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RandySF

(59,587 posts)
Sun Oct 24, 2021, 01:46 AM Oct 2021

Gun That Killed DP ... ALLEGEDLY USED FOR OFF-SET TARGET PRACTICE

The smoking gun that claimed the life of Halyna Hutchins might've been more than just an on-set prop -- it was also being fired recreationally, even when cameras weren't rolling.

Multiple sources directly connected to the 'Rust' production tell TMZ ... the same gun Alec Baldwin accidentally fired -- hitting the DP and director -- was being used by crews members off set as well, for what we're told amounted to target practice.

e're told this off-the-clock shooting -- which was allegedly happening away from the movie lot -- was being done with real bullets ... which is how some who worked on the film believe a live round found its way in one of the chambers that day.



https://www.tmz.com/2021/10/23/alec-baldwin-rust-gun-accident-used-off-set-target-practice/

83 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Gun That Killed DP ... ALLEGEDLY USED FOR OFF-SET TARGET PRACTICE (Original Post) RandySF Oct 2021 OP
I blame the producer(s), who chose to maximize profits by not using union crews. NullTuples Oct 2021 #1
The union problems Zeitghost Oct 2021 #3
has nothing to do with union , called common sense & safety rules ! no compromise ! monkeyman1 Oct 2021 #7
The armorer is a daughter of an experienced armorer, but she herself didn't have much experience. LisaL Oct 2021 #11
The camera crew left because of unsafe conditions .. including guns. ananda Oct 2021 #19
The assistant director has a history of lax security protocals gldstwmn Oct 2021 #37
The armorer is supposed to keep control of the guns at all times. Kablooie Oct 2021 #2
The "Line Producer" is responsible for what happens on the set. Cattledog Oct 2021 #9
should have been no live ammo on the set property period ! no excuse's ! monkeyman1 Oct 2021 #4
Yep. That's a sacred rule they decided to ignore. Kablooie Oct 2021 #5
I wonder if the gun is some sort of antique gldstwmn Oct 2021 #56
The movie was a Western. LisaL Oct 2021 #59
I'm not saying they should. I'm wondering if that's why someone decided to use it for target practi gldstwmn Oct 2021 #67
Highly unlikely. Straw Man Oct 2021 #75
thats crazy Demovictory9 Oct 2021 #6
Oh great... calimary Oct 2021 #8
No person who is not thoroughly trained in gun safety should ever be allowed to handle Roisin Ni Fiachra Oct 2021 #10
Massive liability. The director and production company are at fault. yardwork Oct 2021 #12
What is this they are calling a live round? A blank cartridge or a cartridge with a metal bullet? doc03 Oct 2021 #13
Cold, not hot. LisaL Oct 2021 #14
Well what was it loaded with a blank or doc03 Oct 2021 #21
My understanding is that the firearm in question had at least one live round in it. Dial H For Hero Oct 2021 #25
On a movie set "live round" could be a real bullet or a blank. LisaL Oct 2021 #26
The gun in question had been used for target practice with real ammunition only days previously. Dial H For Hero Oct 2021 #28
It was real Zeitghost Oct 2021 #30
It hasn't been confirmed. LisaL Oct 2021 #33
The police warrant affidavit Zeitghost Oct 2021 #34
Link? LisaL Oct 2021 #35
Prop gun in Alec Baldwin accidental movie set shooting had live rounds, police say gldstwmn Oct 2021 #38
Again, "live rounds" in the movie language means LisaL Oct 2021 #43
The language in the warrant is from law enforcement gldstwmn Oct 2021 #69
Live round what do you mean by "Live Round" ? A blank or doc03 Oct 2021 #45
It Was Announced As A "Cold Gun" ProfessorGAC Oct 2021 #63
So much speculation (n/t) Patton French Oct 2021 #15
TMZ claims they got this information from sources connected LisaL Oct 2021 #16
TMZ has good sources with both the cops and the industry. gldstwmn Oct 2021 #39
Rumors, rumors, rumors, nothing but rumors and speculation all day long n/t Shanti Shanti Shanti Oct 2021 #17
Agreed. A whole lot of stuff needs to be sorted out, before the blame game starts. (nt) Paladin Oct 2021 #18
Not rumors. The camera crew put it in writing. ananda Oct 2021 #20
This message was self-deleted by its author sl8 Oct 2021 #22
This happened in New Mexico Zeitghost Oct 2021 #31
This message was self-deleted by its author sl8 Oct 2021 #32
I don't understand MenloParque Oct 2021 #23
If firearm is empty, it can't fire anything. LisaL Oct 2021 #27
Interesting MenloParque Oct 2021 #29
You want Baldwin charged because he used the trigger during camera blocking gldstwmn Oct 2021 #70
Huh? MenloParque Oct 2021 #74
I have been reading that the protocol is to never point a gun at a person. Irish_Dem Oct 2021 #72
They weren't running a safe set. They seemed to be in a hurry. gldstwmn Oct 2021 #40
Right, why was the gun pointed at the cinematographer? Irish_Dem Oct 2021 #73
Waiting for the investigation to be complete befor casting asparagus. SYFROYH Oct 2021 #24
Three people are responsible for the death, the armorer, the AD, and Elec Baldwin. marie999 Oct 2021 #36
The actor doesn't check the weapon. It's supposed to be handed to him by the armorer gldstwmn Oct 2021 #41
The actor is the one that pulls the trigger. marie999 Oct 2021 #42
Actors are asked to do multiple takes. LisaL Oct 2021 #44
And Alec has to live with the fact he killed someone. marie999 Oct 2021 #47
Who the hell is Eric? LisaL Oct 2021 #48
Corrected my mistake. I still say it was as much his fault as anyone else, he pulled the trigger. marie999 Oct 2021 #49
No, it isn't obamanut2012 Oct 2021 #51
What law did he break? gldstwmn Oct 2021 #52
He killed someone. I am not a lawyer so I don't know, marie999 Oct 2021 #55
That's pretty technical. gldstwmn Oct 2021 #57
He pulled the trigger without checking to see if the weapon was loaded. marie999 Oct 2021 #58
He was filming a movie. gldstwmn Oct 2021 #66
In several ways Crepuscular Oct 2021 #81
This message was self-deleted by its author gldstwmn Oct 2021 #83
You obviously have never been on a film set! Nt USALiberal Oct 2021 #80
Is he not living with it? gldstwmn Oct 2021 #54
No, that is not the actor's job obamanut2012 Oct 2021 #50
Baldwin is also a producer of the movie. RandySF Oct 2021 #64
And? Act_of_Reparation Oct 2021 #77
I think you are right legally Steelrolled Oct 2021 #60
For the 100th time, actors don't know how to handle guns!!! Nt USALiberal Oct 2021 #79
I seem to recall a Columbo or Hitchcock episode where doc03 Oct 2021 #46
Yeah, it makes for a good story. Steelrolled Oct 2021 #61
The Perry Mason series finale and one of the early revival movies dealt with this MustLoveBeagles Oct 2021 #65
That's a GIANT no-no. NT Happy Hoosier Oct 2021 #53
never ever trust a gun that has been in somebody else's mit's !! monkeyman1 Oct 2021 #62
Not without checking it yourself! NT Happy Hoosier Oct 2021 #76
AIN'T GUNS GRAND!!! Dirty Socialist Oct 2021 #68
This explains a great deal LetMyPeopleVote Oct 2021 #71
Unbelievable. If true, they were reckless beyond belief. ecstatic Oct 2021 #78
Who all had access to the firearm? LiberalFighter Oct 2021 #82

Zeitghost

(3,892 posts)
3. The union problems
Sun Oct 24, 2021, 02:41 AM
Oct 2021

The union problems were with the camera crew I believe. I don't think the armorer was involved in that.

If reports are ture and she was allowing props to be used recreationally to fire real rounds, it is extremely negligent.

LisaL

(44,980 posts)
11. The armorer is a daughter of an experienced armorer, but she herself didn't have much experience.
Sun Oct 24, 2021, 08:56 AM
Oct 2021

This was her second movie as a lead armorer.
I don't think she had any formal training, other than from her father.
Seems like no certification or formal training is required for the job.

gldstwmn

(4,575 posts)
37. The assistant director has a history of lax security protocals
Sun Oct 24, 2021, 02:24 PM
Oct 2021

on sets. I'm willing to bet this all goes back to him. If that is the case then he must in some way be criminally negligible.

Kablooie

(18,645 posts)
2. The armorer is supposed to keep control of the guns at all times.
Sun Oct 24, 2021, 02:21 AM
Oct 2021

The AD (1st Assistant Director) is supposed to make sure the armorer is doing their job correctly.
The producer is supposed to make sure competent people are hired for all safety related positions.

The union crew walked off because of unsafe conditions so many or most of the crew were scabs which might not have the same professional standards as the trained union crew.

Alec Baldwin will be held responsible not because he shot the gun but because he is one of the producers who allowed these unsafe conditions to arise to conserve costs.

Kablooie

(18,645 posts)
5. Yep. That's a sacred rule they decided to ignore.
Sun Oct 24, 2021, 03:26 AM
Oct 2021

Also the armorer is supposed to keep control of all guns at all times.
No one is supposed to touch them unless they handed to them for a shot. Immediatly after the shot everyone is supposed to stand still until the armorer takes back the gun and call clear.

gldstwmn

(4,575 posts)
56. I wonder if the gun is some sort of antique
Sun Oct 24, 2021, 04:45 PM
Oct 2021

or rarity and that's why some gun enthusiast decided to take it out for target practice?

LisaL

(44,980 posts)
59. The movie was a Western.
Sun Oct 24, 2021, 04:53 PM
Oct 2021

Guns used were "historical revolvers" of that time period. Nobody should be taking prop guns for target shooting, regardless.

gldstwmn

(4,575 posts)
67. I'm not saying they should. I'm wondering if that's why someone decided to use it for target practi
Sun Oct 24, 2021, 07:10 PM
Oct 2021

Straw Man

(6,626 posts)
75. Highly unlikely.
Mon Oct 25, 2021, 01:42 AM
Oct 2021
I wonder if the gun is some sort of antique

or rarity and that's why some gun enthusiast decided to take it out for target practice?

Wild West replica guns -- both rifles and pistols -- are a dime a dozen. Most are manufactured in Italy by Uberti, Pedersoli, and several other firms. This is usually attributed to the "spaghetti Western" phenomenon of the '60s and '70s.

If they were taking these guns out into the field for target practice, it would have been attributable more to boredom and lack of discipline than any sort of fascination, unless these were people who were unfamiliar with firearms in general, in which case it is doubly reprehensible.

One factor that has been mostly ignored in all the speculation about what happened is the possibility -- depending on the period depicted in the film -- that the gun in question was not a cartridge-loading revolver at all, but a cap-and-ball revolver. That would mean that the loading process would have been considerably more complex, involving loading each of the six chambers in the cylinder with black powder, a ball (bullet), and a cap (primer) separately. Safety checks with such a firearm would be correspondingly more complex as well. If the film's setting is pre-1870s, it's quite possible that that's what was involved.

Roisin Ni Fiachra

(2,574 posts)
10. No person who is not thoroughly trained in gun safety should ever be allowed to handle
Sun Oct 24, 2021, 08:40 AM
Oct 2021

a firearm capable of firing live ammunition.

A firearm that is capable of firing live ammunition should never be left in a place where people who are not thoroughly trained in gun safety have access to it.

Sounds like a bunch of yahoos who were untrained in gun safety were playing with firearms as if they were toys, off the set.

The most famous of all famous last words are:

"I didn't know it was loaded".

doc03

(35,425 posts)
13. What is this they are calling a live round? A blank cartridge or a cartridge with a metal bullet?
Sun Oct 24, 2021, 09:17 AM
Oct 2021

I am confused by so much misinformation put out by the news media that are totally ignorant about guns. I heard a report that who ever gave the gun to Baldwin said it was hot? What did that mean, it had a blank cartridge a metal bullet? They surly didn't mean it had an actual metal bullet in it? I haven't heard enough information about this to blame anyone for the accident. I have read comments from numerous DU movie production experts and firearms experts. Myself I am going to wait and see if anyone is convicted of some crime.

doc03

(35,425 posts)
21. Well what was it loaded with a blank or
Sun Oct 24, 2021, 10:02 AM
Oct 2021

a metal bullet. If the arms person hands him a gun and says it is cold it is not Baldwin's fault.

 

Dial H For Hero

(2,971 posts)
25. My understanding is that the firearm in question had at least one live round in it.
Sun Oct 24, 2021, 12:33 PM
Oct 2021

Still, he should have checked it himself.

LisaL

(44,980 posts)
26. On a movie set "live round" could be a real bullet or a blank.
Sun Oct 24, 2021, 12:37 PM
Oct 2021

We don't know for sure what it actually was.

 

Dial H For Hero

(2,971 posts)
28. The gun in question had been used for target practice with real ammunition only days previously.
Sun Oct 24, 2021, 12:46 PM
Oct 2021

While I'll grant that all the details aren't available yet, it seems far more plausible that a real bullet was fired, especially given that one person was killed and another injured by a single shot. I have trouble imagining how a blank could do that.

Zeitghost

(3,892 posts)
30. It was real
Sun Oct 24, 2021, 01:14 PM
Oct 2021

A blank can be dangerous close up, but it is not capable of pushing the wadding holding the powder in through a person and into another. I believe this has been confirmed by the initial reports coming out.

LisaL

(44,980 posts)
33. It hasn't been confirmed.
Sun Oct 24, 2021, 01:24 PM
Oct 2021

We heard it was a "live round" but in a movie business that could mean blank.
I agree that it sure appears it was a real bullet, but that hasn't been confirmed.

Zeitghost

(3,892 posts)
34. The police warrant affidavit
Sun Oct 24, 2021, 01:30 PM
Oct 2021

Confirms it was a live round. Movie sets might have their own lingo, a live round to a police officer is a real round with a bullet, powder and casing. Not a blank.

gldstwmn

(4,575 posts)
38. Prop gun in Alec Baldwin accidental movie set shooting had live rounds, police say
Sun Oct 24, 2021, 02:36 PM
Oct 2021
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/alec-baldwin-fired-prop-gun-that-killed-crew-member-movie-set-authorities-2021-10-22/
Alec Baldwin was handed what was described as a safe "cold gun" on the set of his movie "Rust", but the prop gun contained live rounds when it was fired, according to details of the police investigation into the fatal shooting released on Friday.
(Snip)
The assistant director who handed Baldwin the prop gun did not know it contained live rounds, the affidavit by Santa Fe Sheriff's Department Detective Joel Cano said.

LisaL

(44,980 posts)
43. Again, "live rounds" in the movie language means
Sun Oct 24, 2021, 03:08 PM
Oct 2021

loaded with either a blank or a bullet.
As this was for the search warrant, how would the police even know if the bullet was real at the time of asking for search warrant?
I am assuming that the bullet is stuck in the shoulder of the director. It has to be removed and examined.

gldstwmn

(4,575 posts)
69. The language in the warrant is from law enforcement
Sun Oct 24, 2021, 07:20 PM
Oct 2021

and the emergency room most certainly knows what a bullet looks like.

ProfessorGAC

(65,325 posts)
63. It Was Announced As A "Cold Gun"
Sun Oct 24, 2021, 05:10 PM
Oct 2021

Not hot.
It does clearly call to question how carefully it was examined for it to be declared cold, but have a live round in it.
And, the physics suggest live round, because the same round went through the woman it killed & hit the director behind her. A hard was in a blank wouldn't have the mass or ballistics to pass completely through a human being. Could kill the person hit, but not hit 2 people.
I agree the information came out in partials, so got confusing. But, it sure seems a live round was involved.

gldstwmn

(4,575 posts)
39. TMZ has good sources with both the cops and the industry.
Sun Oct 24, 2021, 02:41 PM
Oct 2021

As much as I feel like I need a shower after reading their site, Harvey is a lawyer and knows better than to print this if it is unsubstantiated. I believe it.

Response to RandySF (Original post)

Response to Zeitghost (Reply #31)

MenloParque

(512 posts)
23. I don't understand
Sun Oct 24, 2021, 11:26 AM
Oct 2021

If the same firearm had multiple malfunctions as been reported, wouldn’t a Producer on the set he aware of this firearm issue? Why would this same problem firearm be considered SAFE? Why was the gun pointed at a Cinematographer and why was the trigger even pulled? Did this discharge happen during a live action take? If not, and the film wasn’t rolling, why would a problematic firearm be pointed at someone and the trigger pulled. So many questions at this time!

LisaL

(44,980 posts)
27. If firearm is empty, it can't fire anything.
Sun Oct 24, 2021, 12:39 PM
Oct 2021

The firearm was supposed to have been checked by multiple people before being given to Baldwin.
Baldwin was told the firearm was "cold" meaning it should have been empty. There were multiple firearms used in making of this movie.

MenloParque

(512 posts)
29. Interesting
Sun Oct 24, 2021, 12:53 PM
Oct 2021

Is it within protocol to point a verified cold firearm at a person behind camera and display incorrect trigger discipline and pull trigger when not IN ACTION ON THE SET? So many questions.

MenloParque

(512 posts)
74. Huh?
Mon Oct 25, 2021, 12:01 AM
Oct 2021

Whoa slow down there Jack! Show me where I said that I believe that Alec Baldwin should be charged.

Irish_Dem

(47,656 posts)
72. I have been reading that the protocol is to never point a gun at a person.
Sun Oct 24, 2021, 07:58 PM
Oct 2021

They can use various camera angles to make it look like the actor is pointing a gun at another actor.

Irish_Dem

(47,656 posts)
73. Right, why was the gun pointed at the cinematographer?
Sun Oct 24, 2021, 08:00 PM
Oct 2021

Doesn't make sense.

If they gun was supposed to look like it was pointed at the camera, there are ways to protect the camera people.

SYFROYH

(34,185 posts)
24. Waiting for the investigation to be complete befor casting asparagus.
Sun Oct 24, 2021, 12:26 PM
Oct 2021

I’ve heard and read so many conflicting details.

But someone is dead and another injured and it’s a preventable tragedy anyway you look at it.
 

marie999

(3,334 posts)
36. Three people are responsible for the death, the armorer, the AD, and Elec Baldwin.
Sun Oct 24, 2021, 01:48 PM
Oct 2021

Not one of them checked the weapon.

gldstwmn

(4,575 posts)
41. The actor doesn't check the weapon. It's supposed to be handed to him by the armorer
Sun Oct 24, 2021, 02:51 PM
Oct 2021

who checks the weapon and is supposed to be in custody of it at all times. For whatever reason it was handed to Alec Baldwin by the assistant director. I don't know if the armorer left with the rest of the crew in the labor dispute or what. The AD had a history of lax security on sets.
You seem invested on "Elec" being charged with something. What law did he break by not checking a cold gun on the set of a movie?

 

marie999

(3,334 posts)
42. The actor is the one that pulls the trigger.
Sun Oct 24, 2021, 03:02 PM
Oct 2021

He/she should check the weapon for their own peace of mind.

LisaL

(44,980 posts)
44. Actors are asked to do multiple takes.
Sun Oct 24, 2021, 03:09 PM
Oct 2021

Thus they rely on prop people to make sure everything is done right with the gun.
In this case that clearly didn't happen.

 

marie999

(3,334 posts)
49. Corrected my mistake. I still say it was as much his fault as anyone else, he pulled the trigger.
Sun Oct 24, 2021, 03:57 PM
Oct 2021
 

marie999

(3,334 posts)
58. He pulled the trigger without checking to see if the weapon was loaded.
Sun Oct 24, 2021, 04:50 PM
Oct 2021

Just because he is an actor doesn't excuse the fact that he killed someone. If a friend handed you a weapon and said it wasn't loaded would you take his word for it?

gldstwmn

(4,575 posts)
66. He was filming a movie.
Sun Oct 24, 2021, 07:08 PM
Oct 2021

I'm pretty sure negligent homicide refers to a death that occurs during the commission of a crime. Baldwin wasn't committing a crime. The district attorney seems to agree.

Crepuscular

(1,057 posts)
81. In several ways
Mon Oct 25, 2021, 04:59 PM
Oct 2021

If the stories that have described what happened are accurate, Baldwin was potentially negligent in several ways.

First and foremost, on a movie set, you don't ever, ever, point a gun, whether it's loaded or not loaded, real or what you think is only a prop, in the direction of another person. Reportedly in this case he pointed the gun at three people. Doesn't matter if he thought the gun was not loaded, you never, ever point any kind of a firearm at another person. If the gun has to be pointed directly at the camera, the set can be cleared and the camera operated by remote. Clearly, Baldwin pointed the gun at other people.

Secondly, on set, unless you are actually doing the take, you don't put your finger on the trigger and pull it. Again, doesn't matter if you think it's not loaded, the finger stays off the trigger until the moment the scene is being shot. In this case, Baldwin was supposedly practicing a cross draw and pointing the gun towards the camera, where there were three people. His finger should never have been on the trigger and it should never have been pulled.

Thirdly, given the historical period being portrayed, it's almost certain that the firearm being used was a single action revolver. This means that you can't just pull the trigger to make it fire. Instead, you have to cock the hammer each time you want to shoot the gun. Again, you never point a gun at another person and you don't cock the hammer until you are ready to shoot the scene. Cocking and decocking the hammer is an act that increases the potential for accidental discharges to occur, sometimes due to sweaty hands, etc, which cause the hammer to slip from the thumb and then fall on a loaded chamber, causing the firearm to discharge. Because of that potential, it should be hammered home (excuse the pun) to any talent handling the firearm that you don't cock and decock the hammer repeatedly. If it's cocked for the scene and you don't end up pulling the trigger, hand it to the armorer for decocking. In this case, Baldwin was allegedly practicing a cross draw but also had to have both drawn the gun, cocked the hammer, pointed it at the other people by the camera and pulled the trigger.

Those are three distinct acts, any of which could be considered negligent and cumulatively result in a major part of the blame falling on Baldwins shoulders, for this tragic event.

Response to Crepuscular (Reply #81)

 

Steelrolled

(2,022 posts)
60. I think you are right legally
Sun Oct 24, 2021, 04:58 PM
Oct 2021

but I think Baldwin is the least responsible, and will be given a pass.

I'm not an actor, but I can't imagine pointing a gun at someone and pulling the trigger without checking it personally.

doc03

(35,425 posts)
46. I seem to recall a Columbo or Hitchcock episode where
Sun Oct 24, 2021, 03:21 PM
Oct 2021

someone placed a loaded round in a prop gun.

MustLoveBeagles

(11,672 posts)
65. The Perry Mason series finale and one of the early revival movies dealt with this
Sun Oct 24, 2021, 06:14 PM
Oct 2021

S9 E30 The Case of the Final Fade-Out: Barry Conrad has become a major star with an oversized ego. At the last moment, he tells his producer, Jackson Sidemark, that he won't be signing a new contract. Conrad, then Sidemark, are killed giving Perry two clients back-to-back. (In this episode guns are a last minute replacement for knives)
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0673265/?ref_=tt_mv_close


Perry Mason: The Case of the Shooting Star (1986): An actor rigs a fake on-air shooting with the connivance of his friend, the show's host, but the practical joke goes horribly wrong when the gun, which he'd loaded with blanks, turns out to contain a live round.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091750/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_28

The movie is fresh in my mind as I watched it on YouTube a few weeks ago.



ecstatic

(32,770 posts)
78. Unbelievable. If true, they were reckless beyond belief.
Mon Oct 25, 2021, 10:15 AM
Oct 2021

The same gun should not have been used as both a prop and real gun. A real gun with live rounds should have been covered with bright red warning decals, holstered, and nowhere near the actual set.

If people were aware of that discrepancy they should have been raising hell to make sure that there was some sort of additional safety process in place.

Was alcohol involved? This story makes no sense.

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