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Eliot Rosewater

(31,121 posts)
Mon Nov 15, 2021, 10:23 PM Nov 2021

Luis Elizondo and why aliens are absolutely visiting us...

https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/politics/article/luis-elizondo-interview-2021

Luis Elizondo was instrumental in changing that.

In late 2017, he met with the freelance journalist Leslie Kean and revealed the existence of a $22 million (£16m) Pentagon programme investigating military reports of UFOs – a programme he had been in charge of since 2010. He had left the job the day before and decided to turn whistle-blower in the name of national security. As he put it in his resignation letter to secretary of defense Jim Mattis: “Bureaucratic challenges and inflexible mindsets continue to plague the department at all levels... The department must take serious the many accounts by the Navy and other services of unusual aerial systems interfering with military weapon platforms and displaying beyond next-generation capabilities... There remains a vital need to ascertain the capability and intent of these phenomena for the benefit of the armed forces and the nation.”
Yeah, aliens are visiting us. I have no doubt.




in 2014 and 2015 they encountered UAPs “almost daily”



Luis Elizondo: We know it’s not the US because the US has already come out and admitted it’s not us. So now let’s talk about the potential for it to be a foreign adversarial technology. Well, if that were the case, this would be the greatest intelligence failure that this country has ever faced, including that of 9/11. Because some country, for more than 70 years, has managed to be able to conduct operations with a technology that surpasses anything that we’ve ever had or currently have. And they’ve been able to operate in and around our restricted airspace unchallenged.


But the second reason is there’s a time aspect. I have in my possession official US government documentation that describes the exact same vehicle that we now call the Tic Tac [seen by the Nimitz pilots in 2004] being described in the early 1950s and early 1960s and performing in ways that, frankly, can outperform anything we have in our inventory. For some country to have developed hypersonic technology, instantaneous acceleration and basically transmedial travel in the early 1950s is absolutely preposterous.




Like Fox Mulder



And now there is no question about it. Understand the quy talking RAN our program, AATIP and resigned so he could come out and warn us.
152 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Luis Elizondo and why aliens are absolutely visiting us... (Original Post) Eliot Rosewater Nov 2021 OP
Instantaneous Acceleration? Disaffected Nov 2021 #1
Transmedial in that an object operates in air, water, space... Kid Berwyn Nov 2021 #4
Some accounts (including Navy reports) have the craft flying into and out of the water. lagomorph777 Nov 2021 #27
Absolutely amazing. CNN posted USN video... Kid Berwyn Nov 2021 #47
Splash! Splash! lagomorph777 Nov 2021 #48
BOAC pilots in 1954 reported the object changed shape as they watched... Kid Berwyn Nov 2021 #49
I wasn't familiar with that one; thanks for sharing. lagomorph777 Nov 2021 #50
You are welcome! Kid Berwyn Nov 2021 #120
Indeed, thank you! triron Nov 2021 #63
You are welcome! Here's why UFOs are "Serious Business." Kid Berwyn Nov 2021 #121
Darn, cant get it to play Eliot Rosewater Nov 2021 #55
Here's an alternate source with USN footage. Kid Berwyn Nov 2021 #60
Thanks Eliot Rosewater Nov 2021 #71
Pretty simple really, either humans have this capability or we dont, and if we dont... Eliot Rosewater Nov 2021 #58
Absolutely. Evidence must be real. Physical. Kid Berwyn Nov 2021 #61
Lonnie's was the ONE case Hynek couldnt get over, he really was stumped Eliot Rosewater Nov 2021 #88
LEM could only operate in space and the airless moon. Kid Berwyn Nov 2021 #116
This one is not old hat, thanks...I will remember it eventually but will watch now... Eliot Rosewater Nov 2021 #123
Now, that's the kind of illustration that destroys a story muriel_volestrangler Nov 2021 #127
Or the phenomenon takes a form that humans can relate to. Kid Berwyn Nov 2021 #129
Well, yes; consciously or unconsciously, they're making it up muriel_volestrangler Nov 2021 #130
The phenomenon has psychological components, certainly, as well as physical. Kid Berwyn Nov 2021 #131
You are correct BeerBarrelPolka Nov 2021 #134
Not if there's physical evidence. Kid Berwyn Nov 2021 #137
The information is the phenomena LunaSea Nov 2021 #144
Absolutely. The phenom is the message. Kid Berwyn Nov 2021 #151
Thanks for that. I had to look it up. LunaSea Nov 2021 #152
What is absolutely amazing is that Disaffected Nov 2021 #85
"Do I believe it? Not particularly." -- Donald J Trump Kid Berwyn Nov 2021 #100
"Spoken like someone who thinks they know all they need to know about everything." Disaffected Nov 2021 #111
Not really. Eyewitness testimony also provides information. Kid Berwyn Nov 2021 #112
More blurry blobs Disaffected Nov 2021 #115
Some of the best photos were taken by Rex Heflin, a government employee... Kid Berwyn Nov 2021 #119
Their goal is to make Americans as stupid as possible, to submit their will to one leader. TheBlackAdder Nov 2021 #41
Acceleration 'appears' instantaneous because it happens so quickly. triron Nov 2021 #62
The "Instant" Has To Be Defined ProfessorGAC Nov 2021 #73
There is a slight difference in the nuance of meaning of 'instantaneous' here. triron Nov 2021 #76
I'm With Ya! ProfessorGAC Nov 2021 #86
Seems pretty narrow minded to believe Earth is the only planet with life given the size MLAA Nov 2021 #2
Believing in the likelihood of alien civilizations elsewhere in the galaxy..... brooklynite Nov 2021 #5
Who says it's done in any reasonable amount of time? lagomorph777 Nov 2021 #28
Believe if you must but: Disaffected Nov 2021 #7
Comedian Kathleen Madigan does a bit where she wonders if aliens Hotler Nov 2021 #34
Right on MLAA Nov 2021 #38
I Think It's Closer To An Ant Farm ProfessorGAC Nov 2021 #74
The question of whether ET life exists is very different from the one of whether they Crunchy Frog Nov 2021 #56
I believe aliens are billionaires from other planets tenderfoot Nov 2021 #3
Thank you for that. LiberatedUSA Nov 2021 #6
People really do not understand how truly vast interstellar distances are. PoindexterOglethorpe Nov 2021 #8
Bogus elevator Nov 2021 #9
Very, very, very theoretically, as in, can't really happen. PoindexterOglethorpe Nov 2021 #10
Quit throwing up alien autopsies and fake moon landings. elevator Nov 2021 #30
Luis Elizondo is a total fraud. Saboburns Nov 2021 #35
It's a safe bet Mr Elizondo answered to a superior at the pentagon LunaSea Nov 2021 #72
Then you should tell Elizondo, cause he claims that he ran AATIP Saboburns Nov 2021 #75
Didn't offer a debate LunaSea Nov 2021 #79
Not from AATIP. All that came from AAWAP. Saboburns Nov 2021 #80
Then I wonder LunaSea Nov 2021 #84
Dr James Lacatski LunaSea Nov 2021 #94
The amount of shielding that would be needed makes PoindexterOglethorpe Nov 2021 #46
Why should they show you? elevator Nov 2021 #89
Gravity. roamer65 Nov 2021 #44
Most don't! Some scientist believe in ghosts! Lol! USALiberal Nov 2021 #83
Can you show the polling data. elevator Nov 2021 #90
Send me the best proof that Aliens are visiting earth!!! Nt USALiberal Nov 2021 #99
Google elevator Nov 2021 #102
Lol, you got nothing! Nt USALiberal Nov 2021 #105
LOL. I got plenty. But, why would I waste time posting it for you? elevator Nov 2021 #132
I think you mean "couldn't care less" lol! USALiberal Nov 2021 #133
No, I could care less, but I would have to really work on it. elevator Nov 2021 #141
Doing your own research? The Revolution Nov 2021 #149
LOL. Hardly anything this guy states is accurate. elevator Nov 2021 #150
I believe it's possible... electric_blue68 Nov 2021 #24
Yes, the universe is huge, unthinkably huge. PoindexterOglethorpe Nov 2021 #108
"we may very well be the first intelligent/technological species in our galaxy" lagomorph777 Nov 2021 #29
Yep. In this universe "Faster Than Light" is fantasy. hunter Nov 2021 #36
They are harvesting what they can before we destroy the planet. roamer65 Nov 2021 #11
We've certainly ruined this one in the last 100 years. MLAA Nov 2021 #26
I literally am. roamer65 Nov 2021 #39
Me too. MLAA Nov 2021 #42
.. roamer65 Nov 2021 #43
There is more between Heaven and Earth Horatio... BigmanPigman Nov 2021 #12
Not just stranger than we imagine, LunaSea Nov 2021 #19
That's more accurate. BigmanPigman Nov 2021 #21
Exactly. MLAA Nov 2021 #40
Lots of variations of this thought LunaSea Nov 2021 #96
"Not believing that some other being may be 'out there' is foolish and ignorant." Silent3 Nov 2021 #25
You are presenting strawman arguments. Disaffected Nov 2021 #54
Please, why is the 'burden of proof' on those making the claims? triron Nov 2021 #65
The burden of proof Disaffected Nov 2021 #81
Science assumes a paradigm for reality. That is dogma. triron Nov 2021 #122
"..a paradigm for reality" Disaffected Nov 2021 #128
Of course the burden of proof is on those making the claims. PoindexterOglethorpe Nov 2021 #109
That is a Disaffected Nov 2021 #118
Maybe at a certain level of intelligence we can be everywhere at once... hunter Nov 2021 #146
Your speculation is way more problematic than extraterrestrial spacecraft visits. triron Nov 2021 #147
How do you know I'm not a bicycle riding space alien? hunter Nov 2021 #148
Drive-by posting. All the 'splainers gotta 'splain consensus reality to all the misty-eyed dreamers, Gaugamela Nov 2021 #13
Those sure are some words. Orrex Nov 2021 #16
Thanks. What do you think? Nt Gaugamela Nov 2021 #18
Well, "consensus reality" is usually invoked when someone has no real evidence Orrex Nov 2021 #20
There are valid, at least to those who have it, reasons for not releasing elevator Nov 2021 #32
You're putting the burden upon me to disprove the claim, rather than upon the claimant Orrex Nov 2021 #51
Many people have come forward and given testimony. elevator Nov 2021 #92
How convenient for you to be able to assign my opinion to me. Orrex Nov 2021 #93
For the record. I don't believe in alien visitation. elevator Nov 2021 #103
Options 1 and 2 are credible Orrex Nov 2021 #136
Anyone proposing any kind of natural or weather phenomenon to explain elevator Nov 2021 #140
You are dismissing by fiat those explanations that contradict your assumption Orrex Nov 2021 #143
You erect straw men constantly. elevator Nov 2021 #145
If the aliens are looking for intelligent life on earth FuzzyRabbit Nov 2021 #14
Does he have a tattoo of the statue of liberty holding an assault rifle? progressoid Nov 2021 #15
I need a probe, anal this time Shellback Squid Nov 2021 #17
I was on a destroyer in the late 70's early 80's and left a page and a half describing something.. denbot Nov 2021 #22
Interesting info, thanks. Eliot Rosewater Nov 2021 #57
Flying Tic Tacs capable of instantaneous acceleration. Buns_of_Fire Nov 2021 #23
They're visiting and observing, clearly not 'invading'. Our technology is probably thousands of triron Nov 2021 #64
We need to grab 'em by the tentacles. LudwigPastorius Nov 2021 #139
Luis Elizondo & To The Stars Academy are a ham-fisted money grab outfit Saboburns Nov 2021 #31
Calling people names proves nothing. elevator Nov 2021 #33
And folksy anecdotes are usually bullshit. Act_of_Reparation Nov 2021 #67
Oh, there are a few alien graduate students doing field work here on earth... hunter Nov 2021 #37
Sen. Harry Reid thought it a matter of national security. Kid Berwyn Nov 2021 #45
For some reason every time I see his name, I think of Hector Elizondo Bucky Nov 2021 #52
This is where the "Twilight Zone" theme starts playing in my head. oasis Nov 2021 #59
And yet the SETI Institute has spent millions, and has not yet found alien life or intelligence andym Nov 2021 #53
SETI searches a limited amount of the stellar population and a limited type of signal (radio). triron Nov 2021 #66
That was interesting leftstreet Nov 2021 #68
Quantum Mech.--Bell's theorem doesn't allow instantaneous communication (no-communication theorem) andym Nov 2021 #77
Thank you for posting that. Disaffected Nov 2021 #87
SETI has only observed a tiny fraction of possible signal origins. elevator Nov 2021 #91
1 million years to populate the galaxy scipan Nov 2021 #69
Most interesting LunaSea Nov 2021 #95
You're welcome. scipan Nov 2021 #98
Humans have not been around for 2.2 million years. PoindexterOglethorpe Nov 2021 #126
Enjoying the absurd belief that we humans CrackityJones75 Nov 2021 #70
What does (rightfully) doubting alien visitors have to do with supposedly knowing... Silent3 Nov 2021 #104
Why is it rightfully? CrackityJones75 Nov 2021 #106
And there are credible folks that don't believe that we have been visited. Silent3 Nov 2021 #107
Sure absolutely. CrackityJones75 Nov 2021 #110
If there is one civilization for every 2,000 light years Philosophizing Fool Nov 2021 #78
Yeah but how long do we last? scipan Nov 2021 #97
Oh FFS, not this crap again! Nt USALiberal Nov 2021 #82
Brilliant argument! NT milestogo Nov 2021 #101
I don't believe we have been visited by aliens. marie999 Nov 2021 #113
And that is the way to state it, you dont "believe" , where as I "believe" that we may have been. Eliot Rosewater Nov 2021 #125
This message was self-deleted by its author USALiberal Nov 2021 #135
Get away from me with this personal attack Eliot Rosewater Nov 2021 #138
It has been his M.O. in most of his posts. elevator Nov 2021 #142
The truth is out there. Swede Nov 2021 #114
I find it impossible to believe that there aren't countless intelligent alien life forms highplainsdem Nov 2021 #117
Great point! And this does NOT mean they have visited us, but for ANYONE Eliot Rosewater Nov 2021 #124

Disaffected

(4,568 posts)
1. Instantaneous Acceleration?
Mon Nov 15, 2021, 11:58 PM
Nov 2021

Transmedial travel?? WTF is that???

"I Want to Believe" - yeah, belief it is alright.

lagomorph777

(30,613 posts)
27. Some accounts (including Navy reports) have the craft flying into and out of the water.
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 10:20 AM
Nov 2021

That's every bit as amazing as all the sudden accelerations.

Kid Berwyn

(14,953 posts)
47. Absolutely amazing. CNN posted USN video...
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 12:24 PM
Nov 2021

Opening 20: shows the UAP splash.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/business/2021/05/19/ufo-navy-video-jeremy-corbell-orig-jm.cnn

I don’t think we — nor the Russians, Chinese or any billionaire — knows how to do that.

Kid Berwyn

(14,953 posts)
49. BOAC pilots in 1954 reported the object changed shape as they watched...
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 12:36 PM
Nov 2021
Study of an Unusual Phenomenon Observed by BOAC Aircrew over Labrador, Newfoundland

June 29, 1954
Martin Shough

This classic observation was made by crew and passengers of a 4-engine Boeing Stratocruiser3 of the British Overseas Airways Corporation. Flight 510-196 was a luxury flight bound for London on the "champagne and caviar run", departing New York at 1703 local (2103 GMT) on June 29, 1954 with 51 passengers aboard. Four hours later at sunset, 19,000ft over Labrador en route for Goose Bay, an apparently huge shape-changing UAP and a swarm of small attendant objects was seen against the bright sky off the left wing. The strange display persisted for 18 minutes.

After a refuelling stop at Goose where they were met and questioned by US Air Force intelligence officers the crew proceeded to London, where the story rapidly appeared in national papers and magazines. Capt James R. Howard was filmed for BBC TV and cinema newsreels. It became big news and went around the world within days via the Associated Press syndicated wire. The standing of the witnesses, in particular 33-year-old Capt. Howard, a highly respected former RAF Squadron Leader with 7500 hours commercial flying on 256 Atlantic crossings to his credit at the time of the sighting, has never been called in question. They were convinced that their airliner was followed for 80 miles by a formation of solid flying objects under intelligent control. To this day the case is still hailed by many ufologists as one of the most significant unexplained cases.

Snip...



The report

Here is Capt Howard's first person account4 from the December 11, 1954, edition of the
British magazine
Everybody's Weekly:

WE WERE SHADOWED FROM OUTER SPACE

Maybe it wasn't exactly a flying saucer. What I saw, on a recent New York to London flight, was more of a flying arrow, I guess you'd have called it at one stage. It seemed to keep changing its shape as it flew beside me, very much like a jellyfish assumes varying patterns as it swims through the water. Or maybe the apparent changes in shape were due to the different angles we viewed it from as it banked and turned about five miles off.

Whatever it was - a giant flying wing, jellyfish or saucer - of these things I'm quite certain: It wasn't a trick of light or a figment of the imagination. It wasn't any sort of electrical, magnetic or natural phenomenon. And it certainly wasn't a mirage.

No, it was something real and substantial; something that kept station with me for eighty miles and only sheered off when I got a radio call from the Sabre-jet fighter which had been sent up from Goose Bay to intercept the thing. It was something - the idea gives me slight goose-pimples when I think of it - which was keeping my Boeing Stratocruiser, Centaurus, under observation.
The date was June 29 this year. Just before sunset. Over Labrador. The sky was crystal-clear.

Snip...

I counted, re-counted, counted again. Six. Always six. Sometimes there were three stretched out in front of the main thing and three behind. Sometimes five stretched out in line ahead and only one behind. I had the impression that just before I got round to counting them there were more than six, which ties in with Lee Boyd's idea that they were flying in and out of the large central object like aircraft entering and leaving a flight hangar.

Lee said, as though he didn't believe it himself: "There's a lot of Air Force traffic in and out of Goose Bay some days. Maybe it's a formation of fighters way out in the distance. Want me to call up Goose and check?".

Continues... PDF:

http://www.martinshough.com/aerialphenomena/BOAC%20aircrew%20sighting.pdf

I applaud the pilots and others in positions of responsibility who go on the record to report the fantastic, absurd and all the rest of these reports that can’t be explained with what we know now. It takes courage.

Kid Berwyn

(14,953 posts)
120. You are welcome!
Wed Nov 17, 2021, 01:37 PM
Nov 2021

Corporate McPravda hasn’t done a very good job covering the story, for some reason. Here’s a bit of history from US, Chilean and Argentine navy personnel:

Here's what USN Chief Delbert Newhouse filmed -- on dry land in 1952.



When a dozen luminous, disc-shaped objects flashed across a clear blue sky on July 2, 1952, near Tremonton, Utah, Navy Chief Delbert C. Newhouse pulled his car off the road, grabbed his 16mm movie camera and filmed what he knew was a bizarre sight.

Newhouse, who had more than 1,000 hours of aerial photography mission experience, shot 1,200 frames of one of the objects, which has been described as "two pie pans, one inverted on top of the other."

After rigorous examination of the 75-second film, Navy analysts concluded that the objects were not conventional aircraft, but some sort of "intelligently controlled" vehicles. They stopped short of calling them space vehicles. The Air Force, however, called them "possible birds."

Source: https://www.stripes.com/news/is-the-sky-falling-this-man-says-maybe-not-1.130358

With the Argentine armada in the International Geophysical Year of 1958...



The Trindade Island UFO Incidents and Photographs

Brent Raynes, Classic UFO Cases
original source | fair use notice

Summary: On January 16, 1958, while a Brazilian Navy ship known as the Almirante Saldanha sat anchored off the south coast of Trindade, a small rocky island located in the middle of the South Atlantic Ocean, it seems that a most remarkable event transpired.

On January 16, 1958, while a Brazilian Navy ship known as the Almirante Saldanha sat anchored off the south coast of Trindade, a small rocky island located in the middle of the South Atlantic Ocean, it seems that a most remarkable event transpired. Forty-eight (48) crew members and passengers onboard at the time were witnesses. What made the event even more memorable, besides the large number of eyewitnesses, were the remarkable photographs taken by a skilled civilian photographer at the time. The incident began at 12:15 p.m., when an airborne object was spotted approaching the island. The photographer, Almiro Barauna, described as a member of the Icarai Club for Submarine Hunting, was the official photographer assigned to this unit because of his skill in underwater photography. In October 1957, the island had become a scientific research station for oceanographic and meteorological studies for the International Geophysical Year (IGY). Before that it hadn’t been occupied since World War II, when it had been used as an American and Brazilian anti-submarine base.

In a statement made soon afterwards to the Jornal Do Brasil, a newspaper in Rio de Janeiro, Barauna described how he was up on deck when a Amilar Vieira and retired Air Force Captain Jose Teobaldo Viegas began pointing toward the sky, yelling about a bright object that was moving toward the island. Barauna was trying to see it when Lt. Homero Ribeiro, the ship’s dentist, came running excitedly in his direction, also pointing skyward and yelling about some kind of object. After about 30 seconds of looking, he was finally able to see it. By this time, the object was close to the island. Barauna was able to detect it on account of a flash it emitted. He described how it glittered at certain times, and he wasn’t certain if this was the reflection of sunlight or the object’s own light.

Barauna shot two pictures of the object just before it disappeared behind a certain Desejado Peak. After several seconds the object reappeared. It was closer, flying lower and faster, and moving in the opposite direction. He then shot his third photograph. This was followed by a fourth and a fifth attempt that proved unsuccessful on account of being pushed and nudged by others also trying to observe the UFO. As a consequence, those two photographs only contained the sea and the island.

The object was then flying back out to sea, from the general direction it had arrived from. For a brief time it seemed to hang in mid-air. This was when Barauna shot his last picture, which had also been the last one on the film. About 10 seconds later, the UFO began to move off into the distance again and soon disappeared from sight.

The object was described as metallic looking, dark gray in color, was solid-looking but was surrounded by a greenish, phosphorescent haze or mist. There was also a ring around its mid- section that gave it an appearance similar to the planet Saturn.

Continues...

http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc644.htm

The Chilean Navy in 2014



Chilean Navy helicopter pilot shoots video of UFO

BY MCCLATCHY FEBRUARY 7, 2018, 8:03 PM

On Nov. 11, 2014, a Navy captain and technician were on a routine daytime patrol mission flying north along the Chilean coast, west of Santiago, and filmed an unidentified flying object.

Read more here: https://www.kansascity.com/news/nation-world/article125629429.html#storylink=cpy

Video here: https://www.charlotteobserver.com/latest-news/article125658529.html

Amazing universe, ours.

Kid Berwyn

(14,953 posts)
121. You are welcome! Here's why UFOs are "Serious Business."
Wed Nov 17, 2021, 01:43 PM
Nov 2021
Mantell, Moncla, Wilson and Valentich.

The first three were pilots, officers in the United States armed forces. The fourth name was a young Australian air cadet.

Each lost their life in association with UFOs. There likely are others. Here's a bit on them:

Thomas Mantell





Mantell Case (1948)

EXCERPT...

Mantell was an experienced pilot; his flight history consisted of 2,167 hours in the air, and he had been honored for his part in the Battle of Normandy during World War II.

On 7 January 1948, Godman Field at Fort Knox, Kentucky received a report from the Kentucky Highway Patrol of an unusual aerial object near Maysville, Kentucky. Reports of a westbound circular object, 250 feet (76 m) to 300 feet (91 m) in diameter, were received from Owensboro, Kentucky, and Irvington, Kentucky.

At about 1:45 p.m., Sgt Quinton Blackwell saw an object from his position in the control tower at Fort Knox. Two other witnesses in the tower also reported a white object in the distance. Base commander Colonel Guy Hix reported an object he described as "very white," and "about one fourth the size of the full moon ... Through binoculars it appeared to have a red border at the bottom ... It remained stationary, seemingly, for one and a half hours." Observers at Clinton County Army Air Field in Ohio described the object "as having the appearance of a flaming red cone trailing a gaseous green mist" and observed the object for around 35 minutes. Another observer at Lockbourne Army Air Field in Ohio noted, "Just before leaving it came to very near the ground, staying down for about ten seconds, then climbed at a very fast rate back to its original altitude, 10,000 feet, leveling off and disappearing into the overcast heading 120 degrees. Its speed was greater than 500 mph in level flight."

Four P-51 Mustangs of C Flight, 165th Fighter Squadron Kentucky Air National Guard already in the air—one piloted by Mantell—were told to approach the object. Blackwell was in radio communication with the pilots throughout the event.

One pilot's Mustang was low on fuel, and he quickly abandoned his efforts. Air Force Captain Edward J. Ruppelt (the first head of Project Blue Book) notes that there was some disagreement amongst the air traffic controllers as to Mantell's words as he communicated with the tower: some sources reported that Mantell had described an object "which) looks metallic and of tremendous size," but, according to Ruppelt in The Report on Unidentified Flying Objects, others disputed whether or not Mantell actually said this.

The other two pilots accompanied Mantell in steep pursuit of the object. They later reported they saw an object, but described it as so small and indistinct they could not identify it. Mantell ignored suggestions that the pilots should level their altitude and try to more clearly see the object.

Only one of Mantell's companions, Lt. Albert Clemmons, had an oxygen mask, and his oxygen was in low supply. Clemmons and a Lt. Hammond called off their pursuit at 22,500 feet (6,900 m). Mantell continued to climb, however. According to the Air Force, once Mantell passed 25,000 feet (7,600 m) he supposedly blacked out from the lack of oxygen (hypoxia), and his plane began spiraling back towards the ground. A witness later reported Mantell's Mustang in a circling descent. His plane crashed at a farm south of Franklin, Kentucky, on the Tennessee-Kentucky state line.

Firemen later pulled Mantell's body from the Mustang's wreckage. His wristwatch had stopped at 3:18 p.m., the time of his crash. Meanwhile, by 3:50 p.m. the UFO was no longer visible to observers at Godman Field. The Mantell Incident was reported by newspapers around the nation, and received significant news media attention. A number of sensational rumors were also circulated about Mantell's crash. Among the rumors were claims that Mantell's fighter had been shot down by the UFO he was chasing, and that the Air Force covered up evidence proving this. Another rumor stated that Mantell's body was found riddled with strange holes. However, no evidence has ever surfaced to substantiate any of these claims. In 1956, Ruppelt wrote that the Mantell Crash was one of three "classic" UFO cases in 1948 that would help to define the UFO phenomenon in the public mind, and would help to convince Air Force intelligence specialists that UFOs were a "real", physical phenomenon (Ruppelt 30). The other two sightings were the Gorman Dogfight and the Chiles-Whitted UFO Encounter.

CONTINUED...

http://www.mufon.com/mantell-case---1948.html



Felix Moncla and Robert Wilson



USAF Radar operator stated he watched the aircraft approach the UFO; then saw the two blips merge into one return that quickly moved off the screen.



Marksville Weekly News

Avoyelles Parish has connections to a UFO mystery that goes back 49 years. Gordon Heath from Surrey, British Columbia was in Marksville recently to investigate the background of Lt. Felix E. Moncla who disappeared along with another crew member, Second Lt. Robert L. Wilson, over Lake Superior on Monday, November 23, 1953.

According to Heath, who is a UFO hobbyist, Moncla was on temporary assignment at Kinross Air Force Base in ...(sic. Michigan)... when he was sent to identify and unidentified craft over the Soo Locks, which is restricted airspace. Moncla, in an F-89C, pursued the craft for about 30 minutes flying at 30,000 feet over the middle of Lake Superior. He was flying about 500 mph when he was instructed by ground radar to descend to 7,000 feet.

When the unidentified craft was finally on radar it was noted that the two radar images, the UFO and the Air Force jet, were very close and at some point they intersected but only one remained. Heath says that the unidentified craft flew north and disappeared from radar.

Lt. Moncla's jet mysteriously disappeared without a trace.

http://www.nuforc.org/mancla.html


No remains of the crew or wreckage of the F-89C have been found.



Frederick Valentich

His late father holds the missing flyer's picture:





Delta Sierra Juliet? Do you read?

Boats and aircraft have found no trace of the 20-year old Australian pilot who disappeared with his plane on Saturday night after radioing that he was being chased by a UFO. Frederick Valentich was on a 125 mile training flight in his single engine Cessna 182 along the coast of Bass Strait when he told air traffic controllers in Melbourne that he was being buzzed by a UFO with 4 bright lights about 1000 feet above him.

Controllers said his last message was taped and was: "It's approaching from due east towards me. It seems to be playing some sort of game... flying at a speed I can't estimate. It's not an aircraft. It's...It is flying past. It is a long shape. I cannot identify more than that. It's coming for me right now." A minute later: "It seems to be stationary. I'm also orbiting and the thing is orbiting on top of me also. It has a green light and a sort of metallic light on the outside." Valentich then radioed that his engine was running roughly. His last words were: "It is not an aircraft."

The Australian Air Force said it had received 11 reports from people along the coast who said they saw UFOs on Saturday night, but the Transport Department was skeptical. Ken Williams, a spokesman for the department, said, "It's funny all these people ringing up with UFO reports well after Valentich's disappearance. It seems people often decide after the event, they too had seen strange lights. But although we can't take them too seriously, we can never discourgae such reports when investigating a plane's disappearance."

SNIP...

ACTUAL TRANSCRIPTION OF MELBOURNE FLIGHT SERVICE

The transcript portion of the communication between Valentich and Melbourne Flight Service as released by the Australian Department of Transport follows: (FS - Flight Service, DSJ - Frederick Valentich aircraft designation).

1906:14 DSJ Melbourne, this is Delta Sierra Juliet. Is there any known traffic below five thousand?

FS Delta Sierra Juliet, no known traffic.

DSJ Delta Sierra Juliet, I am, seems to be a large aircraft below five thousand.

1906:44 FS Delta Sierra Juliet, What type of aircraft is it?

DSJ Delta Sierra Juliet, I cannot affirm, it is four bright, it seems to me like landing lights.

1907 FS Delta Sierra Juliet.

1907:31 DSJ Melbourne, this is Delta Sierra Juliet, the aircraft has just passed over me at least a thousand feet above.

FS Delta Sierra Juliet, roger, and it is a large aircraft, confirmed?

DSJ Er-unknown, due to the speed it's travelling, is there any air force aircraft in the vicinity?

FS Delta Sierra Juliet, no known aircraft in the vicinity.

1908:18 DSJ Melbourne, it's approaching now from due east towards me.

FS Delta Sierra Juliet.

1908:41 DSJ (open microphone for two seconds.)

1908:48 DSJ Delta Sierra Juliet, it seems to me that he's playing some sort of game, he's flying over me two, three times at speeds I could not identify.

1909 FS Delta Sierra Juliet, roger, what is your actual level?

DSJ My level is four and a half thousand, four five zero zero.

FS Delta Sierra Juliet, and you confirm you cannot identify the aircraft?

DSJ Affirmative.

FS Delta Sierra Juliet, roger, stand by.

1909:27 DSJ Melbourne, Delta Sierra Juliet, it's not an aircraft it is (open microphone for two seconds).

1909:42 FS Delta Sierra Juliet, can you describe the -er- aircraft?

DSJ Delta Sierra Juliet, as it's flying past it's a long shape (open microphone for three seconds) cannot identify more than it has such speed (open microphone for three seconds). It's before me right now Melbourne.

1910 FS Delta Sierra Juliet, roger and how large would the - er - object be?

1910:19 DSJ Delta Sierra Juliet, Melbourne, it seems like it's stationary. What I'm doing right now is orbiting and the thing is just orbiting on top of me also. It's got a green light and sort of metallic like, it's all shiny on the outside.

FS Delta Sierra Juliet

1910:46 DSJ Delta Sierra Juliet (open microphone for three seconds) It's just vanished.

FS Delta Sierra Juliet

1911 DSJ Melbourne, would you know what kind of aircraft I've got? Is it a military aircraft?

FS Delta Sierra Juliet, Confirm the - er ~ aircraft just vanished.

DSJ Say again.

FS Delta Sierra Juliet, is the aircraft still with you?

DSJ Delta Sierra Juliet; it's (open microphone for two seconds) now approaching from the south-west.

FS Delta Sierra Juliet

1911:50 DSJ Delta Sierra Juliet, the engine is rough-idling. I've got it set at twenty three twenty-four and the thing is coughing.

FS Delta Sierra Juliet, roger, what are your intentions?

DSJ My intentions are - ah - to go to King Island - ah - Melbourne. That strange aircraft is hovering on top of me again (open microphone for two seconds). It is hovering and it's not an aircraft.

FS Delta Sierra Juliet.

1912:28 DSJ Delta Sierra Juliet. Melbourne (open microphone for seventeen seconds).

SOURCE: http://www.ufocasebook.com/australianpilot.html



That’s why I wish the subject were studied more and ridiculed less.

Eliot Rosewater

(31,121 posts)
58. Pretty simple really, either humans have this capability or we dont, and if we dont...
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 02:20 PM
Nov 2021

Yeah.

PS

The reason I wont link to stories of people who claim to have been abducted from their beds or while asleep or sleepy is I am certain most of those are "sleep paralysis." Which I have had and my experiences were so real I would easily pass a lie detector test describing them.

You are paralyzed and see and hear shit that is real, or at least you think it is. I have never been abducted, so to speak, in one of these episodes but I have seen people in my bedroom that I jumped out of bed at some point to defend myself from.

But it wasnt real, it was sleep paralysis...

Mine were always when I had gone without REM sleep for long periods of time due to medications.


https://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/sleep-paralysis

Kid Berwyn

(14,953 posts)
61. Absolutely. Evidence must be real. Physical.
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 06:40 PM
Nov 2021

And relative. Like an incomprehensible narrative.

FTR: I don't know what UFOs are or what is impossible.

I DO know UFO reports exist — including eyewitness accounts and cases that left physical traces, such as burned bushes, radar tracks and photographs.

Probably old hat for you, Eliot Rosewater, this story what Socorro Police Sergeant Lonnie Zamora experienced...





In late afternoon on Friday, April 24, 1964, Socorro Police Sergeant Lonnie Zamora departed his cruiser on a rough and rocky dirt road to investigate an unidentified flying object which came to rest in an arroyo south of Socorro. The desolate, undeveloped area was primarily made up of mesquite and creosote bushes. What Sergeant Zamora witnessed at approximately 5:45 p.m. was an “egg shaped craft” traveling into Socorro from the south. It was later reported and documented as having been witnessed (in flight) by 5 tourists traveling through Socorro. Zamora, in an interview following the incident, stated that he witnessed a bluish flame and a loud roar coming from the direction of the arroyo.

Zamora approached the area where he believed the craft had landed. Zamora later stated that he had first seen the object from about 150 yards and believed it to be a car or some sort of vehicle in need of assistance. Zamora then radioed the Sheriff’s Office about a possible accident he would be investigating. Zamora then contacted New Mexico State Police Sergeant Samuel Chavez, someone who Zamora trusted to assist in the investigation. After requesting the assistance of NMSP Sergeant Chavez, Zamora once again began approaching the object.

At about 50 feet from the object, Zamora noted seeing landing gear and a red insignia which he later drew for authorities. Zamora then noted bright blue flames and another loud roar until ultimately the object began lifting away from its resting place. Following the incident, many local residents visited the sight and witnessed not only burned bushes but also landing gear depressions in the ground. This incident has been recorded in many newspapers and magazine articles as well as written about in many books.

Source: https://www.socorronm.org/attractions/socorro-landing-a-ufo-story/

Others nearby that day also reported an egg shaped object: https://sentinel63.wordpress.com/2016/11/24/desert-encounter-with-the-unknown/





(Zamora) described a large white craft, similar in size and shape to a propane storage tank. The craft rested on (four) legs that extended down into the desert floor. On the side of the craft was a red insignia of a horizontal line with an upwards-facing arrow contained under an arch. The most startling feature of the sighting was the beings that he saw enter the craft.

https://tilln.com/season-4/lonnie-zamora-ufo-sightings-like-this-will-blow-your-mind/

The story so far is an intelligence manipulating matter, space and time in ways we find impossible.
Whatever or whoever “they” or it or us or the universe or the multiverse themselves may be just screwing with us. You know, putting on a show to make us remember. And the moral of that story may contain enough information to manipulate those who hear it into believing in things or behaving in ways they would not have done previously.

Jacques Vallee calls “those” who are behind that part of the phenomenon, the ones who make these things appear before our eyes, “Messengers of Deception.” They have an agenda. What’s on it, we can only guess.


What our X-Ray space telescope revealed:



Astronomers have captured the movement of the expanding remains of an exploded star. Chandra data taken over 14 years show a blast wave and debris moving away from the site of the explosion. The graphics present the entire hand-shaped nebula observed by Chandra, which was produced by the pulsar left behind after the explosion. The close-ups highlight movement in the explosion’s blast wave in a region located near one of the “fingertips”. The fixed squares enclose clumps of magnesium and neon that likely formed in the star before it exploded and shot into space once the star blew up. Astronomers estimate that it has slowed down from the initial explosion after striking a neighboring gas cloud, but is still moving at nearly 9 million miles per hour. Credit: Credit: NASA/SAO/NCSU/Borkowski et al.

Eliot Rosewater

(31,121 posts)
88. Lonnie's was the ONE case Hynek couldnt get over, he really was stumped
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 10:13 PM
Nov 2021

Now the last show I saw on this was the govt saying it was a lunar lander.

?odnHeight=612&odnWidth=612&odnBg=FFFFFF

and it would resolve the issue of the indents in the land, the triangle...and until the show reminded me what Lonnie said what happened at the end, it taking off and flying away at an EXTREME speed, I was willing to maybe accept this explanation.

But either we believe what Lonnie said, all of it, or we dont.

Thanks for the post.

Kid Berwyn

(14,953 posts)
116. LEM could only operate in space and the airless moon.
Wed Nov 17, 2021, 01:21 PM
Nov 2021

The LEM’s rockets were designed for the moon’s 1/6th G. No way was it flying, manned, at White Sands. Besides, after taking off from the moon, it used the Descent Stage as a launch pad. Lonnie, Hynek, USAF, and the circus would have an artifact to study.



Again, old hat to you, but another of J Allen Hynek’s faves was Father Gill’s report of 1959, a Close Encounter of the Third Kind with about 30 witnesses.



Papua New Guinea Sighting (1959)

William B. Gill, an Anglican priest with a mission in Bosinai, Papas New Guinea, observed craft-like UFOs — one with Humanoid figures on top — on two consecutive evenings, June 26-27, 1959. About twenty-five natives, including teachers and medical technicians, also observed the phenomena. They “signaled” the humanoids and received an apparent response. This was one of sixty UFO sightings within a few weeks in the New Guinea area.

Snip...

As indicated by his notes, Gill saw a bright white light in the north western sky. It appeared to be approaching the mission and hovering about 100 metres up. Eventually 38 people, including Gill, teachers Steven Gill Moi and Ananias Rarata, and Mrs Nessle Moi, gathered to watch the main UFO, which looked like a large, disc-shaped object. It was apparently solid and circular with a wide base and narrower upper deck. The object appeared to have four ‘legs’ underneath it. There also appeared to be about four ‘panels’ or ‘portholes’ on the side of the object, which seemed to glow a little brighter than the rest. At a number of intervals the object produced a shaft of blue light which shone upwards into the sky at an angle of about 45 degrees.

What looked like ‘men’ came out of the object, onto what seemed to be a deck on top of it. There were four men in all, occasionally two, then one, then three, then four. The shaft of blue light and the ‘men’ disappeared. The object then moved through some clouds. There were other UFO sightings during the night. Gill described the weather as variable sky scattered clouds to clear at first, becoming overcast after. He estimated the height of the clouds at about 600 meters. The first sighting over the sea, according to Rev. Gill, seemed to be about 150 metres above the water all times. The main UFO was clearly visible and seemed mostly stationary during the twenty-five minutes of observation.

Astonishingly, the aerial visitor put in a repeat performance the following night, 27 June. Gill prepared another statement.

‘Large UFO first sighted by Annie Laurie at 6 p.m. in apparently same position as last night (26/6/59) only seemed a little smaller, when W.B.G. saw it at 6.02 p.m. I called Ananias and several others and we stood in the open to watch it. Although the sun had set it was still quite light for the following fifteen minutes. We watched figures appear on top four of them, no doubt that they are human. Possibly the same object that I took to be the “Mother” ship last night. Two smaller UFOs were seen at the same time, stationary.

One above the hills west, another over- head. On the large one two of the figures seemed to be doing something near the centre of the deck, were occasionally bending over and raising their arms as though adjusting or “setting up” something (not visible). One figure seemed to be standing looking down at us (a group of about a dozen). I stretched my arm above my head and waved. To our surprise the figure did the same. Ananias waved both arms over his head then the two outside figures did the same. Ananias and self began waving our arms and all four now seemed to wave back. There seemed to be no doubt that our movements were answered. All mission boys made audible gasps (of either joy or surprise, perhaps both).

Continues...

https://closeencounterproject.wordpress.com/papua-new-guinea-sighting/

More...

https://www.theblackvault.com/casefiles/father-gill-1959-papua-new-guinea-ufo-sighting/



Here’s audio of a lecture he made years later in Australia:





Eliot Rosewater

(31,121 posts)
123. This one is not old hat, thanks...I will remember it eventually but will watch now...
Wed Nov 17, 2021, 02:51 PM
Nov 2021

As in I am sure I knew of it in the past.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,361 posts)
127. Now, that's the kind of illustration that destroys a story
Wed Nov 17, 2021, 03:46 PM
Nov 2021

Pretending that these amazing beings, who can completely overcome all the laws of physics that we know, have, by an amazing coincidence, evolved into a bipedal form with a round torso, 2 arms and a round head, just like us, and are the same kind of size as us too, just shows the storyteller has a profound lack of imagination.

Kid Berwyn

(14,953 posts)
129. Or the phenomenon takes a form that humans can relate to.
Wed Nov 17, 2021, 04:36 PM
Nov 2021


How UFO Reports Change With the Technology of the Times

Fears of Zeppelins, rockets and drones have replaced the “celestial wonders” of ancient times


Greg Eghigian, Zócalo Public Square
Smith Sonia Magazine, February 1, 2018

In 1896, newspapers throughout the United States began reporting accounts of mysterious airships flying overhead. Descriptions varied, but witnesses frequently invoked the century’s great technological achievements. Some sources reported dirigibles powered by steam engines. Others saw motorized, winged crafts with screw propellers. Many recalled a flying machine equipped with a powerful searchlight.

As technologies of flight evolve, so do the descriptions of unidentified flying objects. The pattern has held in the 21st century as sightings of drone-like objects are reported, drawing concern from military and intelligence officials about possible security threats.

While puzzling over the appearance of curious things overhead may be a constant, how we have done so has changed over time, as the people doing the puzzling change. In every instance of reporting UFOs, observers have called on their personal experiences and prevailing knowledge of world events to make sense of these nebulous apparitions. In other words, affairs here on earth have consistently colored our perceptions of what is going on over our heads.

Reports of weird, wondrous, and worrying objects in the skies date to ancient times. Well into the 17th century, marvels such as comets and meteors were viewed through the prism of religion—as portents from the gods and, as such, interpreted as holy communications.

By the 19th century, however, “celestial wonders” had lost most of their miraculous aura. Instead, the age of industrialization transferred its awe onto products of human ingenuity. The steamboat, the locomotive, photography, telegraphy, and the ocean liner were all hailed as “modern wonders” by news outlets and advertisers. All instilled a widespread sense of progress—and opened the door to speculation about whether objects in the sky signaled more changes.

CONTINUES…

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/how-ufo-reports-change-with-technology-times-180968011/

“Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.” — Albert Einstein

muriel_volestrangler

(101,361 posts)
130. Well, yes; consciously or unconsciously, they're making it up
Wed Nov 17, 2021, 05:09 PM
Nov 2021

which makes this about psychology, not about aliens from other worlds.

Kid Berwyn

(14,953 posts)
131. The phenomenon has psychological components, certainly, as well as physical.
Wed Nov 17, 2021, 05:30 PM
Nov 2021

The thing is: Ideas don’t cause car engines and radios to stop. Ideas don’t leave dents in the ground or busted branches on trees. Ideas don’t show up on film and radar. Ideas don’t leave burns on people. The UFO phenomenon has and does.

For example, Radar-Visual cases, where eyewitnesses have their testimony supported by radar records. Here’s an excellent example from Michigan in 1994:



Retired meteorologist shares his account of 1994 West Michigan UFO sightings

by Meteorologist Will Haenni | Newschannel 3Thursday, September 3rd 2020

KALAMAZOO, Mich. — "They were just moving so fast, and two more started coming into play there. I really had little time to describe where they were before they had moved and jumped again," said Jack Bushong, a retired meteorologist describing what he saw on radar the night of March 8, 1994.

Bushong spent his career working for the National Weather Service. On the night of March 8, 1994, he was manning the National Weather Service office by himself in Muskegon on a cold but routine night. The NWS no longer has an office or radar there after the government forecasting agency went through modernization and reorganization in the mid-90s.

Snip...

You could pretty much use it like a spotlight," Bushong said when describing the operation of the radar at the time. "I had two cranks to bring it up or down, or side to side. You pretty much sent it out searching for weather: any type of rain, sleet snow; or hail is what we were usually looking for when we took it off of automatic mode.”

Bushong recounts the object first appeared alone on radar returns. "It started as one," he said. "The object was coasting at about 100 miles per hour."

He said as he was watching the object, it stopped and started hovering. "And then it shot up, about 5,000 feet, then 10,000 feet I was getting it, just straight up," Bushong said. "At this point, the police officer was saying that he was seeing the same thing with that same object."

"It was almost as if, it was like it was saying to me, 'hey, I know you can see me,'" Bushong said. "Until that one got up to about 30, 40 thousand feet, and finally I saw it."

Continues...

https://wwmt.com/news/local/retired-meteorologist-shares-his-account-of-1994-west-michigan-ufo-sightings



As for the nature of the psychology, it looks to me like classic storytelling.

Kid Berwyn

(14,953 posts)
137. Not if there's physical evidence.
Wed Nov 17, 2021, 09:40 PM
Nov 2021

Evelyn Trent saw a UFO and notified her husband Paul, who photographed the object. She also reported that she had seen other UFOs.

“It was the most beautiful thing I had ever seen.”





Classic case combines the two: psychology and physical interaction. Paul Trent didn’t like to talk about the subject, but said he didn’t know what she had seen at other times, but he photographed what they saw that day in 1950.

https://www.oregonlive.com/history/2017/10/famous_mcminnville_ufo_photos.html

https://saucerco.com/blogs/saucer-encounters/mcminnville-ufo-photos

The impact on our psychology may be the purpose of UFOs. Their impact on our critical faculties leads people to change the culture and society.



“I don’t think there is such a thing as “the flying saucer phenomenon.” I think it has three components and we have to deal with them in different ways.

First, there is a physical object. That may be a flying saucer or it may be a projection or it may be something entirely different. All we know about it is that it represents a tremendous quantity of electromagnetic energy in a small volume. I say that based upon the evidence gathered from traces, from electromagnetic and radar detection and from perturbations of the electromagnetic fields such as Dr. Claude Poher, the French space scientist, has recorded.

Second, there’s the phenomenon the witnesses perceive. What they tell us is that they’ve seen a flying saucer. Now they may have seen that or they may have seen an image of a flying saucer or they may have hallucinated it under the influence of microwave radiation, or any of a number of things may have happened. The fact is that the witnesses were exposed to an event and as a result they experienced a highly complex alteration of perception which caused them to describe the object or objects that figure in their testimony.

Beyond those — the physical phenomenon and the perception phenomenon — we have the third component, the social phenomenon. That’s what happens when the reports are submitted to society and enter the cultural arena. That’s the part which I find most interesting."

SOURCE: http://integralnews.blogspot.com/2008/01/jacques-vallees-integral-approach-to.html

Jacques Vallee is the person, IMO, who best understands the import of the phenomenon.

LunaSea

(2,895 posts)
144. The information is the phenomena
Thu Nov 18, 2021, 07:09 AM
Nov 2021

Vallee once illustrated the idea in a passage describing how
humans go into a darkened room, view shadows projected onto
a wall and walk out having had a very visceral emotional
experience creating memories they then can carry with
them for the rest of their lives.

Looking through Vallees lens as a computer/information scientist
suggests that there's something going on that is far weirder and
more complex that the notion of little green men from some
impossibly distant star.

Although just the idea of little green men from faraway
is powerfully stimulating to the imagination of those naked apes (ever dependent on the
balance of a few key brain chemicals to even share the same reality..) who
are already wired to pursue mystery.

Kid Berwyn

(14,953 posts)
151. Absolutely. The phenom is the message.
Fri Nov 19, 2021, 01:58 AM
Nov 2021

Thank you for putting it into words so precisely, LunaSea.

The system changes with a transfer of information.





THE FLYING SAUCER

by T/Sgt Barnes
March 1950

Hearing tales of little men
and speeding ships on high.
Around me all most every day,
I cast a weary eye.

Today I saw men gathered
around the hangar door.
They said they saw a Saucer.
A tiny ship they swore.

They pointed to the cloudless sky.
“Past Vapor Trails”, they sigh,
I saw a faroff something,
Shining in the sky.

We watched it hard, it seemed to move
As vapors drifted by
I felt the strangest feelings
Of course I know not why.

A weather baloon sent up to give
The weather for the day.
Some said a star that shines so bright,
We see it in the day.

Elusions, stars or man made things
Ships from other planets.
We watched, we talked and wondered.
But none of us could name it.

Because I could not give them
The answer is not given,
What is the thing that shines so bright
So far up in the heavens.

T/Sgt Barnes

FINIS



For 75 years we could have been learning what the shadows on the wall really mean and where we’re going. But, noooo.

LunaSea

(2,895 posts)
152. Thanks for that. I had to look it up.
Fri Nov 19, 2021, 02:26 AM
Nov 2021

Found this page that almost suggests that this poem was once a classified document.
Which is a kinda cool idea.
Danger Art....


14-January-2005
Poem by Tech Sergeant Barnes, 27th Fighter Group, Bergstrom AFB, March 1950


It’s unclear why this item by Tech Sergeant Barnes appears in the March 1950 history of the 27th Fighter Group, Bergstrom Air Force Base, Texas, but it does.

The poem expresses some ideas about flying saucers and frustrations in identifying the nature and source of the elusive aerial phenomena that existed at the time of writing, and still exist today.

If you are out there, T/Sgt Barnes, please contact us at:

CUFON
P.O. Mail unavailableMercer Island, WA 98040
USA.

This item, and hopefully many more to come, is a result of the work of Michael Ravnitzky of Silver Spring Maryland. Mr. Ravnitzky obtained a listing of over 500,000 still classified and/or restricted items in the holdings of the US Air Force Historical Research Agency at Maxwell AFB, Alabama. The good folks at The Memory Hole web site have made this list available to us all at: http://www.thememoryhole.org/mil/afhra/

Disaffected

(4,568 posts)
85. What is absolutely amazing is that
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 09:49 PM
Nov 2021

anyone, much less the USN, would take this video as evidence of a UFO.

Blurry Blobs here, there, everywhere!

Kid Berwyn

(14,953 posts)
100. "Do I believe it? Not particularly." -- Donald J Trump
Wed Nov 17, 2021, 09:40 AM
Nov 2021

Spoken like someone who thinks they know all they need to know about everything.



Expert Testimony plus Radar-Photographic is evidence of something unknown.

Source: https://www.livescience.com/65585-ufo-sightings-us-pilots.html

Disaffected

(4,568 posts)
111. "Spoken like someone who thinks they know all they need to know about everything."
Wed Nov 17, 2021, 12:26 PM
Nov 2021

More nonsense (but I repeat myself).

"Expert Testimony plus Radar-Photographic is evidence of something unknown."

Yes, that's about all you can logically say for it.

Kid Berwyn

(14,953 posts)
112. Not really. Eyewitness testimony also provides information.
Wed Nov 17, 2021, 12:46 PM
Nov 2021

A police officer I worked with for years told me something amazing... I was a newspaper reporter on the cop beat. This story happened almost 20 years before I met him.

One fall night in the mid-1970s, he was called to a lakefront home in southeastern Michigan. The residents called the station to report an object — saucer shaped and shiny — was sitting on their lawn by their beach. As the officer drove up, he saw a bright light flying low and rapidly across the lake, away from where he was heading. Upon investigation (by flashlight), he found a patch of burned grass about 30-feet across. He didn’t know what it was, but he saw something weird and it left marks on the ground.

Over five years, the guy never lied to me about a crime or story I was working on. There was no reason for me to disbelieve him then.

There are reports people who’ve experienced similar things, including Clarence “Kelly” Johnson of Lockheed Skunkworks fame, one of history’s great aircraft designers, was inspired to explore new avenues of investigation. His story:





The UFO Incident

On December 16, Johnson and his wife Althea were visiting their Lindero Ranch near Agoura, California, which was situated on a hillside facing the coast not far from Pt Mugu Naval Air Station, an aircraft and missile test facility. At about 5 PM Johnson was looking through a window at the brilliant sunset when he noticed a dark elliptical shape in the sky in the direction of Pt Mugu cape. His first thought was that it was a lenticular cloud, or possibly a smoke trail from an aircraft, but it remained stationary and unchanged for several minutes. He called for Althea to bring him his 8-power binoculars and ran outside. By that time the object had begun to move, accelerating away from him in a shallow climb in a direction opposite to the motion of the other clouds in the sky. It seemed to be very large and distant, and moving fast, but he had no real way of knowing its actual size, distance or speed.

At the same time, coincidentally, a Lockheed airplane was in the air on a test flight along the Los Angeles coastline. Constellation airframe 4301 was the prototype for a Navy Airborne Early Warning (AEW) aircraft, the WV-2 Warning Star. The WV-2 was a large four-engine transport equipped with huge blisters housing radar antennas (a search radar unit in the belly and a height-finder in a dorsal fairing), and was designed to fly very long standing patrols far off the coasts of North America to provide long-range detection of incoming Soviet bombers. Constellation 4301 was the first of a long line of Navy WV-2s and Air Force EC-121s that would provide a vital part of the North American air defense network throughout the 1950s and '60s.

At the controls of the Warning Star were Rudy Thoren and Roy Wimmer, both highly experienced senior test pilots in the Constellation program, assisted by Joseph F. Ware, Jr, another longtime Lockheed engineering test pilot.[3] Also in the cockpit were Charlie Grugan, another veteran company pilot, and Lockheed's Chief Aerodynamicist, Philip A Colman. It was customary for Lockheed engineers to ride aboard their planes during test flights, and Johnson himself often did so. (There are no indications that the elaborate radar systems, which required a crew of at least a dozen men, were active during the flight.)

Thoren had been recruited by Johnson from their alma mater, the aeronautical engineering school at University of Michigan, and had been Chief of Flight Test for Lockheed since 1946, in charge of all the company's test pilots. Colman was a Cal Tech graduate who had made valuable contributions to the P-38 program, and who would soon be tasked by Johnson with designing the wings for the new CL-282 recon plane. All of the crewmen were top representatives of their fields, having flown for the company for years in development programs of a variety of sophisticated aircraft.

The exact purpose of the test flight is not detailed in the sighting reports, but such flights typically involved calibration of airspeed vs engine power settings at various altitudes, and therefore the crewmen were very conscious of the height of the aircraft. Altitude recording instruments were carried on board.

Though Wimmer was technically the pilot in command, he had turned the controls over to Thoren and was maintaining a watch for other air traffic as Thoren conducted his tests. They had turned from a southeast heading to west, just off the coast of Long Beach, when, at 4:58 PM, Wimmer noticed a dark shape ahead at about their altitude of 14,000 feet. After watching it for a few moments and noting that it was not moving, he jokingly pointed it out to Thoren, saying "Look out, there's a flying saucer." Thoren turned the WV-2 a bit to the right to head toward the object. The other men saw the object too and watched it for a few minutes with a growing sense of curiosity. It appeared to be a very large aircraft of some type, but as it remained stationary and unchanged in shape over at least a five minute period, they became more and more intrigued. Thoren finally diverted from his course and headed directly at it. They flew toward it at about 225 mph for some time without appearing to gain on it at all. Then Wimmer, who was less occupied with piloting tasks and was able to keep a constant watch on the object, commented that it seemed to be disappearing. Within a few moments it appeared to head west directly away from them at high speed, remaining dark and solid-looking the entire time as it dwindled to a tiny dot. They all felt that it was a large object at a considerable distance, and compared its size to the largest types of transport or bomber aircraft. The men later reported that they thought little more of the incident at the time due to their preoccupation with completing the test mission, but Thoren was intrigued enough that upon returning home that evening he told his family about the sighting and sketched the object.

The following day, Kelly Johnson had returned to work and was discussing the WV-2 test flight with Thoren, who was still ruminating on the incident. A bit worried that Johnson would ridicule him, the pilot casually mentioned the sighting. Thoren was surprised when Johnson excitedly interrupted him and described his own sighting in detail. Both concluded that all the witnesses had been viewing the same object at the same time. Over the course of the next few weeks each of the pilots wrote a detailed personal account of the case, probably at Johnson's urging, and the Chief Engineer, in his typical meticulous style, assembled them into a file (Lockheed file LAC/149536) and drafted a personal cover letter addressed to the "Air Force Investigation Group on Flying Saucers" at Wright Field. Then, tough and combative as he was, Johnson hesitated to send the report. After all, he was hoping to get a foot in the door of the Air Force's new covert strategic reconnaissance aircraft competition and was very concerned that a UFO report might jeopardize his credibility. He may have sought the advice of his friend, Lt General Donald Putt.

Source: http://ufxufo.org/stealth/lockiur.htm



There’s so much weirdness there, it’s a book by itself.

JFK got America to the moon and back in less than a decade. And things today change faster than ever and become seemingly more chaotic. Perhaps we need some good old fashioned friendly discussion and create a renewed sense of community. Then, we can roll up our sleeves and get some more really big work done.

Kid Berwyn

(14,953 posts)
119. Some of the best photos were taken by Rex Heflin, a government employee...
Wed Nov 17, 2021, 01:29 PM
Nov 2021

An employee of Orange County, California, Mr. Heflin took a series of four UFO images with his Polaroid while checking road signs that were being blocked by vegetation in 1965. Here's his first photo:



Note how the dust on the ground directly underneath the object stands straight up. That is clear evidence of a physical affect caused by some type of unknown phenomenon, the UFO above it.

Anne Druffel and associates studied the pictures and reported:



Excerpt...

Computer enhancement also confirmed that the UFO in Heflin’s photo is a large object, approximately 20 feet in diameter and more than 100 feet from the camera, as first estimated by Heflin. Kelson also independently detected an unusual blurring effect around the craft which he stated was not due to motion, camera focus, or to the gaussian effect. This correlates with Dr. Nathan’s finding 30 years prior of an unexplained fuzziness in the craft image.

Our reanalysis of the Heflin UFO photos in 2000 has led to the following conclusions:

1. The photos are totally consistent with Heflin’s written and verbal testimony regarding the sighting.
2. The photos depict a solid unidentified craft which is moving through the air, leaving a trail.
3. William Spaulding’s hoax conclusion in the mid-1970s was derived from faulty data.
4. The smoke-ring photo is linked by computer-enhancement data to the other three, by cloud and trail data which were previously unavailable.


There is evidence that for 28 years, three of the original four photos were in the hands of unknown persons who took good care of them while possibly accessing data from them. Why they were returned to Heflin under totally inexplicable circumstances remains an unsolved mystery.

The UFO field’s study of Rex Heflin’s incomparable photos continues, and will continue in years to come. Ongoing studies into more technical aspects are being conducted presently by Dr. Kelson, and there is more evidence emerging that the unexplained blur around the object might possibly be evidence of ionization, long speculated by many researchers and scientists in the field to be involved in UFO propulsion.

Source(via Wayback Machine Internet Archive):

http://www.anndruffel.com/articles/ufo/goodbyerexheflin.htm



Mr. Heflin was in the right place at the right time, with his camera at the ready, because photographing traffic accidents and roadway hazards were part of his job. Were it me that day in his stead, I likely would not get a single photo. Heck, I’d probably still be staring with my jaw on my chest.



Here’s a composite of the Polaroid images Mr. Heflin took from within his truck (another pic he got after stepping outside, IIRC). They are outstanding photographs of an unidentified flying object.

TheBlackAdder

(28,211 posts)
41. Their goal is to make Americans as stupid as possible, to submit their will to one leader.
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 11:40 AM
Nov 2021

.

So are only Evangelicals and Republicans have shown complete fealty to the premise of cult indoctrination.

.

triron

(22,020 posts)
62. Acceleration 'appears' instantaneous because it happens so quickly.
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 06:40 PM
Nov 2021

I don't think 'instantaneous' acceleration is measurable.

ProfessorGAC

(65,168 posts)
73. The "Instant" Has To Be Defined
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 08:20 PM
Nov 2021

Technically, just like instantaneous velocity is the speed at a moment in time, usually during acceleration, instantaneous acceleration can be measure as the change in speed occurring at some defined moment in time.
But, as you suggest, it can't be defined in general, because it's the change in velocity over time.
If time is zero, the denominator is zero.
We can't divide by zero.
There are theoretical arguments among mathematicians what dividing by zero. It's either nonnumeric and indefinable, or it's infinity. If it's the latter, it requires infinite energy. Kind of hard to come by!
There are speculations that acceleration could be beyond 3 dimensions, therefore appearing instantaneous from our perspective. But, the math supporting that hasn't been developed.

triron

(22,020 posts)
76. There is a slight difference in the nuance of meaning of 'instantaneous' here.
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 08:47 PM
Nov 2021

I know what you mean (I am educated in mathematics and physics).. I use the term in a less strictly
mathematical sense.

ProfessorGAC

(65,168 posts)
86. I'm With Ya!
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 09:58 PM
Nov 2021

I would use it as you do. But, there is some verbal gymnastics that could be done to explain it.
The divide by zero thing, however, has no out. Same with the infinite energy piece.
I don't accept any of what I said as scientifically accurate, but a pseudoscience explanation could rationalize the use of the term in the manner applied in the linked article.

MLAA

(17,327 posts)
2. Seems pretty narrow minded to believe Earth is the only planet with life given the size
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 12:02 AM
Nov 2021

of the multiverse.

I believe!

brooklynite

(94,727 posts)
5. Believing in the likelihood of alien civilizations elsewhere in the galaxy.....
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 12:15 AM
Nov 2021

...says nothing about the ability of those aliens to traverse the immense distances between their solar system and ours in any reasonable amount of time.

lagomorph777

(30,613 posts)
28. Who says it's done in any reasonable amount of time?
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 10:22 AM
Nov 2021

Could take millennia. The galaxy is billions of years old; a civilization that's millions of years old has all the time it needs.

Hotler

(11,445 posts)
34. Comedian Kathleen Madigan does a bit where she wonders if aliens
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 10:48 AM
Nov 2021

think of Earth as the Alabama of the universe.

ProfessorGAC

(65,168 posts)
74. I Think It's Closer To An Ant Farm
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 08:24 PM
Nov 2021

I am not the least bit skeptical about advanced life existing elsewhere.
I'm still highly skeptical that an advanced race would find us interesting enough to visit, especially since that advanced tech should allow them to observe from a million miles out, with absolute stealth.
To that advanced a species, I'd think we'd be an ant farm, or a paramecium under a microscope.

Crunchy Frog

(26,630 posts)
56. The question of whether ET life exists is very different from the one of whether they
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 02:11 PM
Nov 2021

are visiting and mucking around on Earth. It's very possible to think it's likely they are out there, while thinking it unlikely they are visiting us here.

 

LiberatedUSA

(1,666 posts)
6. Thank you for that.
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 12:22 AM
Nov 2021

It never occurred to me that, in the event of contact, they could be billionaires. I always went with the assumption of a like-minded society, way more peaceful than we are, would be needed to achieve that kind of technology. But you’re right. Contact could mean their Elon Musk.

PoindexterOglethorpe

(25,895 posts)
8. People really do not understand how truly vast interstellar distances are.
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 12:37 AM
Nov 2021

Even at 99% of c (the speed of light), the nearest star is 4 years travel time away. Our galaxy is about 100,000 light years across. Oh, and even if some kind of transport mode were to be invented that could bring us close to the speed of light, travelling that fast would subject the travellers to vastly more radiation while on the journey, most of it potentially deadly, than travelling at the much slower speeds we currently travel at. Plus, outside of our Solar System, things are even more perilous.

I suggest reading How to Die in Space by Paul Sutter for a lot more specifics here.

And don't just blithely say that the fictitious aliens would be millions of years more advanced and so would have FTL (faster than light) drive. Reputable physicists are very certain that simply isn't possible. Oh, and if you want to invoke wormholes, forget it. You'd be killed just entering the wormhole. Sutter explains this in detail.

There's also reason to believe, according to My Son The Astronomer, that we may very well be the first intelligent/technological species in our galaxy. Hard to say. Plus, any species only lasts so long, and if ours is any blueprint, chances are the intelligent/technological ones destroy themselves before being able to visit other stars.

More to the point, where is the proof? Where are the actual crashed ships -- they're smart enough to travel light years and then crash on our planet? Think about it. And not just rumors and clearly hoaxed autopsies. But the real thing. Where are the videos of believably alien ships? Actual, verified, and recorded encounters? Especially these days, when everyone has a camera handy.

 

elevator

(415 posts)
9. Bogus
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 12:55 AM
Nov 2021

Reputable physicists also believe that FTL is theoretically possible. It depends on which ones you talk to. Plenty of videos of believable alien ships if you search for them. There is plenty of evidence of retrieved craft. Again, it is out there if you care to search. The ships that have crashed are not necessarily the same ones that have travelled the interstellar distances. Even advanced technologies can fail as well.

PoindexterOglethorpe

(25,895 posts)
10. Very, very, very theoretically, as in, can't really happen.
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 01:01 AM
Nov 2021

Again, Paul Sutter is a good source.

I've been reading UFO stuff for some 65 years at this point, and there really is not good evidence of actual visitors from elsewhere. Or retrieved craft. If there have been that many, then surely someone would have spilled the beans by now. It's the inverse of "The moon landing was faked" because to believe that, a person has to believe that thousands upon thousands of NASA employees cheerfully supported that fake. And that the hundreds of hours of broadcast between Earth and the various missions were likewise faked.

 

elevator

(415 posts)
30. Quit throwing up alien autopsies and fake moon landings.
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 10:40 AM
Nov 2021

No serious person believes that stuff. If you listen to Louis Elizondo, who worked on a government funded research program for years, and is very credible, you will note his comments on retrieved vehicles and and much more suppressed, clear video evidence, than what he was able to release in 2017. Hal Putoff, a renowned physicist is also a strong supporter of UAPs being real.

The problem of radiation in space is easily overcome by sending drones, androids or other other biological/machine hybrids. Or maybe the aliens are just intelligent enough to shield their craft.

Saboburns

(2,807 posts)
35. Luis Elizondo is a total fraud.
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 10:49 AM
Nov 2021

Last edited Tue Nov 16, 2021, 08:46 PM - Edit history (1)

Before he found fame by joining up with Tom DeLonge, Luis Elizondo claimed he saved his platoon in combat in Afghanistan using his special "remote viewing" to see through walls.

Elizondo was merely an enlisted serviceman. Whatever AATIP was and whatever AATIP did (nobody seems to know) if it was important as Luis Elizondo claims it was don't you think there would be an officer in charge instead of enlisted Luis Elizondo?

LunaSea

(2,895 posts)
72. It's a safe bet Mr Elizondo answered to a superior at the pentagon
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 08:10 PM
Nov 2021


As for "remote viewing"
I'd recommend Annie Jacobsons 2017 book as the most informative on the topic.

Phenomena: The Secret History of the U.S. Government's Investigations into Extrasensory Perception and Psychokinesis
https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/30841980-phenomena
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annie_Jacobsen

Saboburns

(2,807 posts)
75. Then you should tell Elizondo, cause he claims that he ran AATIP
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 08:44 PM
Nov 2021

Even though nobody else knows anything about AATIP.

And I won't lower myself to a debate about remote viewing. There is no remote viewing.


?s=20

LunaSea

(2,895 posts)
79. Didn't offer a debate
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 09:22 PM
Nov 2021

Just a link to an interesting book about stuff the pentagon did with your money and perhaps forgot to tell
you about.
Should I run into Elizondo, I'll tell him you say "hey".

"nobody else knows anything about AATIP."
Well that's just not true.

"We now know the titles of all of the nearly 40 studies the project funded in roughly four years of operation, as well as their authors and who they worked for. These reports cover a far wider breadth of topics than previously known, ranging from invisibility cloaks and warps drives, to fusion power and laser weapons, to more general advanced physics and materials science work. Some of the work appears to have been legitimate, but there’s at least one instance where the U.S. government almost certainly paid for junk science."

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/26056/heres-the-list-of-studies-the-militarys-secretive-ufo-program-funded-some-were-junk










Saboburns

(2,807 posts)
80. Not from AATIP. All that came from AAWAP.
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 09:36 PM
Nov 2021

AATIP had no budget, no mission statement. And run by an enlisted man who claims he can remote view.

Elizondo has long claimed to have been the former director of the Pentagon's AATIP program, but there is no documentary proof of this. In fact, there's no documentary proof of that program at all, in terms of a budget or mission statement or anything else definite. Some people have said that the AATIP and AAWSAP (Advanced Aerospace Weapon Systems Application, which funneled $22 million to Robert Bigelow's BAASS) program were the same. But James Lacatski, the only person we know to have worked on AAWSAP, recently compared the two programs while he was on Coast to Coast radio:

"But there was a difference between the two programs. Ours (AAWSAP) had $22 million dollars in funding, his (AATIP) had zero. Ours looked at military and civilian investigations, his looked at military exclusively. And we had, of course, contractor and subcontractor support. He had no contractor support. But he did his thing, we did ours. But I can say that in direct answer to your question, we were the only game in town, I would say from 2008 through 2012."

LunaSea

(2,895 posts)
84. Then I wonder
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 09:49 PM
Nov 2021

how the Chief of the DIA Congressional Relations Division might have been so mistaken.
Suppose it was in error, or intentionally misleading?

I'm not familiar with Lacatski, but I'll look him up.
Thanks.

LunaSea

(2,895 posts)
94. Dr James Lacatski
Wed Nov 17, 2021, 02:21 AM
Nov 2021

Last edited Wed Nov 17, 2021, 09:19 AM - Edit history (1)

Interesting guy to be certain.
I found the transcript of Lacatskis interview promoting the "Skinwalkers at the Pentagon"
book he co-authored (which looks like a wild read!) but Mr Lacatskis comments don't seem to suggest that Elizondo is a "total fraud" by any means.

From transcript-
GN: And how many different programs were going on at the time? I mean, we had yours, the Advanced Aerospace Weapon Systems Application, and then the AATIP was going on with Luis Elizondo.

JL: Well, that’s not…AATIP followed…the AATIP name was created for a letter that Senator Reid sent in, trying to establish a DoD SAP for our program, for various reasons. And Lue used that name when he…and I guess it had to be in the timeframe of 2012, perhaps, that he started looking exclusively at military investigations and he used the name AATIP.
...
Elizondo refers to Lacatski as his predecessor in other interviews and if correct, he might indeed be
knowledgeable about such details but I have no idea how common knowledge funding or support for
a Special Access Program would be within the DoD.

In another interview Elizondo makes this mention-
"In fact, my AATIP predecessor's career was ruined because of misplaced fear by an elite few. Rather than accept the data as provided by a top-rank rocket scientist, they decided the data was a threat to their belief system and instead, destroyed his career because of it."

This I could believe. Whether a thing going bump in someones night or a visit from the Great Gazoo, if it's weird
it must be the work of the debbel and shunned is a pretty old and safe conclusion for too many humans.

But perhaps he's something else. Running the AATIP program (according to Lacatski) but with no budget or contractors, nor any pushback from the pentagon for his claims that I know of, maybe Mr Elizondo is doing exactly what he's put into that position to do.
He'd make an interesting choice for a sort of "limited hangout", enlisted guy, interesting facial hair and garish tattoos telling us about strange things in the sky for some purpose.

On the other hand, maybe Mr Elizondos story is as he says it is.

Farther into the interview there's a mention of another interesting guy
who reviews the the book they are promoting by the name of Kit Green.
Dr Christopher Green (MD,PhD and a whole bunch of other impressive scientific
credits) is a pretty serious government puzzle solver whose name comes up several times
in the Annie Jacobson book I mentioned earlier, as well as numerous volumes by Jacques Vallee.
When there's something strange in the DoDs neighborhood,
Dr Green is one of the most level-headed folks they call.
His recommendation has me intrigued.

As does Lacatskis account of encountering a strange apparition of a small floating 'thing' shaped a lot like the graphic from the "Tubular Bells" album cover while visiting the infamous ranch to decide whether the DoD should spend time and resources
checking the place out.

And apparently a portion of the book deals with the AAWSAP inner workings too, so I'm assured of some educational
content in any case.

Update: Reading this book Lacatski co-authored, he states that AAWSAP and AATIP are the same program but AATIP focused on military data.
The name was changed "for security reasons" when Lacatski left the program.
The book has a really interesting introduction by Harry Reid.















PoindexterOglethorpe

(25,895 posts)
46. The amount of shielding that would be needed makes
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 12:17 PM
Nov 2021

building such craft not possible.

Again, no matter what someone says, if there's no actual physical evidence and proof, it's bullshit. Sort of like all the claims of voter fraud. Show us the fraud. Show us the vehicles.

 

elevator

(415 posts)
89. Why should they show you?
Wed Nov 17, 2021, 01:09 AM
Nov 2021

Nobody cares if you believe or not. There are a myriad of good reasons not to make absolute evidence available. But, if one has been paying attention to what has been going on and reported for about 100 years then common sense says there is something going on that involves craft that perform actions not explainable by our knowledge of physics.

 

elevator

(415 posts)
132. LOL. I got plenty. But, why would I waste time posting it for you?
Wed Nov 17, 2021, 08:41 PM
Nov 2021

I could really care less what you believe. It's obvious you don't wish to take the
time to seriously research the phenomenon.
Te le vaya bien amigo.

The Revolution

(766 posts)
149. Doing your own research?
Thu Nov 18, 2021, 03:51 PM
Nov 2021

Whenever someone asks for UFO evidence, they are invariably pointed to Google to find it themselves. A couple problems with that. One is that Google (or any search engine) is not necessarily tuned to return the most accurate or truthful information first. Two is that it will return personalized results and advertisements as well.

However I did try to Google "best ufo evidence", and one of the top results after the ads was this article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/magazine/2021/08/11/stop-ufo-mania-no-evidence-of-aliens/#

UFO Mania Is Out of Control. Please Stop.
Sorry to disappoint you, this science writer says, but there’s zero evidence of aliens.
...
My strong suspicion is that the number of UFO sightings that involve actual alien beings, from deep space, with the tentacles and the antennae and so on, is zero. I would put the likelihood at 0.0000 and then add some more zeros, before eventually, begrudgingly — because I’m so intellectually flexible — putting in a little 1 out there somewhere to the right, a lonely sentinel, because who knows? (Yes, I’m saying there’s a chance.)
...
We’re talking about elusive spacecraft piloted by unknown beings, of unknown biology, using unknown technologies. Whose motives are unknown. And who come from … somewhere. And who right now are … hiding? Watching us? Their location cannot be discerned because they have special cloaking technologies. But which mercifully are not perfect, thus allowing military pilots to see them, sometimes, and even capture them on poor-quality videos.
...
Your belief is welcome into the community of science provided it is backed by evidence, and provided that the evidence is solid and commensurate with the novelty of the claim.
...
Einstein’s theory of relativity was a bold new idea that was not universally embraced for many years, indeed not until astronomers went to tremendous lengths to measure the displacement of starlight as it passed near the sun during a total eclipse. That was the extraordinary evidence.
...
The biggest problem facing the United States in the summer of 2021 is not that too many people refuse to think outside the box, but that too many people think that what’s in the box isn’t true. We need more people thinking inside the box. Science is a candle in the dark.
 

elevator

(415 posts)
150. LOL. Hardly anything this guy states is accurate.
Thu Nov 18, 2021, 05:32 PM
Nov 2021

LOL. The "community of science" has been behind the truth curve on new discoveries for many years.

electric_blue68

(14,933 posts)
24. I believe it's possible...
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 05:58 AM
Nov 2021

from cognitive tests bc I was a preemie that was part of an experimental treatment in the early '50's, and later by another person - my ability to abstract is nearly off-the-charts.
So yes, I get the extremely vast distances of the cosmos, and it's nearly swoon worthy.

Right now they're making discoveries that are possibly up ending, or partial disrupting our current theories.
So you and they don't know for sure whether FTL travel is an impossibility, or other things like iat least some ntelligent life existing elsewhere right now.

Since the cosmos is so vast, and there maybe non-carbon based life out there at least is the possibility that a few civilizations arose around the same time, and contacted each other.
Maybe it's somewhere between that and say Trek, or Babylon 5. Or maybe it's closer to the movie "Contact".

PoindexterOglethorpe

(25,895 posts)
108. Yes, the universe is huge, unthinkably huge.
Wed Nov 17, 2021, 11:58 AM
Nov 2021

There are probably more than a trillion galaxies in the universe. And so yes, chances are very high that life, including intelligent/technological life has evolved any number of times. But the odds that two such have evolved so that they overlap in time and near enough to each other to make contact is almost infinitesimally small. The entire universe is currently estimated to be about 90 or so billion light years in diameter. It's a bit under 14 billion years old. Already, at least 90% of the universe is so far away that we could never possibly visit, even with the most optimistic scenario.

Again, people just don't get how vast interstellar distances really are, let alone inter-galactic distances. Here's one way to think of it: our galaxy, Milky Way has about 300 billion stars. Andromeda, the nearest large galaxy, is about three times larger, without about a trillion stars. The two are on a collision course. Brace yourself! They'll collide in about 4 to 5 billion years and eventually merge into one large galaxy. A while back I asked My Son The Astronomer, when that happens, how many stars will actually collide with each other? His answer was, "Well, we're not entirely sure, but probably no more than ten." Yes, somewhat more will gravitationally interact, but the "no more than ten" should tell you an awful lot about how far apart stars really are from each other.

And the consensus among scientists really is that FTL probably cannot happen. Yes, they're certainly open to the possibility that it could happen, but meanwhile, the unlikelihood is overwhelming.

Simply believing people who claim to have seen some sort of actual alien or alien craft, if they do not show any actual physical proof, is foolish. It's right up there with the claims of massive voter fraud in the 2020 election. Prove it. If you can't, you're just making stuff up.

Again, I urge everyone to read How to Die in Space by Paul Sutter. Not only does it pack a lot of information, he has a cheeky, often snarky way of expressing himself that had me laughing out loud a lot.

lagomorph777

(30,613 posts)
29. "we may very well be the first intelligent/technological species in our galaxy"
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 10:25 AM
Nov 2021

First, I question the idea that we're intelligent.

Second, does this not remind you of the days when everybody "knew" that the Earth was the center of the Universe?

One thing our brains are damned good at, is hubris.

hunter

(38,326 posts)
36. Yep. In this universe "Faster Than Light" is fantasy.
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 11:17 AM
Nov 2021

That means a lot of Science Fiction is actually fantasy.

In Star Trek the Eneterprise is powered by MAGIC. So are the transporters.

I always look for science fiction that recognizes the speed of light as an absolute limit.

It seems to me that natural born humans will never have a significant presence in space. We're simply too fragile.

If our technological civilization manages to survive the current global warming crisis we might develop engineered beings who can live comfortably on places like the surface of Mars. These will be our intellectual children. If we raise them well, and they still have a fondness for us, maybe they'll take us along for the ride.

I'm not sure we are the first "intelligent/technological" species in this galaxy. Rather I suspect that species resembling our own, those that manage to survive and reach a certain level of technical sophistication, simply disappear into more comfortable universes of their own making inaccessible to this one.

roamer65

(36,747 posts)
11. They are harvesting what they can before we destroy the planet.
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 01:04 AM
Nov 2021

They know the destination of this runaway train on Earth.

MLAA

(17,327 posts)
26. We've certainly ruined this one in the last 100 years.
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 10:13 AM
Nov 2021

It’s time to do anything you can on your bucket list

BigmanPigman

(51,627 posts)
12. There is more between Heaven and Earth Horatio...
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 01:15 AM
Nov 2021

Who even says that a being is driving the spacecraft? Maybe it is all done with telepathy. Not believing that some other being may be "out there" is foolish and ignorant. We don't have the tools, minds or abilities to even begin to figure this all out and we may not have for a hundred thousand years. Time is meaningless outside of Earth as well. Many things are going on and we have no clue. Damn, people are even reincarnated on other planets in other galaxies. The various possibilities are endless.

LunaSea

(2,895 posts)
96. Lots of variations of this thought
Wed Nov 17, 2021, 02:42 AM
Nov 2021

Reality is not only stranger than we suppose, but stranger than we can suppose.
Nature is not only odder than we think, but odder than we can think.
The universe is not only stranger than we imagine; it is stranger than we can imagine.
Not only is the universe stranger than we think, it is stranger than we can think.
The universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose.

According to Quoteinvestivator.com-
The earliest match in this family of expressions known to QI was written by J. B. S. Haldane in an essay titled “Possible Worlds” published within a 1927 collection.

https://quoteinvestigator.com/2018/12/25/universe/

Silent3

(15,265 posts)
25. "Not believing that some other being may be 'out there' is foolish and ignorant."
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 06:21 AM
Nov 2021

Do you truly believe that people who strongly doubt UFO reports are saying exactly the same thing as "there's no other life in the universe"?

Or are you capable of understanding that those are two different things?

Disaffected

(4,568 posts)
54. You are presenting strawman arguments.
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 02:04 PM
Nov 2021

" Not believing that some other being may be "out there" is foolish and ignorant. "

No-one is (logically) claiming that. The point is the evidence does not support such a belief and in fact does not even approach a decent level of credibility (for the many reasons cited on this forum and many others in the past).

The burden of evidence is on those making the claims - not the doubters.

"Damn, people are even reincarnated on other planets in other galaxies."

Well now you've entered an entirely different field of woo.

"The various possibilities are endless."

There are possibilities (albeit not endless) but, until credible evidence is presented to substantiate them, they remain only that.

Beware of the blurry blobs!

triron

(22,020 posts)
65. Please, why is the 'burden of proof' on those making the claims?
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 06:53 PM
Nov 2021

What constitutes 'proof' to you?
You probably say the same about most all paranormal phenomena
because it doesn't fit with your dogma (and perhaps with what you perceive as the popular 'scientific
dogma').

Disaffected

(4,568 posts)
81. The burden of proof
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 09:37 PM
Nov 2021

is on those making the claims as it would be illogical to expect the detractors to "prove a negative" (which is a not possible or at least impractical). For instance if I claimed there are flying cows and leprechauns and asked you to prove there aren't, you would not be able to do so.

In a similar manner, I cannot "prove" to you or even provide direct evidence that aliens in flying saucers or on earth someplace do not exist. It only makes sense to provide evidence of something's existence.

You however are correct about what I would say about paranormal phenomena - the situations are very similar i.e. little or no credible, verifiable evidence and, many reasons to suspect they do not exist.

As for scientific dogma, "dogma" and "science" are mutually exclusive - one is the polar opposite of the other. Dogma is based on belief while science is based on evidence.

triron

(22,020 posts)
122. Science assumes a paradigm for reality. That is dogma.
Wed Nov 17, 2021, 02:43 PM
Nov 2021

Science has modified its paradigms as new theories and experimental verification occurs,
but it still has an underlying paradigm (albeit not constant).
There are phenomena that our present science cannot understand or incorporate into its paradigm.
That does not mean that the 'burden of proof' is on those who have observed those phenomena.
The reason is not what you cited, but rather that these phenomena cannot be 'proven' based on (current)
scientific knowledge or 'paradigm'. If there had been hundreds (or even thousands) of observations reported of flying cows then why isn't that to be taken seriously (but there haven't have there?) for further investigation.
Sure it can't be understood based on current physics and what we know about cows but why dismiss it as being
unreal or illusory?

BTW I am a retired scientist.

Disaffected

(4,568 posts)
128. "..a paradigm for reality"
Wed Nov 17, 2021, 04:22 PM
Nov 2021

WTHeck does that even mean?

Sure it can't be understood based on current physics and what we know about cows but why dismiss it as being
unreal or illusory?


If we are still talking about aliens visiting us in their UFOs, that assumes there is in fact something present that can't be understood by current physics and, that has yet to be demonstrated in any credible manner. As well, presumably if there were thousands of cows flying around, there would be credible evidence that the phenomenon actually exists (as has been noted here by others, every man and his cow has a camera and yet we have no credible images of alien spacecraft. But, one would expect many clear images if flying aliens, or cows, were amongst us. Them we would have to take it seriously even if we can't understand how it all happens.

BTW I am a retired scientist.


Makes no difference here (argument from authority).

PoindexterOglethorpe

(25,895 posts)
109. Of course the burden of proof is on those making the claims.
Wed Nov 17, 2021, 12:04 PM
Nov 2021

Otherwise, we have no idea if what someone claims is actually true.

hunter

(38,326 posts)
146. Maybe at a certain level of intelligence we can be everywhere at once...
Thu Nov 18, 2021, 11:48 AM
Nov 2021

... in the space-time continuum and focus our attention anywhere we like.

Rather like Q on Star Trek, who seems to have a rather peculiar fascination with Jean-Luc Picard.

Who needs spaceships?

I figure it's the UFO believers who lack imagination.

We humans travel around in cars, boats, and airplanes, therefore, by extrapolation, the space aliens must travel around in spaceships...

That's boring.

Maybe the space aliens show up in human form riding bicycles, wearing little more than body paint. I'm sure I've met a few like that.

Gaugamela

(2,496 posts)
13. Drive-by posting. All the 'splainers gotta 'splain consensus reality to all the misty-eyed dreamers,
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 01:17 AM
Nov 2021

even though the ‘splainers won’t look at the article or video or who said what.

But if you call it an artifact of the matrix or the simulation or whatever, then they’ll jump in with their dog-eared copies of 600 page sci-fi novels and ‘splain how it’s gotta be ‘cause it’s gotta be.

Orrex

(63,224 posts)
20. Well, "consensus reality" is usually invoked when someone has no real evidence
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 01:46 AM
Nov 2021

It's an equivocation along the lines of dismissing something as "scientistic" or derisively referring to "western medicine."

It's a tempting tactic, but what follows is almost invariably unconvincing to anyone who isn't already on board.

Elsewhere in this thread the point was well-made that the sheer number of people who'd have to be fully immersed in the cover-up makes such a cover-up extraordinarily unlikely. It's even curious that Elizondo himself went to the largely uncritical press rather than presenting his chilling national security concerns to agencies empowered to do something about it.


I'm not here to belittle anyone's beliefs, but I'm also not about to believe in something for which we have no concrete, independently verified evidence.

 

elevator

(415 posts)
32. There are valid, at least to those who have it, reasons for not releasing
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 10:43 AM
Nov 2021

the evidence that has been collected. It always amazes me that because someone, you, has not seen the evidence, it doesn't exist.

Orrex

(63,224 posts)
51. You're putting the burden upon me to disprove the claim, rather than upon the claimant
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 12:51 PM
Nov 2021

The proof exists? Lovely! Let's see it.

He can't show it? Too bad. Elizondo worked for years at an agency whose MO is to hide, obfuscate, misdirect, and deceive, but now all of a sudden I'm expected to take him at his word because he's seen things that he can't share? Forgive me if I have my doubts.

Hell, it doesn't even have to be Elizondo. Any of the thousands upon thousands upon thousands of people who've claimed to have this information can come forward with it. You mean that none of them, across many decades, thought to give a deathbed revelation about whatever concrete evidence they've been sitting on?

Sorry, but the chance is remote that such a monumental cover-up across so many years and people and nations and governments could be preserved intact without anyone even inadvertently spilling the beans.


Until that day, you're free to believe, but the evidence put forth so far is convincing only to the faithful.

 

elevator

(415 posts)
92. Many people have come forward and given testimony.
Wed Nov 17, 2021, 01:31 AM
Nov 2021

there was a press conference in Washington in 2001 where many former military and civilian pilots and others who worked in the government testified about their experiences. And many pothers have come forth over the years as well, but of course they are all fabricating in your opinion, which means no more than anyone else's.

Orrex

(63,224 posts)
93. How convenient for you to be able to assign my opinion to me.
Wed Nov 17, 2021, 01:50 AM
Nov 2021

You declare that, in my opinion, all of these pothers(sic) are fabricating their stories. Since I have made no such claim, I am under no obligation to defend it. You are taking my quite reasonable and well-justified reservations about Elizondo and assuming that they equally apply to all purported witnesses.

To clarify, I do not think that all of the witnesses are fabricating their tales. I suspect that some surely are, while others are simply mistaken and others are delusional. But I suppose that the large majority of claimants are sincere and making their claims in good faith.

However, eyewitness testimony in support of fantastical claims is simply inadequate, full stop. Well, mostly full stop: it's entirely adequate to people who've already decided to believe. But to people seeking actual evidence, eyewitness testimony falls very, very short.

Many thousands of people believe in ghosts, and many have provided passionate eyewitness accounts of their experiences. But you know what they haven't produced? Any independently verifiable evidence. Not one scrap, not ever.

And the same is true of those who claim that aliens have visited.

Show me some concrete, independently verifiable evidence, and we'll talk. Absent that evidence, the most that one can say about eyewitness testimony is "I believe that they're sincere."

 

elevator

(415 posts)
103. For the record. I don't believe in alien visitation.
Wed Nov 17, 2021, 10:48 AM
Nov 2021

What I do believe is that there are thousands of credible eyewitness testimony, going back decades, which is used to send people to prison and even execution at times, our there. There are also dozens and dozens of photos that have not been shown to be false or manipulated, many which were taken years before photo shop etc were a thing. many of the eyewitnesses are trained observers and sometimes suffer ridicule etc for coming forward. Many of the best witnesses are pilots, military and civilian that have had sightings that lasted for long periods of time at short distances.

Taken as a whole, this suggests a strong possibility that there are craft, of unknown origin, with incredible capabilities, that have been operating in our atmosphere for many decades, and perhaps much longer.

Do I believe they are alien? No. But, it is certainly one of four explanations. 1) they are craft from other countries, 2) they are ours 3) they are developed by an unknow entity on this planet, 4) they are alien. There are sound reasons why alien is a valid explanation.

Orrex

(63,224 posts)
136. Options 1 and 2 are credible
Wed Nov 17, 2021, 09:16 PM
Nov 2021

3 and 4 are, at the moment, entirely unsupported by concrete evidence.

Option 5 is conventional natural phenomena misinterpreted by witnesses. Option 6 is hitherto undocumented natural phenomena misinterpreted by witnesses. And so on.

None of these options requires the witnesses to be deceptive, as you have previously declared me to assume.

Even heartfelt, cautious witnesses are easily misled, as James Randi has irrefutably demonstrated to occur. All it takes is a motivated trickster, as is the case with the iconic Loch Ness Monster photo and innumerable Sasquatch footprints.

Further, people have been faking photos since shortly after photography was invented, and long before Photoshop. As such, photographic evidence is insufficient proof of fantastical phenomena. Arthur Conan Doyle was famously deceived by photographs of "fairies," which were in fact the most rudimentary of amateur hoaxes.

Regarding your invocation of eyewitness testimony leading to imprisonment or execution, how many of those cases hinged upon the factual reality of fantastical phenomena? Setting aside the very real problem of corrupt prosecutors and judiciary, even sincere eyewitness testimony is superseded by concrete, verifiable physical evidence.


The solution here is simple: present physical, independently verifiable evidence of these purported unidentified craft.

 

elevator

(415 posts)
140. Anyone proposing any kind of natural or weather phenomenon to explain
Thu Nov 18, 2021, 01:24 AM
Nov 2021

the millions of sightings of craft for the past 100 years or so cannot be taken seriously.

To imply that many people were doctoring photos back in the 30s, 40s and 50s is also ludicrous. While there were some people with the equipment and knowledge to do it. It was certainly not something that would have been commonplace at all in those years. Again, eyewitness testimony is considered credible in courts of law everyday. The phenomena are not "fantastical" at all.

Of course people can be fooled and photos doctored, but to assign those explanations to the millions of reported sighting and historic photo evidence is absurd.

Motivated tricksters. C'mon man.

Orrex

(63,224 posts)
143. You are dismissing by fiat those explanations that contradict your assumption
Thu Nov 18, 2021, 02:19 AM
Nov 2021

I've read the whole thread, and you (along with others) simply reject the idea that the burden is on the claimants to support their claims. You also seem, from our exchange specifically, to reject the idea that eyewitness testimony is insufficient to prove fantastical phenomena.

Further, you aren't presenting your case logically; you repeatedly assign incorrect viewpoints to me, for no legitimate reason that I can discern. Can you tell me why you have done this?

I'm also curious why you dismiss the idea of motivated tricksters, when we have countless examples of exactly that, across a wide range of allegedly fantastical phenomena throughout history. I suspect that you dismiss this fact because it is inconvenient to your assumption, though I add that I am not assigning this view to you but am simply articulating my suspicion.

You are not seriously engaging this subject. You have assumed that these sightings are unknown aircraft, and each of your conclusions is made in support of that assumption.


Present concrete evidence and I will consider it objectively. Otherwise you are simply proselytizing, and nothing is to be gained from further discussion with you.

 

elevator

(415 posts)
145. You erect straw men constantly.
Thu Nov 18, 2021, 11:36 AM
Nov 2021

I never said eyewitness testimony was sufficient to explain fantastical phenomena And UFOs are not a fantastical phenomena. I said along with all the other evidence, photos and physical traces, of which there are many cases. as pointed out by so many above.
I sincerely doubt there are tens of millions of motivated tricksters.

Why lie. I said I do not believe in UFOs. I have assumed nothing. I did not deny their are tricksters. I said the possibility is real and based on accumulated data a strong possibility.

It will be a relief if you quit posting as you bring nothing to the discussion but an arrogance that is becoming quite annoying. However, knowing the personality type, I bet you lack the self control to restrain yourself from another post. What say you amigo? Uno mas and we know the diagnosis is correct.

FuzzyRabbit

(1,969 posts)
14. If the aliens are looking for intelligent life on earth
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 01:18 AM
Nov 2021

they will be very disappointed to find that there is none.

Shellback Squid

(8,926 posts)
17. I need a probe, anal this time
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 01:25 AM
Nov 2021

I really don't what to believe, I was a naval photographer on a oil burning USS aircraft craft carrier in the 1980's.
We had no info in the ships archives, never saw anything and never heard the air division talking about
UFO's.
stupid to think we are all alone

denbot

(9,901 posts)
22. I was on a destroyer in the late 70's early 80's and left a page and a half describing something..
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 02:52 AM
Nov 2021

It showed on radar, the look outs on the signal bridge couldn't make sense of it and while the officers on the bridge watch acknowledged it, but then decided that it was best ignored.

Somewhere there is an account in our CIC surface contact log describing everything about the contact I could think of, and conditions it appeared under.

Buns_of_Fire

(17,194 posts)
23. Flying Tic Tacs capable of instantaneous acceleration.
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 03:48 AM
Nov 2021

Invading other planets. They don't even ask, they just start invading. When you're a master of transmedial travel, they just let you do it.

triron

(22,020 posts)
64. They're visiting and observing, clearly not 'invading'. Our technology is probably thousands of
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 06:46 PM
Nov 2021

years behind theirs.

Saboburns

(2,807 posts)
31. Luis Elizondo & To The Stars Academy are a ham-fisted money grab outfit
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 10:42 AM
Nov 2021

Last edited Tue Nov 16, 2021, 08:50 PM - Edit history (2)

And let me be perfectly clear, I absolutely believe there is other life out there other than us. I even believe they can and have visited Earth.

I don't know what the tic-tac video really is, nor the go fast video is either. I just know it's not proof of aliens. I am of the opinion that it's just a technologic updated version of the famous 1950's picture of a hubcap shot tossed into the air. These video do not impress me as they seemed to impress so many.

Tom DeLonge, Luis Elizondo, Chris Mellon have PR'ed these two videos into a huge pile of money. I am not impressed. They are snake-oil salesman. DeLonge is a goofy guitar player, and before he found fame Elizondo claimed he saved his platoon in combat in Afghanistan using his special "remote viewing" powers to see through walls.

So it's okay to believe aliens exist AND ALSO to believe Luis Elizondo is a fraud and full of shit.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
67. And folksy anecdotes are usually bullshit.
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 07:05 PM
Nov 2021

Familiarize yourself with the non-sequitur fallacy and get back with us.

hunter

(38,326 posts)
37. Oh, there are a few alien graduate students doing field work here on earth...
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 11:29 AM
Nov 2021

...but they are not interested in humans and they don't need vehicles to get around.

They are here to study beetles.

After all, The Creator Has an Inordinate Fondness for Beetles.

https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/06/23/beetles/

Kid Berwyn

(14,953 posts)
45. Sen. Harry Reid thought it a matter of national security.
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 12:14 PM
Nov 2021


How Harry Reid, a Terrorist Interrogator and the Singer From Blink-182 Took UFOs Mainstream

The hidden history of how Washington embraced a fringe field of science.

By BRYAN BENDER
Politico, 05/28/2021

Excerpt...

Over the next few years, (Harry) Reid told me, he went to multiple such meetings. As Bigelow, Alexander and the others were publishing obscure journal articles and compiling a database of UFO sightings, the most influential member of the group quietly broached the topic with some of his colleagues in Washington, including former astronaut and senator John Glenn. Reid ultimately enlisted the support of a handful of powerful committee chairs, including Ted Stevens of Alaska and Daniel Inouye of Hawaii, to fund hush-hush UFO research inside the Defense Department. The existence of that program was revealed publicly by POLITICO and the New York Times in mid-December 2017. One of the program’s main beneficiaries was an aerospace company owned by none other than Robert Bigelow.

Next month, the director of national intelligence, acting at the behest of Republican Sen. Marco Rubio, is scheduled to release a report that collects from across the government all relevant material on what the officials now call “unidentified aerial phenomena.” Regardless of what ultimately emerges in this report—whether it’s a trove of blockbuster reveals or a disappointing dud—the mere prospect has catalyzed a wave of mainstream coverage of government UFO research, from the New Yorker to “60 Minutes.” A bewildering and still highly controversial subject has achieved a surprising level of public respectability as a national security concern.

Reid had retired by the time his secret role in the program was revealed. But his willingness to talk openly now about the subject speaks to a profound change in the calculus of political and reputational risk. Far from a blot on his career, Reid sees it as a line to highlight on his legislative resume and he has no regrets about Bigelow benefiting from the program.

“I think that I have opened the door to people not being afraid to talk about it,” Reid now says. “I know that when I first got involved in this, people in the military were afraid to mention it for fear of it hurting their promotions. But now the Pentagon has told them they should report all these things that they see that are unusual. So we made a tremendous amount of progress.”

Continues...

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/05/28/ufos-secret-history-government-washington-dc-487900

Bucky

(54,065 posts)
52. For some reason every time I see his name, I think of Hector Elizondo
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 12:55 PM
Nov 2021

Who, if you watched tv in the 70s or 80s, you couldn't get away from -- bonus points: he was in the X-Files movie.

andym

(5,445 posts)
53. And yet the SETI Institute has spent millions, and has not yet found alien life or intelligence
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 01:51 PM
Nov 2021

The scientists at seti.org have been busy for years trying to find evidence of life and alien intelligence in the universe-- they are going strong but so far have come up without anything definitive.

If only they had realized they only needed to talk to Luis Elizondo. But perhaps they need more tangible evidence than Elizondo has.

Moreover, a few reports of encounters with superior aircraft that Elizondo relates means very little. Elizondo's narrative is completely full of holes. He states: "We know it’s not the US because the US has already come out and admitted it’s not us." It would be completely naive to believe that if there was some secret aeronautics program, the US would admit it to this guy, even if were part of another government program. Wouldn't national security take precedence?

On a side note, I'm sure that Kurt Vonnegut, in whose books I first heard the name Eliot Rosewater, would have been amused.

triron

(22,020 posts)
66. SETI searches a limited amount of the stellar population and a limited type of signal (radio).
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 07:02 PM
Nov 2021

If these extraterrestials are capable of routine interstellar (possibly intergalactic) travel,
perhaps communications between these advanced civilizations (which we might detect) utilize
another type of media (even besides electromagnetic). Quantum mechanics tells us there is phenomena
that is 'nonlocal' meaning some form of apparently instantaneous communication. Look up 'Bell's Theorem'.

leftstreet

(36,112 posts)
68. That was interesting
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 07:11 PM
Nov 2021

I'd never heard of Bell's Theorem. Thanks for posting that.

I don't know much of anything on the subject, but I generally avoid these threads as people are so very passionately...committed... to explaining whether or not there are alien life forms.

andym

(5,445 posts)
77. Quantum Mech.--Bell's theorem doesn't allow instantaneous communication (no-communication theorem)
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 08:57 PM
Nov 2021

Last edited Tue Nov 16, 2021, 10:13 PM - Edit history (2)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-communication_theorem
"In physics, the no-communication theorem or no-signaling principle is a no-go theorem from quantum information theory which states that, during measurement of an entangled quantum state, it is not possible for one observer, by making a measurement of a subsystem of the total state, to communicate information to another observer. The theorem is important because, in quantum mechanics, quantum entanglement is an effect by which certain widely separated events can be correlated in ways that suggest the possibility of communication faster-than-light. The no-communication theorem gives conditions under which such transfer of information between two observers is impossible. These results can be applied to understand the so-called paradoxes in quantum mechanics, such as the EPR paradox, or violations of local realism obtained in tests of Bell's theorem. In these experiments, the no-communication theorem shows that failure of local realism does not lead to what could be referred to as "spooky communication at a distance" (in analogy with Einstein's labeling of quantum entanglement as requiring "spooky action at a distance" on the assumption of QM's completeness)."

Disaffected

(4,568 posts)
87. Thank you for posting that.
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 10:01 PM
Nov 2021

Every bit helps in countering misinformation (even though at times it seems like trying to sweep back the ocean).

 

elevator

(415 posts)
91. SETI has only observed a tiny fraction of possible signal origins.
Wed Nov 17, 2021, 01:17 AM
Nov 2021

It is a program that is never going to locate anything.

scipan

(2,357 posts)
69. 1 million years to populate the galaxy
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 07:21 PM
Nov 2021

I think robots are much more practical.

But this begs the question of why we haven’t been visited yet, at least in an obvious way.

It's a very interesting question and the immediate answer that springs to mind is never. However, using current technology or technology that should become available in the next 100 years it has been calculated that the human race could indeed colonise the Milky Way. Surprisingly, given the size of the galaxy and the length of time humans have been on Earth already this time is pretty short.
The answer was calculated as around 1 million years to populate the galaxy with humans. This is amazing when you consider humans have been around for 2.2 million years already on Earth. However, it does make you wonder that if it is possible with our https://www.learnastronomyhq.com/articles/how-long-would-it-take-for.htmltechnology where are all the aliens in the Milky Way? Surely, some aliens would have had time to start populating the galaxy by now.
The full thought experiment and working out can be found at the following link below:
http://www.open.edu/openlearn/science-maths-technology/science/physics-and-astronomy/how-long-would-it-take-colonise-the-galaxy




PoindexterOglethorpe

(25,895 posts)
126. Humans have not been around for 2.2 million years.
Wed Nov 17, 2021, 03:23 PM
Nov 2021

Not by a long shot. Maybe 300,000 years for fully modern humans. And it's only in the past 10,000 years or so that things like writing, farming, technology came about.

While it may be that single celled organisms showed up relatively quickly, a billion or so years after the planet cooled, more complex life didn't show up until about 500 million years ago. Here's a link to a timeline about evolution of life on this planet: https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17453-timeline-the-evolution-of-life/


It's also possible that our single, relatively large moon, is hugely important in the development of life here. Plus, of course, being in the Goldilocks Zone as it's called, of our sun. Not too hot, not too cold.

I know that one of the things the James A. Webb telescoped will be doing is looking at atmospheres and trying to figure out if they hint at life of any kind having evolved on exoplanets.

My Son The Astronomer does exo-planet research, although at present he's simply working on ways to more efficiently find them.

 

CrackityJones75

(2,403 posts)
70. Enjoying the absurd belief that we humans
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 07:39 PM
Nov 2021

Enjoying the absurd belief that we humans know everything that is and isn’t possible. No wonder why we are fucking up the only place we have to live.

Silent3

(15,265 posts)
104. What does (rightfully) doubting alien visitors have to do with supposedly knowing...
Wed Nov 17, 2021, 10:56 AM
Nov 2021

..."everything that is and isn’t possible"?

I leave it as an exercise to the reader to figure out why the two things aren't equivalent.

 

CrackityJones75

(2,403 posts)
106. Why is it rightfully?
Wed Nov 17, 2021, 11:26 AM
Nov 2021

It is perfectly fine to doubt it for sure. Not sure it is rightful.

There are credible folks that believe that we have been visited. But the throwing down that it isn’t possible (that isn’t doubt. That is categorically denying the possibility) based on what we know about physics and travel seems absurd for me when we know that our own governments keep info from us on what is possible.

Silent3

(15,265 posts)
107. And there are credible folks that don't believe that we have been visited.
Wed Nov 17, 2021, 11:43 AM
Nov 2021

In distinguishing between what's possible and what's likely, believing in conspiracies about hidden information isn't a great way to expand the realm of the likely. That's the same thought process that leads one down the road to believing the 2020 election was stolen from Trump.

In the absence of strong pro-alien-visitation evidence, where the lack of clear evidence isn't conspiratorially explained away, it's perfectly reasonable to apply our current knowledge of physics, however limited that might be. And it's not like our current knowledge is all that limiting for alien visitation -- hence the Fermi Paradox.

 

CrackityJones75

(2,403 posts)
110. Sure absolutely.
Wed Nov 17, 2021, 12:14 PM
Nov 2021

But this categorically saying what is and isn’t possible for a possible other species and civilization based on what we know is ridiculous.

 
78. If there is one civilization for every 2,000 light years
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 09:10 PM
Nov 2021

There would be over 10,000 civilizations in the Milky Way alone, according to something I once read or heard. Our universe could be full of life all limited by the same physics.

scipan

(2,357 posts)
97. Yeah but how long do we last?
Wed Nov 17, 2021, 02:52 AM
Nov 2021

It seems like there would be a lot of civilizations to connect to via SETI. Not a good sign...

 

marie999

(3,334 posts)
113. I don't believe we have been visited by aliens.
Wed Nov 17, 2021, 12:58 PM
Nov 2021

But with a septillion number of stars in the universe, I doubt that our star is the only one that has sentient life on one of its planets.

Eliot Rosewater

(31,121 posts)
125. And that is the way to state it, you dont "believe" , where as I "believe" that we may have been.
Wed Nov 17, 2021, 02:54 PM
Nov 2021

The problem are the people that not only dont believe but belittle those who do and pretend they have the final word on the subject.

Thank you for your liberal, democratic, intelligent response!

Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #125)

Eliot Rosewater

(31,121 posts)
138. Get away from me with this personal attack
Wed Nov 17, 2021, 10:11 PM
Nov 2021

You clearly cant discuss this matter without insulting me so do not respond to me ever again on this board.

 

elevator

(415 posts)
142. It has been his M.O. in most of his posts.
Thu Nov 18, 2021, 01:37 AM
Nov 2021

A dismissive attitude and name calling are sound indicators of a character type that has to belittle to feel superior.

highplainsdem

(49,034 posts)
117. I find it impossible to believe that there aren't countless intelligent alien life forms
Wed Nov 17, 2021, 01:22 PM
Nov 2021

with civilizations more advanced than ours.

And we'd have about as good a chance of understanding what types of travel are possible or impossible for them as our Paleolithic ancestors would have had of understanding our 21st century abilities.

Eliot Rosewater

(31,121 posts)
124. Great point! And this does NOT mean they have visited us, but for ANYONE
Wed Nov 17, 2021, 02:52 PM
Nov 2021

to blanketly say they haven't, is just being ignorant.

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