Sorry, but somebody has to lose their job for Afghanistan collapse, probably Cabinet-level

[greenjar_01]

If the shoe was on the other foot, everybody here would be baying for heads to roll, and that's not "both-siderism."

State, DoD, somebody.

This has been completely bungled and mis-managed, and it's not OK.

And I agree with full withdrawal, but it needed to be managed properly, and it wasn't. At some point, the honorable thing to do is admit a colossal fuck up and turn in your keys.

[Dan]

1. The Agreement was made under the Trump Administration - this mess was a done deal.

[greenjar_01]

7. Weak sauce

Biden's people have been in charge since March at least.

Honestly, are we so partisan that we can't recognize basic accountability?

[Dan]

9. Maybe, what would you have us do?

Tear up the Treaty?

Abide by the parts of the Treaty that we agree with?

Expand our forces for the duration of the Treaty (until the agree deadline for our withdrawal) and commit to trying to destroy the Taliban within that short period of time?

Stay forever?

Or pay more money for our Afghan Allies to stand their ground?

What choices do you have or offer?

[Dorian Gray]

33. What I would have had us do

is get out all the people stuck there who aided our soldiers and government. That would have been a start.

[Dan]

45. Sad to say, but I think

That this (in Afghanistan withdrawal) is going to make the exit from Vietnam look like a master plan of planning.

[greenjar_01]

40. Whatever plan we were seeking to execute for the last five months was awful

The results make that plain.

Have the people responsible for that fired. Period.

[AkFemDem]

8. Your conflating "the deal" with "the execution"

The “deal” was bad. Blame Trump for that. He’s the one who legitimized Taliban leaders as the next government.

But the execution of this withdrawal? I don’t know how anyone can possibly watch this and then say with a straight face it was well executed. Shutting down our air base in Bagram before evacuating all allied personnel AND local Afghanis that we gave our word to means everyone was trapped at Kabul airport without local air support. Withdrawing troops in general before civilians were safely withdrawn, should have been an obvious “No”, but someone came up with this plan and someone approved it. 3500 Americans, countless allies, and tens of thousands of Afghans who were promised safe passage in exchange for loyal side by side work for years are still stuck there. If this is shitshow was happening under the Trump admin we’d all be screaming for blood.

[Dan]

13. I agree, maybe the Execution of the withdrawal could have been handled better, But

How long were our Afghan allies going to stand? How many more Coalition troops should have been deployed to stabilize the Afghan government?

Military Deployments/withdrawals are always a mess - especially when the “enemy” knows your departure.

The “nicest” withdrawal that I can recall was when the USSR got the hell out of Afghan - whole convoys of troops/supplies just flat out leaving? It’s a little different for the U.S..

[DemocratSinceBirth]

28. The Soviet puppet government lasted two and one half years after they left.

[Dan]

31. Does not negate the validity of what I said.

The USSR did the job!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

32. I was amplifying on what you said. It was a much nicer "withdrawal".

Interestingly enough they went in in the first place because their puppet government was about to be toppled.

[cilla4progress]

19. Succinct and accurate.

Leave mitary there as cover till all protected partied are out. Honor our commitment.

[Thomas Hurt]

2. I keep hearing the christofascist talking about some plan Pompeo and the Pig had...

I have not heard what it supposedly was, just whining that Biden didn't follow it.

Odds are there was no plan.

[msongs]

3. afghan prez flees country - wonder how much $$$ he stashed away first nt

[WhiskeyGrinder]

4. It's been mismanaged for 15 years.

[greenjar_01]

6. It sure has

[Hugh_Lebowski]

5. People in charge of intelligence who failed to realize that the Afghani forces would run like scared

kittens the second the Taliban showed up and looked at them cross-eyed ... would seem to be the most incompetent.

However this is arguably the most nebulous part of the equation (i.e. difficult to reliably gauge) so I'm going to wait to see what the after-reports look like, and more importantly, whether all US citizens get out of there safely (and hopefully the Afghanis who were most imperiled by a Taliban takeover).

[Deep State Witch]

16. They Knew

The decision-makers just chose to ignore it.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

18. Yeah, I don't think so

I think they got it wrong. But I'll look forward to the Congressional Committee's that the PuQ's will endlessly whine about until they get, even though they're not in charge, thanks to the military-contractor-owned M$M driving a constant narrative that Biden messed up.

[SoonerPride]

10. Why?

This was always going to happen.

[Gaugamela]

11. The purpose of the war in Afghanistan, like the war in Iraq, was to militarize US foreign policy

and lay golden eggs for US defense contractors. Mission accomplished. All good things come to an end eventually.

[JI7]

12. It wasn't going to end any other way. 2000 election is where we could

have changed things. Probably prevented and avoided certain things.

[Hoyt]

14. Gotta agree. Someone(s) will pay for this. Sure, past time to get out. But optics of people crowding

on planes to escape (like was just on CNN) is not going to age well.

We can blame bush, cheney, trump, etc., and rightly so, but this is bad. What, we are sending 6,000 troops back in after being told it wouldn't be like this.

[FakeNoose]

15. Agreed - Mike Pompeo has to go!

[bottomofthehill]

17. And someone has, President Ghani

The person who should pay with his job has.

[Eko]

20. I think we should wait for more information and not jump the gun

Last edited Sun Aug 15, 2021, 09:43 PM - Edit history (1)

making statements about something that we really don't know about.

[stillcool]

29. apparently the tv makes people experts

really fast.

[Lulu KC]

41. +1 n/t

[MustLoveBeagles]

47. This would be the wise thing to do

[maxsolomon]

22. Biden abided by Trump's deal.

The Taliban didn't attack our withdrawal. We withdrew.

Trump's deal extracted no promises from the Taliban beyond that that I know of.

If you want a bungler to blame, Cheney is still kicking in Jackson Hole, Bush is in his atelier. Instead of the Hague.

[moondust]

23. Who was responsible

for assessing and briefing the President on the readiness and motivation of Afghan troops to defend their country upon exit of western troops? I'm guessing some of the Afghan interpreters probably knew the troops wouldn't stand and fight.

[UnderThisLaw]

24. I think

Andrew Cuomo should lose his job for this

[Baked Potato]

25. Every year it was postponed made it worse.

I only care now if my fellow Americans get home safe.

And, on the politics side... no heads should roll. I want to win elections.

[JackSabbath]

26. There was no chance that this..

..ended any other way. We had 20 years to train their military. Either we did a piss poor job, they were incapable of learning, or they never really cared. I'm betting on the latter. Looks like they didn't even try to fight back.

Why? Because they were only in it for the paychecks and weapons. Now it's back to tribal infighting.

[stillcool]

27. Do you actually know what happened?

I will never forget the Iraqi's toppling Sadam Hussein's stature. Remember that?

[PufPuf23]

34. The toppling of Saddam's statue was staged by US military

There are many links, this is what came out near top and most blunt.

Toppling the statue of Saddam Hussein

Toppling the statue of Saddam Hussein was a staged event, by U.S. soldiers, for the media. A Reuters long-shot of Firdos Square where the statue was located (see below) shows that the Square was nearly empty when Saddam was torn down. The Square was sealed off by the U.S. military. The 200 people milling about were U.S. Marines, international press and Iraqis. However, the media portrayed it as an event of the Iraqi people.

0411square.jpg (image at link)


An American military vehicle actually pulled down the statue. Marine Corporal Ed Chin, who temporarily placed a U.S. flag over Saddam's face, became an instant media celebrity. His sister, Connie, appeared on the "Today" show and spoke with her brother via a video hook-up.

Military Admits Statue Toppling was a Psyops Stunt

On Point, a US army report on lessons learned from the war, notes that it was a Marine colonel, not Iraqi civilians, who decided to topple the statue. "We moved our [tactical PSYOP team] TPT vehicle forward and started to run around seeing what they needed us to do to facilitate their mission," states a U.S. military officer involved in the operation. "There was a large media circus at this location (I guess the Palestine Hotel was a media center at the time), almost as many reporters as there were Iraqis, as the hotel was right adjacent to the Al-Firdos Square. The Marine Corps colonel in the area saw the Saddam statue as a target of opportunity and decided that the statue must come down." The pyschological team used loudspeakers to encourage Iraqi civilians to assist, packed the scene with Iraqi children, and stepped in to readjust the props when one of the soldiers draped an American flag over the statue. "God bless them, but we were thinking from PSYOP school that this was just bad news," the officer reported. "We didn't want to look like an occupation force, and some of the Iraqis were saying, 'No, we want an Iraqi flag!' So I said 'No problem, somebody get me an Iraqi flag.' " [1]

https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Toppling_the_statue_of_Saddam_Hussein

[stillcool]

36. that is what I was referring to

people watch cable news and believe...still.

[PufPuf23]

37. Excuse me Stillc. I interpreted the post wrong. nt

[stillcool]

50. No problem puf...

I'm often misunderstood

[ymetca]

30. On the contrary

things are going exactly as planned.

By the Taliban, of course, but the planning was perfect.

From our perspective, however, panic and chaos helps discern who has the "ticket to ride".

Nobody shows up to an "orderly transition". No money to be made that way...

[USALiberal]

35. Really?? No! Nt

[PortTack]

38. Can't imagine the media hyping this, or making it look really bad for ratings..can you?

I will wait ..the real story is probably different.

They were told in May we were leaving.

Afghani men praise the Taliban..they want total control over women..it’s been their culture for centuries.

Unwilling to fight for western style freedoms, they obviously don’t want them..why would anyone think it could have or would have gone smoothly?!

[Tarc]

39. There is no "management". Someone had to have the balls to cut our losses on that

godforsaken boondoggle. That man was Joe Biden, and I applaud him for it.

I cannot say it any more succinctly than this; fuck Afghanistan. We are not the Planetary Police.

[Progressive Jones]

48. The Soviets couldn't do it, and the US couldn't do it. You can't control that region. nt

[greenjar_01]

52. What is hard about this: even if you're pulling out, you have to do it in an orderly manner

Even if we were keeping the withdrawal date, fine, good, by all means, let's get the fuck out of there. But did it have to look like and operate like THIS? This fucking mess? What a fucking clown show! You're not embarrassed and horrified by this ass over tea kettle prat fall of a pull-out? I mean seriously.

I'm not saying we should have stayed in. I'm saying that it absolutely had to be better than this catastrophe and that's on whomever was in charge. For the last five months at least, that's the Biden administration.

[Tarc]

55. There is no "orderly withdrawal" from a warzone. Either we fuck around forever, or

Get The Fuck Out.

If the non-terrorist Afghanis cannot handle their own shit after us holding their hand for 2 fucking decades, then fuck them.

I am tired of paying for Bush Jr.'s mistake with American blood.

[hatrack]

42. I'd suggest Mike Pompeo . . . .

[MiniMe]

46. That was my first thought

[Fiendish Thingy]

43. I don't blame Biden admin for Afghan collapse, was expected. I do however hold the admin responsible

For the failure to evacuate the interpreters and their families safely.

That was the responsibility of the state dept. Blinken should resign.

Biden, as CIC, could have ordered all the interpreters and family members onto military transport planes and flown them to Guam back in April for vetting and processing of paperwork. The political and legal fallout could have been dealt with once the refugees were safely on US soil.

[greenjar_01]

53. We're running for the airports

It's fucking chaos.

The terps? Yes, of course they should have been evacuated months ago.

[marble falls]

44. Nobody's job is on the line. This is what everybody knew would happen. No surprises heare past ...

... why'd it take so freaking long.

[Hekate]

49. Mike Pompeo Must Go

There, how’s that?

[Pompoy]

51. No it has not, it all reflects on the reluctance to fight by Afghan army

The decision needed to be made, why prolong it and waste more soldiers just because a leader doesn't want to take the blame for a withdrawal.
Enough with this crying over Afghanistan, we spilled a lot of blood over 20 years trying to help out. This is Afghanistan. Blaming Americans over the Afghan army cowardice.

[greenjar_01]

54. What was the plan for the withdrawal and why didn't it contemplate Afghan army collapse?

Seems like we pay a lot of people a lot of money to think about shit like this.

We're ass over tea kettle sprinting for the runways, and you think there's no blame to be laid on the many motherfuckers we have sitting in offices thinking about how to do this shit in an orderly manner?

Fuck's sake.

[meadowlander]

56. I nominate George Bush, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld.