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Wed Oct 13, 2021, 01:29 PM

"Its Time To Shut Up About Bob

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Arrow 30 replies Author Time Post
Reply "Its Time To Shut Up About Bob (Original post)
kpete Oct 13 OP
Effete Snob Oct 13 #1
Caliman73 Oct 13 #4
Effete Snob Oct 13 #8
Caliman73 Oct 13 #17
Effete Snob Oct 13 #18
Caliman73 Oct 13 #19
Effete Snob Oct 13 #21
hadEnuf Oct 13 #23
Effete Snob Oct 13 #24
Marthe48 Oct 13 #12
Effete Snob Oct 13 #13
hunter Oct 13 #5
Effete Snob Oct 13 #7
hunter Oct 13 #11
Effete Snob Oct 13 #14
OldBaldy1701E Oct 13 #20
Effete Snob Oct 13 #2
SWBTATTReg Oct 13 #3
Raster Oct 13 #6
calimary Oct 14 #28
Raster Oct 15 #30
Kid Berwyn Oct 13 #9
Effete Snob Oct 13 #15
Klaralven Oct 14 #29
progressoid Oct 13 #10
czarjak Oct 13 #16
The Jungle 1 Oct 13 #22
calimary Oct 13 #26
NoMoreRepugs Oct 13 #25
pansypoo53219 Oct 14 #27

Response to kpete (Original post)

Wed Oct 13, 2021, 01:38 PM

1. Then it's also time to shut up about a lot of things


Some, but not all, of these "corporations don't pay taxes / get subsidies" things are because they are doing stuff we told them to do and offered to pay them to do.

If you want government to subsidize things like wind, solar, and renewable carbon (biodiesel and biomethane), then you are going to have to accept the fact that the government is going to pay Shell to do that.

https://www.shell.com/energy-and-innovation/new-energies/wind.html


"Shell first invested in US onshore wind in 2001. Today we have four operating wind farms onshore in the USA. These are:

Rock River (Wyoming)

Shell has been delivering renewable wind power from the Rock River windfarm in Wyoming, USA, since 2001. Rock River, which Shell co-owns with US renewables company, Terra-Gen, produces enough electricity to power 25,000 US homes.

Brazos (Texas)

The Brazos windfarm in Fluvanna, Texas, sits south east of Lubbock, on the Caprock of the Llano Estacado and is fully operated by Shell. The 160-megawatt site consists of 160 Mitsubishi turbines and can provide enough energy to power around 48,000 US homes.

Whitewater Hill (California)

Shell co-owns Whitewater Hill with US renewables company Terra-Gen. The 61.5-megawatt wind farm, located north-west of Palm Springs, California, has more than 1,400 turbines and generates over 520 megawatts. Each year, the project is estimated to produce enough energy to power around 12,000 US homes.

Cabazon (California)

Cabazon is also co-owned with Terra-Gen and features 62 turbines that can produce 660 kilowatts. The 41-megawatt wind farm is located in the San Gorgonio Pass west of Palm Springs, California. Each year, the project is estimated to produce enough electricity to power around 12,000 US homes."


We provide subsidy and tax incentives to companies like Shell to do things like that.

If the argument is "let's stop subsidizing or providing tax incentives for stuff", that's fine. But at least be honest about the fact that some of those subsidies and tax incentives are for things we wanted in the first place.

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Response to Effete Snob (Reply #1)

Wed Oct 13, 2021, 02:47 PM

4. That isn't the argument. This is why simplistic memes don't work well.

Shell and other fossil fuel companies know the writing on the wall, which is probably why they have simultaneously been stalling our move away from fossil fuels (for decades) and building their own investments into renewables. MONEY. It is about money and power for these large multinational companies.

You are absolutely correct that small companies are not going to be able to scale up production of renewable energy. We will need companies that are already scaled up.

That however, was not the point of the meme.

Conservatives talk about "handouts" by government to individuals as if people do not deserve to be able to eat or pay for needed services like healthcare and child care. These same conservatives have no problem with the government giving billions of dollars to military contractors to build aircraft that the Air Force never wanted or tank systems that the Marines can't use.

The meme was simplistic and sloppy, which is why it doesn't really land, except for people who are already predisposed to accept that any subsidy to large companies is bad.

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Response to Caliman73 (Reply #4)

Wed Oct 13, 2021, 03:03 PM

8. This


In a forum with no limit on how many words people can use to express, explore, and discuss ideas, it is odd that people communicate using bumper-sticker logic.

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Response to Effete Snob (Reply #8)

Wed Oct 13, 2021, 05:00 PM

17. Bumper sticker "logic" can be effective sometimes.

Unfortunately, it is usually effective on people who do not formulate sophisticated arguments.

I can see how people would automatically assume "Shell is an evil company". They have done some really shitty things in pursuit of fossil fuel money.

That said, when we make faulty arguments it may tend to drive away people who are maybe not super motivated to be involved, that come in looking for information.

We can ALWAYS count on right wingers to argue in bad faith, but when we "do memes" that also leave out information, it will turn people off with the idea that, "both sides do it".

I think that people honestly see something that resonates with them, and post it up thinking that people will find it as profound as maybe they did at the time. I have certainly been guilty of that in my day.

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Response to Caliman73 (Reply #17)

Wed Oct 13, 2021, 05:10 PM

18. They've done outstandingly shitty things, to be sure


But nobody quits buying their products. So, there's that.

And, yeah, bumpersticker arguments are fun.

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Response to Effete Snob (Reply #18)

Wed Oct 13, 2021, 05:22 PM

19. True.

I drive a gasoline powered car. I would like to buy electric, but I cannot afford it right now.

Like you said, the subsidies are needed to help promote the use of renewable energies. Right now, we aren't at a scale where we can move on replacing fossil fuel vehicles with EV.

I wonder what the Ford F-150 EV will do to the market? Should be interesting. California is also going to stop allowing the sale of new Fossil Fuel vehicles after 2025 I believe.

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Response to Caliman73 (Reply #19)

Wed Oct 13, 2021, 06:04 PM

21. As long as we don't mind fucking over indigenous South Americans

https://www.dw.com/en/lithium-extraction-for-e-mobility-robs-chilean-communities-of-water/a-51844854


At first glance, Chile's Atacama Desert looks a barren, inhospitable place. Yet indigenous people and animals have long thrived there. Now locals says they're having to compete with the lithium industry for the desert's limited water resources.

Coyo is one of dozens of Likan-antai communities that live in the desert's small oases. The community takes turns to tap the San Pedro River water and after waiting for two weeks, today, Hugo Diaz can finally water his crops.

"Before the mining companies arrived here, there was a lot of water," Diaz told DW. "But mining has consumed the groundwater, the companies even take water from the river, so we farmers don't get the water we need anymore."


Sorry Hugo, but that's the price you are going to have to bear so that we can have EV's.

Maybe, and this is just spitballing here, every person doesn't really need a one-ton personal carcass-carrier to haul their asses around car-centric-designed suburban sprawl.

A great thought experiment I read recently involved a world in which everyone decided to walk around on stilts. They did this for generations, so all of their houses had doors very high up. Inside, the houses have high ceilings and cabinets 10 feet off of the floors, and so on.

Then, someone said, "how about we quit using stilts," and people were like, "but how will we use our houses and office buildings if we don't use stilts?" We have resource waste baked-in to our lifestyles, and we don't even question it.

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Response to Caliman73 (Reply #17)

Wed Oct 13, 2021, 06:20 PM

23. Your average person gets turned off with too much information.

That's just the way it has become. Simple gets the point across.

Both get monetary assistance from the government. Sure, there are long arguments about what Shell and the other energy giants really do with their big subsidies, but giant corporations can well defend themselves and nobody is really going after them in a meaningful way.

Bob on the other hand is being absolutely savaged for his $1500.00 a year in food help. Help that puts nutritious food in his kid's mouths.

Shell has media teams to work on their image and explain what they are doing while Bob and his family has to suck up being treated like dirt. Because they are poor.

I think the meme makes it's point clearly. It's about Bob, not Shell.


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Response to hadEnuf (Reply #23)

Wed Oct 13, 2021, 06:24 PM

24. True


Although Shell is killing Bob.

At Bob's own behest.

And Bob doesn't realize it.

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Response to Caliman73 (Reply #4)

Wed Oct 13, 2021, 03:59 PM

12. When the utility companies can put a meter on a sunbeam

We'll have solar power.

I heard that a million years ago.

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Response to Marthe48 (Reply #12)

Wed Oct 13, 2021, 04:38 PM

13. And it's another good example of an empty and meaningless slogan

You do not even own enough real estate to cover your own electrical needs with solar, and certainly nobody living in high-density housing does.

That means you are going to be buying electricity from someone, regardless of how it is generated.

Solar is "free" in the same sense that oil is "free" too. Petroleum is there, in the ground, for free. Just like sunshine falls to the ground for free.

But extracting and refining that petroleum costs money and so does converting that sunlight to electricity.

Utilities build solar and wind installations in order to harvest "free" sunshine and wind, and they are able to meter and sell the electricity just fine.

That is what frustrates me so much about empty sloganeering as a substitute for thought.

The oil industry started with surface deposits of "free" petroleum. You can still just scoop it up for free (as long as they don't catch you) at the La Brea Tar Pits right in downtown LA. Every natural resource - wind, petroleum, solar, etc. - starts out with something that is "free" for the taking.

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Response to Effete Snob (Reply #1)

Wed Oct 13, 2021, 02:53 PM

5. But I don't like any of those things.

All they do is increase our long term dependence on natural gas.

Natural gas is the most dangerous energy source there is because most people falsely believe it's "clean."

After all, it's "natural." And Brawndo has electrolytes!

Shell knows that. So does Texas.

Natural gas will destroy what's left of the natural environment as we know it, and quite probably our civilization as well.

Bob on the other hand, probably works harder than anyone at Shell who has made millions off this scam. And his job, subsidized by food stamps, actually makes the world a better place.


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Response to hunter (Reply #5)

Wed Oct 13, 2021, 03:02 PM

7. Shell receives subidies for solar, wind and biocarbon products


It's not just Shell. If you want GE to get subsidized for wind turbines, you can't complain later about them getting subsidized for wind turbines.

If you want Amazon to be given tax breaks for putting facilities in economically-challenged areas, then you can't complain about them getting tax breaks for locating in economically-challenged areas.

We are rooting to get the Biden infrastructure bill passed, but it is chock full of the kinds of economic incentives to large corporations to do things we want them to do.

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Response to Effete Snob (Reply #7)

Wed Oct 13, 2021, 03:34 PM

11. I don't want anybody to be subsidized for...

... renewable energy schemes built on previously undeveloped land or ocean environments.

That's some "We had to destroy the village in order to save it" bullshit.

Nevertheless, I realize politics is a messy business.

I can be a radical environmentalist and Democrat at the same time. I can be some kind of Social Justice Catholic Warrior.

What I choose not to be is a clueless Green or any kind of Fascist.

My political beliefs are considerably left of Biden's, but I still think he's a great President.

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Response to hunter (Reply #11)

Wed Oct 13, 2021, 04:42 PM

14. I get that

But it is really stupid for people to be urging things like renewable energy tax credits, awarding them to outfits like GE for making wind turbines on a massive scale, and then turning around and saying "GE pays no taxes!!!!"

Well, no shit. We gave them tax credits for investing in renewable energy.

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Response to Effete Snob (Reply #1)

Wed Oct 13, 2021, 05:47 PM

20. I understand what you are saying

But... the solar cell was invented in the 1880s. The 'modern' version came around 1954. What is taking so long to create the means to use them on houses for power? The best they can do right now is 12.5% conversion. I feel pretty sure the improvements to automobile carburetors/fuel injectors has been much faster that that rate of improvement, just for example.

What the meme is trying to say, however, is that there are those who see major issues with Bob and his $1500, but seem to have no issue with the vast amounts given to a big corporation... mainly because most of them don't even know that this is going on. Yes, they are being given subsidies and incentives to develop renewables. My concern is that the rate of return seems very low/slow. Added to this the fact that there has been evidence over the years that shows some big corporations cannot be trusted to utilize those incentives and subsidies solely for their intended use. Added to that the evidence of how some corporations flat out lie when pressed to explain exactly what they are doing with those same congressional offerings. This is the intent of the meme... to point out that Bob is the least of the spending floating around out there and to try and blame him for the deficit we labor under is silly, to say the least.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Wed Oct 13, 2021, 01:42 PM

2. Here's a concrete example:



https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/17/biden-administration-plan-for-lowering-costs-of-solar-energy.html

Fighting climate change is a priority for the Biden administration. On his first day in office, President Joe Biden re-entered the U.S. into the Paris Climate Accord, and he has pledged to slash greenhouse gas emissions in half by 2030. Heís also called for a carbon-free power sector by 2035, for which solar growth will be instrumental.

The infrastructure package passed by the Senate last week includes billions of dollars for clean energy projects, although the amounts are significantly pared down from the original American Jobs Plan unveiled in March.


Bob isn't going to build those projects. Large energy companies are going to build those projects. We are going to offer them subsidies and tax incentives to do so.

Then, we are going to complain that we gave subsidies and tax incentives to those companies to do those things.

I just don't get it.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Wed Oct 13, 2021, 02:39 PM

3. And these disgusting corporate welfare payments continue still, while the Fossil Fuels ...

Industry is making record profits, while they're cutting payments to Bob too...
--snip--
Despite these massive profits, the fossil fuel industry continues to receive tens of billions of dollars in subsidies every year at the expense of U.S. taxpayers. While these companies reap their benefits, communities across the country suffer the impacts of climate change, oil spills and water contamination from fracking, drilling and mining.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Wed Oct 13, 2021, 02:58 PM

6. Now do Chevron...

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Response to Raster (Reply #6)

Thu Oct 14, 2021, 12:35 PM

28. There should be one of these using each oil company logo.

Each one.

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Response to calimary (Reply #28)

Fri Oct 15, 2021, 07:20 AM

30. HELL YES!!!

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Wed Oct 13, 2021, 03:08 PM

9. Royal Dutch Shell

But, hey, itís the thought that counts.

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Response to Kid Berwyn (Reply #9)

Wed Oct 13, 2021, 04:46 PM

15. Awww... now, now, now....

We can't talk about how the Netherlands pays for all that wonderful progressive infrastructure and social programs.



That would be like taking a look under the hood at critical resource extraction for electric vehicles. Third rail stuff.

As long as we can support a wildly disproportionate consumption profile with the externalities sufficiently remote, we're good to go.

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Response to Kid Berwyn (Reply #9)

Thu Oct 14, 2021, 01:04 PM

29. Anglo-Dutch company

In November 2004, following a period of turmoil caused by the revelation that Shell had been overstating its oil reserves, it was announced that the Shell Group would move to a single capital structure, creating a new parent company to be named Royal Dutch Shell plc, with its primary listing on the London Stock Exchange, a secondary listing on the Amsterdam Stock Exchange, its headquarters and tax residency in The Hague, Netherlands and its registered office in London.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Wed Oct 13, 2021, 03:30 PM

10. And there is a good chance that Bob (or Barbara) is in the military.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Wed Oct 13, 2021, 04:49 PM

16. Ag subsidies pay damned good too.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Wed Oct 13, 2021, 06:10 PM

22. I am so sick of corporate welfare.

America we must make it stop. Corporate welfare is not capitalism it is socialism. Now I do like socialism however this is bullshit. Why do we build football stadiums? Please explain that.
Philadelphia's school system is a full up failure yet I am told racism does not exist. Um yea FU!

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Response to The Jungle 1 (Reply #22)

Wed Oct 13, 2021, 11:16 PM

26. So am I, my friend.

So am I.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Wed Oct 13, 2021, 08:44 PM

25. Never underestimate the ability of DU to have a

spirited debate about anything.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Thu Oct 14, 2021, 03:08 AM

27. ronny raygun never mentioned welfare kings.

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