CaliforniaPeggy

(149,620 posts)
1. Thanks for this informative and interesting post!
Mon Aug 9, 2021, 11:33 AM
Aug 2021

I really think the heart of your piece is here:

Mexico is seeking $10 billion in damages for economic loss but the stakes are higher. The suit is used as leverage against the DEA and the US war on drugs. As pressure is put on the Mexican Government to stop the flow of drugs into the US, Mexico is responding with pressure to stop the gun flow into their country. Sounds reasonable to me.


And as for your question What the fuck is wrong with us? I only have a smartass answer. Where do I start?

EX500rider

(10,848 posts)
4. "In fact up to 90% of recovered crime guns are from the US." Not really
Mon Aug 9, 2021, 01:34 PM
Aug 2021

That has been misquoted for years now.
90% of Weapons the Mexican's have asked the US to trace came from the US but that's because they ask us to trace US made weapons. That is about 36% of weapons they recovered.

https://www.factcheck.org/2009/04/counting-mexicos-guns/

EX500rider

(10,848 posts)
6. I didn't realize accurate facts were gun explaining
Mon Aug 9, 2021, 03:23 PM
Aug 2021

Are you under the impression that US is the only country in the world that produces firearms?

AndyS

(14,559 posts)
7. No, but I believe we are the major culprit.
Mon Aug 9, 2021, 04:06 PM
Aug 2021

There are some Chinese suppliers of AK-47s but the 5.56 is the choice.

So, the Mexican government only ask for help identifying 36% of crime guns, 90% of which are US guns. How many others had no serial number or had the number obliterated? Ghost guns have become big business in the last few years 'cause no gun trafficker wants the guns traced back to them. In California a third of crime guns recovered are Ghost guns (police records as of 2019).

You seem knowledgeable, so can you help fill out where the other 64% of the Mexican guns came from?

EX500rider

(10,848 posts)
9. Lots of choices
Mon Aug 9, 2021, 06:19 PM
Aug 2021

Norinco (China)
Fabbrica d'Armi Pietro Beretta S.p.A. (Italy)
FN HERSTAL (Belgium)
Heckler & Koch GmbH (Germany)
Taurus International Manufacturing, Inc. (Brazil)
Kalashnikov (Russia)
Thales Group (France)
Etc

NickB79

(19,243 posts)
11. The Mexican military is a major source of cartel guns
Mon Aug 9, 2021, 06:34 PM
Aug 2021

You think the cartels are getting grenades, heavy machine guns and rocket launchers from the US gun stores?

Either by threat or bribery, a steady stream of guns leaves Mexican military stockpiles thru Mexican military personnel

AndyS

(14,559 posts)
12. And what % of the cartel guns etc are from the Mexican military?
Mon Aug 9, 2021, 06:44 PM
Aug 2021

I mean, you seem to think accurate %s are important so what is that number? We already know that more than a third of Mexican crime guns are US because you pointed that out. So what number has been traced to the Mexican Military?

Could it be that some of those heavy arms are Chinese? I dunno, do you?

Inquiring minds, ya' know.

Response to AndyS (Reply #12)

NickB79

(19,243 posts)
20. This is an excellent read regarding that
Mon Aug 9, 2021, 07:20 PM
Aug 2021

It discusses how legal US arms exports go from military and police to the streets, or used by paramilitary groups in atrocities.

https://theintercept.com/2018/04/26/mexico-arms-trade-us-gun-sales/

AndyS

(14,559 posts)
27. Excellent article and it points out some glaring issues with gun sales to Mexico.
Mon Aug 9, 2021, 07:49 PM
Aug 2021

The only number germane to illegal guns entering the crime market is the 20,000 cited as missing. That's a sizeable number at 10% of the guns (200,000) cited in the Mexican lawsuit.

Great article, I recommend it for basic information on this aspect of the gun trafficking.

AndyS

(14,559 posts)
13. Congratulations! You've won a free cup of coffee at Starbucks!
Mon Aug 9, 2021, 06:51 PM
Aug 2021

Just add $10 handling fees.

In other words exactly what does that have to do with an active marketing campaign to drug cartel leaders who covet a gold plated reproduction of his gun?

Bring something useful to the conversation, okay.

AndyS

(14,559 posts)
24. 'Cause they're not and any idiot would know that.
Mon Aug 9, 2021, 07:35 PM
Aug 2021

A gold plated limited edition reproduction? Yeah, US Latinos are definitely the market.

AndyS

(14,559 posts)
28. Uh, no but I am assuming that the marketing is aimed at the drug cartels in Mexico as the
Mon Aug 9, 2021, 07:55 PM
Aug 2021

Mexican government alleges. I mean, really? A gold plated limited edition reproduction seen as a status symbol among cartel leaders is actually just an outreach to US Latinos?

If you really believe that I have a 1/4 acre lot in Kansas for sale. Ocean front. On two oceans. A bit of a walk to the beach but what the hell, two oceans!

When are you going to fill in the blank on the % of guns going to cartels from the Mexican military? Only crickets so far.

EX500rider

(10,848 posts)
29. Maybe you should check who posted that cuz it wasn't me
Mon Aug 9, 2021, 08:27 PM
Aug 2021

But it is well known that the heavy weapons and automatic weapons do come from deserters or stolen from armories in Mexico

EX500rider

(10,848 posts)
30. I doubt it
Tue Aug 10, 2021, 01:47 PM
Aug 2021

Is it more likely a corporate focus group sat around and said how can we capture a bigger share of the US Latino market or more likely they sat around and said how can we capture the foreign Mexican drug lord market who can't legally buy US firearms?
If the drug lords all drove Escalades that wouldn't prove GM aimed the product at them either.
And regardless, if they couldn't buy that specific weapon is it more likely they would go unarmed or quit and get a real job or would they just carry a Glock or a H&K etc in which case what difference does it make?

AndyS

(14,559 posts)
14. Yeah, the borders are pretty porous for high demand commodities.
Mon Aug 9, 2021, 06:53 PM
Aug 2021

A bit from here, a bit from there but we have established that more than a third of crime guns come from the US and we know this only because those are guns with serial numbers.

EX500rider

(10,848 posts)
19. Mexico is a victim of their own citizens
Mon Aug 9, 2021, 07:18 PM
Aug 2021

The cartels will get guns even if the US didn't have any.. they happen to be experts at smuggling and have lots of cash

AndyS

(14,559 posts)
21. So you're gonna double down on that? Thank you for posting and letting
Mon Aug 9, 2021, 07:22 PM
Aug 2021

all of DU know who your are. Believe people when the tell you who they are . . .

EX500rider

(10,848 posts)
22. Based in reality I assume you mean?
Mon Aug 9, 2021, 07:24 PM
Aug 2021

People with smuggling networks that extend around the entire planet and have so much money they weigh it instead of counting it will not have trouble buying firearms in other countries

EX500rider

(10,848 posts)
25. You mean blame the Mexicans for violence caused by Mexicans
Mon Aug 9, 2021, 07:44 PM
Aug 2021

Who else would I blame?
You're pretty naive if you believe they couldn't get weapons from many countries in the world with amount of money they have.

ripcord

(5,399 posts)
31. This won't be popular but this could be curtailed if we and Mexico had better control of our border
Tue Aug 10, 2021, 01:54 PM
Aug 2021

EX500rider

(10,848 posts)
33. Exactly, if Mexico is worried about contraband entering their country...
Tue Aug 10, 2021, 03:54 PM
Aug 2021

...maybe they should step up car & truck searches at the border, I doubt the firearms flew in from the US.

It's just a Red Herring anyway, if zero firearms crossed the border it's not like they couldn't pick them up by the crateful at weapons bazaars in Africa, Middle East & Central Asia. These guys are professional smugglers with cash to burn.

The United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime's World Drug Report 2005 estimates the size of the global illicit drug market at US$321.6 billion in 2003 alone. I doubt it has gone down since then.

EX500rider

(10,848 posts)
32. "The gunners are trying for another lock and I won't give it to them."
Tue Aug 10, 2021, 03:39 PM
Aug 2021

How exactly, by discussing the subject?
If you didn't want people to discuss it you probably shouldn't have posted it.
Or were you just hoping only people who agreed with you would post?
Or do you mean you might get locked out of it if you can't keep your cool and discuss it in a rational manner?

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