Pissed Off at Elon Musk?

[MineralMan]

Don't buy a Tesla, then. There are other EVs if you want an EV.

Still planning to buy a Tesla? Then, don't complain about Elon Musk's whining about taxes and Bernie Sanders.

[fescuerescue]

1. Musk has probably done more to combat global warming, than any other human in history.

I'm surprised that doesn't buy him even a little bit of good will.

[Budi]

4. More than anyone in history!!?? "Without subsidies, there would be no Tesla"

No. He exploited a market by using the Tax write offs & subsidies.


From 2018:
Tesla's Main Product Isn't Cars, It's Subsidies
Tesla received $713 million in U.S. subsidies in Q3, compared to its $312 million profit.
https://realmoney.thestreet.com/investing/stocks/tesla-s-main-product-isn-t-cars-it-s-subsidies-14769263

Conclusion: In my view, without subsidies, there would be no Tesla.

As far as I'm concerned, Tesla's main product isn't the car, it's the subsidies. Without $713 million in quarterly subsidies from the United States alone, I don't think Tesla would be in business.

When you go out and buy a regular vehicle such as a Ford F-150, Chevrolet Silverado or RAM 1500, know this: Your taxes, and elevated price on this vehicle, go to keep Tesla from losing many hundreds of millions of dollars each quarter.
....

[Miguelito Loveless]

24. The story you cite is three years old

And Tesla cars have not been eligible for the last two years for the EV tax credit (a credit still available to Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, et al). The ZEV credit is what Tesla is paid by other automakers, (not the tax-payer) who don't make EVs, so they can keep selling ICE cars that pollute. That system was meant to encourage automakers to stop making polluting cars and make EVs, or face a fine.

Tesla did get a loan from the Dept of Energy back in 2013, but it was paid back in full, early, with interest. GM and Ford have yet to pay back the billions they were loaned in the bailout in 2009.

In Tesla's most recent quarter, ZEV was a fraction of its profit. It is the only American car company producing only EVs and is doing so at a profit. It as the only auto company to take the risk that the Big 3 refused to take until forced, and even now they drag their feet.

As to Musk, he is currently selling stock to pay his taxes on stock options, with a tax rate of around 53% (State and Federal).

That said, is Musk an asshole at time? Yes, he certainly is. But he has also pioneered mass market EVs in a manner no one else has. He has done what Wall Street "conventional wisdom" said was impossible.

[Budi]

34. Yes it is 3 yrs old. AND He's Now A TRILLIONARE!!

I have nothing but contempt for that fker.

[Miguelito Loveless]

49. He's worth around $250B

Which last I looked was not a trillion dollars. That is the current value of the stock he owns. I can understand people not liking Musk, but could we stick to factual assertions?

[CrackityJones75]

25. I mean....

I mean there have been solar panel companies that have been creating solutions for decades not to mention how many people that have been doing research to educate people like him who have monetized it.

Guy is smart but give me a fucking break.

[fescuerescue]

52. The subsidies were offered to achieve a government goal.

And he is the one that stepped up.

You didn't. I didn't. No one on this forum did.

Musk is the one that stepped up and make electric cars mainstream.

However, if you feel that subsidies were a bad idea, by all means take the politicians to task for offering them.

[Dorian Gray]

62. oh brother....

the fluffing going on is incredible.

He won't even read this. lol

[fescuerescue]

65. Of course not. why would he?

I doubt he hangs out here anymore than Biden, Clinton or other heroes.

[Redleg]

66. Most of us don't have the capital or connections

that Musk has. It would be much more difficult for one of us to start up such a company, even with generous help from Uncle Sam. I don't knock Musk for building EVs- he saw an opportunity and took it. I just don't see him as a great visionary for this. Other companies and other people have worked on this prior to Musk and they have met some degree of success. Musk's company has contributed to the overall knowledge about making EVs but they didn't invent the concept. I don't think that they've done anything revolutionary in EVs, but will keep an open mind on that as I get more information.

I am more concerned about Musk's rhetoric on taxes and on the government and its role in commerce. His enormous wealth also bothers me because it is far out of proportion to his contributions (or any person's contributions for that matter). Most of the rest of us take a wage or salary based on the "worth" of our job to the company or to the organization. Our wage or salary range is based around a linear relationship between "worth of the job" and pay rate the organization is willing to pay (which is based on internal and external labor market rates and the organization's decision to pay below, at, or above market). This isn't the way that executive pay is determined and that is why their pay seems quite out of line with their actual contributions. A billion dollars seems way out of proportion and 250 billion much worse. I understand much of his wealth is in the form of stock in his company but still....

[fescuerescue]

67. That's true

But there are 52 million, millionaires on this planet.

He's the one that stood up and began the electric car revolution.

Even if we take the position, he's doing nothing special, he isn't blocking anyone else from entering the market.

It's not like there are a thousand electric car makers out there.

[BannonsLiver]

11. Nonsense. But thanks for the laugh.

[fescuerescue]

50. Who would you nominate?

Seriously. I'm curious.

[JohnSJ]

12. While your assessment is correct, and he does donate a significant amount to various charities,

the fact is he is an arrogant jerk.

You may remember he falsely called a British diver who helped rescue trapped Thai soccer players in a cave a pedophile, and I suspect his motivation for that was because Musk was bragging how he could rescue them with no problem, and this person beat him to the punch. Time was of
the essence, and instead of being happy about the rescue, he called the person a pedophile.

Another reason a good number here are not thrilled with Musk is his opposition to organized labor, and has strongly condemned Biden's support of organized labor.

I suspect people here are upset with him currently because he implied in his latest tweet that things would be better if Bernie was no longer alive. It is typical Elon Musk callous comment.

As far as the argument that Musk and others are terrible people because they don't pay taxes, the problem there is Musk, but Congress not passing laws to get rid of the loopholes for the very wealthy.

In fact the argument about a wealth tax would probably not be necessary if they simply got rid of the loopholes that the very wealthy take advantage of.

[Casady1]

27. How do you propose

that congress will pass a law to fix this problem?

[JohnSJ]

28. Elect more Democrats not influenced by money, and get rid of the loopholes

Easier said than done

[Casady1]

29. How do you do that

with gerrymandering?

[JohnSJ]

31. Damn autocorrect, meant influenced by money. Start with Local and state offices. Also the Senate

and Governor should not be as influenced be Gerrymandering

What 2020 demonstrated is we can win through the blue wall, which used to be Democratic strongholds. We need to gain that back

[Casady1]

43. you are dreaming?

[JohnSJ]

44. What do you suggest, giving up?

[fescuerescue]

51. He does act jerky sometimes I agree

I don't know that this would change if he paid more tax though.

[JohnSJ]

53. It wouldn't

[Dorian Gray]

61. He has also

done a lot to create income inequity and is a petulant childish jerk.

Can't stand the guy. And the global warming battle is still being waged. We will see where he lands on that issue.

[JohnSJ]

2. Tesla's are an expensive car, even the model 3 standard range will cost you 41,990, and goes

up significantly for the performance model.

That price does not include taxes, and Tesla's do not qualify for the Federal Credit because they have reached their quota. That credit isn't for everyone either, it depends on your tax liability.

In addition, it is unlikely that those who live in apartments would by an all electric car, because currently most apartment owners wouldn't have facilities to install a charger.

[DBoon]

47. Consumer Reports: Average New-Car Price Tops $45,000, an All-Time High

The Tesla is not such an extreme outlier after all

https://www.consumerreports.org/car-pricing-negotiation/average-new-car-price-all-time-high-a4060089312/

[JohnSJ]

54. That is an inaccurate analysis. The prices right now are affected by the shortages due to the chip

crisis, and other factors contributing to those shortages. That is evidenced by the fact that prices on many cars are going for more than MSRP

Also compare apples with apples. The Tesla 3 is a relatively small car. Let’s compare it to a Camry hybrid, which starts at 27270. That is a 13000 dollar difference. Compare it to a bolt, whose MSRP is 33000, and is an all electric, with about the same range as a Tesla 3.

Average price is not an accurate reflection. The vast majority of people who are buying Tesla’s average income is over 140K.

I would say that 45K is a lot of money for a car for most households in this country whose average income from the US Dept of labor stats is around 65K

About 31% of households earned over 100K

In addition, auto sales tanked, but dealerships had great profits. That is because even though they had a smaller clientele pool, the mark-up over MSRP provided that boost in profits

That is why that “average new car price” is a skewed figure,

The people who were buying cars before the pandemic, to those buying now, are a different pool of buyers

and those paying over MSRP I would venture are in a higher income bracket

A Toyota Corolla which is about the same size as a Tesla 3 has an MSRP of around 20K. The hybrid version of the Corolla runs about 24K

That is a hell of a lot cheaper than a Tesla, with both cars essentially doing the same thing, going from point A to point B

Similar comparisons apply to Ford, GM, Hyundai, etc. models

The all electric Nissan is about a 28K

Also the bolts and leaf qualify for a federal tax credit, but Teslas no longer qualify because they have reached their quota, which makes them even more expensive than the competition for similar all electric vehicles

[lame54]

3. So, my only recourse is to not buy a car I could never afford in the first place

[Budi]

6. Pretty much!

I can't buy a Tesla or a Lambourghini either.

In fact I wouldn't buy either if I had the $$$ to do so. Cuz it's just a means of getting from point A, to point B.
There are more affordable & well performing EV's availible.

[JohnSJ]

14. That will show em......... LOL

[Hortensis]

39. "Recourse?" Ignore him. That's all.

[lame54]

63. Misuse of the word recourse...

Oops
Still - OP suggests Musk is above criticism
I call Bullshit(used correctly)

[Hortensis]

68. Lol. Of course he isn't. Certainly "BS" to think all men

aren't endowed with the right to be offended by anything and anyone that suits. MM was a bit off with that. A bit like believing loose rocks "shouldn't" roll downhill.

[leftstreet]

5. Where would he be without his gvt subsidies? n/t

[DBoon]

7. I can buy a Tesla and still complain about the jerk running the company

If we refused to buy from companies with bad politics, we'd be eating a whole lot of Ben and Jerry's and nothing else

[Lunabell]

32. Exactly.

I still go to McDonald's even if I hate the fact they exploit their workers and ceo's and shareholders siphon off more money than they deserve. I shop at Walmart. I can't afford publix prices and besides, the publix heirs are right-wing assholes. We are still allowed to complain.

[lagomorph777]

8. I have mixed feelings. I appreciate how he has transformed the image of EVs, green energy,

...and his work on make space travel cheaper and greener.

I am happy to subsidize the energy stuff.

On the other hand, he should pay taxes.

[JohnSJ]

15. Then talk to Congress about that, because they control the tax laws. Start with getting rid of the

loopholes

[lagomorph777]

21. +1000 It's more about loopholes than rates at this point.

I only blame the billionaires to the extent that they have the ear of Congress more than we do; they can buy the laws they want.

[JohnSJ]

22. True, and that is why we need a bigger majority in Congress, with representatives who are not

corrupted by money

[CrackityJones75]

26. Then I guess none of us should do the right thing

Especially if congress hasn’t mandated it.

[hunter]

9. If someone gave me a Tesla I'd give it away like a hot potato.

Elon Musk is a vile creature and his shit won't save the world or humanity.

[bigtree]

10. who agrees with the politics of everyone they purchase something from?

...how does that work in real life?

[JohnSJ]

17. A perfect example would be Facebook. I wonder how many here detest Zuckerberg, but still

use FB extensively?

[DBoon]

48. Ask Ted Kaczynski

He made a go of it for a while

[hunter]

56. I try not to be the bread and butter of corporations I find loathsome.

The traditional television industry -- cable, satellite, broadcast -- is something I quit more than a decade ago. I quit television news and opinion about twenty years ago. I never see television commercials.

I bought a new car once, in the 'eighties, when I was young and full of myself. I won't do that again. My favorite kind of car is a $1,000 junker I can fix up myself.

I avoid factory farm meat and dairy products as best I can, especially pork products. Mostly I end up buying those for the holidays, for carnivorous family who expect that. I'm not a militant vegan or vegetarian.

I won't use Microsoft or Apple products unless someone is paying me.

I'm a little torn about Google and Amazon, there's some small intersection there with my "real life" that I can't shake off.

Etc.

[48656c6c6f20]

13. X A-12, is gonna kick his ass

In about 17 years so I'll wait for that.

Damn you can't even add the kids name. I'd be double pissed.

X Æ A-12,

[lagomorph777]

23. That's the kid's name?

Jeez, that's mean! Why not just name him the fucking Prince symbol?

[Pantagruel]

16. Musk is gaming Bernie

Musk would love to lock in profits on those overpriced shares but would drive down the price selling large chunks without an excuse . He's using BS to provide him with a blameless reason to sell.

[JohnSJ]

19. Anything Musk sells I suspect would be able to take advantage of long term capital gains

[iemanja]

18. He's another rich hypocrite

Why should he be hands off?

[Scrivener7]

20. Is it time for random chastisements again already?

[Diablo del sol]

30. They really are cool cars

Tons of them on the road in Southern Cal, but Holy Moly do they have some entitled drivers.

In the past month I have witnessed drivers entering bike lanes and passing cars on the right, rolling up to four way stops with three cars at full stop, then turning left forcing two drivers who had right of way to slam on brakes, sitting in right lane pointing a bit left. (No blinker, can I go past them and turn right, nope, light turns green and driver cuts left and turns right) All Tesla drivers.

If I am going to put down 60k for a car I would be afraid of getting keyed based on the entitled driving from other Tesla owners.

[Lunabell]

33. He's an ass and I will complain about him.

As much as I want to.

[Budi]

35. K & R Funny how we select which millionares, billionares, & trillionares are cool & which are not.

Tesla wouldn't exist without its Taxpayer Funded Subsidies.

[Lunabell]

40. Well, I don't have a problem with anyone making tons of money.

I have a problem with them complaining about taxes when they use roads, bridges and other taxpayer funded things. It's antiAmerican and antiDemocratic.

[Diablo del sol]

41. It is funny, or not, that the two biggest CA to TX moves

Are led by two guys who got their start from Govt funding. Tesla and Oracle.

[Budi]

55. K & R Thank You for the reminder!

Tesla & Oracle, yup.

[USALiberal]

58. Lol, jealous I assume! Nt

[Hortensis]

36. Lol, Elon and those eager to be offended share a synergy that apparently

make them all happy because it's become routine.

Whatever. Musk's attention-seeking offenses are mostly amusing, eager anger less so. But again, whatever.

[ck4829]

37. I'm too poor to buy a Tesla, am I like outside of this equation then?

[MineralMan]

38. That's for you to decide, isn't it?

I'm just pointing out a paradox here.

[Torchlight]

42. I don't think there's a formal rules system in place regulating who people can be frustrated with.

Emotional reactions are just that- emotional. Attempting to regulate who people get pissed off at and what their reactions should be seems little more than a variation of spitting into the wind. More-so when those same regulations suggested have no real moral authority.

I also don't think people frustrated with him are actively considering the purchase of one of his products. But even if there is a line of consumers frustrated with him yet buying his product, I just don't see how lecturing others on their emotional reactions holds any real weight.

But that's just my own opinion.

[DBoon]

45. I'd rather people bought an electric car and help stop global warming

Than worry about making a statement about Elon Musk, or whether only the "affluent" can afford his cars.

Global warming is an end game catastrophe. Arrogant billionaires we can live with.

I personally witnessed the Bobcat fire. Preventing something like this is more important than showing off some arrogant billionaire:

?s=6

[MineralMan]

46. OK. This is not about whether EVs are a good idea. Of course they are.

This is about not making Elon Musk into some sort of hero. He's not that. He's a billionaire capitalist. He has worked every possible loophole to become one of the wealthiest people on the planet.

[hunter]

57. No, they are not a "good idea..."

... they are just a good alternative to the fossil fueled variety.

Which isn't saying much.

Just like all those hybrid natural gas "renewable energy" schemes are better than coal. "Better than coal" is a very low hurdle.

In a perfect world most people wouldn't need or desire cars.

I don't let perfection be the enemy of good, however cantankerous I seem, which is why I'm a hard core Democrat and not some sort of "Green," or "Socialist," but I do get very frustrated when people don't look at the math.

As the human population approaches 8 billion it's pretty obvious that we can't build cars and highways and parking lots for every human adult, even if these are electric cars.

[MineralMan]

59. There is not, nor will there be, a perfect world.

We will have too many people, most of whom have to go from one place to another. So, there will be vehicles to take them and their loads somewhere.

There is no perfect vehicle.

[hunter]

64. Walking is a good thing and it's written in our genes.

So let's build more walkable communities with good public transportation.

That's been the norm throughout human history.

Automobile culture is an aberration.

[Dorian Gray]

60. I think Elon is a petulant dick

and I would never buy a Tesla. He's always been an arrogant prick.... this isn't new.