Please explain to me why we are concerned about the way we left Afghanistan

[Edwcraig]

Last edited Wed Aug 18, 2021, 02:24 PM - Edit history (2)

Hate to be callous, but
How many Americans have been killed by the Taliban since this "botched" withdrawal occurred?
If there were only 75,000 mostly old ill equipped Taliban men that over ran the country, why could not the "85,000" interpreters and "friends" and the 330,000 well equipped security forces not defeat them?
And why are we responsible for these people. Is over 2,000 American lives and a couple of trillion dollars not enough?
Were we to take the whole country with us when we left?
It has been over a year since we announced we were leaving. If it was so easy for the Taliban to flee the country, why couldn't these people have done the same?
People are also saying that if we do not help these people, no one will cooperate with us in the future. Please prove that. For money and just a "chance" of coming to America, people will do a lot of things. Maybe by saying, "Look you can work with us, but do not expect us to take you with us when we leave. We are here to help you make your country better, not to make you a US citizen if you work with us. You should be doing all you can to win the hearts and minds of your fellow citizens so when we leave you will be safe." If that was the message to these people in the beginning, maybe they and there fellow citizens would have been more motivated to defend their country from the Taliban instead of fleeing their country when we leave.

[secondwind]

1. From what I've been reading, the problem with Afghanistan is that it is very tribal.........

and folks just didn't have the stomach to fight against each other, no matter how well equipped they were.

Just my two cents

[OLDMDDEM]

2. Excellent point. nt.

[cbabe]

3. Very tribal sidenote:

view BBC documentary series 'History of Scotland' by Neil Oliver.

Very bloody centuries of warlords.

[Klaralven]

4. Foreigners will be allowed to leave safely. There is no advantage to the Taliban for keeping them.

For example, they escorted the Indian embassy employees to the airport.

Afghans may be in more difficulty, including dual passport holders. It may depend on what their activities have been.

For example, the jailed head of Islamic State Khorasan was apparently sprung from jail and killed.

[reality1]

5. Here's my response

It wouldn't let me start a new thread so I'll post on this one. I came back to DU to post after all this time(though
I read regularly) to vent and maybe break through to politicians reading this.

What is happening here is exactly why Democrat's lose the narrative, public opinion and subsequent elections.

Biden's not doing a good job regarding Afghanistan, he's doing a GREAT job. Yet he's got no one of significance to go on tv and forcefully, without equivocation defending him. If the exact same thing happened under Trump FOX would be giving him 100% support and politicians would be making the rounds offering unequivocal support. They're already twisting themselves in knots defending Trumps actions while slamming Biden. Loud, wrong and united as ever.

Instead we have Mark Warner talking about investigative commissions Dems left right and center wringing their hands, expressing disappointment or hiding. The so called liberal media saying the sky is falling. Richard Engel has been an embarrassment, check twitter responses to his latest posts, people are all over him.

The gist of my post is, it should be easy for Dems to defend Biden here because he got it almost 100% right.

1. He was dealt a bad hand by Trump who was actually treasonous in his dealing with the Taliban.
They talk about Biden removing forces too quick? easy response...Trump had us leaving earlier which would have lead to more chaos.
Biden extended the date as far as he could to make the withdrawal more orderly. If he waited any longer he would've faced a renewal of an assault on U.S troops by assault by the the Taliban as per Doha agreement. This would have been done while we had a dangerously low amount of troops there as drawn down under Trump. Trump put our troops at a dangerously low level to benefit the Talibans hand and box Joe in. Joe either had to bring 10k plus back in and reengage in a full scale war again or get out. He got out as orderly as can be expected. Good. Easily defended while shining a light on how bad TRUMP fucked the U.S. on this

2. Biden announced weeks ago that he had confidence the Afghan government could hold. What was he supposed to say at the time? that he had no confidence and they could collapse at any moment? That would would've lead to immediate dissolution of Afghan forces and everyone would've rightfully blamed Biden for undermining the moral of the Afghan Army.

3. Chaos at airport. Yeah, for 1 or 2 Days! Biden and team and the military quickly pivoted, the military has control now and people are being ushered onto military transport planes in an orderly fashion. Ironically the Taliban are keeping the U.S. from being overrun again by panicked civilians. NOT a Saigon moment no matter how bad the press wants to shape it that way.

4. Footage of people swarming plane latching onto it and dropping to their death. O.K. let me get this right. People are so frightened by the Taliban that they basically chose that method of death? How about standing fighting, taking some Taliban out and dying with dignity. I guarantee you most American have no sympathy for some of the idiocy shown by Afghan MALES of fighting age at that airport. The same ones leaving Wives, Mother's, Sisters and Daughters behind to get on a plane out. Those cowards showed exactly why we needed to get out and fast.

Bottom line, there are other potential criticisms but all could be defended. Wars are messy and so are the endings, this was surprisingly bloodless and there was actually very little carnage. Do the Taliban suck? Yep but the people apparently didn't care enough to put up a fight.

Folks if we can't get our Dem representatives to stand up for what's right when its right we'll have our own Taliban in control here in 4 years. This reminds me of when Obamacare was passed and all hell broke loose in the republican town halls and on tv, death panels etc. All the people that should've had his back were nowhere to be seen.

Was the exit perfect? No but under circumstances, it's been dealt with extremely well. I'm more proud of Biden than ever. Democrats on the hill? Weaker than ever.
https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/568297-biden-finds-few-capitol-hill-allies-amid-afghanistan-backlash

The focus now should be on our troops remaining safe. We'll also get a hell lot of Afghan civilians out(too many for FOX already).

I will be contacting Mark Kelly as Sinema is worthless and my local house rep and demand that they vociferously support Biden. I hope you all do the same.
Why? because he got it right. NOW is the time for a unified front. Stop squirming and stand up for what is right. NOW is the time to shape public opinion with the Truth.

[ProfessorGAC]

8. +1

Solid post!

[TreasonousBastard]

12. Absolutely!

[MyOwnPeace]

17. VERY WELL stated!

Why ANY Dem would back away from supporting OUR President at this time is beyond understanding - and it is why we have such a terrible time delivering the "DEMOCRATIC" message and maintaining control of the different segments of power.

[Bettie]

21. Absolutely correct

I agree with you completely.

[lagomorph777]

22. Welcome back; great post.

[reality1]

23. Thank you!

Just trying to do whatever I can to stop American Taliban!

[Edwcraig]

24. Great post. Thanks.

[StarryNite]

28. Spot on reality!

[GoodRaisin]

30. K&R

This is when Democrats could use our own version of 24/7 "Democrat News" to stand up and support Democrats as aggressively as "Republican News" aka Fox News stands up and lies for their racist thugs and pedophiles.

[crickets]

31. Thank you, reality1! Excellent post.

Congressional directories:

https://www.house.gov/representatives
https://contactsenators.com/senator-phone-numbers

[hlthe2b]

6. One word, the "FUTURE." Potential allies will remember.

[reality1]

9. Remember what?

That after 20 years of LOST blood and treasure we wont continue to support a corrupt government whose people wont stand up for themselves. That after 20 years as the conflict has ended we continue to put our troops in harms way to evacuate as many civilians as possible many of whom are cowards that gave their weapons to Taliban instead of fighting?

What's goin on here at DU

[hlthe2b]

13. Your assumptions and words meant to deceptively represent my meaning are abysmal & untrue

They in no way whatsoever convey my thoughts or meaning. Some things are out of our control, but have unfortunate repercussions nonetheless.

That said, I don't interact with those who behave that way. I will gladly spend hours in a civil discussion with those who ask for clarification of what they don't know or understand. You apparently are not one who does. Take your nasty representations elsewhere. Perhaps that "head-pounding" emoticon will result in you taking time to actually ask about what you don't know or understand. One can only hope.

Good day

[reality1]

16. Sorry..

..Head pounding in response to what I've seen on DU in general. Truly perplexed.

"Some things are out of our control, but have unfortunate repercussions nonetheless. "

Shaping an accurate narrative is wholly under control of Democratic officials.

Good day

[Caliman73]

25. Can you elaborate?

FYI,

The Taliban had been in control of Afghanistan since the 1990's when we went in looking for Bin Laden. The Taliban actually offered to turn Bin Laden over to a third party for arrest and trial.

We took the Taliban out and installed a government that was friendly to our interests. I will stipulate up front, that the Taliban were horrible in their treatment of the people and other areas.

In that context, please explain what you mean by "potential allies"? What we did in Afghanistan was not, in my opinion, for any kind of "humanitarian" purpose.

In contrast, We helped to rebuild most of Europe and Japan after WWII and have been staunch allies with those countries in Europe and with Japan. We have been a staunch ally to South Korea since the 1950's. Lord knows we have been more than a staunch ally to Israel.

So again, what do you mean by "potential allies will remember"?

[hlthe2b]

27. While not in our total control nor should it be unexpected, promises made to those who risked lives

for us are undoubtedly being broken and will HAVE to be broken. I think that should be obvious. Unintended consequences certainly, but nonetheless can/will be devastating in the future. Just as in the years following our Vietnam debacle, despite very intensive attempts to bring those who helped and fought alongside us to the US we could not bring all. Now, there will undoubtedly be weeks and months showing our failures in this regard no matter how intense our efforts to do the right thing by Afghanis at risk. Potential allies will factor this in for the future--just as they will our abandoning the Kurds in Syria (though the media has done little to follow-up).

Ill-fated attempts at nation-building do not end well. We don't seem to learn our lesson and this was baked in when Bush* sent the first troops to Afghanistan.

Anyone who mIGHT assist and fight alongside us in the future are potential allies--not limited to state actors as with our NATO partners.

[Caliman73]

29. Thanks for elaborating.

Unfortunately, our track record for taking care of people who have helped us execute military campaigns post Korean War, is very poor. Like you said, the problem stems mainly from "nation building" attempts. We became involved in Vietnam by bailing out a colonial power so as to not lose to a communist power. We had no business intervening in that conflict which was ultimately the Vietnamese trying to get rid of all colonial powers. They also fought a brief war with China, who had been helping them in their struggle with the US. As you said, the Syrian Kurds, and the Iraqi Kurds to some extent. Central American nations also know the folly of our nation building.

Perhaps we shouldn't be doing that, instead of focusing on how we might look for leaving collaborators behind? If we maybe stop interfering in the affairs of sovereign nations, then we don't leave anyone behind.

I would also posit this... Anytime a Republican wants to go into a country for ANY reason, the answer should be a resounding NO.

[Kaleva]

7. Who is forcing you to be concerned?

[Johnny2X2X]

10. It was a successful withdrawal

And it continue to be successful.

There was one day where the airports weren't secure for orderly evacuation and those images are all the news cares to show.

This is no longer a crisis, no matter how much Republicans cheer for it to be, the crisis was not really present save for some moments of uncertainty. The Taliban kept up their end of the peace deal and are not attacking US citizens or allies who are evacuating, in fact they're providing security and facilitating those evacuations right now. If this keep up, we're completely out in a few more days and 90% of the Afghans who want out are out in the few weeks after that.

Whether the Taliban continues to respect the rights of our allies left behind is to be seen, but so far so good.

In a month, we'll be out of Afghanistan and there will be some stability there. And there's some hope that the people there will have decent lives too.

[reality1]

14. Thank you!

Now can we get some Dem officials on tv to shape the narrative that is actually reflective of the reality.

This nonsense is exactly why Dems lose. GQP unified messaging even when 100% wrong. Dems weak and hand wringing. See initial days of Obamacare.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

11. Especially, given that all along, the presumption that we WERE handing it over to

a functioning government and military we outfitted.

Which presumably would've meant everyone would've 'stayed'.

Then you get to the last few months of the 20 years, and suddenly you have the problems of

a) trying to figure out who all these people ARE that deserve to be 'gotten out',
b) where they are, and
c) how to get them safely out.

in the middle of a quickly deteriorating security situation on the ground, half-way across the world, with only 2,500 troops on the ground.

I think Biden and Co are doing fairly well considering, myself.

[TreasonousBastard]

15. I do not, for the life of me, understand why it is so much more...

difficult to get out of this war than it was to get into it.

[reality1]

18. It's really not

With all do respect, as we speak there is relative calm in that Kabul and our Military has complete control of the Military side of Bagram, we are now at a tempo of evacuating 1000's of our Afghan allies a day all the while not at at an armed stand off with the Taliban.
If this continues it has to be considered a successful and relatively bloodless exit.

btw I'm posting a lot because I'm passionate on this issue and am very disappointed with Dem officials inability to shape a narrative that is actually reflective of reality.

[TreasonousBastard]

20. My fault. I wasn't clear that I wasn't talking about the actual...

leaving, but the reaction to it.

[ansible]

19. The world is full of sharks, and there is blood in the water

Americans might not give a fuck, but the rest of the world does.

[xocetaceans]

26. Basic human decency. n/t

[haele]

32. Because no one wants to admit why we were still there after 2003.

We "won" the war. However, we lost the peace.
State Department should have taken over to help them build a strong, stable, more modern government - hopefully democratic, at least something closer than what Iran got with the Shah we imposed on them - that would stand on it's own and become an ally in that region.
Buuuuttt - oil. And American corporate power. And looting of taxpayer dollars to push American Empire - PNAC.

According to PNAC, Afghanistan was never supposed to be strong enough to exit our sphere of influence.

And that's where we lost. We suck at Empires. As a country, our capitalists, our "Captains of Industry" and the politicians they own are too busy chasing the Squirrel of the next quarter's earnings to pay attention to the real world everyone else has to live in.

Haele